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gingersmom
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I'm not sure most murderers are serial killers. Is this true?

I don't think so.

 

But I would think that the re-offense rate for some types of murder would be higher than others. Same with other crime catagories.

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See, I wasn't even thinking of Jim Bob, but of course, now I had the momentary thought....and will go pour bleach in my ears in hopes that it reaches my brain.

 

I was thinking perhaps of Ben or Derrick or I have no idea....are there some cute fundy guys out there? On FreeJinger, they talk a lot about Erin Bates' husband being very "defrauding", but I have no idea what he looks like.

Chad is nice looking. And I just want to say how caring of a husband he seems to be. Did you ever see the picture of their bedroom? He wants her to be happy no matter what.

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I think it speaks to the lies. When someone is lying, they often speak in circuitous, rambling non-sentences like that. 

I speak that way nearly all the time. And I don't intentionally lie. I just think hard when I talk, and take an annoyingly long time to say anything unless it is for something I prepare for specifically.

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Yes.  The % of kids who have been molested by close relatives is easy to find.  It is also clear that a high % are never officially reported.  In addition I can easily think of a list of people I know personally who have had this happen to them (males and females).  And you can't tell by looking at a person whether they have done that, especially if it was something they did only while they were young teens and have not done it since.

 

And as for the false accusations, there are plenty of documented cases of that, as well as at least one person I know IRL who was falsely accused of rape.

 

In fact, I can and do believe that both of the following are true at the same time:  there are rape victims who never report, and there are rape accusations which are false.  Neither the unreported crimes nor the false reports are acceptable.  One can (and should) be opposed to both.

 

That said, I don't consider adult-on-adult rape to be comparable to sibling-on-sibling molestation (touching) where the perp is 14-15yo or younger.

 

ETA I don't recall saying child sexual abuse statistics are overblown.  I do recall saying that about college students because that was backed up by a published study or analysis as well as my personal experience.

 

 

I guess you could think of it this way.  If we take the lower #, 1/6 children are molested in some form or fashion (either by a stranger or known perp), and I'd wager that one perp has typically multiple victims, but let's say 1 perp averages 5 victims, that's still 1/30 people who have perpetrated against children.  If we agree that many incidents are unreported, and if we agree that most of us know more than 30 people, odds are we know someone who has perpetrated against kids.  It's just a numbers game.  Even if 1 perp averages 10 victims, that's still 1/60 who has perpetrated. Sad reality :(  Children are vulnerable, and vulnerable people are always at risk for exploitation and abuse.  

 

I had read a few years ago that sibling molestation was fairly rare (i.e. in the tallies of molestation events), something having to do with inverse sexual imprinting?  

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See, I wasn't even thinking of Jim Bob, but of course, now I had the momentary thought....and will go pour bleach in my ears in hopes that it reaches my brain.

 

I was thinking perhaps of Ben or Derrick or I have no idea....are there some cute fundy guys out there?  On FreeJinger, they talk a lot about Erin Bates' husband being very "defrauding", but I have no idea what he looks like.

 

I don't now how old you are, but if you have even a drop of cougar in you, check out Chad Paine.  He's not only easy on the eyes, he's a genuinely wonderful guy who also has many real skills. No joke- this guy is a keeper. Erin won the fundie jackpot.  

 

Derick looks like a dork to me and Ben is not only still a child to me, he's annoying as h*&&.  

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I want that cupcake.  I love coffee-flavored everything, but not actual coffee. (Strange, I know.)   Maybe the cupcake name should start with a "J"....so Jinger's Jammin' Java J-licious Cupcake?   (Can I confess that even though I know it's supposed to be pronounced Ginger, I always say in my mind, "Jinger"....like rhymes with ding.   

 

 

Love your cupcake name! And like you, I always pronounce it as if it rhymes with 'ringer'.  

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Changing tone of things hopefully....

 

1) Which Duggar, if any, would you like to dress in a kilt? Would a kilt be considered modest for a man? Is it defrauding? ;)

 

2) Which Duggar would make the best cupcake? What would you name your Duggar inspired cupcake and what flavor would it be? Do tater tots ever go in Cupcakes?

I don't want to see any if them in kilts. I have no idea who would be good cupcake baker, BUT I DO think Jessa should become a supermodel. She's gorgeous!
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I'm not sure most murderers are serial killers. Is this true?

My point is that I would still think of a murderer as a murderer even years later, while SKL seemed to be suggesting that people forget all about something like that, while still considering a child molester to be a child molester.

 

Personally, I would prefer to err on the side of avoiding known murderers. And really, if someone murdered one person and got caught, he's probably not going to announce to the world that he killed other people, even if he did. And of course, he will probably also talk about how he was unjustly convicted.

 

And even if, as SKL stated, most murders are crimes of passion, I'm thinking I probably don't want to accidentally annoy a murderer because maybe he has some serious and unresolved anger management issues.

 

"Well, sure I killed Marge, but she burned the waffles that morning and it made me really mad so I had to do it. I swear to you that if she hadn't burned those waffles, she would almost definitely still be alive today." ;)

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My point is that I would still think of a murderer as a murderer even years later, while SKL seemed to be suggesting that people forget all about something like that, while still considering a child molester to be a child molester.

 

Personally, I would prefer to err on the side of avoiding known murderers. And really, if someone murdered one person and got caught, he's probably not going to announce to the world that he killed other people, even if he did. And of course, he will probably also talk about how he was unjustly convicted.

 

And even if, as SKL stated, most murders are crimes of passion, I'm thinking I probably don't want to accidentally annoy a murderer because maybe he has some serious and unresolved anger management issues.

 

"Well, sure I killed Marge, but she burned the waffles that morning and it made me really mad so I had to do it. I swear to you that if she hadn't burned those waffles, she would almost definitely still be alive today." ;)

I worked at a company that hired a lot of ex cons. I know we had some murderers. The company did not hire rapists or child molesters, afaik. I do know that the biggest problem was with thieves. They had a lot of laptops, bikes, purses, etc stolen but no one was murdered. I don't know a thing about the hiring or screening process though. And I cannot imagine the liability if someone were murdered on the job by an ex con murderer.

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You can't expect people to be rehabilitated if they are unemployable because of their past.  I believe in giving people a chance to prove themselves trustworthy.  Of course precautions are taken beyond a point.

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Maybe you should start a poll and ask how many people here have worked with multiple convicted murderers at their jobs in law firms or accounting firms or in other offices. I'll bet you are among a very select few.

 

My mother has. But she was a nurse in a maximum security prison for 35 years. Specifically, she was a nurse in the psychiatric ward of a maximum security prison.

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My mother has. But she was a nurse in a maximum security prison for 35 years. Specifically, she was a nurse in the psychiatric ward of a maximum security prison.

OK, your mom wins. ;)

 

It takes a truly special kind of person to do a job like that for all those years. :hurray: Your mom must be pretty amazing. I would never have the nerve (or the skill) to handle her job.

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Yes. The % of kids who have been molested by close relatives is easy to find. It is also clear that a high % are never officially reported. In addition I can easily think of a list of people I know personally who have had this happen to them (males and females). And you can't tell by looking at a person whether they have done that, especially if it was something they did only while they were young teens and have not done it since.

 

And as for the false accusations, there are plenty of documented cases of that, as well as at least one person I know IRL who was falsely accused of rape.

 

In fact, I can and do believe that both of the following are true at the same time: there are rape victims who never report, and there are rape accusations which are false. Neither the unreported crimes nor the false reports are acceptable. One can (and should) be opposed to both.

 

That said, I don't consider adult-on-adult rape to be comparable to sibling-on-sibling molestation (touching) where the perp is 14-15yo or younger.

 

ETA I don't recall saying child sexual abuse statistics are overblown. I do recall saying that about college students because that was backed up by a published study or analysis as well as my personal experience.

There are many points in your post I agree with.

 

Overall there is still this feeling of something being off, which keeps me from saying, "of course I agree with you."

 

Maybe a little sleep and a lot of caffine will enable me to put my finger on it so I can articulate better.

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Changing tone of things hopefully....

 

1) Which Duggar, if any, would you like to dress in a kilt? Would a kilt be considered modest for a man? Is it defrauding? ;)

 

2) Which Duggar would make the best cupcake? What would you name your Duggar inspired cupcake and what flavor would it be? Do tater tots ever go in Cupcakes?

 

BWAAHAAHHAAA! I did catch a glimpse of a guy on one of the Duggar shows not very long ago; he was quite attractive. I was trying to figure out who he was (thought maybe one of the Lost Boys just grew up while we were busy watching Jill and Jessa) but I concluded that he must be a brother or relative of Ben Seewald. So, I vote him. Derrick could probably work a kilt, too, but I really only say that because I like Derrick and harbor a hope that he introduces a dose of normal into a nest of crazy.

 

From what I have seen of the show, vote for competant cupcake-maker probably would go to Jill. It would be cheesecake flavor with cherries on top. Just cause. Josie's cupcake would be tater tot, with canned peas on top.

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y on the eyes, he's a genuinely wonderful guy who also has many real skills. No joke- this guy is a keeper. Erin won the fundie jackpot

BEST. LINE. EVER!

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Your company just hires random murderers? And not just one murderer, but more than that? And everyone is just fine with that?

 

I'm sorry, but that seems very farfetched to me.

LOL, most of my employees are  convicted felons. Depends on where you live and what your business does. My assistant manager is a convicted felon and I trust her with large amounts of money/ my dd. We live in a place where the county motto is:

 

"Come on vacation, leave on probation."

 

The potential pool of employees without criminal records is not large here.

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I speak that way nearly all the time. And I don't intentionally lie. I just think hard when I talk, and take an annoyingly long time to say anything unless it is for something I prepare for specifically.

Omg. My dh, who is not a liar....takes forever to tell a story. He is like famous for it.

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LOL, most of my employees are convicted felons. Depends on where you live and what your business does. My assistant manager is a convicted felon and I trust her with large amounts of money/ my dd. We live in a place where the county motto is:

 

"Come on vacation, leave on probation."

 

The potential pool of employees without criminal records is not large here.

That's quite the motto! :lol:

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For a girl from Anna's family, marrying a Duggar would be like marrying a rock star or prince. Her family faces the real financial pressures of super large family, one income and limited education and here the Duggars are with a 7000sf home and money and a TV show. Far more IFB ATI followers live in cramped spaces with out enough grocery money than live like the Duggars or even comfortably middle class. And if you consider all sins, sexual and not as the same, she truly could just not grasp the risks.

 

Could it be possible that Anna was given the list of "safeguards" from her MIL?

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Could it be possible that Anna was given the list of "safeguards" from her MIL?

Michelle may have done exactly that. Most normal young women would have run screaming in the other direction if their future MIL told her that her loving fiance was a child molester and that she should be sure to follow this little to-do list to make sure he wasn't tempted by his future children, but apparently Anna isn't the average young woman.

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My point is that I would still think of a murderer as a murderer even years later, while SKL seemed to be suggesting that people forget all about something like that, while still considering a child molester to be a child molester.

 

Personally, I would prefer to err on the side of avoiding known murderers. And really, if someone murdered one person and got caught, he's probably not going to announce to the world that he killed other people, even if he did. And of course, he will probably also talk about how he was unjustly convicted.

 

And even if, as SKL stated, most murders are crimes of passion, I'm thinking I probably don't want to accidentally annoy a murderer because maybe he has some serious and unresolved anger management issues.

 

"Well, sure I killed Marge, but she burned the waffles that morning and it made me really mad so I had to do it. I swear to you that if she hadn't burned those waffles, she would almost definitely still be alive today." ;)

I dunno. I'll bet the odds of being killed by someone who has never killed before are far greater than being killed by someone who has. I believe the opposite is true for child molesters. See, child molesters are so repugnant that I'm defending the poor murderers who get lumped with them.

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Michelle may have done exactly that. Most normal young women would have run screaming in the other direction if their future MIL told her that her loving fiance was a child molester and that she should be sure to follow this little to-do list to make sure he wasn't tempted by his future children, but apparently Anna isn't the average young woman.

Breaking a courtship off is way different for folks heavily in IFB/ATI than your average modern people breaking off an engagement. In some cases it's social and future marriage suicide. It's reminiscent of the 18th century really and truly.

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Breaking a courtship off is way different for folks heavily in IFB/ATI than your average modern people breaking off an engagement. In some cases it's social and future marriage suicide. It's reminiscent of the 18th century really and truly.

Anna said Josh told her *before* they started courting. That he felt the need to tell her might suggest they were already so close to courting that calling off any future relationship would have the same effect.

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edited, but still, thank you for saying this. 

 

 

FWIW, I thought your post sounded just fine before you edited it. :)

 

 

Saw your post earlier, Albeto, when I was logged out and just wanted to say I agree with Catwoman. It was a perfectly nice post and looked fine to me too. I appreciated it ;). 

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Interesting. 

 

From the link:

 

 

Dr. Paula Bruce, a California clinical psychologist, told In Touch about the Duggars: “None of them acknowledged that this is predatory behavior. It’s classic. It’s got dominance and exploitation. The touching that happened when they were asleep and touching when they were awake, it sounds like escalating in violence because it became more forceful. There was an incident in the laundry room. That was showing a pattern of increasing aggression. That’s a pattern of someone who is becoming more sexually compulsive and increasingly so. That’s not the pattern of someone who is resolving their sexual compulsivity.â€

 

I wasn't aware his behavior was becoming more forceful. Is this statement consistent with reports? 

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Interesting.

 

From the link:

 

 

I wasn't aware his behavior was becoming more forceful. Is this statement consistent with reports?

Yes, with the police report. It started as touching while they were asleep. Then he cornered one girl in a laundry room while awake. And he molested another who was reading a book on his lap with others in the room. And that's what merely they told police.

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Yes, with the police report. It started as touching while they were asleep. Then he cornered one girl in a laundry room while awake. And he molested another who was reading a book on his lap with others in the room. And that's what merely they told police.

 

omg.

 

:(

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Yes, with the police report. It started as touching while they were asleep. Then he cornered one girl in a laundry room while awake. And he molested another who was reading a book on his lap with others in the room. And that's what merely they told police.

 

and his victims got younger. He started with the babysitter, yes? Then moved onto younger sisters, and then the 5 year old.

 

That pattern has been what has troubled me. That he moved from 'sleeping' girls to cornering someone in the laundry room to the 5 year old. He was def establishing a pattern and figuring out ways to not get caught. 

 

I truly believe that with appropriate treatment and intervention (NOT beating etc) a teen can be re-educated and can make changes in himself. However, if there is no real sex offender treatment and no change in the environment I do worry about how changes are going take place. 

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and his victims got younger. He started with the babysitter, yes? Then moved onto younger sisters, and then the 5 year old.

 

That pattern has been what has troubled me. That he moved from 'sleeping' girls to cornering someone in the laundry room to the 5 year old. He was def establishing a pattern and figuring out ways to not get caught. 

 

I truly believe that with appropriate treatment and intervention (NOT beating etc) a teen can be re-educated and can make changes in himself. However, if there is no real sex offender treatment and no change in the environment I do worry about how changes are going take place. 

 

What really troubles me is the combination of 'discipline' and minimizing the issue. They minimized it to the girls, saying things like 'inappropriate touch' and 'just seconds' and 'they weren't aware'.  And they told the police Josh was disciplined. We all know what that was, and I'm not talking about being sent away because the 'disciplined' comment was in reference to the earlier events, not the one that led to him being sent away.

 

If the girls are told the touch is no big deal, and are also being taught to be modest and not defraud men, and then when they DO tell the boy is beaten, will they be inclined to tell on him if it continues?

 

 

Because the risk of telling is awful- their brother is disciplined, they lives are further restricted with no more boys and girls alone together, and locks on bedroom doors, and maybe ramping up the modesty rules. And when they are old enough to court, the parents (and by that time the girls, too) are so afraid of what the boy might do, they only allow side hugs until they are married.  

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Out of curiosity, what is the appropriate treatment?  How is child molestation\insest treated?

 

My understanding is that the most effective treatment is cognitive therapy, but even then it's most effective for boys aged 10-14 who have some sort of neurological issue- MR, autism spectrum, etc.  This is because for them it genuinely is driven by curiosity, lack of boundaries, and impulse control issues.  They don't understand what they're doing so when they actually get it they're unlikely to offend again.

 

There is no effective treatment for a true pedophile.  One boardie suggested chemical castration can be effective, though not always.

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Out of curiosity, what is the appropriate treatment?  How is child molestation\insest treated?

 

People who treat sex offenders are licensed therapists who get further training and are certified in that treatment. It has its own modalities, testing methods, treatment etc. It is a specialization within the profession.  It is like there are doctors but some are GPs and some are dermatologists and some are OBs. A dermatologist doesn't deliver babies. 

 

 

Beyond that, some treatment providers further specialize in treatment of juvenile sex offenders. There is always a strong group therapy component to sex offender treatment and it would not be appropriate to have juvenile and adult sex offenders in the same group.  The reason for the group treatment (done with the offenders in a group and more than one therapist present) is that sex offenders are so manipulative that if they are given only individual therapy there is a danger of the therapist being manipulated.

 

As for the treatment methods specifically, you would have to ask someone with that specialty.

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I worked at a company that hired a lot of ex cons. I know we had some murderers. The company did not hire rapists or child molesters, afaik. I do know that the biggest problem was with thieves. They had a lot of laptops, bikes, purses, etc stolen but no one was murdered. I don't know a thing about the hiring or screening process though. And I cannot imagine the liability if someone were murdered on the job by an ex con murderer.

 

When I was in college, the school had an early-release-to-school agreement with the state department of corrections. It wasn't well known, but we had paroled felons of several varieties on campus. It became well known when, in short order, one of the guys was arrested for murder, and another for raping two little girls. If I remember correctly, they didn't bring in any new participants after that, and phased out the program.

 

I only knew about the program because I worked with one of the other guys in the program (a convicted murderer -- drug deal gone bad). He introduced me to one of his buddies, who was in the program, with neither of them being completely honest with me about why the buddy had been in prison. That season of my life took some bizarre twists and turns, to say the least. 

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I speak that way nearly all the time. And I don't intentionally lie. I just think hard when I talk, and take an annoyingly long time to say anything unless it is for something I prepare for specifically.

 

I'm with you on this. I dare say that when I speak, unless it's a prepared speech, I don't always put together complete sentences. And I'm sure my subjects and verbs aren't always in agreement. My thought processes don't always flow logically from one point to the next.

 

And when I'm emotionally invested in what I'm speaking about, even if I have made notes, I tend to ramble more. So I wouldn't assume that there were lies behind the disjointed answers.

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Yes, with the police report. It started as touching while they were asleep. Then he cornered one girl in a laundry room while awake. AndAnd he molested another who was reading a book on his lap with others in the room. And that's what merely they told police.

In the interview JB and M claimed their safeguards were working because Josh stopped molesting the girls in their rooms. I think I gasped at that point because it was obvious to me the attacks were actually getting more bold, from a girl asleep on the couch to an awake 5 y.o. with witnesses in the room, and then under the clothes. JB seemed to think the worst offenses were the ones in the girls' room and the others were no big deal, when anyone else can clearly see the escalation.

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In the interview JB and M claimed their safeguards were working because Josh stopped molesting the girls in their rooms. I think I gasped at that point because it was obvious to me the attacks were actually getting more bold, from a girl asleep on the couch to an awake 5 y.o. with witnesses in the room, and then under the clothes. JB seemed to think the worst offenses were the ones in the girls' room and the others were no big deal, when anyone else can clearly see the escalation.

 

That's a good point.  I wonder if the abuse in the rooms was more extensive than they've let on.

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I'm not following this case very closely; did the Duggars lie in the TV interview? The police reports say different things than what I've heard the Duggars have said (no cable, thank goodness!). Has anyone asked them about what the police report says?

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That's a good point. I wonder if the abuse in the rooms was more extensive than they've let on.

 

My inclination is to believe they have not revealed the true extent of the abuse.

 

Not because they are being purposely deceptive, (although that possibility does exist), but because human nature is to minimize trauma. I am confident they don't even admit to themselves the full gravity of what happened.

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I'm not following this case very closely; did the Duggars lie in the TV interview? The police reports say different things than what I've heard the Duggars have said (no cable, thank goodness!). Has anyone asked them about what the police report says?

 

Well, they minimized and had some details wrong.  Whether they were outright lies or just that they've changed the story over the course of a decade from minimizing it to themselves we don't know.

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Megyn Kelly did not ask them about discrepancies, unfortunately. One inconsistency that bothered me was their claiming the awake victims really didn't understand what was done to them (therefore, it was no big deal). However, if IRC, the police report said the 5 y.o. ran to tell on Josh.

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Maybe I am confused, but it seems to me that when the rooms were locked he might have felt he HAD to get more aggressive and go after opportunities as they arose? It might not be that he became more predatory, but simply that he had to become more bold in order to do what he wanted to do. Since he did not receive proper counseling he had no proper outlet for dealing with se**al feelings and he escalated since previous things had been swept under the rug he assumed (rightly) that new encounters would be too.

 

My cousin who did something similar (and whose parents were a fringe part of this movement) and later offended and went to prison had a deep sense of entitlement toward women. His mother was too busy to properly supervise him and he ran roughshod over his younger siblings with no discipline. I think Josh may have had the same feelings based on some of his obnoxious comments that are similar to ones my cousin made. 

 

I think the real reason that Michelle and Jim Bob did not get help at the appropriate time is that they knew the counselors would be mandatory reporters and they didn't want legal trouble or more public exposure because they knew that the whole issue of Josh being a minor was not good. My guess is that later the girls were having issues that Michelle and Jim Bob wanted dealt with before they presented themselves to a viewing public. After all, if something happened and the girls revealed what Josh had done in front of the crew filming, even if it never made it on TV, they were going to have problems with getting respect from the network.

 

They valued Josh, their oldest son and the reputation they were building for him more than the mental health of their dd's. After all, according to what they believe women are just supposed to suck up their problems anyway. Josh was supposed to be their "first fruit", and instead of making them proud he revealed that their tree is diseased. 

 

 

 

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Maybe I am confused, but it seems to me that when the rooms were locked he might have felt he HAD to get more aggressive and go after opportunities as they arose? It might not be that he became more predatory, but simply that he had to become more bold in order to do what he wanted to do. Since he did not receive proper counseling he had no proper outlet for dealing with se**al feelings and he escalated since previous things had been swept under the rug he assumed (rightly) that new encounters would be too.

 

My cousin who did something similar (and whose parents were a fringe part of this movement) and later offended and went to prison had a deep sense of entitlement toward women. His mother was too busy to properly supervise him and he ran roughshod over his younger siblings with no discipline. I think Josh may have had the same feelings based on some of his obnoxious comments that are similar to ones my cousin made.

 

I think the real reason that Michelle and Jim Bob did not get help at the appropriate time is that they knew the counselors would be mandatory reporters and they didn't want legal trouble or more public exposure because they knew that the whole issue of Josh being a minor was not good. My guess is that later the girls were having issues that Michelle and Jim Bob wanted dealt with before they presented themselves to a viewing public. After all, if something happened and the girls revealed what Josh had done in front of the crew filming, even if it never made it on TV, they were going to have problems with getting respect from the network.

 

They valued Josh, their oldest son and the reputation they were building for him more than the mental health of their dd's. After all, according to what they believe women are just supposed to suck up their problems anyway. Josh was supposed to be their "first fruit", and instead of making them proud he revealed that their tree is diseased.

This is possible. Either way, the safeguard of locking the rooms didn't stop the abuse, yet the parents presented their approach as effective.

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I'm not following this case very closely; did the Duggars lie in the TV interview? The police reports say different things than what I've heard the Duggars have said (no cable, thank goodness!). Has anyone asked them about what the police report says?

I don't think lie is exactly the right term. For instance, they said the girls had counseling. What they didn't say was that they waited four years until Family Services got involved before they got said counseling.  They're letting people believe they initiated it at the time of the abuse. 

 

Jim Bob said he walked Josh into the police department to confess. He did say he knew a lot of officers because he was a used car salesman, but he made it sound like he randomly walked in there. In fact, the cop he talked to said he knew Jim Bob and Jim Bob called him to arrange the meeting.  

 

 

Megyn Kelly didn't call them on these things. 

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