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HOD middle school - CTC and higher


MrsMe
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I'm just wondering with all the talk about the new WG and WH programs in HOD or any program from CTC and up, if anyone who's dropped it thinks that it's really not grade worthy?  I'd like to hear about it.  And it's not to create animosity between the lovers and haters of it, but I've just realized that we've really been doing the same thing for the last few years without any REAL challenge or new stimulation outside of just a bigger load. Plus, know that if those people are still using it, then they will probably not agree with this post. :)

 

I have noticed that the narrations continue still in WH, which I feel are elementary at this point and we should be moving on, in fact moving on from those since 6th grade. I do see the increase in the difficulty of book levels, but not much else at all.  The research papers are nil with one I know of beginning in WG.  The outlining and note-taking isn't utilized at all in middle school, (MTMM had it once or twice) but we wrote nothing from it, and I feel like we're really behind  in this sense.  Granted it's more of a CM method, but I always thought it would come out in the end.  I'm no longer seeing that, in the end, we'd be in the same place.  CM wasn't not rigorous, but I'm finding more, nothing more difficult and actually some things much too late! It's almost like the rigor that CM spoke of, if you look at her samples, is not here.  Not in the questioning, not in the writing at all.

 

I think we should have already been doing a research paper or essay of some sort "across the board" not being solely from a lesson learned in grammar.  Not starting one in WG. We haven't learned it and certainly have never utilized any R&S writing knowledge in the content subjects. 

 

What do you all think?

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I'm just wondering with all the talk about the new WG and WH programs in HOD or any program from CTC and up, if anyone who's dropped it thinks that it's really not grade worthy?  I'd like to hear about it.  And it's not to create animosity between the lovers and haters of it, but I've just realized that we've really been doing the same thing for the last few years without any REAL challenge or new stimulation outside of just a bigger load. Plus, know that if those people are still using it, then they will probably not agree with this post. :)

 

What do you all think?

 

I am currently using CTC with my oldest who is 11 and in 5th grade.  I am also using Beyond with a 2nd grader.  My 3rd grader has been participating some in both.  All three of my children have used Rod and Staff English since 2nd grade, so they came into HOD with that background this year.  They also came in with a background of having done some written & oral narrations, and much copy work and dictation.

 

The comments below are going to be focused on my experience with CTC.

 

Hmmm...from everything I had read on the HOD board I honestly expected an advanced program.  I wouldn't say that is what we have found.  In fact, the more I have done of CTC the more surprised I have been by what the program really is versus what I thought it would be.  I have also been very surprised that the end of the TM is not any harder then Unit 1.  With all of the skill building discussed around HOD, I really did expect and think skills would build within the guide.  When I look at RTR it really doesn't look any further then CTC; so I am missing where the real skill building is taking place.

 

I wouldn't say it is grade worthy, except maybe in the amount of work and work load.  The program doesn't lack in the number of assignments.  It lacks though in rigor, depth of thought, and an application of thought to the study of history or written narration or literature.  The questions are very basic for my kids, and I expected them to be pulling more depth out of the study of the Old and New Testaments.  

 

I think though instead of giving a review, I will share the main comments my 5th grade son has made regarding the program from his experience of doing it.

 

*The narration box provided in the note book pages has frustrated him due to its small space.  The written narration is supposed to be 5 - 8 sentences.  He likes to use adjectives and adverbs to give descriptions of the subject he is discussing in his writing.  His sentences tend to be compound sentences so they are much longer then a second or third grader might provide.  Between these two realities in his writing the box provided is much too SMALL.  His written narrations have mostly been 3 - 4 sentences, and he writes very small Italic on lines that he inserts into the box with a ruler.  This fills the box, and thus his written narrations have been limited in length by the space provided.  The amount of space does not even allow him to complete the assignment given.

 

*The time-line is fairly basic for the OT and NT.  This was frustrating to him since he knew many more events in both books of the Bible then is mentioned in the program.

 

*He liked the Greek and Rome books.  He rather read the actual Scriptures, then Christine Miller for the OT.  Fortunately for the NT the actual Scriptures are used, and he prefers that.

 

*His main comment though has been he thinks the program lacks depth and has many assignments, but none that require thinking.  He says that in many ways it has made it more difficult to do because it doesn't make him think.  Since it isn't requiring him to think he ends up bored and then he says that it is harder to make himself do the work since it isn't engaging him like other home school work has done.  This is a child though who started oral narrations at 6, has voluntarily orally narrated books for years, is an avid reader, and it doesn't take a lot of thought to tell about something he has read.  What would take a lot of thought is the next level of thinking that he is needing to start engaging in.  I actually bought this program with the thought it would help take his thinking to that next step.  I believe Susan Bauer calls it the logic stage.  He is ready to start thinking more deeply, comparing and contrasting, and developing reasons for why he believes what he believes.  He really needs to be thinking through issues as he enters the middle grades, and this program felt like it was holding him back.  As I have looked at RTR - MTMM to see if they would be better for 6th I am not getting the impression they would be.  They would add more work, but I am not seeing how they would add more thinking or beginning analysis.  I had this impression that HOD devolved into real thinking, and was a program full of rigor.  I was very mistaken.  I don't consider busy work rigor, but just more work like they had us do in school! :huh: I think HOD has a lot of public school elements and scope and sequence that isn't honors level.  I thought it would be more CM, and there are a lot of CM elements.  The public school scope and sequence, which is lower expectations then I have, surprised me.  I still love a lot of her books picks though!  However, definitely not all of them.

 

I don't know if this is what anyone was looking for in an answer, but I thought I would bump you up because I am interested in hearing what others have to say too.  :lurk5:

 

I am not planning on continuing on with HOD next year.  Faith & Jesus Christ & Bible as the center of our home school has always been the most important part for us, but we really do need academic rigor as well.  Hopefully, I can figure out a way to have both.  :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have used LHFHG, BLHFHG, BHFHG, PHFHG, CTC, MTMM, and WG.  We have not completed all of them but have used them in our 6 years of homeschooling.  You can see from my signature that we now do virtual school and my children returned to high school as well.  You have a very valid point.  No, I do not think they are challenging in many ways.  I do think they fulfill the hours requirements for credits.  That is their main basis for high school credit worthiness in my opinion.  My older students went from doing the younger guides through CTC to switching to K12 in 6th and 7th grade respectively for my girls.  They had done 5th and 6th with CTC as 10 and 11 yr olds.  Our first year in k12 really kicked their tails academically in language arts, composition, and writing.  Math was also very hard as the 7th grader jumped into an intense Pre-Algebra and the 6th grader jumped into Fundamentals of Geometry and Algebra.  Science was so much more rigorous.  History utilized outlines and timelines to write essays and papers as well.  We did K12 for a year and a 1/2 and then withdrew mid-7th grade and mid-8th grade.  I purchased MTMM and WG for the girls at that time.  We had started WG and MTMM when my oldest asked to return to high school in 9th grade.  She has been in all honors/ Pre-AP/AP classes mainly based off her last k12 report card and test scores from mid-8th grade.  I have seen her work for all the classes that are equivalent to the credits in WG-World Geography, Physical Science, English 1, and Algebra.  I would say that she spent much less time on busy work and had many more projects, socratic discussions, and papers than with WG.  She had 4-90 min. classes a semester both semesters for 8 credits.  I found that her days with WG were redundant and the work was very similar for each unit and the methodology used in younger guides of learning new skills and mastering them instead of increasing challenge through the year holds true.  I do feel the guides have a basic pattern starting around CTC that just increases in time required to finish the subjects with each subsequent guide.  It seemed that the general pattern was the same and that only the amount of work and boxes had increased with each guide.

She had been working on WG and was set to start another day with it the day she asked to tour the local high school.  She could have easily glided through WG at the house instead of going back to school and being challenged in honors classes.  In hindsight, I had already had my doubts about WG for high school as it seemed a lot of just busy work to fill in hours for credits.  Which you are required to have so many hours to equal a credit in many places, but hours alone do not make a course credit worthy.  I know that WG's courses would not have been college prep track worthy even back in the days that I went to high school.  Most high schools have levels for each course.  Levels for the students that need remedial courses, levels for the average students, levels for the college-prep student, levels for the gifted students.  I would say HOD's courses would have been average-general diploma courses.    

Since every one's students will be striving for different goals and different futures, I can only say that for my student who wishes to go to University and study Veterinary Science that it would not have met our goals in the long run to give her the transcript that she required for that goal.  I know the science and math path are confusing and jump from one publisher to another in the guides that are written so far for HOD high school.  The science is definitely the minimum that you could do for high school in quality for the credit.  The math is just a book.  There is no schedule or guidance other than get the math book each day and do some math.  Since my student needs heavy math and science, I do not feel either of those subjects were credit worthy for our goals.  In fact, even when the plan was to do WG for high school with our oldest, we were using MFW's plans for Saxon Algebra 1 and Apologia Physical Science as I had already decided that what was in WG was not going to meet our long-term goals for college prep math and science to get dd into the college of her choice in the major of her choice.  I think that is what makes an all-in-one high school guide hard to make fit all students.   All high schoolers do not take or need the same course of study.  Different students will need different courses to meet their needs.  

 

ETA-I agree with gratitude on her points she made.  We went from using CTC to K12 then back to MTMM and WG and I really couldn't see a huge difference in critical thinking or skills.  I just saw more busy work and more boxes to complete in the later guides.

 

 

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Yikes! This now has me a bit concerned. We just bought CTC for my daughter's 5th grade year. i also thought, based on the HOD board, that their curriculum would really build necessary skills for college and be rather rigorous. For now, I really want at least a history program that has a guide. I don't feel strong enough in that subject to create my own in any way. I like the hand holding. And the weaving of literature and activities/projects into the history. And honestly, I hope to have a guide for a few of the subjects, at least for a few more years until she likely will take more online or local tutorial classes. So......What are some programs that you feel ARE college prep? I would prefer a Christian curriculum if possible. What about MFW or TOG? Biblioplan?

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I'm very interested in this...

 

I had *thought* that I would move to HOD for school next year (3rd & 6th). I purchased Bigger used and decided that my 2nd grader was already doing more than this guide would require. I know it is supposed to be CM based and gentle, but I just didn't feel good about it when I finally got my hands on it.

 

I ended up not switching either kid and I'm sticking with mostly TWTM suggestions for next year, but I still have that nagging in the back of my mind about R2R. I worry about planning middle and high school, so I keep "looking" at HOD for future.

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

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Ditto to the above. We've been doing our own thing, but I was strongly leaning toward HOD for middle school and up. The specific guide Facebook pages lead me to believe there is lots of rigor and depth to the upper guides. The users seem very pleased. I love the idea of a plan set in place for the year (for our guide- the inventor study, etc). Is MFW more rigorous?

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 I found that her days with WG were redundant and the work was very similar for each unit and the methodology used in younger guides of learning new skills and mastering them instead of increasing challenge through the year holds true.  I do feel the guides have a basic pattern starting around CTC that just increases in time required to finish the subjects with each subsequent guide.  It seemed that the general pattern was the same and that only the amount of work and boxes had increased with each guide.

 

 I would say HOD's courses would have been average-general diploma courses.

   

Since every one's students will be striving for different goals and different futures, I can only say that for my student who wishes to go to University and study Veterinary Science that it would not have met our goals in the long run to give her the transcript that she required for that goal.  I know the science and math path are confusing and jump from one publisher to another in the guides that are written so far for HOD high school.

 

We went from using CTC to K12 then back to MTMM and WG and I really couldn't see a huge difference in critical thinking or skills.  I just saw more busy work and more boxes to complete in the later guides.

Okay, this is exactly what I am seeing.  I have been waiting since CTC to see an increase in thought and writing, and it's just not there.  It's just simply more work or lateral moves. The lack of cohesive writing programs I see have been detrimental.  As you mentioned with K12, we should have been learning different essays and research papers in the middle school guides and utilizing that knowledge in WG and I see we're just beginning that stage in WG. The narrations are changing in a minor way, but nothing like a true research paper or an essay.  There's no "persuasive" or compare and contrast.  I believe the latter is in the Religions & Culture study, but from what I see with that, it's an elementary level.   

 

Some of the boxes aren't cohesive in that the set up makes no sense.  Certain resources that are the same (same book)  are scattered in different boxes. That's has nothing to do with rigor, but is frustrating to read. But I'm a format nut.

 

This is what I'm seeing completely. Now I don't know how to get up to speed with writing AND keep in line with credits needed.  If I try to make this program into what I feel it should be something has to be dropped and since it's so integrated, I can't imagine how that'll work. 

 

Tidbits, did you use EIW?  I heard it was very incremental, but sporatic in the days used, so it was disconnected.  But I even so I still see that the grammar principals aren't utilized across the board.  It still contains basic narrations and summaries as we learned years ago.  

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Yikes! This now has me a bit concerned. We just bought CTC for my daughter's 5th grade year. i also thought, based on the HOD board, that their curriculum would really build necessary skills for college and be rather rigorous. For now, I really want at least a history program that has a guide. I don't feel strong enough in that subject to create my own in any way. I like the hand holding. And the weaving of literature and activities/projects into the history. And honestly, I hope to have a guide for a few of the subjects, at least for a few more years until she likely will take more online or local tutorial classes. So......What are some programs that you feel ARE college prep? I would prefer a Christian curriculum if possible. What about MFW or TOG? Biblioplan?

 

I always found CTC to be more, not more difficult.  I feel like the rest through MTMM has been lateral in thought, but much more in load.  I've always scratched my head on why you couldn't jump to a guide and skip one, already having done those guides since they are so lateral. 

 

I too like the weaving, but I also want some depth and it continues to be topical in lieu of more load.

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Yes!  I agree completely with all of the posters here.  We never did make to the upper guides, but my ds used the guides through Bigger.  We dropped HOD for the reasons mentioned... it seemed like each year increased in workload, but my ds wasn't doing any real thinking (except in Singapore Math).  He wasn't really learning anything either, except how to do copious amounts of copywork.  :glare:  I think I even posted a complaint about it on these boards years ago.  I felt there was way too much busywork.  When I looked ahead to the upper guides, it seemed like it was just more of the same. 

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I understand that narrations are a different thought process and have their place, but we're not moving on from them in the way CM mentions in her books.  What an elementary student put out in her examples isn't what HOD is doing since the narrations aren't choosing anything to persuade or to research as mentioned in the books.  Again, they're just beginning in WG, but barely and on an elementary level.

 

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Ditto to the above. We've been doing our own thing, but I was strongly leaning toward HOD for middle school and up. The specific guide Facebook pages lead me to believe there is lots of rigor and depth to the upper guides. The users seem very pleased. I love the idea of a plan set in place for the year (for our guide- the inventor study, etc). Is MFW more rigorous?

No, MFW isn't more rigorous. We have used MFW K, 1, ADV, and ECC. I haven't used the higher guides, but they seemed similar to ECC until a jump in HS.

 

HOD is more focused on CM, but isn't reaching the level of difficulty in the samples of CM students from over a century ago. Carrie spent 11 years in the classroom, and I do see much of that influence in the guides.

 

MFW is very mission minded and much more classically orientated. It has a strong hands on focus though that can also feel busy. The writing is definitely lacking rigorous training and thought. The best part about MFW is their heart for missions.

 

The place I have found focus and rigor for writing is in Susan Bauer's audio down load talks for elementary, middle school, and high school writing. Those talks, available at Peace Hill Press for $4 each, are exceptional and present a rigorous plan for using writing as a means towards thinking and study. Her plan really could be put to use with any history, science, literature, or Bible selections.

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The place I have found focus and rigor for writing is in Susan Bauer's audio down load talks for elementary, middle school, and high school writing. Those talks, available at Peace Hill Press for $4 each, are exceptional and present a rigorous plan for using writing as a means towards thinking and study. Her plan really could be put to use with any history, science, literature, or Bible selections.

 

I need to download these and listen this summer! 

 

Thank you all for your feedback re: HOD.  I feel better about my decision to skip it this year.  I am still using some of her book suggestions, but we're doing our own thing with them.  My kids don't really care for hands on projects, which is big in the HOD books, so they'll be happy too!

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No, we did not do EIW.  I had already decided that HOD's English path would not work for us.  It was not on the level that she had come from with K12's 9th grade English 1.   dd who was 8th grade at the time had been enrolled in all 9th grade k12 courses and was on the high school platform when we left and were going back to HOD.  I can compare the assignments required in all subjects for k12's 9th grade high school as well as public high school.  We have done enough of HOD's programs that while everyone does focus on how much it jumps and how you need to not miss guides for skills and what not.--the only skills I saw repetitively were being able to work longer, read more books, and do more boxes each year.  I did not see that some of the choices were grade level choices.  My children had completed music studies in k12's middle school studying the composer's and writing papers on them as well and researching.  To jump from that level of thinking to an elementary style lapbook was insane.  I think it is the way that most people say use Teaching Textbooks a grade or 2 higher.  I would say use HOD at the youngest age range. 

I wouldn't recommend it for anyone wanting a college-prep education.  I do think there is a difference between being able to get accepted at a college and having a college-prep education.  The two are not the same thing and if you read the answers to questions posed about HOD's high school, you will see that often the answer is about credit hours and her child being accepted to the college of his choice.  I think most people feel peace when reading those answers, but as anyone who has gotten to the high school stage of the game knows...not every college has the same standards, not all high school diplomas are the same, and doing the bare minimum can get you into college.  Will it get you where you are wanting to go long term is a completely different question?

I would say WG is about what my children were doing in 6th grade.  My younger dd did World History A, Physical Science 8, French 1, Intermediate Language A (which had more composition and vocabulary (latin roots) than WG), Fundamentals of Geometry and Algebra, Music 1 (with a music study), and PE (with a health unit).  I could see that WG was probably the equivalent of what she had gotten in 6th grade k12 except 6th grade k12 had them do a huge science fair research project--http://www.k12.com/courses/scope-sequence/physical-science-calms1099, they had to write essays comparing/contrasting and more over World History each unit as well as a research paper in one of the units-- http://www.k12.com/courses/scope-sequence/intermediate-world-history-a-calms1105 , the math probably would only be equivalent of the lower math book HOD recommends but considering this was 6th grade-- http://www.k12.com/courses/scope-sequence/math-6-fundamentals-geometry-algebra-calms139 , they studied the great composers as well as learning to read and write music--again with several essays on the composers and a research paper--, the spanish used in HOD would not be the equivalent of middle school foreign language even for a 1/4 credit, In language arts and literature, she was reading and analyzing many works of literature and writing essays as well as doing a composition each unit--  http://www.k12.com/courses/scope-sequence/intermediate-english-a-calms1565  ...

Anyway, just reading the scope and sequence of a typical k12 6th-8th grade course will show that it is the equivalent or higher of the skills used in the WG guide.  I think a lot of homeschoolers remember high school as multiple choice tests and regurgitating answers.  It is not that way now even for the regular classes.  It is a lot of critical thinking, socratic discussion, debate, and essays to back up your opinions and knowledge from the material.  I don't think homeschool suppliers are changing for this shift in learning methods.  I don't think it is a problem that is just reflective in HOD's high school skills--I think it is across the board with homeschool publishers in a lot of ways.  I would really encourage parents to get a course description book from your local high school and take a look at what they are really asking of this student to earn credits.  It is much more like what I had for college courses than what my high school looked like at all.  I know having had a student go back for high school and seeing what high school actually looks like for college-prep now has been very eye-opening. 

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We have done enough of HOD's programs that while everyone does focus on how much it jumps and how you need to not miss guides for skills and what not.--the only skills I saw repetitively were being able to work longer, read more books, and do more boxes each year.  I did not see that some of the choices were grade level choices.  My children had completed music studies in k12's middle school studying the composer's and writing papers on them as well and researching.  To jump from that level of thinking to an elementary style lapbook was insane.  I think it is the way that most people say use Teaching Textbooks a grade or 2 higher.  I would say use HOD at the youngest age range. 

 

Bummer, I was hoping for info in EIW since it's not blowing my skirt up.

 

I agree fully with this statement.  I feel like now we can't get up to par with writing and expectations in this sense, because we've only added more work load instead of more thought.  In WG, I'm still seeing page numbers given for information instead of having the student find it.  :crying:   I'm not seeing the assignments concentrate on thinking things through outside of a basic narration, because it's simply more.  I didn't see it in the WH sample either, but I know there's more to a program than a sample.  According to CM methods, the increase in difficulty is just not there, but simply on a very elementary basis.

 

I think CTC through MTMM is lateral, except in workload.  And then even WG isn't giving us the level of writing needed.  I have to say I never, ever understood how much people thought the guides  jumped.  It doesn't jump in skill. It jumps only in the amount of work.  The writing, other than making a basic narration longer or timed, isn't increasing in difficulty.  I'd say for those who are reading this, read up on CM narrations. They are far from what the expectations are in HOD. I see the WG guide as being about 6-7th grade level writing.  So if you love HOD, then tweak the writing to be on level. 

 

I thought I was missing something.  Turns out I'm right. :crying:

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I think CTC through MTMM is lateral, except in workload.  And then even WG isn't giving us the level of writing needed.  I have to say I never, ever understood how much people thought the guides  jumped.  It doesn't jump in skill. It jumps only in the amount of work.  The writing, other than making a basic narration longer or timed, isn't increasing in difficulty.  I'd say for those who are reading this, read up on CM narrations. They are far from what the expectations are in HOD. I see the WG guide as being about 6-7th grade level writing.  So if you love HOD, then tweak the writing to be on level. 

 

I thought I was missing something.  Turns out I'm right. :crying:

 

But doesn't the WG guide use the 10th grade level of Essentials in Writing?  So wouldn't that make it at least on grade level in terms of writing skills?

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I've been trying to decide whether to join this conversation or just keep my mouth shut but after thinking about it since yesterday, I've decided that I would hate for someone to search on the boards for HOD and find this conversation without seeing anyone with a different opinion.

 

I've used all the guides up to Missions to Modern Marvels.  I own that guide also as my current 13yods will be using it next year and I also own the World Geography guide (haven't used it yet but used some of the ideas in it to apply it to a Sonlight Core for my high schooler this year).  

 

One of the things I have noticed with my 13yods, is that his writing is maturing with little help from me just by following the directions in the history narration boxes the HOD guides.  His sentence structure has become more complex, his organization level has increased and his ideas have become more clearly communicated in writing just by making sure to follow the directions in that box.  I do have to make sure that I take the time to make sure his narrations follow the guidelines that Carrie has included in the guide but if I am consistent in enforcing those ideas, his narrations continue to improve.

 

I've noticed a huge difference particularly this year in the Rev to Rev guide and I think one of the most important skills that has been added this year are the two different types of oral narrations that are found in the History boxes.  The summary narration, using only six sentences to summarize the reading is really outlining and it has been a struggle all year for my guy to adjust to.  At first, he was all over the place, but we keep on working on it and every week, he gets better.  I've seen him taking that skill and transferring it over to his written narrations as we go through the year.  The detail oral narrations are also good in that he practices his reading comprehension with those and I can see him being braver about using vocabulary as we continue to work on those types of narration.

 

This year I have one child doing Preparing which has really basic written narration. One child just finished CTC and is on about week 8 of Res to Ref and then my guy I referred to above using Rev to Rev and when I look at the directions in those narration boxes side-by-side I can see that the requirements are  slowly buildling on from year to year, but as the teacher, I have to make sure that I'm making my kids meet the objectives that Carrie has outlined.  I don't depend on my kids to do it on their own which is a mistake I've made in the past.

 

I do sometimes depart from the language arts in the guides so I won't defend those choices :)  I do think the LA lags behind a bit, or at least lags a bit behind what my kids seem to be capable of.  I usually either start using the R&S grammar at grade level in the Beyond Guide (so second grade) or I choose a different grammar completely.  I usually don't appreciate the writing choices Carrie uses and replace those also.  I've been substituting with CAP's writing this year and am going to probably use WWS for at least one kid next year but the guides are designed for those substitutions to be made.  

 

I know that HOD isn't a great fit for everyone but I think to dismiss it as non-college prep is a great over-statement.  My two college-age children probably didn't have as well-rounded education as this is providing and they've been doing fine in college.  I was just thinking last night how much better my youngers will be prepared for that jump to college as I was looking over the World Geography and World History guides last night.  

 

 

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I know that HOD isn't a great fit for everyone but I think to dismiss it as non-college prep is a great over-statement.  My two college-age children probably didn't have as well-rounded education as this is providing and they've been doing fine in college.  I was just thinking last night how much better my youngers will be prepared for that jump to college as I was looking over the World Geography and World History guides last night.  

 

But that was the original posters question...does it ever truly ramp up to the amount of essays, compare/contrast, persuasive argument, narrative that goes across the board in most high school curriculum?  WG did not have all of that through the subjects.  It was more narration.  That was her question.  It is just more of what they have been doing since CTC.  As for college prep, it would not give us the Carnegie units required and a major pay for high school transcript provider (record keeping service) questioned me when I turned in our scope/sequence with list of courses and materials used with HOD WG.  I am not naming the homeschool record keeping service b/c I did not follow up since my oldest had went to high school at that point, but at the time I turned in her course list/description/materials used...I received an email requesting more information and more proof that it would be credit worthy.  The notebooking pages were not going to cut it for proof of material learned.  1 project and 1 research paper were not going to be sufficient.  I pretty much was told it would not be credit worthy from the transcript provider.  At the high school level, they were going to need more to show knowledge and ability.  

I had pretty much sent the introduction from the guide.  I did not follow through b/c we had enrolled in local school a week after sending in the email listing her courses for 9th grade.  If we would not have enrolled, I would have had to change several things and add papers/essay/research to HOD and resubmit that plan and hope they would then say it was credit worthy.  It was a provider that allowed you to use your own material as long as it could be deemed credit worthy in more than just hours spent on the material.

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Tidbits of Learning,

 

Thank you so much for all of your information! It is really helping me to read all of your experiences and what you are finding in the different curriculums.

 

The expectations you are finding sound a lot like what I was given in 7th - 12th grades for a gifted program 30 years ago. Except, now those expectations are for the regular classes. We analyzed a large variety of literature books and wrote papers on history, our understanding, comparing and contrasting to a wide range of topics, giving our opinions, and thinking through issues.

 

I agree too Tidbits of Learning that there is a big difference between being accepted to college and doing well in it. I remember 1/2 the freshman I started college with not returning sophomore year. I think our 10,000 student campus, including grad students, had 5,000 freshman if I remember correctly. Most weren't there on graduation day. So being prepared is more important then getting in; since if one is well prepared they will get in.

 

Thank you for asking MrsMe. I have read so many threads about the positives on HOD it is nice to read my very great doubts about its educational quality validated.

 

This discussion has been insightful!

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I've been trying to decide whether to join this conversation or just keep my mouth shut but after thinking about it since yesterday, I've decided that I would hate for someone to search on the boards for HOD and find this conversation without seeing anyone with a different opinion.

 

I've used all the guides up to Missions to Modern Marvels.  I own that guide also as my current 13yods will be using it next year and I also own the World Geography guide (haven't used it yet but used some of the ideas in it to apply it to a Sonlight Core for my high schooler this year).  

 

One of the things I have noticed with my 13yods, is that his writing is maturing with little help from me just by following the directions in the history narration boxes the HOD guides.  His sentence structure has become more complex, his organization level has increased and his ideas have become more clearly communicated in writing just by making sure to follow the directions in that box.  I do have to make sure that I take the time to make sure his narrations follow the guidelines that Carrie has included in the guide but if I am consistent in enforcing those ideas, his narrations continue to improve.

 

I've noticed a huge difference particularly this year in the Rev to Rev guide and I think one of the most important skills that has been added this year are the two different types of oral narrations that are found in the History boxes.  The summary narration, using only six sentences to summarize the reading is really outlining and it has been a struggle all year for my guy to adjust to.  At first, he was all over the place, but we keep on working on it and every week, he gets better.  I've seen him taking that skill and transferring it over to his written narrations as we go through the year.  The detail oral narrations are also good in that he practices his reading comprehension with those and I can see him being braver about using vocabulary as we continue to work on those types of narration.

 

This year I have one child doing Preparing which has really basic written narration. One child just finished CTC and is on about week 8 of Res to Ref and then my guy I referred to above using Rev to Rev and when I look at the directions in those narration boxes side-by-side I can see that the requirements are  slowly buildling on from year to year, but as the teacher, I have to make sure that I'm making my kids meet the objectives that Carrie has outlined.  I don't depend on my kids to do it on their own which is a mistake I've made in the past.

 

I do sometimes depart from the language arts in the guides so I won't defend those choices :)  I do think the LA lags behind a bit, or at least lags a bit behind what my kids seem to be capable of.  I usually either start using the R&S grammar at grade level in the Beyond Guide (so second grade) or I choose a different grammar completely.  I usually don't appreciate the writing choices Carrie uses and replace those also.  I've been substituting with CAP's writing this year and am going to probably use WWS for at least one kid next year but the guides are designed for those substitutions to be made.  

 

I know that HOD isn't a great fit for everyone but I think to dismiss it as non-college prep is a great over-statement.  My two college-age children probably didn't have as well-rounded education as this is providing and they've been doing fine in college.  I was just thinking last night how much better my youngers will be prepared for that jump to college as I was looking over the World Geography and World History guides last night.  

I'm glad you didn't keep silent.  I think it's important that we are weighing opinions.  And not all go to college, and not all need to be rigorous, I'm thinking we're not being taught or should I say utilized what is being taught in writing/grammar and the thought process is lateral. 

 

I agree writing has matured and it should mature, but the question is, is it maturing at a rate that it should be for the levels?  Sentence structure, organization are important, as is communicating what is being read on a level that is understood by the student.    I find the oral narrations and the written narrations important for understanding.    As you mentioned, "the summary narration, using only six sentences is really outlining" of sorts, yes, as CM doesn't use the "structured" teachings of an essay or research, but does it by "narrations."  So in that sense, a long narration could be an "essay".  But here is where my problem lies.  At 13 you are and at 14 we are still summarizing the reading.  Sentence structure and organization should be a given at this point. It should be a given at the 6th grade level, not going into 9th.   I don't find long narrations vs short narrations, or summaries, or a 5-7 sentence summary to be worthy of grade 8, much less just a longer one for grade 9, or an oral narration that is 5 minutes vs basic. This is still all summarizing and it's simply longer or shorter.    High school is time to apply what we learned through more challenging thought.  MTMM just began note-taking in week 20-something. This should have been not started here but completed and being utilized already.  But I don't see the more challenging thought, the research, needed opinions, compare/contrast, teaching (or asking for it) in the narrations. 

 

I agree narrations are definitely a skill and certainly beats (IMO) comprehension questions.   To me though, they are an understanding of the material, but it's time to start having opinions, persuasion, "essays".  Essays actually have a  beginning and topic sentence in every paragraph (n a 5-sentence narration), the last being a concluding sentence or wrap up.  Not just a summary.  I think they delve a tad deeper than a "summary". 

 

Per CM,  narrations in grade 4-6 are to consist of continuing narrations and adding to them and expository.  Being able to give a clear and accurate explanation of how something works.  I haven't seen this used on anything and if so, unmemorable. 

 

Per CM, narrations in grade 7-9 are to continue narrative and expository and add - descriptive, asking the student to describe something usually progressing from large scope to smaller details. Examples are:(from CM)  1)Describe the founding of Christ's Kingdom. 2)Explain [key phrase from historical event] and give an account of [unrelated historical event read about]. 3)Describe a geographical journey [in area read about].  4)Give a diagram of [body part studied], and explain how [it works].  5)Discuss [modern political person's] scheme. How is it working?, 6) Write an essay on [current event], showing what some of the difficulties have been and what has been achieved. 

 

Those are some examples. They've been elementary at best and nil in the course of any assigned narration.  Looking at the examples of what CM has in her appendices, CM went deep with less, rather than topical with more.  These children wrote more than summaries.   

 

To spend time on assigned  copywork or dictation at this level is absurd, as is (in MTMM) finding that blurb that interests the student. I think we're way past that. I haven't seen any skills utilized in the guides' teachings of persuasive essays, or any essays, outlining, or note-taking across the board, but only in the grammar or writing lesson itself. It's taught, and forgotten and we continue with summary narrations of varying length.  

 

So while skills maybe transferring and getting better, the ante isn't being upped so-to-speak.

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But doesn't the WG guide use the 10th grade level of Essentials in Writing?  So wouldn't that make it at least on grade level in terms of writing skills?

The problem is you're learning things you should be applying, IMO.  Granted, it says grade 10.  But 9 is almost the same if you look at the S&S of EIW.  The second issue is that what has already been taught regarding essays, which has been little has not been used. 

 

I guess I have a problem with learning the essay in 9th when we should be doing essays and perfecting them.

 

Edited to add: I guess time will tell. Since the guides aren't written, we don't know how much will be utilized across the board until we actually see it. 

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It seems that HOD uses a variety of resources for writing. IEW Medieval History based writing is used in their Resurrection to Reformation guide. While I don't have any experience with IEW I've read numerous glowing reports about it that have left me with the impression that it is quite valuable.  In later guides, I see that HOD uses The Exciting World of Creative Writing and then EIW.  Again, I don't have any experience with this, but from the outside looking in it appears that HOD offers well rounded, incremental instruction.  

I'm curious what our experience will be as be begin CTC in August. I think HOD has much to offer and appreciate the information offered in this thread.  As the previous posted stated, "time will tell."

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Sorry, I had to edit/remove the HOD writing progression information because I just read in one of the pinned posts on this forum that we are not permitted to copy text from another site and post it here.  I get that : )  So, if you want to read HOD's writing progression it can be found through a search on their forum : )

 

And oops, it looks like the text was quoted in another post....should probably remove that quote, too ; )

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I am glad to see this thread and the open discussion. I, like probably many others, continue to look at the plan-in-a-box each year, hoping that it will fit the needs of a child or two and help me out. :)

 

A serious look at the science and math recommendations, along with a perusal of their forum looking at math discussions, convinced me pretty quickly that I think much differently about math and science education than the HOD creator does. (I don't find myself agreeing with those recommendations and the descriptions of children as being "mathy" or not). But I had wondered about the rest, and how cohesive the reading, writing, and history portions would be.

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I am a fan of HOD most days, and then irritated by all the "parts and pieces" and seemingly busywork the others.  But one thing about this discussion that I agree with is the lack of cohesiveness.  I know that Carrie has put a lot of time and effort into choosing materials and covering skills.  and I think that her intent is for all of the pieces to come together and create stronger writers and thinkers.  I think for many students, that ends up being true.  

 

But one of the points above is something that has bothered me after using HOD this year as well.  For instance, we cover a skill in R&S, and then never see it again.  I would love to learn outlining in R&S and then have it show up as an assignment the next week in a history box.  It would make more sense to me.   I know we're supposed to trust the time that has been spent in balancing it all, but something needs to make sense to me personally for me to have faith that it's a good plan. Everything feels so random with so many different programs and skills spread out over the years.  I hesitate to say this, because I know I'll probably get blasted, but it sometimes feels like a good business move for them to use so many different programs.  I can't explain exactly what I mean, but something about that makes me a little skeptical.  

 

Maybe my dd was too old for the guide she used this year, but when it was all said and done, she didn't remember a thing.  She completed all of her little boxes each day, and filled in her notebook, but she retained nothing from history.  The only part she really enjoyed was the cd.  She did remember some of her science because she found the Tiner book fascinating, but that was about it.  I did feel that most of the assignments were busywork, and then some just didn't make any sense to her at all.  

 

Now, I do agree with Jan that parent involvement is key.  I think like any curriculum, the parent can affect how much it works.  

 

Overall, I love the book choices and idea behind HOD, but every time I try to use it, we tweak it so much that there's no point.  I do think personality comes into play though, so I'm sure that affects how we each see it.  

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This is a great post, Wildwood, because it shows the progression and it's wonderful that you shared it.  It also is a great reminder as we go through the guides, because sometimes we lose sight of it all.

 

Having gone through MTMM, and looking back, everything has been relatively lateral from CTC through MTMM.  I really, really enjoyed MTMM, but in all honesty, I think I could skipped to it or at least one guide between CTC and MTMM. 

 

There has been a lot of writing taught, although scattered concepts wise.  I understand the reasoning to switch programs, but the amount of changes, make it so that it's been difficult to build up or perfect the writing utilizing those skills.  I'm not sure, unless you know to do so, that most of these lessons have really been applied.  So we learn them then put them aside.  We can assume that the kids will apply them, but you will need to do that as a parent and make sure it's done. Let's not forget the Narration List in the back of the book that may hit upon descriptors or closing sentences, or opinion, but there's a disconnect there in expectations (or modeling) of what is expected.  If you look at the CM writing samples, which I would really urge you to do, there's something missing, either in the application, the narration checklist, or using the correct terms learned  from writing program to application.  Something.   I think some CM modeling would have been extremely helpful to have in the appendix, to see expectations.    Application is key and I guess I haven't seen that. I've seen longer narrations, but no thoughts, no utilization.  

 

I don't feel that HOD did anything randomly either. 

 

But WG's lit outside of BJU Lit choice is simply doing basic oral and written narrations.  I don't find that another 1/2 credit worthy of a Lit class.  It just seems to miss the mark.  I don't find writing something you found interesting  or useful for the sake of it, useful at 9th grade.  I just think the time spent, doing some of those elementary narrations or copywork, that are being done on a weekly, sometimes daily basis are not the best use of hs time, but taking away from going deeper with thought through better written assignments.

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This is a great post, because it shows the progression and it's wonderful that you shared it.  It also is a great reminder as we go through the guides, because sometimes we lose sight of it all.

 

Having gone through MTMM, and looking back, everything has been relatively lateral from CTC through MTMM.  I really, really enjoyed MTMM, but in all honesty, I think I could skipped to it or at least one guide between CTC and MTMM. 

 

There has been a lot of writing taught, although scattered concepts wise.  I understand the reasoning to switch programs, but the amount of changes, make it so that it's been difficult to build up or perfect the writing utilizing those skills.  I'm not sure, unless you know to do so, that most of these lessons have really been applied.  So we learn them then put them aside.  We can assume that the kids will apply them, but you will need to do that as a parent and make sure it's done. Let's not forget the Narration List in the back of the book that may hit upon descriptors or closing sentences, or opinion, but there's a disconnect there in expectations (or modeling) of what is expected.  If you look at the CM writing samples, which I would really urge you to do, there's something missing, either in the application, the narration checklist, or using the correct terms learned  from writing program to application.  Something.   I think some CM modeling would have been extremely helpful to have in the appendix, to see expectations.    Application is key and I guess I haven't seen that. I've seen longer narrations, but no thoughts, no utilization.  

 

I don't feel that HOD did anything randomly either. 

 

But WG's lit outside of BJU Lit choice is simply doing basic oral and written narrations.  I don't find that another 1/2 credit worthy of a Lit class.  It just seems to miss the mark.  I don't find writing something you found interesting  or useful for the sake of it, useful at 9th grade.  I just think the time spent, doing some of those elementary narrations or copywork, that are being done on a weekly, sometimes daily basis are not the best use of hs time, but taking away from going deeper with thought through better written assignments.

I've been lurking because I want to use HOD MTMM and up. 

 

question to the bolded-

 

I read in the forums from a post from Carrie that BJU Lit is 1/2 credit and EIW and R&S cover the other half to make it 1 English credit. Is that correct? It seems like plenty for 1 English credit to me, am I missing something?

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I am a fan of HOD most days, and then irritated by all the "parts and pieces" and seemingly busywork the others.  But one thing about this discussion that I agree with is the lack of cohesiveness.  I know that Carrie has put a lot of time and effort into choosing materials and covering skills.  and I think that her intent is for all of the pieces to come together and create stronger writers and thinkers.  I think for many students, that ends up being true.  

 

But one of the points above is something that has bothered me after using HOD this year as well.  For instance, we cover a skill in R&S, and then never see it again.  I would love to learn outlining in R&S and then have it show up as an assignment the next week in a history box.  It would make more sense to me.   I know we're supposed to trust the time that has been spent in balancing it all, but something needs to make sense to me personally for me to have faith that it's a good plan. Everything feels so random with so many different programs and skills spread out over the years.  I hesitate to say this, because I know I'll probably get blasted, but it sometimes feels like a good business move for them to use so many different programs.  I can't explain exactly what I mean, but something about that makes me a little skeptical.  

 

Maybe my dd was too old for the guide she used this year, but when it was all said and done, she didn't remember a thing.  She completed all of her little boxes each day, and filled in her notebook, but she retained nothing from history.  The only part she really enjoyed was the cd.  She did remember some of her science because she found the Tiner book fascinating, but that was about it.  I did feel that most of the assignments were busywork, and then some just didn't make any sense to her at all.  

 

Now, I do agree with Jan that parent involvement is key.  I think like any curriculum, the parent can affect how much it works.  

 

Overall, I love the book choices and idea behind HOD, but every time I try to use it, we tweak it so much that there's no point.  I do think personality comes into play though, so I'm sure that affects how we each see it.  

This is exactly my point as well in red.  It just gets all lost in the shuffle.    I also agree that tthe connections aren't always being made by the assignments.  Parental involvement is key, but then I can't possibly read all this and make the connections too. Scanning doesn't cut it for the older levels.  It just requires more thought than that and I don't see that written into the guide at this point. Now I can fix and tweak, but then the load takes over.

 

I too love the books. Some spines not so much, but overall the books are definitely a hit.

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I've been lurking because I want to use HOD MTMM and up. 

 

question to the bolded-

 

I read in the forums from a post from Carrie that BJU Lit is 1/2 credit and EIW and R&S cover the other half to make it 1 English credit. Is that correct? It seems like plenty for 1 English credit to me, am I missing something?

No, you aren't missing anything. I stand corrected. 

 

With that then, I have to wonder why add MORE to 1/2 credit when BJU Lit is 1/2 credit on it's own, and EIW and R&S make up the other 1/2 credit.  More for the sake of more?  Okay, now I'm confused on that.

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  :)  I misread the 1/2 credit question if you saw my earlier answer.    but as someone who doesn't use HOD, I would think the "extra 1/2 credit in lit" would be for an Elective on the transcript. (edit to add...  sounds like I completely misread the OP's comment on 1/2 credit. )

 

 

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There has been a lot of writing taught, although scattered concepts wise.  I understand the reasoning to switch programs, but the amount of changes, make it so that it's been difficult to build up or perfect the writing utilizing those skills.  I'm not sure, unless you know to do so, that most of these lessons have really been applied.  So we learn them then put them aside.  We can assume that the kids will apply them, but you will need to do that as a parent and make sure it's done. Let's not forget the Narration List in the back of the book that may hit upon descriptors or closing sentences, or opinion, but there's a disconnect there in expectations (or modeling) of what is expected.  If you look at the CM writing samples, which I would really urge you to do, there's something missing, either in the application, the narration checklist, or using the correct terms learned  from writing program to application.  Something.   I think some CM modeling would have been extremely helpful to have in the appendix, to see expectations.    Application is key and I guess I haven't seen that. I've seen longer narrations, but no thoughts, no utilization.  

 

Okay, this is helpful, as was Keri's post. I see more clearly where you're coming from. It's not that HoD isn't covering higher skills, it just isn't applying them. The guides are sticking with early CM skills. I left HoD after RTR, but it was more because of the number of assignments and subjects.

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  :)  I misread the 1/2 credit question if you saw my earlier answer.    but as someone who doesn't use HOD, I would think the "extra 1/2 credit in lit" would be for an Elective on the transcript. 

I'm missing something. There is no extra 1/2 credit.

 

BJU is 1/2 per HOD and per BJU  The  rest of the 1/2 credit, to make up the full credit is doing R&S 7 2 days and EIW 2 days, but what throws a wrench is the 5 extra books all for the same single credit.  The work for the living books isn't worthy of any credit. It's simply narration. So while I think it's just extra, it's not worthy of extra credit either.  Maybe someone understands this scenario. I don't.

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Okay, this is helpful, as was Keri's post. I see more clearly where you're coming from. It's not that HoD isn't covering higher skills, but it isn't applying them. The guides are sticking with early CM skills. I left HoD after RTR, but it was more because of the number of assignments and subjects.

 

Bingo! :hurray:

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Okay, this is helpful, as was Keri's post. I see more clearly where you're coming from. It's not that HoD isn't covering higher skills, but it isn't applying them. The guides are sticking with early CM skills. I left HoD after RTR, but it was more because of the number of assignments and subjects.

 

:iagree:  I left HOD because I could see what was coming: a huge increase in assignments and subjects and not delving deeply into thinking and writing about subjects. I really like their book choices for the most part so I still look at those.

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I'm missing something. There is no extra 1/2 credit.

 

BJU is 1/2 per HOD and per BJU  The  rest of the 1/2 credit, to make up the full credit is doing R&S 7 2 days and EIW 2 days, but what throws a wrench is the 5 extra books all for the same single credit.  The work for the living books isn't worthy of any credit. It's simply narration. So while I think it's just extra, it's not worthy of extra credit either.  Maybe someone understands this scenario. I don't.

This is what the site says-

 

The Living Library Package provides carefully selected living books that coordinate well with the geography plans. These books are not intended to fulfill your student's high school literature credit, as students read separate higher-level literature in the "English" portion of the plans to fulfill that need. Instead, the books in this package were chosen to make geography come to life as students experience various places around the globe. The Living Library Package is highly recommended, unless you need to economize; however, it is not required to earn credit in World Geography.

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I'm missing something. There is no extra 1/2 credit.

 

BJU is 1/2 per HOD and per BJU  The  rest of the 1/2 credit, to make up the full credit is doing R&S 7 2 days and EIW 2 days, but what throws a wrench is the 5 extra books all for the same single credit.  The work for the living books isn't worthy of any credit. It's simply narration. So while I think it's just extra, it's not worthy of extra credit either.  Maybe someone understands this scenario. I don't.

 

then I really misread what you wrote  :)  sorry about that.

I was just following the thread for general interest on an afternoon where I just don't have energy to clean house.... I've never used HOD.

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This is what the site says-

 

The Living Library Package provides carefully selected living books that coordinate well with the geography plans. These books are not intended to fulfill your student's high school literature credit, as students read separate higher-level literature in the "English" portion of the plans to fulfill that need. Instead, the books in this package were chosen to make geography come to life as students experience various places around the globe. The Living Library Package is highly recommended, unless you need to economize; however, it is not required to earn credit in World Geography.

 

I'm not talking about Living Library, although maybe the other poster was.  I'm confused on the 5 extra books for "literature," the Girl Option or Boy Option that is part of the Literature Credit when the BJU/R&S/EIW combo is already 1 credit.

 

Living Library is different and has no credit.  Yes.

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I am wondering if I find this cohesiveness to be missing in the guides, if I could simply use a writing assignment from R&S or EIW and apply to the History or Science portion instead of all the narrating to fix the issue? 

 

Yes.  But that is why I don't want to use the guides any more.  I might as well just use R&S and EIW.(or whatever writing program I'll use) Then have them read a history spine and apply the writing assignment.  Fill it in with extra reading and mapping.  So. much. less. money.

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Well, this is disappointing.  My goals are different than many here (only planning to homeschool up through 7th grade), but I had thought the HOD guides would be a good way to give my kids that depth and breadth in the upper elementary/early middle years with RTR-MMTM without *ME* having to spend the hours upon hours pre-reading, coordinating, correlating, and lesson-planning.  I was looking at it as basically that work was the price of the guide.  

 

Would you (anyone who has used HOD) say this issue is primarily an issue as you get to the high school level, or is it already a problem in the CTC-MMTM levels?

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I am wondering if I find this cohesiveness to be missing in the guides, if I could simply use a writing assignment from R&S or EIW and apply to the History or Science portion instead of all the narrating to fix the issue? 

 

You can very well apply these instead of the narrations that are assigned.  Absolutely!

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Well, this is disappointing.  My goals are different than many here (only planning to homeschool up through 7th grade), but I had thought the HOD guides would be a good way to give my kids that depth and breadth in the upper elementary/early middle years with RTR-MMTM without *ME* having to spend the hours upon hours pre-reading, coordinating, correlating, and lesson-planning.  I was looking at it as basically that work was the price of the guide.  

 

Would you (anyone who has used HOD) say this issue is primarily an issue as you get to the high school level, or is it already a problem in the CTC-MMTM levels?

If you can get your hands on the Narrations book by Sonja Shaefer from the SCM site  (if you like that method) I would utilize that and just increase the information. (SWB's writing lectures are also fantastic! and well worth the listen.)

 

My personal opinion is that it's a bit too lateral, not enough increase and begins early on.  But having that book, going to that site and getting the information, or utilizing all the writing they're learning from R&S or the other writing programs, would definitely be a plus and very doable. 

 

I would have expectations in their writing and most definitely find CM examples of the writing level they're looking for.  They're quite beautiful.  The high school levels aren't complete and most have not done WH yet, so we really don't know how much of a problem it is. 

 

I would just urge you to see CM writing samples.

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Let me say that I don't want to drive anyone away from HOD.  (I) see it as a problem, some may not. But it is, if you're comparing it to the rigor of CM.  I think it can be fixed though if you are worried about it and still use HOD.  Just make the writing better earlier, read up on CM narrations to give you a decent model,  and apply your writing lessons from R&S and other programs they're utilizing to your work in lieu of those basic narrations, continually upping the rigor. I'd rather have 1 great than 3 basic.  And (I) would do it by bypassing the unneeded copywork, common place entries, and summaries in the middle school guides if not by grade 5.  But it's simply my opinion, and just an example.

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Well, this is disappointing.  My goals are different than many here (only planning to homeschool up through 7th grade), but I had thought the HOD guides would be a good way to give my kids that depth and breadth in the upper elementary/early middle years with RTR-MMTM without *ME* having to spend the hours upon hours pre-reading, coordinating, correlating, and lesson-planning.  I was looking at it as basically that work was the price of the guide.  

 

Would you (anyone who has used HOD) say this issue is primarily an issue as you get to the high school level, or is it already a problem in the CTC-MMTM levels?

I just wanted to chime in real quick and say I do not agree with the majority of what has been posted to this thread. ;) I have used Little Hands-RTR(some guides multiple times). I also have Rev to Rev on my shelf. I can not comment on the high school guides because I have never seen them. Honestly I have no experience yet teaching high school, so I'm not going to go there other than to say there is no way they are 6th grade level work.  :lol: The middle school guides do progress in skill each year and are not equal in difficulty. The history narrations get longer and more in depth with each guide and there is added written output with each guide in multiple boxes. The research, science, and discussions questions are also more in depth with each guide. R&S itself is already a complete English curriculum and then there is added writing programs. You can easily use any writing curriculum you desire, it even says that right in the LA box. I also don't agree that there isn't any higher level thinking. If your kid isn't remembering anything they read I think that is a separate issue from HOD. Perhaps history isn't their thing or they need to work on reading comprehension skills. I really don't want to get into a fight with anyone about this. If HOD isn't your cup of tea don't use it, but there are plenty of people using it with great results. If you notice in this thread many people commenting have only used 1 guide or perhaps 2. For those who are looking into HOD and are feeling hesitant now. I encourage you to gather thoughts from multiple places and not just from a negative thread. It is a good thing there are so many different curriculum choices now so people can hopefully find something that fits their style and needs.   :001_smile:

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I just wanted to chime in real quick and say I do not agree with the majority of what has been posted to this thread. ;) I have used Little Hands-RTR(some guides multiple times). I also have Rev to Rev on my shelf. I can not comment on the high school guides because I have never seen them. Honestly I have no experience yet teaching high school, so I'm not going to go there other than to say there is no way they are 6th grade level work.  :lol: The middle school guides do progress in skill each year and are not equal in difficulty. The history narrations get longer and more in depth with each guide and there is added written output with each guide in multiple boxes. The research, science, and discussions questions are also more in depth with each guide. R&S itself is already a complete English curriculum and then there is added writing programs. You can easily use any writing curriculum you desire, it even says that right in the LA box. I also don't agree that there isn't any higher level thinking. If your kid isn't remembering anything they read I think that is a separate issue from HOD. Perhaps history isn't their thing or they need to work on reading comprehension skills. I really don't want to get into a fight with anyone about this. If HOD isn't your cup of tea don't use it, but there are plenty of people using it with great results. If you notice in this thread most people commenting have only used 1 guide and a few have used a couple of guides. For those who are looking into HOD and are feeling hesitant now. I encourage you to gather thoughts from multiple places and not just from a negative thread. It is a good thing there are so many different curriculum choices now so people can hopefully find something that fits their style and needs.   :001_smile:

I've used the guides from Beyond and now have WG to begin in the fall, so I've used it all the way through.

 

No one is saying there aren't "any" higher level thinking.  The fact is I've gathered my information from many places and just don't see the progression as I feel it should be and certainly not to the rigor of CM according to the samples in the CM book.  My child loves history and loves to write.  Longer and more doesn't mean more thoughtful or depth.   Longer summaries are just longer summaries - an additive or a void of detail. And detail doesn't equal depth of thought either.   For me, I'm  talking higher level thinking skills and you've complete RTR.    But it's been our experiences that something is missing and you have another experience.  That's okay. 

 

Not everyone's children learn the same and enjoy the same things.  From our experiences we feel there's a common problem, however how much or how little we've all used.   And this has far been a "negative thread", but an honest and insightful one with respect and it's been quite appreciated.   Perhaps you can add your more detailed experiences. I'm sure it would add to the thread and be welcomed.    

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I've used the guides from Beyond and now have WG to begin in the fall, so I've used it all the way through.

 

No one is saying there aren't "any" higher level thinking.  The fact is I've gathered my information from many places and just don't see the progression as I feel it should be and certainly not to the rigor of CM according to the samples in the CM book.  My child loves history and loves to write.  Longer and more doesn't mean more thoughtful or depth.   Longer summaries are just longer summaries - an additive or a void of detail. And detail doesn't equal depth of thought either.   For me, I'm  talking higher level thinking skills and you've complete RTR.    But it's been our experiences that something is missing and you have another experience.  That's okay. 

 

Not everyone's children learn the same and enjoy the same things.  From our experiences we feel there's a common problem, however how much or how little we've all used.   And this has far been a "negative thread", but an honest and insightful one with respect and it's been quite appreciated.   Perhaps you can add your more detailed experiences. I'm sure it would add to the thread and be welcomed.    

 

I specifically said HOD isn't for everyone and that is ok. ;) I can't imagine any curriculum is. I was just trying to offer a different opinion. This thread indeed feels extremely negative to me and I'm sure it does to others as well. From several of the comments my impression was that their opinion is that HOD has no higher level thinking and that it doesn't progress in skills. Some even went as far as to say the middle school and even high school guides were elementary level. That is what I don't agree with. Also if you are completely tweaking and omitting large portions of the guides then you are not going to see the progression of skills as they are written. I can say for my kids especially my oldest(since he has used more guides) I can see a lot of growth from year to year in every subject. He is really into history and science, so he is always telling me about the things he has read, which has brought on many thoughtful discussions. That is just something we do naturally though. I do not need someone to tell me to do it. Personally I am very happy with HOD for my family. I appreciate how the guides progress and how many things my kids have and will learn. I honestly wish I could have had a curriculum like this as a child. The three years I spent at PS(4th,5th, and 6th) didn't even hold a candle to anything that my ds has done with HOD for those grades. Of course my oldest is only just finishing 6th grade so I am no expert by any means nor do I claim to be. I have spent a lot of time looking over different curriculum choices and chose HOD because I felt it was the best choice. I can't imagine spending the amount of money on it I have if I didn't think that.  :lol: I have hesitated to even jump into this discussion because I do not like confrontation at all and get nervous when I disagree with anyone. To address the above comments about the narration I do not think HOD just requires longer written output with each guide. Of course with each guide you are to expect deeper thought and depth coming from a narration and other written work. You would expect and require more depth from a narration written by a 7th-8th grader than you would from say a 4th grader using Preparing. I would think that is obvious and just a natural progression of skills. The application of grammar should be expected and assumed as a child progresses through each guide. My ds writes a rough draft of his narration and then I go over it with him before he writes it in his notebook. If I don't find it up to my standard then he has to change it or rewrite it. Hopefully that makes sense. I'm always willing to share my experience with HOD.

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