Jim Bob and Michelle giving tv interview

[albeto.]

Speaking of rocks thrown, have we all seen this post which has gone viral?

 

 

Terry Coffey posted this photo (image is public) and the following post on facebook in reply to Jenner's VF cover:

 

As I see post after post about Bruce Jenner's transition to a woman, and I hear words like, bravery, heroism, and courage, just thought I'd remind all of us what real American courage, heroism, and bravery looks like!

 

 

What he didn't know was that the photo was staged, a kind of therapeutic exercize for the photographer who was himself beaten almost to death for the "crime" of being a man dressing like a woman. Coffey posted the following after he learned this:

 

 

    This is the photo I shared yesterday in the spirit of spotlighting “true bravery.â€

 

    This photo that accompanied my words, was chosen from a quick image search. Just wanted something to fit my words. I wanted to find out who the photographer was, so I could credit his work.

 

    In an ironic twist, I have discovered that the photo is part of a documentary created by a man who was beaten nearly to death outside of a bar in 2000. After spending 9 days in a coma, suffering severe brain damage and being unable to walk or talk for a year, he chose to try and cope with his pain from the tragic event, by creating a world of stories and characters and photos set in WWII. The image I chose, was one of those created for an upcoming documentary. Why was he nearly beaten to death by 5 strangers?

 

         Because he was a cross-dresser.

 

    I could have chosen one of hundreds of other photos. But I didn’t, I chose this one. Do I think it was an accident? I don’t.

 

    What happened to this man was wrong, cruel, and unforgivable.

 

    Hate helps nothing.

 

    Love wounds no one.

 

    and God heals all.

 

    (and irony makes us think)

 

More photos and info here. 

 

THIS - beating people to death for crimes identified by a bronze age, desert dwelling culture completely and utterly unlike our own - is why we continue to call out the Duggars and those like them. Remember when Michelle Duggar's robocall warned people of Arkansas transgender people are waiting to prey on innocent children? 

 

When these kinds of lies are promoted to gullible people, people's fear and hate are stirred up. This kind of speech should be identified as hate speech and she and all her ilk ought to be stopped from promoting the kinds of things that really DO damage people. Damaging the reputation of a hateful, deceptive family vs. damaging the physical and mental states of innocent parties. Which direction are these rocks being thrown again? 

 

 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I find it bizarre that people, even those on this board, are still trying to make it political.

And the intentional pot stirring by a small number.

[MFG]

I doubt it. At least not quietly.

*heavy sigh*

[Pam in CT]

In Touch's magazine's response to the interview: 

 

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/duggar-interview-7-crucial-facts-they-didn-t-tell-you-the-cover-up-continues-59917

 

Thanks for this.  It is unexpectedly... factual and even-toned.  Their treatment of this series of unfortunate events might turn out to be the pivot point on which InTouch transforms itself into real journalism (?).  One can hope.

[Mergath]

I have read all the comments on this post and all I could think of was, wow, all the wonderful perfect parents have all congregated on one message board. You know, it's really *easy* to condemn another family in how they handled a family situation when you haven't walked through it yourself. There is no handbook to this parenting thing and I'm glad that so many of you have figured it out and think you have the right to school everyone else, from how to handle a deeply disheartening and awful situation such as the Duggars have gone through, to what a "proper" response should be if your child was momentarily lost in the airport. When they answered how they put up safeguards, all of you criticized it. They just cant do anything right. How the Duggars handled the situation may not have been how I, personally, would have handled it, but that doesn't give me the right to condemn and flog them. It sounds like they truly did the best they thought to do TWELVE YEARS AGO.

 

You have to remember, Josh was their oldest. They were going through the teen years for the first time just like any of us as parents will do or have done. He didn't have to tell his parents what he had done. And you know what, MANY MANY boys do not tell their parents when they improperly touch. He could have kept it his dirty little secret (or lied if they did find out)and if the girls really DIDNT know what happened until the parents revealed it to them, then nobody would EVER know. Is that what you would prefer to have happened? They went to the police, they decided not to press charges. They got counseling. It's none of your business as to whether that counseling is "good enough" in your eyes. Isn't the point of counseling to CHANGE and to repent and to realize your wrongdoing? According to the people that know Josh the best, his parents and his sisters (who were the victims), he is a changed man and there is nothing to indicate I should doubt that. All of this judgment and nastiness towards them is just sickening. Yes, what Josh did was wrong, I did several wrong things as a child that would probably have landed me in Juvenile Detention but you know what, I didn't tell anyone because I was so ashamed. I would hate to think that something that I did that happened when I was young and stupid could effect me my whole life. How many parents are going to be LESS likely to go to authorities now because of how this has been handled in the media? God forbid your child ever run for office, become famous, etc because it could ruin them for life when people who dont know, dont really care, get involved and decide to crucify them. 

 

And I say all this as someone who was improperly touched, while awake, both by a family member and someone at my school, under the clothes. Not everyone is traumatized and yes, some of us do forgive the ones that sin against us. I know, that's very hard for some of you to understand, especially those who dont know and understand the love and forgiveness of Christ. As someone that holds to the doctrine of Total Depravity, yes, this could happen to anyones family and safeguards should be in place. This happens to all kinds of families, all across the board. And that's the ones we know about. 

 

So if and when this happens in your family, I expect you all to blab about it to everyone else so we can all judge how YOU handle the situation and gather our rocks to throw.

 

Well. You certainly drank the Kool-aid, didn't you? 

 

Most people don't need a handbook to figure out that when you have a son who is a child molester, you don't sit back and let him do his thing for years while his victims are forced to live with their abuser.

 

Of course, most people don't need a handbook to figure out that ATI is a harmful, dangerous cult and treating girls like cattle isn't great for their mental health. Actually, maybe someone should write a handbook and give it to the Duggars. You'd think they'd have figured out this whole parenting thing after nineteen kids, but apparently they're a little slow.

[*Lulu*]

I find it bizarre that people, even those on this board, are still trying to make it political.

It did not pass unnoticed that there is a definite overlap between the posters that defended Bill Cosby, argue the dangers to men of being falsely accused, and are defending the Duggars. (Try making a Venn diagram of that!)

 

Calling it political or religious persecution is just a way to kick up dust and obscure the larger issue.

 

There may be some religious and political concerns in the minds of some, but my money is on a cultural shift being experienced. Abuse, including and especially sexual, has been the evil that lurks in the dark, banished from the square of public discourse. That is changing. Slowly, painfully, but it IS changing.

 

And that scares people.

[Jaybee]

I feel very tentative about putting this out there. But it just keeps coming up in my head as I try to read this thread objectively and figure out what I think about all this. I have never watched the show, but I have read the threads here as they have come up, as well as articles. I do not want to normalize sexual abuse. Yet, I keep wondering if we are judging the girls too harshly here. I am trying to understand.

 

I grew up in a Christian home, but nothing like ATI. We were taught to avoid sex before marriage. My parents had a good, solid marriage, and flirted with each other in a healthy (non-creepy) way up until my father's death. I have been married for over 30 years, and we have always had a good healthy relationship, including the physical.

 

When I was a child, there were three incidents that I experienced. One was when I was a preschooler, and family friends from out of town were staying over. All the kids slept in the living room, and I had a case of hero-worship on one of the young teenagers. He did an "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours," and because I liked him so much, I did. However, it was so dark you couldn't see anything. I never told anybody, and didn't even think about it much in subsequent years until I was an adult. Looking back, I don't see him as a pervert, but more as a curious teen who was doing something he knew he shouldn't, but without understanding the greater weight of his actions. (People in general were not as open with their young teens back then, and didn't talk about abuse much.) I don't even know if we saw them again after that experience.

 

When I was about 10, I was outside with a relative, and he came up behind me and grabbed my developing breasts and squeezed them really hard. I pulled away and ran inside, and avoided ever being alone with him again. I also have a vague memory of seeing him do similarly to my sister, and perhaps grabbing her crotch as well. I never told my parents, but did ask my sister about it, and it was confirmed. Again, I didn't understand the implications, but didn't want to be with him. 

 

When I was 13, I went to visit an old man in a nursing home. He grabbed me and kissed me on the mouth. I think he had dementia and thought I was his wife, from things he said. Ugh. I ran out, called my mom to pick me up, and told her what had happened.

 

I had a good and open relationship with my parents, and they talked with us openly about sex in a practical, healthy way. Not about abuse, but about the body, etc. Yet I never talked to them about the first two incidents. In the first one, I suppose I felt at fault because I agreed to do it. In the second one, by the time I understood the implications behind it, he was dead and there seemed no cause to bring it up. 

 

These things have made me more cautious in protecting my own children, and not to overly trust others. I have also told my children about these incidents, in order to help them know that we want to protect them. I know what they did was wrong. I avoided the one who grabbed me. I wouldn't want them to have done anything like that to others--i.e., if the two older men were still alive, I would do something to protect others from them. Yet, when I look back on the incidents, I can't honestly say that I wish they were jailed or anything like that. I didn't need counseling. I occasionally think about these things when abuse is brought up, but more in a curious way, asking myself, "Was I traumatized and didn't realize it?" It is true the nursing home incident upset me a lot. But more in the way that the personnel should have been warned to watch out for him and protect others from him. 

 

So when the girls say that they have forgiven him and that he changed, I believe them. I do agree that forgiveness does not equal trust, in that I would be very careful to protect my children from any situations where he could abuse them. But I keep thinking that maybe we really are traumatizing them more by saying they should be traumatized and he should be jailed than by the actual incidents. I don't see it as necessarily a result of their ATI home background, because I didn't have that, but think I might feel similarly to them. I don't know--I find this a little confusing.

[6packofun]

Erin's Law Advocate reveals one thing the Duggars have done right:  https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/abuse-survivor-reveals-duggar-text-messages-the-120789500852.html

 

I agree with much of what that person said, but this? "So why would you keep someone like that in your lives?"  It is their SON.  Your relationship will--and should--change, but you don't kick him out of your life.  There is a LOT of this sort of talk going on among people who would really struggle about what exactly to do if this happened to their own son and daughters.  They definitely should have gotten Josh out of the house right away.  Keeping him there was the wrong choice, I think.  But some people are acting like their first stop would be the county jail and that's ridiculous, especially when that first time was not as intrusive? serious? (there's no good word here, but I think you know what I mean).  It's a shame that it wasn't handled so that that was ALL it was.  :(

[OnTheBrink]

I've not read all 8 pages so far, so sorry if this is a repeat. I saw this article posted on FB. I was wondering (and hoping) someone would do a behavior analysis of them during the interview. http://www.salon.com/2015/06/04/the_seven_most_horrifying_exchanges_from_the_duggars_and_megyn_kelly_interview/

 

[Wheres Toto]

Speaking of rocks thrown, have we all seen this post which has gone viral?

 

 

Terry Coffey posted this photo (image is public) and the following post on facebook in reply to Jenner's VF cover:

 

 

What he didn't know was that the photo was staged, a kind of therapeutic exercize for the photographer who was himself beaten almost to death for the "crime" of being a man dressing like a woman. Coffey posted the following after he learned this:

 

 

More photos and info here. 

 

THIS - beating people to death for crimes identified by a bronze age, desert dwelling culture completely and utterly unlike our own - is why we continue to call out the Duggars and those like them. Remember when Michelle Duggar's robocall warned people of Arkansas transgender people are waiting to prey on innocent children? 

 

When these kinds of lies are promoted to gullible people, people's fear and hate are stirred up. This kind of speech should be identified as hate speech and she and all her ilk ought to be stopped from promoting the kinds of things that really DO damage people. Damaging the reputation of a hateful, deceptive family vs. damaging the physical and mental states of innocent parties. Which direction are these rocks being thrown again? 

 

Based on what I read, that's not even real people in the picture.  It's a model the photographer built to represent a World War II era Belgium town.

 

I guess it's good that the poster updated and retracted his comments.  Would have been better if he didn't make them in the first place.

[Katy]

I agree with much of what that person said, but this? "So why would you keep someone like that in your lives?"  It is their SON.  Your relationship will--and should--change, but you don't kick him out of your life.  There is a LOT of this sort of talk going on among people who would really struggle about what exactly to do if this happened to their own son and daughters.  They definitely should have gotten Josh out of the house right away.  Keeping him there was the wrong choice, I think.  But some people are acting like their first stop would be the county jail and that's ridiculous, especially when that first time was not as intrusive? serious? (there's no good word here, but I think you know what I mean).  It's a shame that it wasn't handled so that that was ALL it was.   :(

 

I agree, though I'm not sure that statement wasn't taken out of context.

 

As I understand the first incident was with the unrelated babysitter.  Which she dismissed as practically nothing, so she would not have pressed charges.  But when a daughter came crying and told on him, he should have been out of the house.  A teen grabbing another teen outside of their clothing without permission is so common many people would treat that like harassment rather than assault.  A teen fondling their sister seems like a completely different, and worse, boundary being crossed.

[Laura Cook]

Now why do you suppose that is? Is it a lesser crime if you are an unknown? Or is there some moral justification for heaping more coals upon the heads of people on TV?

It's not a lesser crime, not at all. If this had happened in a unknown family it would be just as horrible. Were they an unknown family the media would not have thought it news worthy, or if they did it probably wouldn't have gone much past their corner of northwest Arkansas.

 

I'm thinking that maybe people feel morally justified about dumping on them because of how they came across to so many people. Speaking for myself personally, I used to watch the show up until Josh and Anna's courtship stuff was being aired. I thought they came across as smug, holier than thou and believing they were morally superior to others.In real life, maybe they are and maybe they aren't, but that is how quite a few people see them. So this news about Josh molesting 5 girls came out, and what appears to be an attempt to cover it up by his parents, and all the people that felt similarly turned off by them are saying, "Ha! Not so morally superior after all are you?! Here's what you did wrong ..." It seems to be human nature to enjoy putting people on pedestals and then we also really enjoy knocking them off. I can't say if it is the right thing for other people to be doing. For me, to be honest, when it has come up in conversation I have not made any bones about the fact that I think he committed a crime much more grievous than they are trying to play it off as, that the way Josh and his parents seemed to focus on themselves and not the victims is disgusting and that his parents handled the whole thing terribly from beginning to end. I'd be happy if they never were on TV again.

 

It is a good question and made me think, I'm still thinking about it but don't have anything else coherent to add at the moment. I hope it made sense, having a hard time waking up this morning!

 

I haven't participated in this thread at all till now, but I have been reading and I was irritated at being chastised by someone who(not you SKL), came across as being a bit holier than thou. Apparently that attitude really ticks me off, lol.

[goldberry]

This makes me remember something years ago, when my sister had her first daughter.  She and her husband had a terrible relationship, and she's a bit of an unstable person anyway.  Once when husband tried to actually help out by changing a diaper, she yelled at him, get away from her, are you some kind of pervert?  

 

This stuck with me, because it HORRIFIED me that she would accuse her husband like that when he was just trying to be a father.  I remember thinking how could you even be married to someone if you really did think that about them?  (She didn't, just to clarify, she was just being mean and awful.)  But these Duggar girls are somehow getting the impression this is EXPECTED?  Or on the same level as *normal* sexual thoughts about fellow teenagers or whatever?  

 

If I had a teen boy, I would totally expect him to be physically attracted to girls of his age level.  THAT is normal.  It is not normal to EXPECT him to be interested in fondling babies or children.  

 

There is a difference between keeping your eyes open and not ignoring signs that something might be wrong, and EXPECTING that your son or husband might have those feelings and that you need to set up protections ahead of time.

 

(I am including husbands here, because if you expect that of your sons, why would you NOT expect it of your husband?  I don't get that.)

[Katy]

This makes me remember something years ago, when my sister had her first daughter.  She and her husband had a terrible relationship, and she's a bit of an unstable person anyway.  Once when husband tried to actually help out by changing a diaper, she yelled at him, get away from her, are you some kind of pervert?  

 

This stuck with me, because it HORRIFIED me that she would accuse her husband like that when he was just trying to be a father.  I remember thinking how could you even be married to someone if you really did think that about them?  (She didn't, just to clarify, she was just being mean and awful.)  But these Duggar girls are somehow getting the impression this is EXPECTED?  Or on the same level as *normal* sexual thoughts about fellow teenagers or whatever?  

 

If I had a teen boy, I would totally expect him to be physically attracted to girls of his age level.  THAT is normal.  It is not normal to EXPECT him to be interested in fondling babies or children.  

 

There is a difference between keeping your eyes open and not ignoring signs that something might be wrong, and EXPECTING that your son or husband might have those feelings and that you need to set up protections ahead of time.

 

(I am including husbands here, because if you expect that of your sons, why would you NOT expect it of your husband?  I don't get that.)

 

 

I wonder if the lack of distinction is the problem.  The more I've been learning about ATI and modesty culture, the more I've noticed that many don't differentiate between attraction and lust, or being tempted by a thought and continuing to dwell and fantasize about it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

So when the girls say that they have forgiven him and that he changed, I believe them. I do agree that forgiveness does not equal trust, in that I would be very careful to protect my children from any situations where he could abuse them. But I keep thinking that maybe we really are traumatizing them more by saying they should be traumatized and he should be jailed than by the actual incidents. I don't see it as necessarily a result of their ATI home background, because I didn't have that, but think I might feel similarly to them. I don't know--I find this a little confusing.

 

I believe them too after reading about it.  The family has put themselves out there publicly so it goes with the territory to have one's life scrutinized under a microscope.  Had they not been in a long running TV show we would have never heard about this.  It didn't strike me for even a second that the sisters were traumatized by this. That doesn't make what happen better, but I don't see the point in punishing the family either.  The sisters said they feel worse about having to discuss this now than when it actually happened. 

 

And to your experiences, I bet there isn't a single female on this board who hasn't had something similar happen. It's sometimes hard to know what is "normal" and what is criminal.  Sometimes it's very obvious, but a lot of times it isn't.  Like your first incident, you weren't forced.  Had you refused and he ripped your clothes off, that would have obviously crossed the line.  The second incident, goodness knows I've had a few creepy family members too.  But the one thing is they always did what they did right in front of other people.  They didn't corner me alone.  That leads me to believe they were completely clueless or their intentions weren't all that serious.  I don't like that these things happened, but I don't feel traumatized.  If I had to talk about them publicly after all these years I think THAT would traumatize me.

 

And I don't say any of this to make light of anyone's pain and suffering as a result of something like this happening to them.  People feel how they feel and I'm not telling anyone how they should feel.

[LibraryLover]

I do feel sad  these young women have to hurt again. I hope they find peace soon. I also hope they know their story coming out will  likely help others who are currently suffering in silence.

[redsquirrel]

I wonder if the lack of distinction is the problem.  The more I've been learning about ATI and modesty culture, the more I've noticed that many don't differentiate between attraction and lust, or being tempted by a thought and continuing to dwell and fantasize about it.

 

If you haven't read this blog post by an attorney and former Gothardite you might find it interesting.

 

http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-duggars-how-fundamentalisms.html

[catz]

I'm sorry the girls are hurt.  But if the Duggars walk away from the show and the media and refuse interviews, this will be beyond past tense in 60 days or less.  They can turn off the internet and avoid media.  The girls especially already live pretty sheltered lives.  The most sane celebrity types I know have said as much when they are interviewed - they avoid all the gossip media good or bad.  It can mess with your head.  Continuing to talk is giving them (the media) ammunition. The only reason this thread is going on is because the Duggars agreed to an interview. 

 

Sorry JB's money making kid exploiting enterprise is over.  But not really,.

 

If this discussion and coverage empowers more girls to report, I think that would be a very positive outcome.  If it encourages parents to have open discussions with their kids before puberty about sexuality, that would be another very positive outcome.  I personally don't think because this discussion happened, it's all necessarily negative. 

[Scarlett]

This makes me remember something years ago, when my sister had her first daughter.  She and her husband had a terrible relationship, and she's a bit of an unstable person anyway.  Once when husband tried to actually help out by changing a diaper, she yelled at him, get away from her, are you some kind of pervert?  

 

This stuck with me, because it HORRIFIED me that she would accuse her husband like that when he was just trying to be a father.  I remember thinking how could you even be married to someone if you really did think that about them?  (She didn't, just to clarify, she was just being mean and awful.)  But these Duggar girls are somehow getting the impression this is EXPECTED?  Or on the same level as *normal* sexual thoughts about fellow teenagers or whatever?  

 

If I had a teen boy, I would totally expect him to be physically attracted to girls of his age level.  THAT is normal.  It is not normal to EXPECT him to be interested in fondling babies or children.  

 

There is a difference between keeping your eyes open and not ignoring signs that something might be wrong, and EXPECTING that your son or husband might have those feelings and that you need to set up protections ahead of time.

 

(I am including husbands here, because if you expect that of your sons, why would you NOT expect it of your husband?  I don't get that.)

 

 

My son is 15.  He is definitely a normal 15 year old in the hormone department.  We are close friends with many families....some of the friends his age have younger siblings...from 1 year on up.  We were bowling this past week and the parents were right there...sitting behind them as they played.  The one year old was being passed from teen to teen depending on who was bowling. My son has always been good with babies...instinctively knowing how to hold one on his hip where I see other young men and even fathers hold babies like a sack of potatoes.  LOL....anyway, he was bouncing the baby on his knees....I was watching him carefully....and he was much more interested in the 14 year old girl next to him than the baby.  :)  

 

Then I was watching another teen boy about 15 with a little 9 year old girl.  She was irritating him so he grabbed her hands and put them over her head and sort of made her clap....  As I watched these interactions I realized that I look for signs all of the time of inappropriateness. That is what all this mess has done to us.  

 

My son has asked me a few questions about the Duggar scandal.  It has been good dialogue...him thinking about how WRONG it would be for a boy his age to touch a 4 year old.  That was one of his questions...how old?  I think he was thinking the kids were like two teens ...he didn't even realize at first they were siblings.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 How is the whole family being punished?

As for your second paragraph--I've never had a similar experience. No molesting by creepy relatives, no sex-exploration with siblings or playmates.

Do you see how making excuses for Josh's behavior could be construed as making light of the fact of molestation? Do you think it's  family-culture to celebrate( by having them make millions on a television show) when they truly believe that this is just something boys do? I realize you probably don't watch or care, but there's a whole lot of people that do. If you mean punishing them by taking away their multi milion dollar pay, then that's the price they are paying for being liars and hypocrites. Shows come and go, and there's new shills and suckers born every minute.

 

The sisters said they felt like they were being punished.

 

I don't think they made excuses.  According to what I read they put locks on the doors after it happened and brought him for counseling.  What more were they supposed to have done?

Trust me, their views and philosophies are as alien to me as anything could get.  I'm not trying to defend them.  However, I don't recall them ever claiming they were perfect. 

[Guest]

These things have made me more cautious in protecting my own children, and not to overly trust others. I have also told my children about these incidents, in order to help them know that we want to protect them. I know what they did was wrong. I avoided the one who grabbed me. I wouldn't want them to have done anything like that to others--i.e., if the two older men were still alive, I would do something to protect others from them. Yet, when I look back on the incidents, I can't honestly say that I wish they were jailed or anything like that. I didn't need counseling. I occasionally think about these things when abuse is brought up, but more in a curious way, asking myself, "Was I traumatized and didn't realize it?" It is true the nursing home incident upset me a lot. But more in the way that the personnel should have been warned to watch out for him and protect others from him.

 

So when the girls say that they have forgiven him and that he changed, I believe them. I do agree that forgiveness does not equal trust, in that I would be very careful to protect my children from any situations where he could abuse them. But I keep thinking that maybe we really are traumatizing them more by saying they should be traumatized and he should be jailed than by the actual incidents. I don't see it as necessarily a result of their ATI home background, because I didn't have that, but think I might feel similarly to them. I don't know--I find this a little confusing.

Jaybee, thank you sharing your stories. I do think the first story, where you cooperated by having a look in trade for a look, is something that happens often, to a lot of kids, in a lot of interactions (cousins, family friends, siblings, etc.). I'm not saying it's ideal, but I think it probably happens often and isn't usually traumatic. I think the first things Josh was accused of were not, shall we say, jail-worthy, and I would not march my kid to jeuvie for it. To me, the more alarming things were 1) escalation/boldness; 2) go for a younger child/sibling; and 3) repeating and escalating after (supposedly) confessing, which indicates her understood how wrong it was.

 

I think, in your own incidents, the "benefit" you enjoyed was in not having to see/be around those males again and again, let alone daily, let alone publically; i.e., in national recognition. These are the things I Think are most wrong in the Duggar case. Also think it's "interesting" that Jessa and Jill are being the spokespersons, yet they suffered the milder/less extreme incidents.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

The sisters said they felt like they were being punished.

 

I don't think they made excuses. According to what I read they put locks on the doors after it happened and brought him for counseling. What more were they supposed to have done?

Trust me, their views and philosophies are as alien to me as anything could get. I'm not trying to defend them. However, I don't recall them ever claiming they were perfect.

They didn't get him counseling. They sent him to build houses.

They then thought it was appropriate to go around calling other people child molesters.

[Shahrazad]

The sisters said they felt like they were being punished.

 

I don't think they made excuses.  According to what I read they put locks on the doors after it happened and brought him for counseling.  What more were they supposed to have done?

Trust me, their views and philosophies are as alien to me as anything could get.  I'm not trying to defend them.  However, I don't recall them ever claiming they were perfect. 

 

Things they could've done:

 

- Taken action when the behavior first started

- Reported it when they realized it was escalating

- Removed Josh from the home long-term

- Gotten Josh real, non ATI therapy

- Gotten the girls real, non ATI therapy

- Learned some humility

- Not minimized and white washed the whole event

- Opted not to put their entire lives on camera and the public eye

- Not spoken publicly against anyone's legal and victimless sexual proclivities

- Not forced their daughters to both live with and serve their older brother as a respected man of the house

- Not allowed their daughters to be used as babysitters for the man who sexually assaulted them and his wife

- Not raised their daughters with an emphasis on purity and the idea that a woman who had been touched by a man is essentially a dirty, used, product.

- Not equivocated sexual assault with consensual sexual behavior.

- Gotten him real therapy before encouraging him to 'court' and start procreating a gaggle of his own little girls.

- Once the news broke, they could've chosen to retire out of the public eye to deal with the repercussions rather than going on an interview to fabricate lies which can easily be proven false by reading the police report.

- They could've opted not to parade their abused daughters on tv interviews so that they could sit there and defend their abuser (who is nowhere to be seen).

- They could quit making excuses for their son and give half as much consideration to their daughters, his victims.

 

I'm sure I've missed a few. Should I go on?

 

ETA: Oh, how about not instilled in their daughters the mindset that the aforementioned "precautions" are necessary in the home to prevent your totally normal son from "stumbling" and by stumbling we mean perving on, molesting, sexually assaulting, or raping his little, prepubescent sisters? 

 

Rather than taking precautions by putting some locks on the doors, maybe they could've considered that the girls shouldn't have to have locks put on the doors so that they won't be assaulted by their older brother whom they insist to keep in the house? Not giving all of their sons a pass on helping the girls care for the children they're parenting in place of Michelle because the sight of a baby parts during a diaper change will provoke their remaining, non-pedophile sons into assaulting his sisters?!

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

They didn't get him counseling. They sent him to build houses.

They then thought it was appropriate to go around calling other people child molesters.

 

That is not what the article I read said.

 

Unless that is what they call counseling.

 

Again, not trying to defend them.  It just seems wrong to expect them to be perfect. 

[Guest]

Thanks for this. It is unexpectedly... factual and even-toned. Their treatment of this series of unfortunate events might turn out to be the pivot point on which InTouch transforms itself into real journalism (?). One can hope.

I'm not holding my breath, but random acts of journalism do occasionally happen ;)

[Guest]

I mean it's pathetic that people have to keep bringing up Lena and Polanski and Hollywood, because I know they're saying," look at all the liberals who molest!!" " where's All the democrat outrage?" This is not a Democrat vs Republican topic, no matter how many try to spin it that way. It's the same asinine way that" why aren't more Muslims outraged" gets spewed when there's a terrorist act.

I don't know who you're referring to, but my point wasn't anything to do with liberals - not everyone in Hollywood, especially in the bankrolling class, is liberal. I think it's just really frustrating to know how much abuse has gone on without much of a peep from the same media who are diving into this. I'd love to see some of these magazines turning over the rocks in their own backyard to help protect children being victimized and bring some justice to those who have been hurt badly in past years and silenced or banished entirely if they tried to have their abuses addressed.

 

Some of the reports are absolutely heinous, and much of the abuse has been perpetrated in semi-public places like parties, restaurants, backstage at shows, etc.

[umsami]

Just to point out a quote from the transcript of the interview which is SO alarming:

 

"But as we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they've had similar things happen in their families."

 

I'll also add that Josh went to his parents (according to them) three different times and basically asked for help.  That is really sad.  They definitely failed him.  Other than ATI construction boot camp (and possibly ALERT), he did not get help until children's services got involved after the Oprah call.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know enough about them or this to even have a real conversation with you about it.  I don't agree with their religion, views, and practices, but I do think they have shown humility by agreeing to give an interview.  I don't think you can accuse them of completely lacking in humility. 

 

Things they could've done:

 

- Taken action when the behavior first started

- Reported it when they realized it was escalating

- Removed Josh from the home long-term

- Gotten Josh real, non ATI therapy

- Gotten the girls real, non ATI therapy

- Learned some humility

- Not minimized and white washed the whole event

- Opted not to put their entire lives on camera and the public eye

- Not spoken publicly against anyone's legal and victimless sexual proclivities

- Not forced their daughters to both live with and serve their older brother as a respected man of the house

- Not allowed their daughters to be used as babysitters for the man who sexually assaulted them and his wife

- Not raised their daughters with an emphasis on purity and the idea that a woman who had been touched by a man is essentially a dirty, used, product.

- Not equivocated sexual assault with consensual sexual behavior.

- Gotten him real therapy before encouraging him to 'court' and start procreating a gaggle of his own little girls.

- Once the news broke, they could've chosen to retire out of the public eye to deal with the repercussions rather than going on an interview to fabricate lies which can easily be proven false by reading the police report.

- They could've opted not to parade their abused daughters on tv interviews so that they could sit there and defend their abuser (who is nowhere to be seen).

- They could quit making excuses for their son and give half as much consideration to their daughters, his victims.

 

I'm sure I've missed a few. Should I go on?

 

ETA: Oh, how about not instilled in their daughters the mindset that the aforementioned "precautions" are necessary in the home to prevent your totally normal son from "stumbling" and by stumbling we mean perving on, molesting, sexually assaulting, or raping his little, prepubescent sisters? 

 

Rather than taking precautions by putting some locks on the doors, maybe they could've considered that the girls shouldn't have to have locks put on the doors so that they won't be assaulted by their older brother whom they insist to keep in the house? Not giving all of their sons a pass on helping the girls care for the children they're parenting in place of Michelle because the sight of a baby parts during a diaper change will provoke their remaining, non-pedophile sons into assaulting his sisters?!

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know who you're referring to, but my point wasn't anything to do with liberals - not everyone in Hollywood, especially in the bankrolling class, is liberal. I think it's just really frustrating to know how much abuse has gone on without much of a peep from the same media who are diving into this. I'd love to see some of these magazines turning over the rocks in their own backyard to help protect children being victimized and bring some justice to those who have been hurt badly in past years and silenced or banished entirely if they tried to have their abuses addressed.

 

Some of the reports are absolutely heinous, and much of the abuse has been perpetrated in semi-public places like parties, restaurants, backstage at shows, etc.

 

Both sides do exactly the same things.  And then it leaves me wondering what is even true.  It gets tiring either way.

 

I just find it really hard to believe that if these people were truly heinous that they'd agree to have their lives put on public display for years.  That would be pretty darn nuts.  It's nuts anyway. 

[HS Mom in NC]

What people expected the Duggar parents (or any parents) to do was:

 

1. Remove Josh from the home and put in the home of relatives or friends with no children.

2. Get professional, licensed psychological help for Josh and the girls. There are plenty of licensed psychologists and psychiatrists and family counselors who are Christians. They could've contacted anyone in those categories and asked for professional, objective assessments and help or referrals to the right kind of help.

 

If they had followed through with both of those, people wouldn't be so upset and they'd be more empathetic.

 

Please stop using nonsense phrasing like "expecting perfection." Since we all know no one can be or expects anyone else to be perfect,  it's a meaningless phrase.  What we do expect is some common sense.  When we're talking about teens molesting children (probably pedophilia but I'm not a medical professional in that field so I don't know if there's another specific clinical term that might better apply) who include his sisters (incest) we're dealing with issues that require a professional with medical licensing.  Pastors, elders, and/or mentors aren't able to handle it.

If a child had any other medical issue that's beyond normal sniffles, fevers, bumps, bruises, etc. we expect the parents to seek out a specialist or at least contact their ped for an assessment and/or referral to the right kind of help.  That's how physical health works and how mental health works too.

[SparklyUnicorn]

What people expected the Duggar parents (or any parents) to do was:

 

1. Remove Josh from the home and put in the home of relatives or friends with no children.

2. Get professional, licensed psychological help for Josh and the girls. There are plenty of licensed psychologists and psychiatrists and family counselors who are Christians. They could've contacted anyone in those categories and asked for professional, objective assessments and help or referrals to the right kind of help.

 

If they had followed through with both of those, people wouldn't be so upset and they'd be more empathetic.

 

Please stop using nonsense phrasing like "expecting perfection." Since we all know no one can be or expects anyone else to be perfect,  it's a meaningless phrase.  What we do expect is some common sense.  When we're talking about teens molesting children (probably pedophilia but I'm not a medical professional in that field so I don't know if there's another specific clinical term that might better apply) who include his sisters (incest) we're dealing with issues that require a professional with medical licensing.  Pastors, elders, and/or mentors aren't able to handle it.

 

If a child had any other medical issue that's beyond normal sniffles, fevers, bumps, bruises, etc. we expect the parents to seek out a specialist or at least contact their ped for an assessment and/or referral to the right kind of help.  That's how physical health works and how mental health works too.

 

You make this sound so easy though.  If one of my kids did this, I would of course do whatever it took to deal with the situation, but I do not have anywhere to send my kids.  And they are my kids so this would not be so simple.  He touched his siblings.  He did not rape his siblings.  Right?  Not saying that's better, but that is different. 

 

And you'd be surprised what "professionals" do in these instances.  They don't always send people away.  I know this for a fact and from a personal experience. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh and if we want to discuss how mental health works,I have a lot to add to that conversation.  A LOT.  You cannot believe how sorry the state of mental health services are in this country. 

[HS Mom in NC]

You make this sound so easy though.  If one of my kids did this, I would of course do whatever it took to deal with the situation, but I do not have anywhere to send my kids.  And they are my kids so this would not be so simple.  He touched his siblings.  He did not rape his siblings.  Right?  Not saying that's better, but that is different. 

 

And you'd be surprised what "professionals" do in these instances.  They don't always send people away.  I know this for a fact and from a personal experience. 

 

Of course it's easy to look up the names of child psychologists, psychiatrists and family counselors in your area online.  I know.  I've done it.  Not for a situation like this, but for one of my kids who needed some mental health help. One of my brothers did this for his kids and his wife who mental health issues and it obviously affected the kids.  It's not hard at all.  He even contacted a pastor friend who gave him a long list of names of Christian psychologists/psychiatrists in his city and the cities around him.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Of course it's easy to look up the names of child psychologists, psychiatrists and family counselors in your area online.  I know.  I've done it.  Not for a situation like this, but for one of my kids who needed some mental health help. One of my brothers did this for his kids and his wife who mental health issues and it obviously affected the kids.  It's not hard at all.  He even contacted a pastor friend who gave him a long list of names of Christian psychologists/psychiatrists in his city and the cities around him.

 

The Duggar issue aside, this is what is supposed to happen and there are supposed to be options, but you know it just does not work as well as this.  Not at all in my experience.  And I have a lot of experience with this.  It's in fact very hard to find services for a lot of mental health issues. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Oh and if we want to discuss how mental health works,I have a lot to add to that conversation.  A LOT.  You cannot believe how sorry the state of mental health services are in this country. 

 

Well, I've had great experiences with ones in my area.  We've seen a family counselor, my oldest has seen both a psychologist and a psychiatrist, there were great resources from a social worker at our local hospital.  So are you really suggesting someone with a serious issue like a teen molesting little kids shouldn't seek out any professional mental health resources at all?  How do you justify that in your mind?

[QueenCat]

I don't think they made excuses.  According to what I read they put locks on the doors after it happened and brought him for counseling.  What more were they supposed to have done?

 

 

Removed him from the household. Found a family member without daughters to have him live with until the girls were adults and could choose whether or not to be around him.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, I've had great experiences with ones in my area.  We've seen a family counselor, my oldest has seen both a psychologist and a psychiatrist, there were great resources from a social worker at our local hospital.  So are you really suggesting someone with a serious issue like a teen molesting little kids shouldn't seek out any professional mental health resources at all?  How do you justify that in your mind?

 

Not once did I say that.  My point is there aren't always a ton of mental health resources.

 

I don't want to give out more personal information than I already have, but lets just say I was not helped by resources.  My family was not helped.  Nothing in the end came of it, but people just agreeing not to press charges.  The options were to hope things got better without good help or to put someone in prison who had behaved in a certain way because of severe mental health issues.  Neither choice was good.  Neither was helpful.  Neither had much of an outcome anyone could feel good about. 

[HS Mom in NC]

The Duggar issue aside, this is what is supposed to happen and there are supposed to be options, but you know it just does not work as well as this.  Not at all in my experience.  And I have a lot of experience with this.  It's in fact very hard to find services for a lot of mental health issues. 

 

I don't know anything of the sort.  My experience has been exactly the opposite.  I cringe to think someone might read your posts and believe them and choose not to even try to get help for such serious issues. 

 

Go online, look of "psychiatrist" "Psychologist" "Licensed Family Therapist"

Call your local hospital and ask to speak to their social worker-ours handed us a thick stack of referral numbers and contact information for every specialist you could think of

Got to your GP or Ped

Go to the local walk in clinic-they'll give you names and contact information

Go to your medical insurance company's website

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know anything of the sort.  My experience has been exactly the opposite.  I cringe to think someone might read your posts and believe them and choose not to even try to get help for such serious issues. 

 

Go online, look of "psychiatrist" "Psychologist" "Licensed Family Therapist"

Call your local hospital and ask to speak to their social worker-ours handed us a thick stack of referral numbers and contact information for every specialist you could think of

Got to your GP or Ped

Go to the local walk in clinic-they'll give you names and contact information

Go to your medical insurance company's website

 

I'm not saying don't try.  I'm saying there isn't enough out there.  I am saying I think something should be done about that fact.  Stop twisting what I'm saying.  Stop assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. I believe you, but I'm telling you this has not been my experience. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm not saying don't try.  I'm saying there isn't enough out there.  I am saying I think something should be done about that fact.  Stop twisting what I'm saying.  Stop assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. I believe you, but I'm telling you this has not been my experience. 

 

You're off topic and personalizing. You may need more time to emotionally recover from your own personal traumas before engaging in discussion about other people's personal traumas.  It's OK to take time to heal. 

 

This discussion is about the Duggars and what they should have done vs. what they actually did.  The point is they should've sought out licensed, professional medical help for Josh and for the girls.  They didn't do that. They should've kept him away from children.  They didn't do that.  So far, based on the information we have access to, they didn't even TRY to get the kind of help their kids needed. They needed licensed professionals to help with pedophilia and incest. That profound lack of judgment on their part is reason they've earned much deserved anger.  It's the mental health equivalent of parents using only prayer and essential oils to "help" their child who has cancer.

[unsinkable]

Just to point out a quote from the transcript of the interview which is SO alarming:

 

"But as we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they've had similar things happen in their families."

 

I'll also add that Josh went to his parents (according to them) three different times and basically asked for help. That is really sad. They definitely failed him. Other than ATI construction boot camp (and possibly ALERT), he did not get help until children's services got involved after the Oprah call.

A lot of families HAVE had children who have been the victims of sexual abuse. It is not know that the quote is simply referring to sibling sexual abuse. But it is also true that a lot of families have children who are victims of sibling sexual abuse.

 

It is alarming because it is true...but it is not known the exact numbers or exact relationships of the victims and abusers they are referencing.

[*Lulu*]

I'm not saying don't try. I'm saying there isn't enough out there. I am saying I think something should be done about that fact. Stop twisting what I'm saying. Stop assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. I believe you, but I'm telling you this has not been my experience.

This is one of those things that is so different from place to place, even within a single state.

 

When you move into issues that require specialized training it gets even more iffy. Locally we have a ton of therapists, psychologists, and physcologists. Seriously can't swing a dead cat (or a live one for that matter) without hitting two or three.

 

The number that specialize in trauma, much smaller. The number that specialize in children's mental health, pretty small as well.

 

There are lots of good mental health practitioners out there. But it is not realistic to expect that the first call you make will yield someone who is truly comfortable and competent in the area of expertise you need or that they will be a good fit for you.

 

Mix in insurance coverage (or lack there of) and mental health can easily be a nightmare area under the US healthcare system.

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is one of those things that is so different from place to place, even within a single state.

 

When you move into issues that require specialized training it gets even more iffy. Locally we have a ton of therapists, psychologists, and physcologists. Seriously can't swing a dead cat (or a live one for that matter) without hitting two or three.

 

The number that specialize in trauma, much smaller. The number that specialize in children's mental health, pretty small as well.

 

There are lots of good mental health practitioners out there. But it is not realistic to expect that the first call you make will yield someone who is truly comfortable and competent in the area of expertise you need or that they will be a good fit for you.

 

Mix in insurance coverage (or lack there of) and mental health can easily be a nightmare area under the US healthcare system.

 

I've had several personal experiences of trying to find various helps and really going crazy trying just to find nothing in the end.  I really don't know why that was.  In some instances the best that could be done for my family members was to put them in a regular hospital where they'd just hang out for a few days to try to be stabilized on drugs.  The drugs were in quantities that basically just made them numb.  They could barely function.  And as a family member living with that, I was given almost no help whatsoever.

 

I always wished that I could change that somehow and I think about it, but I wouldn't know where to begin. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

YES!!!  This is the part Sparkly Unicorn was trying to get across, I think...  I could care less about the Duggers but when you are talking about the run of the mill family, I can see why they don't get the help they need.  First it would be hard to get out of denial and when you do, help would be really hard to find I'm afraid.

 

Yeah they can't really use the excuse they didn't have the money, but that is also a massive stumbling block for a lot of people. 

 

My guess is a large number of the prison population are just people who couldn't afford any sort of help.  State mental hospitals aren't much better than prisons either.

[HS Mom in NC]

This wasn't for molesting but just my psychiatric issues...  I called around NO ONE was taking new patients in a 2 hour radius.  Hubby played his doctor card, so someone did see me but it took 3 months...  So assuming it will be easy for someone to get in may be a false assumption.  I'm not saying they shouldn't try, but it probably won't be as easy as make a phone call and get it handled...

 

Yep.  Sometimes that happens.  So you make the appointment for 3 months out.  That's not such hurdle when the person doing the molesting has been sent to a house with no children. Or, you make an appointment somewhere that involves a day of driving in a situation where you really need to talk to someone soon in addition to having the 3 month appointment nearby for follow up from there.

 

Sometimes it takes dozens and dozens of phone calls to get it handled.  My oldest (not a minor) called a few dozen places before she found someone taking new patients. I called a dozen family counselors before I found one available. I don't consider that "hard" or "not easy."  That's really not a big deal to me because getting someone mental health help is so important that driving a long way and making lots of phone calls are worth the effort.  If my child had a physical medical issue that required going a long way I'd do it. It took us months to get into my middle child's pediatric neurologist and her immunologist.

[mommaduck]

Sorry if I contributed to the bogging down here! Sure, that is only one illustration, but it's another reason to guess that Michelle isn't a normal / healthy individual.

 

 

 

It would take a lot to convince me that she is 'normal' in any sense of the word. It's not just the blank stare, it's also the fact that she apparently never raises her voice (this is allegedly true off-camera as well). Sorry, but NOBODY, no matter how calm and collected a personality, can raise 19 kids without ever once losing their cool, unless there is something causing that flattened affect, whether that's a substance she takes or perhaps just the result of years of abuse from JB. And the puke-inducing husband-worship! It's not just that she is ultra conservative and believes that the husband should be head of the home. There are plenty of women who have that belief and are still intelligent, outspoken and assertive when they want to be. They believe their God put their husband in charge; they don't believe that their husband IS their God.

 

Then again, having said all that, I know nothing of the family personally. It's always possible that Michelle's persona, along with the whole darn thing, has been manufactured by them in consultation with the 'reality' television folks. I find it ironic and faintly amusing that so many people who express shock at how humans were exhibited in zoos and freak shows in the past are nevertheless so keen to engage with the kind of sordid circus enacted by people like the Duggars. (That was a comment, not a criticism. I plead guilty to bouts of inexplicable fascination about them.)

 

 

I have seen this in various ultra conservative groups that were very cult-like. In one group, I confronted the minister on the gossip in the community. Stepford Wives, EVERYONE knew when I came and went, when I had company, when I'd visited someone inside or outside the community, etc (a full year of this). The minister suggested I start taking anti-depressants to "help you conform". I know one of the local doctors (not part of the group, not American, did not plan to see him but I got shuffled to the gynecologist when I went in for a non-female issue and my doctor wasn't in that day) tried before to get me to take his prescription of Prozac. (I was there for severe neck pain and and blinding headache) It was just coming out about the suicide rate of those on Prozac, the zombie effect, and I wasn't depressed nor there for depression. His reason was that ALL women should be on Prozac. ALL the women in the community were on Prozac. He gives ALL his patients Prozac. Told me to trust him, that I would be back asking him for Prozac. God help any woman in Southern Illinois involved with a specific Mennonite group. Yep, my friends that had joined...were on Prozac. My SIL, I don't know, I know that girl is a chameleon and can be her own Prozac. Good Lord, after months of saying "something is not right here", we were out of there and others that had been raised Amish, but had joined, were leaving with us! We knew one family that was staying because the wife insisted. The husband was raised on the outside and wanted to leave. However, that woman (loved her) was a firestorm in and of herself and I believe she had something on all of the ministry, because she could shut them up when needed.

 

Yes, I firmly believe Michelle is on SOMETHING! Yes, my opinion. No, I have no facts or evidence. However, NO, I don't believe this is "just how she is". Not one bit. 

[Shahrazad]

 

KELLY: Like Huckabee said that. I know he’s a friend of your family. Michelle, let me ask you, because you were in the news for making a robo call that suggested transgender people might want to go into the bathrooms of girls — locker rooms of girls and that they may be child molesters. Folks have used that in the past week against you saying how could you unfairly, in their view, compare transgender people to child molesters, knowing what you know about Josh?

M. DUGGAR: I think that protecting young girls and not allowing young men or men in general to go into a girls’ locker room is just common sense.

KELLY: But this is different because you injected child molestation into it.

J.B. DUGGAR: I think you actually said pedophile, and a pedophile is an adult that preys on children. Josh was actually 14 and just turned 15 when he did what he did, and I think the legal definition was 16 and up for being an adult preying on a child. So he was a child preying on a child.

 

 

 

Translation: Our comments about gay and transgender people weren't hypocritical because we compared them using the term 'pedophile' and Josh is a child molester, not a pedophile, as he was 15 and you have to be 16 to be considered a pedophile.

 

Yeah, picture of humility right there. No, humble, remorseful people wouldn't go on a big hyped up interview with a sympathetic interviewer (obviously trying to salvage their show and put a positive PR spin on things) and drag the victims on there to insist it wasn't a big deal and Josh is a good man. You and I must have very different views of humility if you think the fact they did that interview shows humility.

 

 

 

You make this sound so easy though.  If one of my kids did this, I would of course do whatever it took to deal with the situation, but I do not have anywhere to send my kids.  And they are my kids so this would not be so simple.  He touched his siblings.  He did not rape his siblings.  Right?  Not saying that's better, but that is different. 

 

This is not you. These are people who have plenty of resources and the means to send their child outside of the house till he is able to live on his own, even if that means one parent going with him. I'm not sure how touching your single-digit kid sister's vagina as you read her a story on your lap in front of people would warrant lenience just because it isn't rape. He was clearly escalating. There seems to be some fishiness about the 17 year old thing that there is no solid information on? So, we have no way to know whether he just suddenly stopped even though getting caught didn't stop him but we do certainly know that he stayed in the house, the burden was placed on the girls, and the Duggar parents decided to add some more little girls to the house for good measure (and a ratings boost of course!)

[mommaduck]

Nobody has ever had a thread glorifying the crimes of Roman Polanski or Woody Allen on these forums so far as I know. A few people wanted to give Bill Cosby the benefit of the doubt though...

 

There is no pattern of excusing 'liberal' crimes whilst condemning Christians for exactly the same thing.

 

There is no blanket condemnation of Christianity in any of the Duggar threads.

 

One member does, but most of us know to ignore it ;)

[albeto.]

"But as we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they've had similar things happen in their families."

 

0.o

[mommaduck]

Oh, I'm in albeto's fan club, so I'll have to disagree with you about 'condemnation'. Intelligent critique ? Sure :)

 

Different points of perspective, maybe LOL!