Can I share some thoughts on academic scholarships and SAT scores?

[Lisa R.]

I've been reading the posts on PSAT and SAT scores in relation to college scholarships. I'd like to share some thoughts and share our experience.

 

First, my dd received an academic scholarship that pays almost all of her tuition. We do not qualify for any need based aid. She earned this by having a good SAT score (1360) and a good gpa (3.9). She was accepted into every college she applied. Every college offered her academic scholarships from $5500 to $10000. All of these scholarships were renewable if she made a good gpa--usually around 3.3. She applied to a state school and three private schools. Again, all these were based solely on SAT scores and grades. She was home schooled from kindergarten and up. Not a single school blinked at that or questioned her transcript created with Excel.

 

Here are ways I've learned to get a relatively inexpensive college education.

 

Number 1: Jack up the SAT score. Don't waste time studying for this yourself. Remember this: the SAT and PSAT tests are tricky tests. They are trying to trick you. If you don't understand that, you won't do well. Many people don't understand this and refer to themselves or their children as poor test takers. If you can crack their system, take lots of practice SAT tests, your score will go up. Taking lots of SAT tests also reduced tet anxiety. However, this takes time and a good SAT preparation program. My dd went to a great local SAT prep center. She made a very average score on her first, baseline practice test at the center. Then she started taking their classes. Her score went up 100-200 points in the first week. It climbed slowly, but surely after that.

 

Number 2: If you find a good SAT prep center, don't balk at the price. Our $1200 investment will quadruple itself before her first year of college is completed . If she earns a 3.3 gpa, her tuition will be paid for four years. Really, it may be the best financial investments we've ever made. Just make sure it is a good school that produces good results.

 

Number 3: Preparation for SAT and PSAT should start, at least, the summer before their junior year.

 

Number 3: Make sure your kids know that they have to earn good grades on all their high school courses. If they do, they could translate into huge financial gain. Of course, they need to be prepared far before high school for this. They need to be well prepared academically so they can succeed. It is difficult to convey these long term benefits to kids, but try, try, try. Make sure they know about the financial rewards waiting if they keep their grades up.

 

Number 4: Certain colleges do not offer academic scholarships. Some offer very limited academic scholarships. If you do not qualify for need based aid, academic scholarships are the only way to shrink the college bill. Ivy league schools, Wheaton and others do not offer academic scholarships because almost all their students deserve them. Those schools primarily offer need based aid. If you don't qualify for this, you're paying the whole bill. While I would've loved to see my dd at one of those schools, I simply couldn't justify the price. She couldn't either. If you want to make the college experience affordable, don't apply to schools that don't offer academic scholarships. They may be great schools, but you or your child will be saddled with debt when they graduate.

 

College can be expensive, but it doesn't have to be. There are great schools out there who will throw thousands of dollars at your child with a good gpa and a good SAT score.

 

Just thought I'd share.

[Michelle in MO]

First, my dd received an academic scholarship that pays almost all of her tuition. We do not qualify for any need based aid. She earned this by having a good SAT score (1360) and a good gpa (3.9).

 

From your post, I'm wondering when your dd took the SAT test? I don't know what year the SAT scores changed, but they used to be scaled up to 1600; I think it was divided up evenly between the math and verbal portions (800 each). Now the scores are scaled up to 2400.

 

Did you dd take the SAT back when it was still scaled up to 1600? If so, how would this translate into the current scale being used?

 

Thanks for sharing this good info.!

[Lisa R.]

I only included the reading and math score because that's what all the colleges wanted, except Hillsdale.

 

Her total score was 1960 when you include the writing section.

 

Currently, she is a college freshman.

[Gwen in VA]

I totally agree that a good SAT score is a plus. However, it isn't the whole story.

 

Some schools make a lot of their decision on admissions and merit aid based on numbers, but many school look at the individual very closely and only use the scores to "corroborate" their impression of the student. (Words from a Duke admissions counselor).

 

My dd got a 2400 on the SAT! Perfect score. She did NOT get into MIT or Princeton! So great SAT scores alone guarantee nothing! She did end up with a lot of merit aid, but two of the schools made it clear that the aid was for her extracurricular accomplishments in addition to her academics.

 

SAT scores are important, but SAT scores are only part of the student's record, and many colleges will look at a student's record fairly holistically.

[Laurie4b]

Congratulations to your dd and to you on that SAT score. Do you have any tips for the rest of us? What did you to prepare specifically for the test?

[Kareni]

Lisa,

 

Thanks for sharing. It's good to hear how your daughter is thriving.

 

My teen also took the SAT and got a similar total score on the Critical Reading and Math sections. She did this without the use of a SAT preparation center. She read a lot, did the The Official SAT Question of the Day™, did several practice tests, and went through the Chalkdust SAT Math Review. I hope that her college application process goes as smoothly as your daughter's did.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Gwen in VA]

Thanks for the congratulations. She got the scores 2 1/2 years ago, so it's old news here -- I have just been rather reluctant to share her scores up until now.

 

She only took them once. She figured that since scores usually improve each time a student takes the exam, then she should do many practice exams.

 

She did:

 

1) number2.com Not an amazing program, but easy to run through and FREE.

 

2) SAT question of the day from the College Board website. (Have the questions emailed to your child!)

 

3) Rocket Revolution. Excellent SAT study guide.

 

4) She worked through several "real" SAT exams, one section per day. Then a few weeks before the "real" SAT she sat down and did one whole exam in one day -- just to see how it felt.

 

5) We had dd brainstorm topics for the essay. She did read one or two biographies of people who could be used for many different topics (FDR, Helen Keller, etc.) and she read a few "kiddie" science books about fascinating discoveries just to help give her more fodder for the essay.

 

6) She wrote a few practice essays. I never looked at them -- but she said writing them did help her to figure out how to budget her time on the essay.

 

Best wishes!

[Osmosis Mom]

but did even better on the ACT without any outside help. Her biggest plus was the Rocket Revolution, but she studied very casually. Her strenghts were her writing skills and vocab. She got a higher score on both exams after she strenghtened her math, but her math was still the lowest.

 

So, it can be done if you are generally a strong student without too much study!

 

Anyways, congrats to your dd, of course.

[Lisa R.]

I suppose I came off a bit too strongly when I suggested that you must take an outside SAT prep course. There are many students who are able to do a self study program and do very well. In addition, there are a lucky few who score very well without preparation of any kind.

 

I guess if you take a practice test and have an average score, it is more economical to try it on your own. However, for many students, a good test preparation program can increase a score 200, 300 points or more. This may not be possible on their own. While I can't say anything for certain, I doubt that my dd would've achieved her score working through an SAT program on her own.

 

Also, my post referred only to receiving academic scholarships. I'm not talking about using good test scores and grades with regard to admission into a top tier school. I agree that these alone will not be enough to gain admission to those schools as they will be up against applicants with similar scores and grades.

 

There are many who have scores much higher than dd. However, I'm sharing our experiences to show that even with her scores, she was able to receive a good chunk of money for her efforts.

 

Congrats to all of your kids who had those great scores.

[coopers5]

Lisa,

Please, say more about colleges that will "throw thousands of dollars" at our students for good GPAs and good test scores. I am interested to know what places you tried for.

I actually have one child in college (he's at a private Christian school, covered through an AF ROTC scholarship he was able to get) and my oldest just graduated from another Christian school and did receive quite a bit for academics there.

My third, and last, child has high aspirations and with good cause because of a super high SAT score she has already achieved, though just entering her junior year. I really would like to know a lot more about schools that are giving money, GOOD money, for academics. And schools that are unashamedly receptive to homeschooled students, as well. One of the schools we were really looking at was Wheaton. But I know it is high and I wanted to know what others' experiences were there with scholarships.

Your post wasn't very encouraging on that pick. What other smaller schools, and/or Christian, did you guys try for?

 

Please, share more, if you would.

 

Sincerely,

Jo

[LibraryLover]

Do not take the PSAT in MA.

 

That's all I can say. (Of course you have to take the test in the state in which you live, so I am being sarcastic. ;))

 

States are ranked, and MA student scores have to be higher to qualify for Merit recognition.

[LibraryLover]

I totally agree that a good SAT score is a plus. However, it isn't the whole story.

 

Some schools make a lot of their decision on admissions and merit aid based on numbers, but many school look at the individual very closely and only use the scores to "corroborate" their impression of the student. (Words from a Duke admissions counselor).

 

My dd got a 2400 on the SAT! Perfect score. She did NOT get into MIT or Princeton! So great SAT scores alone guarantee nothing! She did end up with a lot of merit aid, but two of the schools made it clear that the aid was for her extracurricular accomplishments in addition to her academics.

 

SAT scores are important, but SAT scores are only part of the student's record, and many colleges will look at a student's record fairly holistically.

 

 

We know several kids who got 800's and perfect scores on the writing portion and who did not get into select-type schools. Perfect SAT scores are a dime a dozen at certain schools. My oldest got 770 on Math and 790 on Verbal, and a perfect writing score. (We didn't do *outside* test prep). I can't say that the money came rolling in. lol

 

It simply did not.

[Lisa R.]

I sent you a pm.

[74Heaven]

We know several kids who got 800's and perfect scores on the writing portion and who did not get into select-type schools. Perfect SAT scores are a dime a dozen at certain schools. My oldest got 770 on Math and 790 on Verbal, and a perfect writing score. (We didn't do *outside* test prep). I can't say that the money came rolling in. lol

 

It simply did not.

 

I don't know much about SAT scores and scholarships but I thought a student would have to be in or near the 2100-2400 SAT range for academic scholarships. I thought such a student would also need a high '3.5-4.0 plus' gpa as well.

 

Anyone want to enlighten me..... What type of academic scholarship aid would accompany a 3.5 and maybe 1400 math/verbal SAT score.... I didn't realize this score was high enough to qualify for academic scholarships.......

 

lisaj, mom to 5 - I'm not debating, I just had no idea...

[MomsintheGarden]

I totally agree that a good SAT score is a plus. However, it isn't the whole story.

 

My dd got a 2400 on the SAT! Perfect score. She did NOT get into MIT or Princeton! So great SAT scores alone guarantee nothing! She did end up with a lot of merit aid, but two of the schools made it clear that the aid was for her extracurricular accomplishments in addition to her academics.

 

SAT scores are important, but SAT scores are only part of the student's record, and many colleges will look at a student's record fairly holistically.

 

 

Gwen,

 

I saw in another one of your posts that your dd was a NM scholar. Could you please elaborate on her activities? We're about to embark on the NM process this fall and I'd love some hints on the application process.

 

Thanks so much!

Gardenmom

[MomsintheGarden]

Here are ways I've learned to get a relatively inexpensive college education.

 

Number 2: If you find a good SAT prep center, don't balk at the price. Our $1200 investment will quadruple itself before her first year of college is completed . If she earns a 3.3 gpa, her tuition will be paid for four years. Really, it may be the best financial investments we've ever made. Just make sure it is a good school that produces good results.

 

Number 3: Preparation for SAT and PSAT should start, at least, the summer before their junior year.

 

Number 4: Certain colleges do not offer academic scholarships. Some offer very limited academic scholarships. If you do not qualify for need based aid, academic scholarships are the only way to shrink the college bill. Ivy league schools, Wheaton and others do not offer academic scholarships because almost all their students deserve them. Those schools primarily offer need based aid. If you don't qualify for this, you're paying the whole bill. While I would've loved to see my dd at one of those schools, I simply couldn't justify the price. She couldn't either. If you want to make the college experience affordable, don't apply to schools that don't offer academic scholarships. They may be great schools, but you or your child will be saddled with debt when they graduate.

 

 

Lisa,

 

:iagree:With #s 3 & 4. This has been our experience as well. We have learned a lot about what we want for our dd's education by going through this process. Basically, we decided we did not want her to go to an Ivy League school because:

1. All the Ivy's we've gotten literature from (and we've heard most of them because of her PSAT score) seem to be ideologically different from our family's beliefs.

2. The Ivy's (and Wheaton) offer little any merit aid. We probably would only qualify for a little, but we have a bunch of kiddo's to put through college. We've come to the conclusion that it is better for our dd to go to a lesser known school that really wants her, that is more in line with our beliefs, and that will give her a lot of scholarship money, than to pay almost full-fare at an expensive school.

 

Our dd was successful in PSAT and SAT self-study. That is her experience - some students do better in a testing center situation. Besides using an academically rigorous program through all of her school years, she:

1. Studied the McGraw-Hill prep guides for both tests (two books).

2. Took the test in the PSAT book given by the College Board.

3. Did SAT question of the day.

4. Used the IEW SAT essay prep course.

 

It is worth checking out a school's merit aid before applying!

 

GardenMom

Edited August 1, 2009 by MomsintheGarden
Typo!

[Janet in WA]

Helpful advice. But I have another piece of advice to add: Don't take just the SAT if there's any chance the ACT scores will be accepted and/or useful. Our sons took both the SAT and ACT, and that's what we'd do again if we had the choice. The ACT is NOT tricky like the SAT -- it's a straightforward test of the student's knowledge, and a much better fit for some students. One of our sons' scores on the SAT and ACT were comparable. The other scored much higher on the ACT, and it was those ACT scores that earned him scholarship money. Also the ACT subscores allowed him to opt out of placement testing for related college courses.

[kate in seattle]

I read somewhere that ACT scores are accepted by every college in America now. This is vastly different from my college application days 30+ years ago, when the SAT dominated and generally only second tier schools accepted the ACT.

 

Stellar test scores and an excellent GPA will never hurt a student, but it is rarely ALL that is necessary. And rarely will it get you a 'free ride'. though many private schools have generous academic scholarships that will bring the price of that expensive school. Of course, half of 40K is still 20k.

[mominbc]

I have a son who wants to go to music school in the US (we are in Canada) so I would love to know what you put in your portfolio for a highschool transcript - what are they looking for? :confused::confused:

 

Thanks for the help!!

[Janet in WA]

 

I read somewhere that ACT scores are accepted by every college in America now. This is vastly different from my college application days 30+ years ago, when the SAT dominated and generally only second tier schools accepted the ACT.

There was a time that it depended on the region of the country. When I applied to colleges in the South in the mid 70's, the ACT was the preferred test. However, I took both the SAT and ACT. At that time, prepping for those tests was pretty much unheard of. The result, for me, was that I scored very well on the SAT, but VERY VERY well on the ACT (though I didn't really recognize the correlation of the scores at that time). I'm sure the reason for my not scoring as well on the SAT was that I didn't learn to "play the game" that one must know how to play in order to master the SAT. I determined that my sons would not have that handicap when they took the SAT, but I also had no intention of putting all our eggs in one basket.

[Storm Bay]

Do not take the PSAT in MA.

 

That's all I can say. (Of course you have to take the test in the state in which you live, so I am being sarcastic. ;))

 

States are ranked, and MA student scores have to be higher to qualify for Merit recognition.

 

 

How much higher? Where do you find the kind of scores you need for merit aid? This is important for my dd, who wants to get scholarships, etc.

[Brenda in MA]

How much higher? Where do you find the kind of scores you need for merit aid? This is important for my dd, who wants to get scholarships, etc.

 

Karin,

 

Here is a link to a thread at college confidential where they list the PSAT score cut-offs required to gain National Merit Semi-finalist in each state. The score is the sum of the scores from the reading, writing, and math sections.

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-act-tests-test-preparation/554901-psat-cutoff-scores-2008-national-merit-semifinalists-h-s-09-a.html

 

If you study this list, you will see that the scores required by a student in MA are the highest of any state (and tied with DC). This list just applies for the National Merit Scholarship program, not merit aid in general.

 

To get an idea of how much merit aid a school gives out, look at this website:

 

http://www.collegedata.com/

 

Click on "college match", then select the college you're interested in and hit enter. Click on that school, and when the school's main page comes up, scroll down and click on "more money matters". Scroll down and look at merit-based gifts and see what % of the students get these and the average amount.

 

As a general rule, if they give out merit awards to 10% of the students, then your student needs to be in the top 10% of applicants to get one. If you look at SAT & ACT score ranges also from the College Data website, you can get an idea of where your student stands with respect to the other applicants.

 

Some schools also have interviews for merit scholarships, etc., so it's best to check with the individual schools and see what they offer and what criteria they use to select the recipients.

 

HTH,

Brenda

Edited August 3, 2009 by Brenda in MA

[Miss Marple]

and a much better fit for some students

 

I think some will score better on the ACT and others on the SAT. It just depends on the student which is why I would encourage all students to take both to determine which is better for them. My oldest took the ACT multiple times and reached a point he could not get beyond. Then he took the SAT. The ACT/SAT correlation data placed his ACT correlated score higher than any of the ACT scores he received from taking the actual ACT test. That meant more $$$ for him. It bumped him up into a higher scholarship level. All of the schools we looked at accepted the ACT or the correlated ACT scores from an SAT exam. And it's nice that the SAT can now be taken (like the ACT) multiple times without having to submit all scores.

[creekland]

Karin,

 

To get an idea of how much merit aid a school gives out, look at this website:

 

http://www.collegedata.com/

 

Click on "college match", then select the college you're interested in and hit enter. Click on that school, and when the school's main page comes up, scroll down and click on "more money matters". Scroll down and look at merit-based gifts and see what % of the students get these and the average amount.

 

HTH,

Brenda

 

Thanks for sharing that website! Interestingly enough, when I put in the three colleges on our short list, the 'end cost' for each three ends up roughly the same with a $4000 advantage to my son's current top choice - which is not the least expensive to start with. This is all on theory, of course. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out later.

[danielle]

I think there are really two arguments here: how to get into a college, and how to get into the Ivies or Ivy-like schools.

 

If you're aiming at a good state school, which usually will admit based on a formula, and your test scores and GPA are there, you're in. a good private college that's not flooded with super high SATs will also welcome you, and put you in the honors college, and probably give you money, because they're trying to become your first choice, and they have to compete for top students and scheme to attract them.

 

At the Ivies, just about everyone has top GPA and SAT/ACT scores so you have to be extraordinary to stand out. They don't need to give you money because they already have plenty of candidates that fit and don't need money, or will borrow to get there. Why? because the name will open doors for the rest of your life. It will be shorthand for smart and well educated. I was just as smart (or dumb) when I went to Northeastern Illinois University as when I went to the University of Chicago, but Northeastern has never opened any doors for me, told anyone anything about me, etc. I did get a full scholarship there.

 

If you want to be at the top of your profession, and have the choice, pick an Ivy, IMHO. Sure it doesn't guarantee, but if you go somewhere else, you'll be working twice as hard to establish yourself as if you went to an Ivy. Sure, Jerry Yang went to the University of Illinois, but everyone who has ever told me that proves my point--it's always said with amazement. And sure, Bill Gates didn't actually finish at Harvard, but everyone knows he went there.

 

I know it's a tough choice to decide between a full ride and a big honkin' loan. Sometimes I think you can justify the lesser school for undergrad as long as you are SURE you're going to do grad work at a great school. But if my dd had the opportunity to go to the Ivies, I would do anything I could, including selling the house, to enable her to go (expecting she would pay me back eventually). Now, I only have one kid, so I don't have to balance the needs of any others. Yes, graduating with a loan does narrow some choices--you can't take a year off and travel or volunteer. However, these loans can usually be deferred through grad school. But the loan will be paid off, and the degree, network/connections, and prestige will be with you for life. My tuition at the Univ. of Chicago at the time was $3,600. I got full tuition scholarships there, and my second grad year I also got living aid, so the 2nd year was a free ride. However, between college and living expenses the first year, I graduated owing $10,000. (Add another 0 to all those numbers for today's equivalents!) I had it all paid off by 30 years old.

 

Since I've been to both schools, I can also compare something else. While I had some stellar professors at Northeastern, they were the exception. I had some crumb buns at the U. of C., but they were the exception. The quality of instruction, the rigor (I took some undergrad courses around campus, so not just grad), the expectations and the rest of the student body were light years higher. Nobody in remedial work at the U. of C. The other benefit is that top schools attract top programs and speakers. Not all that many Nobel prize or National Book Award winners or heads of major countries come to speak at Northeastern Illinois, but that was relatively common at U. of C.

 

If you want to give yourself a nervous breakdown, look at the books by Elizabeth Wissner Gross--she's good, but scary. For a calmer approach on how to stand out, take a look at Cal Newport's blog (Study Hacks) or his books.

 

Please don't flame. If you are at peace with your choice, then it was the right one. But for those still trying to decide, I agree there's a lot to consider. I won't have a nervous breakdown if dd doesn't end up at an "Ivy", but we're working to give her the best chance to do so. After all, as hsers we've worked her whole life to give her an extraordinary education.

Danielle

[creekland]

Please don't flame. If you are at peace with your choice, then it was the right one. But for those still trying to decide, I agree there's a lot to consider.

 

I'm certainly not going to flame. I think you've brought up a very valid point - that one needs to figure out their goal with higher education. For our family, we are rather 'anti' Ivy prestige, but I definitely agree with the differences you've posted, so one should consider their goals.

 

For us, I'm looking for the best program for each of my sons at an affordable cost and at a place where they feel comfortable.

 

In my opinion, I want a school where my sons are in the top third (or so) of the freshman profile - and be known for the specific major they want. I know of others who want their kids to be in the bottom quarter and go off name of school only assuming the name equals the quality of all programs. There could potentially be good reasons for either, so we all need to make up our own minds - and be content with our choices.

[TravelingChris]

We have experienced both worlds. DH and I both went to the U of C. We sent our son to Hillsdale where he got a rigirous education and great spekers like we had. He is now at George Mason University and the classes aren't as well taught. HIs GPA is up though and now he will most likely be able to get into grad school. SInce he wants to be a professor, that is the most imprtant thing. (He didn't switch because of that, he had medical issues).

 

Now with our older dd, she also wants to go to a smaller school. We will be balancing school environment with things like law school acceptance rates. Our final one is likely to go to an engineering school or program and there we will look for rigor and prestige.

 

Has going to a prestigious college helped my husband and I? Yes and no. It gave us a better education (and we know this by comparing our education with others we met in grad school or work environments). Did it help with advancement? I don't think so. IN my case, the only reason I got into one job I had was because I also had my master's and that GPA counted. My GPA at UofC was too low (over a 3 but not high enough compared to grade inflated schools). I also don't think it helped my husband since he is in the military and most of the time, the promotion boards don't see where you went to school.

 

We are very fortunate since we only marginally need to think about costs when choosing a school for our next child since dh has transferred his GI bill benefits to her. We figure that number three as a female desiring to study engineering may be more likely to get scholarships and anyway, we should have more income by the time she goes.

[Storm Bay]

Has going to a prestigious college helped my husband and I? Yes and no. It gave us a better education (and we know this by comparing our education with others we met in grad school or work environments). .

 

 

From what I've read, this isn't a hard and fast rule. The key is to do your research. In the book Forty Colleges that Make a Difference you can find out some lesser known, easier to get into schools that can equal or beat the top tier schools (and that includes the Ivies).

 

As for opening doors, that really depends. I can think of several family members who did not go to prestigious universities who have had big opportunities come their way (e.g. huge research grants for my uncle, including a Terry Fox grant, which is a million dollar grant for cancer research given each year in Canada--he got one the very first year they were ever given.) My dad was in the very first class ever of a very non-famous med school and he has been offered at least one very prestigious job (he didn't apply for it and ended up turning it down) that you would think would be offered to Ivy Leaguers because he was (still is) top notch in his field and had a better ability to get along than most surgeons. But he's not famous. Etc, etc.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Karin

[Storm Bay]

Karin,

 

 

 

Some schools also have interviews for merit scholarships, etc., so it's best to check with the individual schools and see what they offer and what criteria they use to select the recipients.

 

HTH,

Brenda

 

 

Thanks for the entire post (shortened to save space here)!

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

I have absolutely nothing to add to this discussion as we are in the gathering and learning phase, but it's so great to get insights and thoughts from people who have been-there, done-that.

 

Thanks to everyone who is sharing. I really appreciate it.

[TravelingChris]

Actually I wanted to add, it wasn't that it was a prestigious school that gave us the better education. It was that it was a better school. Not better than any other, but definitely a better education that at most state schools or military academies. I am well aware that many small liberal arts schools give an excellent education too which is why I considered and chose one for my son and will be considering others for my older daughter.

[Storm Bay]

Actually I wanted to add, it wasn't that it was a prestigious school that gave us the better education. It was that it was a better school. Not better than any other, but definitely a better education that at most state schools or military academies. I am well aware that many small liberal arts schools give an excellent education too which is why I considered and chose one for my son and will be considering others for my older daughter.

 

 

Thanks. Research is the key. In our house, the goal is to get an education without the burden of debt. Therefore, we're going to look into good CC and state schools as well as good private schools. CC & state colleges are Plan B. Going to school in Canada is also in the Plan B/C area as our dc are dual citizens.

 

The most dh and I will be able to do, based on how things are now, will be do house and feed them if they live at home during their college years. There are private and state schools within driving distance from us, and our dc will eventually need to get part time and/or summer jobs. I'm not opposed to a year in between for them to live at home, work, save and then go to school, but my eldest definitely wants to shoot for scholarships, merit awards, etc. She has the academic potential to get at least something, but needs to develop the work ethic and to learn to take timed tests again.

[hose]

This thread sparked a memory of an article that I read this spring in the WSJ. It's an interesting read about SAT prep.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124278685697537839.html

[plansrme]

This thread sparked a memory of an article that I read this spring in the WSJ. It's an interesting read about SAT prep.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124278685697537839.html

 

This is an interesting article and confirms what I suspected from our very small bit of exposure to the world of SAT prep. My daughter (age 11) took an SAT subject test recently, mostly on a lark, with minimal preparation. A few weeks before the test, she worked through a sample test in the Barron's test prep book, and we were both so discouraged by the results that we nearly didn't have her do the test. She got maybe 30 percent of the questions right and was in tears--this daughter never cries. She put the book away, stopped studying completely and only decided the night before the test to go through with it. She ended up scoring in the 62nd percentile, which wasn't half bad and was far higher than the Barron's book had led us to believe she would do. If she'd continued with the book's program of study, we might have attributed that "increase" to the book.

 

This is only one teeny example, but it does line up with the experience of the students profiled in the WSJ article.

 

Terri

[sandellie4]

:iagree:

 

I think there are really two arguments here: how to get into a college, and how to get into the Ivies or Ivy-like schools.

 

If you're aiming at a good state school, which usually will admit based on a formula, and your test scores and GPA are there, you're in. a good private college that's not flooded with super high SATs will also welcome you, and put you in the honors college, and probably give you money, because they're trying to become your first choice, and they have to compete for top students and scheme to attract them.

 

At the Ivies, just about everyone has top GPA and SAT/ACT scores so you have to be extraordinary to stand out. They don't need to give you money because they already have plenty of candidates that fit and don't need money, or will borrow to get there. Why? because the name will open doors for the rest of your life. It will be shorthand for smart and well educated. I was just as smart (or dumb) when I went to Northeastern Illinois University as when I went to the University of Chicago, but Northeastern has never opened any doors for me, told anyone anything about me, etc. I did get a full scholarship there.

 

If you want to be at the top of your profession, and have the choice, pick an Ivy, IMHO. Sure it doesn't guarantee, but if you go somewhere else, you'll be working twice as hard to establish yourself as if you went to an Ivy. Sure, Jerry Yang went to the University of Illinois, but everyone who has ever told me that proves my point--it's always said with amazement. And sure, Bill Gates didn't actually finish at Harvard, but everyone knows he went there.

 

I know it's a tough choice to decide between a full ride and a big honkin' loan. Sometimes I think you can justify the lesser school for undergrad as long as you are SURE you're going to do grad work at a great school. But if my dd had the opportunity to go to the Ivies, I would do anything I could, including selling the house, to enable her to go (expecting she would pay me back eventually). Now, I only have one kid, so I don't have to balance the needs of any others. Yes, graduating with a loan does narrow some choices--you can't take a year off and travel or volunteer. However, these loans can usually be deferred through grad school. But the loan will be paid off, and the degree, network/connections, and prestige will be with you for life. My tuition at the Univ. of Chicago at the time was $3,600. I got full tuition scholarships there, and my second grad year I also got living aid, so the 2nd year was a free ride. However, between college and living expenses the first year, I graduated owing $10,000. (Add another 0 to all those numbers for today's equivalents!) I had it all paid off by 30 years old.

 

Since I've been to both schools, I can also compare something else. While I had some stellar professors at Northeastern, they were the exception. I had some crumb buns at the U. of C., but they were the exception. The quality of instruction, the rigor (I took some undergrad courses around campus, so not just grad), the expectations and the rest of the student body were light years higher. Nobody in remedial work at the U. of C. The other benefit is that top schools attract top programs and speakers. Not all that many Nobel prize or National Book Award winners or heads of major countries come to speak at Northeastern Illinois, but that was relatively common at U. of C.

 

If you want to give yourself a nervous breakdown, look at the books by Elizabeth Wissner Gross--she's good, but scary. For a calmer approach on how to stand out, take a look at Cal Newport's blog (Study Hacks) or his books.

 

Please don't flame. If you are at peace with your choice, then it was the right one. But for those still trying to decide, I agree there's a lot to consider. I won't have a nervous breakdown if dd doesn't end up at an "Ivy", but we're working to give her the best chance to do so. After all, as hsers we've worked her whole life to give her an extraordinary education.

Danielle

[Therese]

 

Number 4: Certain colleges do not offer academic scholarships. Some offer very limited academic scholarships. If you do not qualify for need based aid, academic scholarships are the only way to shrink the college bill. Ivy league schools, Wheaton and others do not offer academic scholarships because almost all their students deserve them. Those schools primarily offer need based aid. If you don't qualify for this, you're paying the whole bill. While I would've loved to see my dd at one of those schools, I simply couldn't justify the price.

 

I agree with much of what you said. However, it is important to know what your child's goal is in going to college. Is it to obtain knowledge in order to get a well-paying job? Or is it to obtain a true education in order to live well? Some of the schools that offer no merit-based aid may be worth the cost because they offer an education in the classical sense of the word.

 

My son, who earned a perfect score on the SAT chose to go to one of those schools even though he knew it meant going into debt and that he would have been able to attend most other schools at no cost. We did qualify for some need-based aid in the form of grants and he was on work study all four years, so that helped out. Also, the school he attended limits the amount of student loans so his debt after four years is less than that of many other graduates of other schools.

 

Last year on his graduation day, I asked him whether he thought he'd made the right decision. Without hesitation he responded, "Absolutely!"

Edited August 6, 2009 by Therese
grammar

[SheWhoWaits]

Ivy league schools, Wheaton and others do not offer academic scholarships because almost all their students deserve them. Those schools primarily offer need based aid. If you don't qualify for this, you're paying the whole bill. While I would've loved to see my dd at one of those schools, I simply couldn't justify the price. She couldn't either. If you want to make the college experience affordable, don't apply to schools that don't offer academic scholarships. They may be great schools, but you or your child will be saddled with debt when they graduate.

I can't speak for Wheaton, but my ds is appyling to several Ivies, and most of them offer FREE tuition to students whose families make under $60,000 per year. So I'd say their criteria for need- based aid are very generous, and many families who don't think they can afford those schools actually can. If you make more than $60,000, I believe they don't even count the first $60,000 of your income when considering your need for financial aid.

[Gwen in VA]

Yes, graduating with a loan does narrow some choices--you can't take a year off and travel or volunteer. However, these loans can usually be deferred through grad school. But the loan will be paid off, and the degree, network/connections, and prestige will be with you for life. My tuition at the Univ. of Chicago at the time was $3,600. I got full tuition scholarships there, and my second grad year I also got living aid, so the 2nd year was a free ride. However, between college and living expenses the first year, I graduated owing $10,000. (Add another 0 to all those numbers for today's equivalents!) I had it all paid off by 30 years old.

 

I do have a quibble with your analysis. You say that you graduated with $10,000 worth of debt and you managed to pay it off by age 30. Your income to debt ratio, assuming you made $30K upon graduation, was 3:1 or thereabouts.

 

Nowadays kids are graduating with $50K and even $100K in debt, but their starting salary has not gone up by a commensurate amount. Using the average starting salary of a graduate with a BA in economics (~47K), the ratio of salary to debt would be about 1:1 or even 1:2. The difference between that ratio and your ratio is HUGE!

 

Also, students graduating with heavy debt loads these days took private loans in addition to the GSL's, so they are accumulating interest on some of their loans while in college and the interest will continue to accumulate during grad school. Students with heavy debt loads are not dealing exclusively with deferred interest loans.

 

We did qualify for some need-based aid in the form of grants and he was on work study all four years, so that helped out. Also, the school he attended limits the amount of student loans so his debt after four years is less than that of many other graduates of other schools. Last year on his graduation day, I asked him whether he thought he'd made the right decision. Without hesitation he responded, "Absolutely!"

 

Graduating $50K or $100K in debt is not something to be taken lightly. I am glad that your son isn't head-over-heels in debt, and I am glad that he thinks the debt is worth it. But I think that for those students with outrageous debt loads, the question of whether or not the debt is worth it can only be answered a decade or two later -- what options in life did the student have to forgo in order to pay the debt?

 

My kids applied to all kinds of colleges -- safeties and stretches, financial safeties and financial stretches. Certain colleges did surprise us with how generous their financial aid was, but certain other colleges gave us financial aid that was laughable. While I do think that students should apply to all kinds of schools because you never know what different colleges will provide financially, I think that blithely endorsing huge amounts of debt is foolhardy.

 

FYI, my ds turned down U Chicago to attend a USNWR top-20 LAC where he not only has everything paid for but also receives a stipend! We will always regard UChicago as "the road not taken" for him, and we regret that he couldn't attend, but the debt that he would have acquired had he gone there would have dictated the majority of his life decisions for several decades. Since both dh and I and several of our siblings attended "elite" schools, we had an idea of what we were turning down and are very very comfortable with the decision.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Gwen in VA

[Gwen in VA]

Some of the schools that offer no merit-based aid may be worth the cost because they offer an education in the classical sense of the word.

 

Different colleges offer different advantages and disadvantages, but I don't think that all expensive colleges offer an "education in the classical sense of the word" and all less expensive colleges don't.

 

My ds did not even apply to Harvard because after spending a lot of time looking at course offerings and at the distribution requirements (I forget Harvard's term for them) and the course requirements in his major, he didn't feel that he would get a well-rounded education there! He did apply to U Dallas, which is much less prestigious but which offers an amazing Western Civilization - based education.

[creekland]

Different colleges offer different advantages and disadvantages, but I don't think that all expensive colleges offer an "education in the classical sense of the word" and all less expensive colleges don't.

 

My ds did not even apply to Harvard because after spending a lot of time looking at course offerings and at the distribution requirements (I forget Harvard's term for them) and the course requirements in his major, he didn't feel that he would get a well-rounded education there! He did apply to U Dallas, which is much less prestigious but which offers an amazing Western Civilization - based education.

 

We have eliminated all but one college that was on our short list simply because when we visited (or otherwise looked more critically) they did not offer what my son wants for his education. He needs to go to a school that does offer exactly what he wants in order to have the best chance at a job in his field - and that doesn't include ANY Ivys (unless, perhaps, one considers Wheaton to be one).

 

My goal for my younguns further education is low debt and a good education toward getting them into the field they want. Prestige doesn't count a hoot in that aspect - other than maybe prestige within their planned major/field.

 

I think graduating with a ton of debt is a big mistake for anyone, but to each our own.

[danielle]

I do have a quibble with your analysis. You say that you graduated with $10,000 worth of debt and you managed to pay it off by age 30. Your income to debt ratio, assuming you made $30K upon graduation, was 3:1 or thereabouts.

 

Nowadays kids are graduating with $50K and even $100K in debt, but their starting salary has not gone up by a commensurate amount. Using the average starting salary of a graduate with a BA in economics (~47K), the ratio of salary to debt would be about 1:1 or even 1:2. The difference between that ratio and your ratio is HUGE!

 

I wish I'd made $30,000!! My first job out of grad school paid $12,500/year and I never made more than $27,000/year before I paid off that debt. So I think I was right in the ball park on your debt ratios.

 

I have yet to hear a Harvard-Yale-Stanford-Univ. of Chicago grad say, I wish I'd gone to a lesser school. BTW, the U of C and Columbia both have Great Books type core programs. My husband went to the University of Dallas. It is not the same thing.

Danielle

[TravelingChris]

There are over 3000 higher learning institutes in this country. Most of them are a good choice for someone. Most of them are a bad choice for most people. Our jobs are to find the good choices for our kids, eliminate the bad, and hopefully get something that is great for our child. Some of our kids have very special career goals or interests that make the narrowing choices easy. Some of us have kids who want to study something like biology or history which is available almost everywhere. If your child has a good idea of what they want to do or study, you have an easier time. Then you have to consider finances, inherent talent and test taking skills, and other limiting factors.

What was true in the past may not be true in the future with our economic problems. One very strong warning I will give you all is if you don't have any children yet in college, check out the financial aid calculators if you are going to need financial aid. If you are low income, it may be reassuring to you. If you are middle income, you may be in for the shock of your life. I know that we are extremely grateful that my next child is getting the GI bill. It is funny that we have to go on a payment plan to pay my son's nearly 6000 bill but are expected to be able to pay 44k for my daughter's expenses. As you all can guess, that is simply impossible with our current income and we just will pay her bill with GI bill and yellow ribbon program. That gives us six years to figure out how to pay for her sister's bill.

[Storm Bay]

I do have a quibble with your analysis. .

 

 

:iagree: This is an excellent post.

 

What I want to add here is that education is a lifetime process. If you can't afford an expensive college with a classical type education, there's absolutely no reason you can't pursue that on your own time later. You can start with WEM or the Harvard Classics. There is a lot to study just in those alone.

 

Think of Nathaniel Bowditch, who was self taught. Most of us aren't as brilliant as he was, but look what he did. There are others, of course.

[Kareni]

One very strong warning I will give you all is if you don't have any children yet in college, check out the financial aid calculators if you are going to need financial aid. If you are low income, it may be reassuring to you. If you are middle income, you may be in for the shock of your life.

 

I second this suggestion to try a financial aid calculator. However, I'd also add to take the EFC (estimated family contribution) value given with a large grain of salt.

 

For example, a FAFSA (Free Application for Federal Student Aid) calculator might give you a value of $2500 as the amount of your estimated family contribution. However, even public institutions might use that number and still require your child to take out an additional $5500 of federally subsidized and unsubsidized loans per year.

 

Private colleges also have unique interpretations of need. One private college to which my teen applied touted its program of capping loans at $4000 per year for students from families making less than $40,000 per year. Curiously, while we met that criterion, my teen was accepted and offered $7500 of loans. When I asked about the policy, I was told that her loans had been capped at $4000; however, since the federal estimation of her need was much higher than the college's that an extra $3500 in loans was being offered to her. "She doesn't need to take them if she doesn't wish to ...." Hmmph.

 

Also, if your child is in need of aid, I'd second the recommendation to have him or her apply widely. My daughter applied to ten colleges and received eight acceptances and one wait-list. The aid offered by the eight accepting colleges varied by over $10,000 in what she/we were expected to pay. Also, do not expect that a public university will necessarily be the least expensive option. In my daughter's case, the in-state public university's financial aid offer was solidly in the middle of the pack with at least three private and well regarded colleges offering far better aid.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Kareni]

My kids applied to all kinds of colleges -- safeties and stretches, financial safeties and financial stretches. Certain colleges did surprise us with how generous their financial aid was, but certain other colleges gave us financial aid that was laughable. While I do think that students should apply to all kinds of schools because you never know what different colleges will provide financially, I think that blithely endorsing huge amounts of debt is foolhardy.

 

 

This was very true for my daughter also. (And an excellent post overall, Gwen!)

 

Regards,

Kareni

[creekland]

There are over 3000 higher learning institutes in this country. Most of them are a good choice for someone. Most of them are a bad choice for most people. Our jobs are to find the good choices for our kids, eliminate the bad, and hopefully get something that is great for our child. Some of our kids have very special career goals or interests that make the narrowing choices easy. Some of us have kids who want to study something like biology or history which is available almost everywhere. If your child has a good idea of what they want to do or study, you have an easier time. Then you have to consider finances, inherent talent and test taking skills, and other limiting factors.

What was true in the past may not be true in the future with our economic problems. One very strong warning I will give you all is if you don't have any children yet in college, check out the financial aid calculators if you are going to need financial aid. If you are low income, it may be reassuring to you. If you are middle income, you may be in for the shock of your life. I know that we are extremely grateful that my next child is getting the GI bill. It is funny that we have to go on a payment plan to pay my son's nearly 6000 bill but are expected to be able to pay 44k for my daughter's expenses. As you all can guess, that is simply impossible with our current income and we just will pay her bill with GI bill and yellow ribbon program. That gives us six years to figure out how to pay for her sister's bill.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm going to have 3 going to college over the next 5 years. Paying for them all could be interesting. Finances will be an issue - esp with this economy if it continues on this path. However, we are still 'middle class.' My oldest is one of those that will need a specific school from a limited choice. My middle wants a highly competitive major (bio/med research). My youngest? Who knows yet. He's just starting 8th grade and will find his own niche. I'm learning a LOT about colleges and appreciate all who have shared their thoughts and experiences.

 

I don't know anyone who has regretted their education at my Alma mater (Va Tech), but it doesn't appear that any of my three will be going there as I had just assumed they would as they were growing up. It's simply not the right choice for them to get what they want out of higher education. None of mine have inherited their dad's love of engineering or my love of physics/math. They do have similar talent - just different career goals when using it. Hence, I'm on a whole new learning path... to best guide them to reach their goals.

[Therese]

:iagree:

 

I'm going to have 3 going to college over the next 5 years. Paying for them all could be interesting.

 

Colleges do give a break to parents who have more than one student in college at a time. The FAFSA kicks out an estimate of the amount the family is expected to contribute for college costs. That amount is not affected by the number of students - which means that the amount you are expected to pay is divided by the number of college students you have. Each additional student lowers the cost/student that a family pays. Of course, each school interprets the FAFSA numbers in their own way. Nevertheless, you won't have to pay as much for educating your three as you would if they went to college one at a time.