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I certainly hope none of your children EVER make any mistakes... of course then YOU will probably forgive them, but NO one else should since YOU don't (if it is someone else's child... especially if you already hate the family anyway).

I can't freaking stand people who defend childhood sexual abuse. How gross. Remember when you were done with this forum? I do...

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I am floored.   While I rarely find myself agreeing with you on these sort of threads, I have been reading and thinking about what you've been trying to convey. I had sort of come to the conclusion

A parent can love a child who commits a crime. That said, a parent should not commit crimes of their own to cover up and protect one child at the expense of the others. Loving someone does not requi

The history suggests a pattern of the opposite direction. The history suggests a pattern of continued abuse, and more successful hiding. At the very least, it's a plausible theory, and when taking int

Translation: Our comments about gay and transgender people weren't hypocritical because we compared them using the term 'pedophile' and Josh is a child molester, not a pedophile, as he was 15 and you have to be 16 to be considered a pedophile.

 

What I find most disgusting about this family is their hubris. They promote the idea that the creator of the universe personally guides them in the ways of faith and morals, and he can guide any one of us who seeks him sincerely. And yet, those people have similar experiences with molestation? 

 

 

3480468593_d4ed2b2df4.jpg

 

 

 

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I can't freaking stand people who defend childhood sexual abuse. How gross. Remember when you were done with this forum? I do...

#goodbyeisallaboutthebuttsnow

 

#badthreadsgonegood

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Were the older girls allowed to change the baby boys' diapers? 

Everyone knows that normal girls are not aroused by the sight of male genitalia, adult or otherwise, till marriage when the switch suddenly flips and they're at the ready all the time. Normal, red-blooded boys however can't even change a baby's diaper without being defrauded, tempted, and forced into stumbling against their will. Poor, poor totally non-pedophile boys.

 

 

 

Do we not think that boys can molest other boys as well, or was that not a concern?

 

Hey, I said totally normal, good boys and men get aroused by the sight of baby girl genitalia. Boys molesting boys is a disgusting perversion only perpetrated by the sickest individuals. Not because of the molesting part, naturally, but because of the same-sex component.

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Everyone knows that normal girls are not aroused by the sight of male genitalia, adult or otherwise, till marriage when the switch suddenly flips and they're at the ready all the time. Normal, red-blooded boys however can't even change a baby's diaper without being defrauded, tempted, and forced into stumbling against their will. Poor, poor totally non-pedophile boys.

 

And if, for some terrible reason, they've been infected by Feminism, there's ways to work through that, too. 

 

Christian Husbands – You don’t pay for the milk when you own the cow!

 

 

 

But once you have bought the cow, you ARE supposed to get the milk for free

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And if, for some terrible reason, they've been infected by Feminism, there's ways to work through that, too. 

 

Christian Husbands – You don’t pay for the milk when you own the cow!

 

Holy crap....  This recommends the husband confronting his wife with scriptures about her withholding sex as manipulation   and then...

 

But should you still have relations with your wife after such a confrontation?

I believe the answer is yes, if she yields to you (even with the wrong attitude). When I first had to confront my wife with these types of issues, I would confront her, and then just leave the sex to happen another night, because after all, I like most men don’t prefer to have sex with my wife when she acts grumpy about it.

But I realized that the sex still needs to occur, that sex is not about being in the mood, and it is not about feelings, it is about doing what is right.

 

I don't agree with sex as manipulation, and it's fine to have a conversation about it and maybe why it is happening, but this last part made me ill.... You need to "do what is right"!  Force your wife to have sex when she is not in the mood to ensure your authority!  

We follow a loving headship model in our family and if this EVER happened I would be out the door or someone would be physically injured and it wouldn't be me... There would be no more sex in my house, not because of manipulation but because this kind of attitude would make it impossible for me to even LOOK at that person with affection.

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OMG I got so mad I didn't even get to this part...

 

Can my Christian wife ever say no to my sexual advances?

This is the logical question you as a Christian husband (or engaged man) might ask after everything we have just looked at. The answer to this question is a Christian wife should never give her husband a flat no, BUT she can humbly and gently ask for a delay. There may be legitimate physical or other issues that might prompt your wife to ask you for a delay.  

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Oh, I'm in albeto's fan club, so I'll have to disagree with you about 'condemnation'. Intelligent critique ? Sure :)

 

A thoughtful critique leads to condemnation of damaging programs, I think. I condemn the programming of Bill Gothard and I'm not shy about it. Because the Duggars promote this very programming to an audience of some 300+ million Americans, I think more of us should condemn it. It's dangerous, as most of us can see. 

 

If duck presumes condemnation about the Duggars' application of xianity somehow translates to all applications of xianity, she's simplified the point so much she's missed it. It wouldn't be the first time, won't likely be the last, if we can expect trends to continue. It does suggest that people are getting more and more frustrated as their traditionally honored privileges are called out as unjustified and no longer tolerable. I don't mind putting an end to unjustified, intolerable expectations. I don't think we can expect to do that without condemning them for some reason. And reason, I think, we have aplenty.

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barf

 

Holy crap....  This recommends the husband confronting his wife with scriptures about her withholding sex as manipulation   and then...

 

But should you still have relations with your wife after such a confrontation?

I believe the answer is yes, if she yields to you (even with the wrong attitude). When I first had to confront my wife with these types of issues, I would confront her, and then just leave the sex to happen another night, because after all, I like most men don’t prefer to have sex with my wife when she acts grumpy about it.

But I realized that the sex still needs to occur, that sex is not about being in the mood, and it is not about feelings, it is about doing what is right.

 

I don't agree with sex as manipulation, and it's fine to have a conversation about it and maybe why it is happening, but this last part made me ill.... You need to "do what is right"!  Force your wife to have sex when she is not in the mood to ensure your authority!  

We follow a loving headship model in our family and if this EVER happened I would be out the door or someone would be physically injured and it wouldn't be me... There would be no more sex in my house, not because of manipulation but because this kind of attitude would make it impossible for me to even LOOK at that person with affection.

 

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Goldberry, as I read through that I was absolutely horrified and didn't think it could get any worse until I got to that part. He's saying to force yourself on your wife if she refuses EVEN if you don't really feel in the mood because you need to do the right thing and exert your power over her to prove that you have control over her body. That is pretty much the textbook definition of rape. But I guess it is OK because he claims you 'bought' her and she's now your property. Though I'd totally still have a problem with a guy forcing himself on livestock and chattel so you'd think doing that to a human being and the person you vowed to share your life with and love would strike at some part of his morally decrepit conscience.

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What happens when the man doesn't want sex and the woman does? Or does that never happen?

I posed that question to a IFB Gothard follower one time and it did.not.compute. They could not conceive of a woman asking for sex or a man not being interested.

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What happens when the man doesn't want sex and the woman does?  Or does that never happen? 

 

With a husband like that, even if they believe his tripe, I doubt one of his wives has ever wanted it when he hasn't been in the mood to force the issue.

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I'm sure it must happen to some people!

It's happened in this home. We each can and do occasionally say "not tonight." My husband works almost FT and is in school. There's only so many hours in the day.

 

I am thinking though if you feel you can never say no, that you might feel less amorous and affectionate at other times. A lot of the times that dynamic breeds resentment and distance. So in that situation it would make sense that it might not come up too much.

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This is all starting to remind me of the domestic discipline thread from yonder year. Blech!

I would just like to point out that the good Christian wives who pointed me to bible based domestic discipline sites had more theological agreements than disagreements with ATI.

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I would just like to point out that the good Christian wives who pointed me to bible based domestic discipline sites had more theological agreements than disagreements with ATI.

That's because it's only a hop, skip and a jump from one to the other. Wait, maybe that's a crop, stick and a hump?

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That's because it's only a hop, skip and a jump from one to the other. Wait, maybe that's a crop, stick and a hump?

And I thank you for the forced cleaning of my IPad screen.

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Well, I've had great experiences with ones in my area.  We've seen a family counselor, my oldest has seen both a psychologist and a psychiatrist, there were great resources from a social worker at our local hospital.  So are you really suggesting someone with a serious issue like a teen molesting little kids shouldn't seek out any professional mental health resources at all?  How do you justify that in your mind?

 

But that really is not the norm for a lot of families. I have worked with teens for years. I have sat with a suicidal teen, along with her therapist and case worker, in an ER room for hours and hours while the hospital struggled to find a room for her. In the end she was going to have to wait 5 days to get a bed in the next state. 5 days, for a suicidal kid. A kid who was saying "I am a danger to myself and I am going to hurt myself badly or kill myself." I don't live in a small town or a state without a lot of services. I live in a small city and there are several larger cities within a several hour drive.

 

In many, many communities there are not professional mental  health professionals. There might be a several hour drive to see the one psychiatrist that everyone sees. It is very common for an over-taxed County mental health clinic to make everyone get screened to determine a need for psychiatric drugs. They always find the need and if someone says they don't want to take drugs right away then they are called 'resistant to treatment' and shown the door. No therapy for them. For those who agree to medication, the therapy can be, but not always, monthly and is more of a check in to make sure they are staying on their meds.

 

Ask anyone who works with families and kids and you will get told that one of the biggest needs are therapists that work with kids.  Mental health services for youth can be very, very slim in some places, especially if the services for adults is barely adequate. And to make matters worse, in cases of sexual abuse, if the offender is seen at one agency that means they won't see the victim. So what is the victim supposed to do? Or if they see the victim they won't see the offender. And sex offender treatment for youthful offenders is difficult to find. Sex offender treatment has its own modality and requirements. Not every community is going to be able to offer it.

 

Now, all of that said, the Duggars live in Alabama, not Nebraska or Montana. Those western states, with lower population are really  having a difficult time meeting those sorts of needs. I don't know how populated their county is or how far they are from a 'big city'. I suspect they were much more concerned with avoiding mandated reporters and interacting with the secular world. I do not mean that they were more concerned with that than for their kids, but they were trying to thread the needle. They wanted their son to stop (not necessarily get help, just stop) they vaguely knew their daughters needed some kind of support,and everyone they wanted to talk to, had to be no threat to their cult. That is a big order and they did the best they could. Honestly, it doesn't look much different from what other families I have worked with have done. By the time I got involved in any sibling abuse situation it was messy and needed to be untangled big time. The family had often tried some homegrown security solutions, motion detectors on doors, had tried beating the son (it was always a son in my experience), had often brought in some relative to yell at the kid etc. Whenever one kid hurts another (think one sibling hits the other) there is always a big response and a lot of attention paid to the kid who did the hurting. Sometimes, the kid who is hurt is lost in the shuffle. We give them a pat on the head and ask if they are ok, but then go back to dealing with the problem causing kid. Often the same thing happens with sibling abuse.

 

And, on another note, putting locks on the doors could have been a perfectly fine thing to do. It might have been done to help the girls feel safe in their own room. It gave them some control. I have worked with victims who wanted locks on their own doors, even when they did not live with the perpetrator. It made them feel safer. Maybe, and I know this is most likely a fantasy, the girls had a therapist(s) who was helping them feel safe in their own home and 'lock on bedroom door' was on their list?

 

Now I am sure that some would say that Joshua could have been locked in his own room from the outside, but that is something CPS frowns on, to say the least. If there were to be a fire at night, no one should be in a room that is locked from the outside. It is just too dangerous.

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Yeah they can't really use the excuse they didn't have the money, but that is also a massive stumbling block for a lot of people.

 

My guess is a large number of the prison population are just people who couldn't afford any sort of help. State mental hospitals aren't much better than prisons either.

I think you and Lulu bring up a very important issue. And this happened before they made themselves into a money-making brand. If they had said we tried desperately to find help and couldn't, and the locks were the best solution we had available, and then used their power to campaign for better mental health services instead of hurting gay and transgendered people, I would think differently of them.

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But that really is not the norm for a lot of families. I have worked with teens for years. I have sat with a suicidal teen, along with her therapist and case worker, in an ER room for hours and hours while the hospital struggled to find a room for her. In the end she was going to have to wait 5 days to get a bed in the next state. 5 days, for a suicidal kid. A kid who was saying "I am a danger to myself and I am going to hurt myself badly or kill myself." I don't live in a small town or a state without a lot of services. I live in a small city and there are several larger cities within a several hour drive.

 

In many, many communities there are not professional mental  health professionals. There might be a several hour drive to see the one psychiatrist that everyone sees. It is very common for an over-taxed County mental health clinic to make everyone get screened to determine a need for psychiatric drugs. They always find the need and if someone says they don't want to take drugs right away then they are called 'resistant to treatment' and shown the door. No therapy for them. For those who agree to medication, the therapy can be, but not always, monthly and is more of a check in to make sure they are staying on their meds.

 

Ask anyone who works with families and kids and you will get told that one of the biggest needs are therapists that work with kids.  Mental health services for youth can be very, very slim in some places, especially if the services for adults is barely adequate. And to make matters worse, in cases of sexual abuse, if the offender is seen at one agency that means they won't see the victim. So what is the victim supposed to do? Or if they see the victim they won't see the offender. And sex offender treatment for youthful offenders is difficult to find. Sex offender treatment has its own modality and requirements. Not every community is going to be able to offer it.

 

Now, all of that said, the Duggars live in Alabama, not Nebraska or Montana. Those western states, with lower population are really  having a difficult time meeting those sorts of needs. I don't know how populated their county is or how far they are from a 'big city'. I suspect they were much more concerned with avoiding mandated reporters and interacting with the secular world. I do not mean that they were more concerned with that than for their kids, but they were trying to thread the needle. They wanted their son to stop (not necessarily get help, just stop) they vaguely knew their daughters needed some kind of support,and everyone they wanted to talk to, had to be no threat to their cult. That is a big order and they did the best they could. Honestly, it doesn't look much different from what other families I have worked with have done. By the time I got involved in any sibling abuse situation it was messy and needed to be untangled big time. The family had often tried some homegrown security solutions, motion detectors on doors, had tried beating the son (it was always a son in my experience), had often brought in some relative to yell at the kid etc. Whenever one kid hurts another (think one sibling hits the other) there is always a big response and a lot of attention paid to the kid who did the hurting. Sometimes, the kid who is hurt is lost in the shuffle. We give them a pat on the head and ask if they are ok, but then go back to dealing with the problem causing kid. Often the same thing happens with sibling abuse.

 

And, on another note, putting locks on the doors could have been a perfectly fine thing to do. It might have been done to help the girls feel safe in their own room. It gave them some control. I have worked with victims who wanted locks on their own doors, even when they did not live with the perpetrator. It made them feel safer. Maybe, and I know this is most likely a fantasy, the girls had a therapist(s) who was helping them feel safe in their own home and 'lock on bedroom door' was on their list?

 

Now I am sure that some would say that Joshua could have been locked in his own room from the outside, but that is something CPS frowns on, to say the least. If there were to be a fire at night, no one should be in a room that is locked from the outside. It is just too dangerous.

 

 

When my son was 4 he was sneaking out of the house in the middle of the night.  It was a nightmare.

 

Eventually....after trying many many things, we reversed his door handle and basically locked him in his room at night.  We also put a baby monitor in his room and a smoke detector. His room was across the hall from ours.  

 

Glad CPS didn't get wind of our solution.  I was already freaked out and worried because a neighbor had threatened to call the 'authorities' on us over the whole matter of him sneaking out.

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But that really is not the norm for a lot of families. I have worked with teens for years. I have sat with a suicidal teen, along with her therapist and case worker, in an ER room for hours and hours while the hospital struggled to find a room for her. In the end she was going to have to wait 5 days to get a bed in the next state. 5 days, for a suicidal kid. A kid who was saying "I am a danger to myself and I am going to hurt myself badly or kill myself." I don't live in a small town or a state without a lot of services. I live in a small city and there are several larger cities within a several hour drive.

 

In many, many communities there are not professional mental health professionals. There might be a several hour drive to see the one psychiatrist that everyone sees. It is very common for an over-taxed County mental health clinic to make everyone get screened to determine a need for psychiatric drugs. They always find the need and if someone says they don't want to take drugs right away then they are called 'resistant to treatment' and shown the door. No therapy for them. For those who agree to medication, the therapy can be, but not always, monthly and is more of a check in to make sure they are staying on their meds.

 

Ask anyone who works with families and kids and you will get told that one of the biggest needs are therapists that work with kids. Mental health services for youth can be very, very slim in some places, especially if the services for adults is barely adequate. And to make matters worse, in cases of sexual abuse, if the offender is seen at one agency that means they won't see the victim. So what is the victim supposed to do? Or if they see the victim they won't see the offender. And sex offender treatment for youthful offenders is difficult to find. Sex offender treatment has its own modality and requirements. Not every community is going to be able to offer it.

 

Now, all of that said, the Duggars live in Alabama, not Nebraska or Montana. Those western states, with lower population are really having a difficult time meeting those sorts of needs. I don't know how populated their county is or how far they are from a 'big city'. I suspect they were much more concerned with avoiding mandated reporters and interacting with the secular world. I do not mean that they were more concerned with that than for their kids, but they were trying to thread the needle. They wanted their son to stop (not necessarily get help, just stop) they vaguely knew their daughters needed some kind of support,and everyone they wanted to talk to, had to be no threat to their cult. That is a big order and they did the best they could. Honestly, it doesn't look much different from what other families I have worked with have done. By the time I got involved in any sibling abuse situation it was messy and needed to be untangled big time. The family had often tried some homegrown security solutions, motion detectors on doors, had tried beating the son (it was always a son in my experience), had often brought in some relative to yell at the kid etc. Whenever one kid hurts another (think one sibling hits the other) there is always a big response and a lot of attention paid to the kid who did the hurting. Sometimes, the kid who is hurt is lost in the shuffle. We give them a pat on the head and ask if they are ok, but then go back to dealing with the problem causing kid. Often the same thing happens with sibling abuse.

 

And, on another note, putting locks on the doors could have been a perfectly fine thing to do. It might have been done to help the girls feel safe in their own room. It gave them some control. I have worked with victims who wanted locks on their own doors, even when they did not live with the perpetrator. It made them feel safer. Maybe, and I know this is most likely a fantasy, the girls had a therapist(s) who was helping them feel safe in their own home and 'lock on bedroom door' was on their list?

 

Now I am sure that some would say that Joshua could have been locked in his own room from the outside, but that is something CPS frowns on, to say the least. If there were to be a fire at night, no one should be in a room that is locked from the outside. It is just too dangerous.

Arkansas, not Alabama. I'm not sure Alabama is teeming with mental health resources either. Most of us Deep South, deep red states are all vying for 48th in schools, health, etc. surveys. Thank goodness for Mississippi and Alabama is a joke here.

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I do agree that the mental health resources are not what they need to be. Not for sexual abuse counseling, not for mental health disorders, not for grief or crisis counseling, not for ASD. And it varies widely. So widely in fact I am sure there are more than a few states that we just *couldn't* get our son with ASD what he needs. Even in a place with many resources, waiting lists and such are a serious consideration.

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If only mental health could be addressed as, you know... health, and not "sin" or "choice."

That change is happening in some churches. But, as with society in general, it can feel like wading through hip deep molasses dragging a sack of bricks.

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I do agree that the mental health resources are not what they need to be. Not for sexual abuse counseling, not for mental health disorders, not for grief or crisis counseling, not for ASD. And it varies widely. So widely in fact I am sure there are more than a few states that we just *couldn't* get out son with ASD what he needs. Even in a place with many resources, waiting lists and such are a serious consideration.

 

And if your area is anything like mine, you're not allowed to DIY even if you can.

 

I hate having to choose between the good choice and the right choice. Even after all this time there are still immature remnants of my personality that throw tantrums when they aren't the same thing.

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Now, all of that said, the Duggars live in Alabama, not Nebraska or Montana. Those western states, with lower population are really  having a difficult time meeting those sorts of needs. I don't know how populated their county is or how far they are from a 'big city'. I suspect they were much more concerned with avoiding mandated reporters and interacting with the secular world.

 

They're from Arkansas and it was reported this past Spring that the population for the NW Arkansas corner is now half a million. We have lots of access to medical professionals. If not, there is UAMS/Children's Hospital in Little Rock...4 hours away. They've been there before.

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Goldberry, as I read through that I was absolutely horrified and didn't think it could get any worse until I got to that part. He's saying to force yourself on your wife if she refuses EVEN if you don't really feel in the mood because you need to do the right thing and exert your power over her to prove that you have control over her body. That is pretty much the textbook definition of rape. But I guess it is OK because he claims you 'bought' her and she's now your property. Though I'd totally still have a problem with a guy forcing himself on livestock and chattel so you'd think doing that to a human being and the person you vowed to share your life with and love would strike at some part of his morally decrepit conscience.

He states elsewhere that there is no such thing as marital rape. Because, according to the Bible, it's only rape if the woman isn't your property.

 

Which is true of Biblical law. It's oddly refreshing the way he so baldly presents this information.

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I would just like to point out that the good Christian wives who pointed me to bible based domestic discipline sites had more theological agreements than disagreements with ATI.

 

Figures.

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Ok, I just made the mistake of reading through that man's blog some more. Dude has got himself some serious issues. It also sounds like he's been divorced once and possibly twice, aggregates his "marriage experience" by adding the length of both marriages and has a child he doesn't live with. He says the few couples he know who live like that are some of the happiest you will meet. Psst. You can never know how happy a marriage is unless you live with the couple or are part of the couple.

 

The proof is in the pudding and this guy has fallen way short.

 

The long winded article on marital rape and abuse is more than a touch creepy.

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But really, who cares about the rantings of some random blogger with 150 followers?

I was trying to parse if it was satire or written in earnest. It seems to be in earnest. Idle curiosity on a lazy Sunday AM. Also, I agree with the pp, I do appreciate his flat out honesty about it.

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What happens when the man doesn't want sex and the woman does?  Or does that never happen? 

 

"The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." 

 

1 Corinthians 7:3-5

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This is the quote that troubles very much:

 

Edited to add this from the interview of Jessa Seewald, Josh's sister.

 

<Jessa>

"SEEWALD: No. I think for us our situation is so different than most girls in that he was -- he's very subtle anyway. Like he knew in his mind my actions are wrong and I have bad intentions but he was very sly like the girls didn't catch on, you know. It was like, okay, if you catch the girl sleeping, you know, like a quick feel or whatever. Or it's like, you know, if you're just not really aware, you know, in the situation that happened when the girls were awake, it's like they weren't aware what was happening. It was very subtle. And so I think that for us it's like, okay, we realize this is serious but at the same time it wasn't like a horror story or like this terrible thing or like, oh my goodness, we were like --"

 

Specifically the phrases *very subtle* *knew my actions were wrong and have bad intentions* *very sly*

 

He "knew" he was wrong so he was subtle and sly.

 

What changed in his time away in this regard?

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"The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

 

1 Corinthians 7:3-5

You know, there are many reasons besides prayer that a person of either gender might not be willing to have sex.

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