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gingersmom

Jim Bob and Michelle giving tv interview

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Well, I've had great experiences with ones in my area.  We've seen a family counselor, my oldest has seen both a psychologist and a psychiatrist, there were great resources from a social worker at our local hospital.  So are you really suggesting someone with a serious issue like a teen molesting little kids shouldn't seek out any professional mental health resources at all?  How do you justify that in your mind?

 

Not once did I say that.  My point is there aren't always a ton of mental health resources.

 

I don't want to give out more personal information than I already have, but lets just say I was not helped by resources.  My family was not helped.  Nothing in the end came of it, but people just agreeing not to press charges.  The options were to hope things got better without good help or to put someone in prison who had behaved in a certain way because of severe mental health issues.  Neither choice was good.  Neither was helpful.  Neither had much of an outcome anyone could feel good about. 

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The Duggar issue aside, this is what is supposed to happen and there are supposed to be options, but you know it just does not work as well as this.  Not at all in my experience.  And I have a lot of experience with this.  It's in fact very hard to find services for a lot of mental health issues. 

 

I don't know anything of the sort.  My experience has been exactly the opposite.  I cringe to think someone might read your posts and believe them and choose not to even try to get help for such serious issues. 

 

Go online, look of "psychiatrist" "Psychologist" "Licensed Family Therapist"

Call your local hospital and ask to speak to their social worker-ours handed us a thick stack of referral numbers and contact information for every specialist you could think of

Got to your GP or Ped

Go to the local walk in clinic-they'll give you names and contact information

Go to your medical insurance company's website

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I don't know anything of the sort.  My experience has been exactly the opposite.  I cringe to think someone might read your posts and believe them and choose not to even try to get help for such serious issues. 

 

Go online, look of "psychiatrist" "Psychologist" "Licensed Family Therapist"

Call your local hospital and ask to speak to their social worker-ours handed us a thick stack of referral numbers and contact information for every specialist you could think of

Got to your GP or Ped

Go to the local walk in clinic-they'll give you names and contact information

Go to your medical insurance company's website

 

I'm not saying don't try.  I'm saying there isn't enough out there.  I am saying I think something should be done about that fact.  Stop twisting what I'm saying.  Stop assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. I believe you, but I'm telling you this has not been my experience. 

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I'm not saying don't try.  I'm saying there isn't enough out there.  I am saying I think something should be done about that fact.  Stop twisting what I'm saying.  Stop assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. I believe you, but I'm telling you this has not been my experience. 

 

You're off topic and personalizing. You may need more time to emotionally recover from your own personal traumas before engaging in discussion about other people's personal traumas.  It's OK to take time to heal. 

 

This discussion is about the Duggars and what they should have done vs. what they actually did.  The point is they should've sought out licensed, professional medical help for Josh and for the girls.  They didn't do that. They should've kept him away from children.  They didn't do that.  So far, based on the information we have access to, they didn't even TRY to get the kind of help their kids needed. They needed licensed professionals to help with pedophilia and incest. That profound lack of judgment on their part is reason they've earned much deserved anger.  It's the mental health equivalent of parents using only prayer and essential oils to "help" their child who has cancer.

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Just to point out a quote from the transcript of the interview which is SO alarming:

 

"But as we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they've had similar things happen in their families."

 

I'll also add that Josh went to his parents (according to them) three different times and basically asked for help. That is really sad. They definitely failed him. Other than ATI construction boot camp (and possibly ALERT), he did not get help until children's services got involved after the Oprah call.

A lot of families HAVE had children who have been the victims of sexual abuse. It is not know that the quote is simply referring to sibling sexual abuse. But it is also true that a lot of families have children who are victims of sibling sexual abuse.

 

It is alarming because it is true...but it is not known the exact numbers or exact relationships of the victims and abusers they are referencing.

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I don't know anything of the sort.  My experience has been exactly the opposite.  I cringe to think someone might read your posts and believe them and choose not to even try to get help for such serious issues. 

 

Go online, look of "psychiatrist" "Psychologist" "Licensed Family Therapist"

Call your local hospital and ask to speak to their social worker-ours handed us a thick stack of referral numbers and contact information for every specialist you could think of

Got to your GP or Ped

Go to the local walk in clinic-they'll give you names and contact information

Go to your medical insurance company's website

 

This wasn't for molesting but just my psychiatric issues...  I called around NO ONE was taking new patients in a 2 hour radius.  Hubby played his doctor card, so someone did see me but it took 3 months...  So assuming it will be easy for someone to get in may be a false assumption.  I'm not saying they shouldn't try, but it probably won't be as easy as make a phone call and get it handled...

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I'm not saying don't try. I'm saying there isn't enough out there. I am saying I think something should be done about that fact. Stop twisting what I'm saying. Stop assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. I believe you, but I'm telling you this has not been my experience.

This is one of those things that is so different from place to place, even within a single state.

 

When you move into issues that require specialized training it gets even more iffy. Locally we have a ton of therapists, psychologists, and physcologists. Seriously can't swing a dead cat (or a live one for that matter) without hitting two or three.

 

The number that specialize in trauma, much smaller. The number that specialize in children's mental health, pretty small as well.

 

There are lots of good mental health practitioners out there. But it is not realistic to expect that the first call you make will yield someone who is truly comfortable and competent in the area of expertise you need or that they will be a good fit for you.

 

Mix in insurance coverage (or lack there of) and mental health can easily be a nightmare area under the US healthcare system.

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This is one of those things that is so different from place to place, even within a single state.

 

When you move into issues that require specialized training it gets even more iffy. Locally we have a ton of therapists, psychologists, and physcologists. Seriously can't swing a dead cat (or a live one for that matter) without hitting two or three.

 

The number that specialize in trauma, much smaller. The number that specialize in children's mental health, pretty small as well.

 

There are lots of good mental health practitioners out there. But it is not realistic to expect that the first call you make will yield someone who is truly comfortable and competent in the area of expertise you need or that they will be a good fit for you.

 

Mix in insurance coverage (or lack there of) and mental health can easily be a nightmare area under the US healthcare system.

 

YES!!!  This is the part Sparkly Unicorn was trying to get across, I think...  I could care less about the Duggers but when you are talking about the run of the mill family, I can see why they don't get the help they need.  First it would be hard to get out of denial and when you do, help would be really hard to find I'm afraid.

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This is one of those things that is so different from place to place, even within a single state.

 

When you move into issues that require specialized training it gets even more iffy. Locally we have a ton of therapists, psychologists, and physcologists. Seriously can't swing a dead cat (or a live one for that matter) without hitting two or three.

 

The number that specialize in trauma, much smaller. The number that specialize in children's mental health, pretty small as well.

 

There are lots of good mental health practitioners out there. But it is not realistic to expect that the first call you make will yield someone who is truly comfortable and competent in the area of expertise you need or that they will be a good fit for you.

 

Mix in insurance coverage (or lack there of) and mental health can easily be a nightmare area under the US healthcare system.

 

I've had several personal experiences of trying to find various helps and really going crazy trying just to find nothing in the end.  I really don't know why that was.  In some instances the best that could be done for my family members was to put them in a regular hospital where they'd just hang out for a few days to try to be stabilized on drugs.  The drugs were in quantities that basically just made them numb.  They could barely function.  And as a family member living with that, I was given almost no help whatsoever.

 

I always wished that I could change that somehow and I think about it, but I wouldn't know where to begin. 

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YES!!!  This is the part Sparkly Unicorn was trying to get across, I think...  I could care less about the Duggers but when you are talking about the run of the mill family, I can see why they don't get the help they need.  First it would be hard to get out of denial and when you do, help would be really hard to find I'm afraid.

 

Yeah they can't really use the excuse they didn't have the money, but that is also a massive stumbling block for a lot of people. 

 

My guess is a large number of the prison population are just people who couldn't afford any sort of help.  State mental hospitals aren't much better than prisons either.

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This wasn't for molesting but just my psychiatric issues...  I called around NO ONE was taking new patients in a 2 hour radius.  Hubby played his doctor card, so someone did see me but it took 3 months...  So assuming it will be easy for someone to get in may be a false assumption.  I'm not saying they shouldn't try, but it probably won't be as easy as make a phone call and get it handled...

 

Yep.  Sometimes that happens.  So you make the appointment for 3 months out.  That's not such hurdle when the person doing the molesting has been sent to a house with no children. Or, you make an appointment somewhere that involves a day of driving in a situation where you really need to talk to someone soon in addition to having the 3 month appointment nearby for follow up from there.

 

Sometimes it takes dozens and dozens of phone calls to get it handled.  My oldest (not a minor) called a few dozen places before she found someone taking new patients. I called a dozen family counselors before I found one available. I don't consider that "hard" or "not easy."  That's really not a big deal to me because getting someone mental health help is so important that driving a long way and making lots of phone calls are worth the effort.  If my child had a physical medical issue that required going a long way I'd do it. It took us months to get into my middle child's pediatric neurologist and her immunologist.

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Sorry if I contributed to the bogging down here! Sure, that is only one illustration, but it's another reason to guess that Michelle isn't a normal / healthy individual.

 

 

 

It would take a lot to convince me that she is 'normal' in any sense of the word. It's not just the blank stare, it's also the fact that she apparently never raises her voice (this is allegedly true off-camera as well). Sorry, but NOBODY, no matter how calm and collected a personality, can raise 19 kids without ever once losing their cool, unless there is something causing that flattened affect, whether that's a substance she takes or perhaps just the result of years of abuse from JB. And the puke-inducing husband-worship! It's not just that she is ultra conservative and believes that the husband should be head of the home. There are plenty of women who have that belief and are still intelligent, outspoken and assertive when they want to be. They believe their God put their husband in charge; they don't believe that their husband IS their God.

 

Then again, having said all that, I know nothing of the family personally. It's always possible that Michelle's persona, along with the whole darn thing, has been manufactured by them in consultation with the 'reality' television folks. I find it ironic and faintly amusing that so many people who express shock at how humans were exhibited in zoos and freak shows in the past are nevertheless so keen to engage with the kind of sordid circus enacted by people like the Duggars. (That was a comment, not a criticism. I plead guilty to bouts of inexplicable fascination about them.)

 

 

I have seen this in various ultra conservative groups that were very cult-like. In one group, I confronted the minister on the gossip in the community. Stepford Wives, EVERYONE knew when I came and went, when I had company, when I'd visited someone inside or outside the community, etc (a full year of this). The minister suggested I start taking anti-depressants to "help you conform". I know one of the local doctors (not part of the group, not American, did not plan to see him but I got shuffled to the gynecologist when I went in for a non-female issue and my doctor wasn't in that day) tried before to get me to take his prescription of Prozac. (I was there for severe neck pain and and blinding headache) It was just coming out about the suicide rate of those on Prozac, the zombie effect, and I wasn't depressed nor there for depression. His reason was that ALL women should be on Prozac. ALL the women in the community were on Prozac. He gives ALL his patients Prozac. Told me to trust him, that I would be back asking him for Prozac. God help any woman in Southern Illinois involved with a specific Mennonite group. Yep, my friends that had joined...were on Prozac. My SIL, I don't know, I know that girl is a chameleon and can be her own Prozac. Good Lord, after months of saying "something is not right here", we were out of there and others that had been raised Amish, but had joined, were leaving with us! We knew one family that was staying because the wife insisted. The husband was raised on the outside and wanted to leave. However, that woman (loved her) was a firestorm in and of herself and I believe she had something on all of the ministry, because she could shut them up when needed.

 

Yes, I firmly believe Michelle is on SOMETHING! Yes, my opinion. No, I have no facts or evidence. However, NO, I don't believe this is "just how she is". Not one bit. 

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KELLY: Like Huckabee said that. I know he’s a friend of your family. Michelle, let me ask you, because you were in the news for making a robo call that suggested transgender people might want to go into the bathrooms of girls — locker rooms of girls and that they may be child molesters. Folks have used that in the past week against you saying how could you unfairly, in their view, compare transgender people to child molesters, knowing what you know about Josh?

M. DUGGAR: I think that protecting young girls and not allowing young men or men in general to go into a girls’ locker room is just common sense.

KELLY: But this is different because you injected child molestation into it.

J.B. DUGGAR: I think you actually said pedophile, and a pedophile is an adult that preys on children. Josh was actually 14 and just turned 15 when he did what he did, and I think the legal definition was 16 and up for being an adult preying on a child. So he was a child preying on a child.

 

 

 

Translation: Our comments about gay and transgender people weren't hypocritical because we compared them using the term 'pedophile' and Josh is a child molester, not a pedophile, as he was 15 and you have to be 16 to be considered a pedophile.

 

Yeah, picture of humility right there. No, humble, remorseful people wouldn't go on a big hyped up interview with a sympathetic interviewer (obviously trying to salvage their show and put a positive PR spin on things) and drag the victims on there to insist it wasn't a big deal and Josh is a good man. You and I must have very different views of humility if you think the fact they did that interview shows humility.

 

 

 

You make this sound so easy though.  If one of my kids did this, I would of course do whatever it took to deal with the situation, but I do not have anywhere to send my kids.  And they are my kids so this would not be so simple.  He touched his siblings.  He did not rape his siblings.  Right?  Not saying that's better, but that is different. 

 

This is not you. These are people who have plenty of resources and the means to send their child outside of the house till he is able to live on his own, even if that means one parent going with him. I'm not sure how touching your single-digit kid sister's vagina as you read her a story on your lap in front of people would warrant lenience just because it isn't rape. He was clearly escalating. There seems to be some fishiness about the 17 year old thing that there is no solid information on? So, we have no way to know whether he just suddenly stopped even though getting caught didn't stop him but we do certainly know that he stayed in the house, the burden was placed on the girls, and the Duggar parents decided to add some more little girls to the house for good measure (and a ratings boost of course!)

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Nobody has ever had a thread glorifying the crimes of Roman Polanski or Woody Allen on these forums so far as I know. A few people wanted to give Bill Cosby the benefit of the doubt though...

 

There is no pattern of excusing 'liberal' crimes whilst condemning Christians for exactly the same thing.

 

There is no blanket condemnation of Christianity in any of the Duggar threads.

 

One member does, but most of us know to ignore it ;)

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Oh, I'm in albeto's fan club, so I'll have to disagree with you about 'condemnation'. Intelligent critique ? Sure :)

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"But as we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they've had similar things happen in their families."

 

0.o

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Oh, I'm in albeto's fan club, so I'll have to disagree with you about 'condemnation'. Intelligent critique ? Sure :)

 

Different points of perspective, maybe LOL!

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I certainly hope none of your children EVER make any mistakes... of course then YOU will probably forgive them, but NO one else should since YOU don't (if it is someone else's child... especially if you already hate the family anyway).

I can't freaking stand people who defend childhood sexual abuse. How gross. Remember when you were done with this forum? I do...

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Translation: Our comments about gay and transgender people weren't hypocritical because we compared them using the term 'pedophile' and Josh is a child molester, not a pedophile, as he was 15 and you have to be 16 to be considered a pedophile.

 

What I find most disgusting about this family is their hubris. They promote the idea that the creator of the universe personally guides them in the ways of faith and morals, and he can guide any one of us who seeks him sincerely. And yet, those people have similar experiences with molestation? 

 

 

3480468593_d4ed2b2df4.jpg

 

 

 

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I can't freaking stand people who defend childhood sexual abuse. How gross. Remember when you were done with this forum? I do...

#goodbyeisallaboutthebuttsnow

 

#badthreadsgonegood

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Were the older girls allowed to change the baby boys' diapers? Do we not think that boys can molest other boys as well, or was that not a concern?

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Were the older girls allowed to change the baby boys' diapers? 

Everyone knows that normal girls are not aroused by the sight of male genitalia, adult or otherwise, till marriage when the switch suddenly flips and they're at the ready all the time. Normal, red-blooded boys however can't even change a baby's diaper without being defrauded, tempted, and forced into stumbling against their will. Poor, poor totally non-pedophile boys.

 

 

 

Do we not think that boys can molest other boys as well, or was that not a concern?

 

Hey, I said totally normal, good boys and men get aroused by the sight of baby girl genitalia. Boys molesting boys is a disgusting perversion only perpetrated by the sickest individuals. Not because of the molesting part, naturally, but because of the same-sex component.

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Everyone knows that normal girls are not aroused by the sight of male genitalia, adult or otherwise, till marriage when the switch suddenly flips and they're at the ready all the time. Normal, red-blooded boys however can't even change a baby's diaper without being defrauded, tempted, and forced into stumbling against their will. Poor, poor totally non-pedophile boys.

 

And if, for some terrible reason, they've been infected by Feminism, there's ways to work through that, too. 

 

Christian Husbands – You don’t pay for the milk when you own the cow!

 

 

 

But once you have bought the cow, you ARE supposed to get the milk for free

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^ Please tell me that was a satirical website and that guy really thinks that way in the same way that Betty Bowers is the world's best Christian (ie he doesn't).

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And if, for some terrible reason, they've been infected by Feminism, there's ways to work through that, too. 

 

Christian Husbands – You don’t pay for the milk when you own the cow!

 

Holy crap....  This recommends the husband confronting his wife with scriptures about her withholding sex as manipulation   and then...

 

But should you still have relations with your wife after such a confrontation?

I believe the answer is yes, if she yields to you (even with the wrong attitude). When I first had to confront my wife with these types of issues, I would confront her, and then just leave the sex to happen another night, because after all, I like most men don’t prefer to have sex with my wife when she acts grumpy about it.

But I realized that the sex still needs to occur, that sex is not about being in the mood, and it is not about feelings, it is about doing what is right.

 

I don't agree with sex as manipulation, and it's fine to have a conversation about it and maybe why it is happening, but this last part made me ill.... You need to "do what is right"!  Force your wife to have sex when she is not in the mood to ensure your authority!  

We follow a loving headship model in our family and if this EVER happened I would be out the door or someone would be physically injured and it wouldn't be me... There would be no more sex in my house, not because of manipulation but because this kind of attitude would make it impossible for me to even LOOK at that person with affection.

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OMG I got so mad I didn't even get to this part...

 

Can my Christian wife ever say no to my sexual advances?

This is the logical question you as a Christian husband (or engaged man) might ask after everything we have just looked at. The answer to this question is a Christian wife should never give her husband a flat no, BUT she can humbly and gently ask for a delay. There may be legitimate physical or other issues that might prompt your wife to ask you for a delay.  

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Oh, I'm in albeto's fan club, so I'll have to disagree with you about 'condemnation'. Intelligent critique ? Sure :)

 

A thoughtful critique leads to condemnation of damaging programs, I think. I condemn the programming of Bill Gothard and I'm not shy about it. Because the Duggars promote this very programming to an audience of some 300+ million Americans, I think more of us should condemn it. It's dangerous, as most of us can see. 

 

If duck presumes condemnation about the Duggars' application of xianity somehow translates to all applications of xianity, she's simplified the point so much she's missed it. It wouldn't be the first time, won't likely be the last, if we can expect trends to continue. It does suggest that people are getting more and more frustrated as their traditionally honored privileges are called out as unjustified and no longer tolerable. I don't mind putting an end to unjustified, intolerable expectations. I don't think we can expect to do that without condemning them for some reason. And reason, I think, we have aplenty.

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barf

 

Holy crap....  This recommends the husband confronting his wife with scriptures about her withholding sex as manipulation   and then...

 

But should you still have relations with your wife after such a confrontation?

I believe the answer is yes, if she yields to you (even with the wrong attitude). When I first had to confront my wife with these types of issues, I would confront her, and then just leave the sex to happen another night, because after all, I like most men don’t prefer to have sex with my wife when she acts grumpy about it.

But I realized that the sex still needs to occur, that sex is not about being in the mood, and it is not about feelings, it is about doing what is right.

 

I don't agree with sex as manipulation, and it's fine to have a conversation about it and maybe why it is happening, but this last part made me ill.... You need to "do what is right"!  Force your wife to have sex when she is not in the mood to ensure your authority!  

We follow a loving headship model in our family and if this EVER happened I would be out the door or someone would be physically injured and it wouldn't be me... There would be no more sex in my house, not because of manipulation but because this kind of attitude would make it impossible for me to even LOOK at that person with affection.

 

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Goldberry, as I read through that I was absolutely horrified and didn't think it could get any worse until I got to that part. He's saying to force yourself on your wife if she refuses EVEN if you don't really feel in the mood because you need to do the right thing and exert your power over her to prove that you have control over her body. That is pretty much the textbook definition of rape. But I guess it is OK because he claims you 'bought' her and she's now your property. Though I'd totally still have a problem with a guy forcing himself on livestock and chattel so you'd think doing that to a human being and the person you vowed to share your life with and love would strike at some part of his morally decrepit conscience.

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Men like that are lucky to not have a wife like me. The only milk that dude would be getting would be changed locks or an empty house and divorce papers.

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What happens when the man doesn't want sex and the woman does? Or does that never happen?

I posed that question to a IFB Gothard follower one time and it did.not.compute. They could not conceive of a woman asking for sex or a man not being interested.

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What happens when the man doesn't want sex and the woman does?  Or does that never happen? 

 

With a husband like that, even if they believe his tripe, I doubt one of his wives has ever wanted it when he hasn't been in the mood to force the issue.

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I posed that question to a IFB Gothard follower one time and it did.not.compute. They could not conceive of a woman asking for sex or a man not being interested.

 

I'm sure it must happen to some people!

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I'm sure it must happen to some people!

It's happened in this home. We each can and do occasionally say "not tonight." My husband works almost FT and is in school. There's only so many hours in the day.

 

I am thinking though if you feel you can never say no, that you might feel less amorous and affectionate at other times. A lot of the times that dynamic breeds resentment and distance. So in that situation it would make sense that it might not come up too much.

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What happens when the man doesn't want sex and the woman does?  Or does that never happen? 

 

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

Colossians 3:18

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Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

Colossians 3:18

 

Yeah I don't like that book so I don't read it.

 

:laugh:

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This is all starting to remind me of the domestic discipline thread from yonder year.   Blech!

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This is all starting to remind me of the domestic discipline thread from yonder year. Blech!

I would just like to point out that the good Christian wives who pointed me to bible based domestic discipline sites had more theological agreements than disagreements with ATI.

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I would just like to point out that the good Christian wives who pointed me to bible based domestic discipline sites had more theological agreements than disagreements with ATI.

That's because it's only a hop, skip and a jump from one to the other. Wait, maybe that's a crop, stick and a hump?

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barf

I can delay for ages if he ticks me off. ;)

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That's because it's only a hop, skip and a jump from one to the other. Wait, maybe that's a crop, stick and a hump?

And I thank you for the forced cleaning of my IPad screen.

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#goodbyeisallaboutthebuttsnow

 

#badthreadsgonegood

#andthenthefunisdeleted

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And I thank you for the forced cleaning of my IPad screen.

 

Yup, good thing I wasn't drinking anything, mainly because I'm now out of wine. 

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Well, I've had great experiences with ones in my area.  We've seen a family counselor, my oldest has seen both a psychologist and a psychiatrist, there were great resources from a social worker at our local hospital.  So are you really suggesting someone with a serious issue like a teen molesting little kids shouldn't seek out any professional mental health resources at all?  How do you justify that in your mind?

 

But that really is not the norm for a lot of families. I have worked with teens for years. I have sat with a suicidal teen, along with her therapist and case worker, in an ER room for hours and hours while the hospital struggled to find a room for her. In the end she was going to have to wait 5 days to get a bed in the next state. 5 days, for a suicidal kid. A kid who was saying "I am a danger to myself and I am going to hurt myself badly or kill myself." I don't live in a small town or a state without a lot of services. I live in a small city and there are several larger cities within a several hour drive.

 

In many, many communities there are not professional mental  health professionals. There might be a several hour drive to see the one psychiatrist that everyone sees. It is very common for an over-taxed County mental health clinic to make everyone get screened to determine a need for psychiatric drugs. They always find the need and if someone says they don't want to take drugs right away then they are called 'resistant to treatment' and shown the door. No therapy for them. For those who agree to medication, the therapy can be, but not always, monthly and is more of a check in to make sure they are staying on their meds.

 

Ask anyone who works with families and kids and you will get told that one of the biggest needs are therapists that work with kids.  Mental health services for youth can be very, very slim in some places, especially if the services for adults is barely adequate. And to make matters worse, in cases of sexual abuse, if the offender is seen at one agency that means they won't see the victim. So what is the victim supposed to do? Or if they see the victim they won't see the offender. And sex offender treatment for youthful offenders is difficult to find. Sex offender treatment has its own modality and requirements. Not every community is going to be able to offer it.

 

Now, all of that said, the Duggars live in Alabama, not Nebraska or Montana. Those western states, with lower population are really  having a difficult time meeting those sorts of needs. I don't know how populated their county is or how far they are from a 'big city'. I suspect they were much more concerned with avoiding mandated reporters and interacting with the secular world. I do not mean that they were more concerned with that than for their kids, but they were trying to thread the needle. They wanted their son to stop (not necessarily get help, just stop) they vaguely knew their daughters needed some kind of support,and everyone they wanted to talk to, had to be no threat to their cult. That is a big order and they did the best they could. Honestly, it doesn't look much different from what other families I have worked with have done. By the time I got involved in any sibling abuse situation it was messy and needed to be untangled big time. The family had often tried some homegrown security solutions, motion detectors on doors, had tried beating the son (it was always a son in my experience), had often brought in some relative to yell at the kid etc. Whenever one kid hurts another (think one sibling hits the other) there is always a big response and a lot of attention paid to the kid who did the hurting. Sometimes, the kid who is hurt is lost in the shuffle. We give them a pat on the head and ask if they are ok, but then go back to dealing with the problem causing kid. Often the same thing happens with sibling abuse.

 

And, on another note, putting locks on the doors could have been a perfectly fine thing to do. It might have been done to help the girls feel safe in their own room. It gave them some control. I have worked with victims who wanted locks on their own doors, even when they did not live with the perpetrator. It made them feel safer. Maybe, and I know this is most likely a fantasy, the girls had a therapist(s) who was helping them feel safe in their own home and 'lock on bedroom door' was on their list?

 

Now I am sure that some would say that Joshua could have been locked in his own room from the outside, but that is something CPS frowns on, to say the least. If there were to be a fire at night, no one should be in a room that is locked from the outside. It is just too dangerous.

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Yeah they can't really use the excuse they didn't have the money, but that is also a massive stumbling block for a lot of people.

 

My guess is a large number of the prison population are just people who couldn't afford any sort of help. State mental hospitals aren't much better than prisons either.

I think you and Lulu bring up a very important issue. And this happened before they made themselves into a money-making brand. If they had said we tried desperately to find help and couldn't, and the locks were the best solution we had available, and then used their power to campaign for better mental health services instead of hurting gay and transgendered people, I would think differently of them.

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