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ChocolateReign

Accusations in the past against Josh Duggar? (warning: sensitive content)

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They use both, and Switched on Schoolhouse was a promo deal they started using only after the show had been going a few years. ATI is their core religious belief.

 

I have only seen the shows that were on Netflix a while back, and not even all of them. SOS showed up on their computers once or twice and was mentioned on their website somewhere.

 

So the older kids were actually educated with the ATI materials? I had not realized that they had a whole curriculum going.

 

I would love to hear anything you know about either of these -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. I am trying to wrap my mind around how the family got he way they are.

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I'm starting to think people must hate the gays more than child molesters. I didn't think it could get any worse. I was wrong.

Only when they're born-again Christian child molesters who have been through the Jesus Saves Soul Restoration and Sin Wash as patented by Bill Gothard. They're way better than all us unrepentant GLBTQueers living in sin.

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Or make a tater tot casserole.

.

 

Or EAT a tater tot casserole.

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It's the "great art" trumps criminal acts justification.

I also suspect that pedophilia is more common in Hollywood than other places. Just based on interviews I've read with former child stars it seems to be pretty common that they were abused by someone in their career while they were coming up.

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Probably because a lot of people in Hollywood are gay, and you know what a danger the gayz are to our kids!

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I have only seen the shows that were on Netflix a while back, and not even all of them. SOS showed up on their computers once or twice and was mentioned on their website somewhere.

 

So the older kids were actually educated with the ATI materials? I had not realized that they had a whole curriculum going.

 

I would love to hear anything you know about either of these -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. I am trying to wrap my mind around how the family got he way they are.

 

The Duggars didn't create the ATI curriculum. That was the brain child of Bill Gothard. The Duggars are followers of his.

 

I just came across this article written by a former ATI student. I spent years in a church where Mr. Gothard was revered. We didn't qualify for ATI because my dh had facial hair, and he was wise enough to refuse to shave just so we could join our friends on that journey. I am, however, familiar enough with the program to be able to confirm just about every statement made here:

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/the-many-valuable-lessons-i-learned-in-ati-lauras-story/

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I also suspect that pedophilia is more common in Hollywood than other places. Just based on interviews I've read with former child stars it seems to be pretty common that they were abused by someone in their career while they were coming up.

The rate of childhood sexual abuse is shockingly high everywhere. I don't think that what you recall hearing child stars say means that it's a larger problem there than other places. You are probably more likely to read books and hear interviews about child stars.

 

It's an appallingly large problem. Every. Where.

 

http://www.victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics

 

Studies by David Finkelhor, Director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center, show that:

 

1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys is a victim of child sexual abuse;

Self-report studies show that 20% of adult females and 5-10% of adult males recall a childhood sexual assault or sexual abuse incident;

During a one-year period in the U.S., 16% of youth ages 14 to 17 had been sexually victimized;

Over the course of their lifetime, 28% of U.S. youth ages 14 to 17 had been sexually victimized;

Children are most vulnerable to CSA between the ages of 7 and 13.

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A difference of two years ( 9 and 11) versus a difference of ten years ( 4 and 14). There is a huge difference here, and earlier in the thread someone linked a pamphlet describing what might be normal curiosity and what isn't, it identifies some of the ways this is a big difference.

If it's abuse it's abuse. An 11 year old can coerce a 9 yo. Age difference is just one factor. This happened with a friend's children, about that age span and ages when the girl disclosed. The girl was traumatized. Fortunately, their mother took it seriously. (Their bio-father just tried to use it as an excuse to get back custody of the boy).

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The Duggars didn't create the ATI curriculum. That was the brain child of Bill Gothard. The Duggars are followers of his.

 

I just came across this article written by a former ATI student. I spent years in a church where Mr. Gothard was revered. We didn't qualify for ATI because my dh had facial hair, and he was wise enough to refuse to shave just so we could join our friends on that journey. I am, however, familiar enough with the program to be able to confirm just about every statement made here:

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/the-many-valuable-lessons-i-learned-in-ati-lauras-story/

Facial hair: an inoculation against Gothardism. See beards are more than practical, warm and sexy. They keep Gothard away.

 

I never understood the clean shaven requirement...do they think men in the Bible had Gillettes laying around?

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Apparently Ben Seewald, Jessa's new husband posted this on his instagram page.

 

 

“A little late in posting, but I had a wonderful Mother’s day with my Mom and wife! I want to give a shout out to my Mom and Dad,†Ben wrote. “They’ve been loving, caring, and provided us with a good home and many happy memories. While many parents are abusing their children, earning the condemnation of God, my parents have always been protective of us and by God’s grace have made our home a safe haven.â€

He also said, 

 

“They loved us enough to have standards, rooted in Scripture, and stick by them even when it would’ve been easier for them just to let us do whatever we wanted to. They loved us too much for that. That’s a lot to say in this culture where parents who care enough to set standards for their kids are mocked and dishonored and where the ones who yield to their rebellious children in compromise are praised as ‘loving.'â€

 

Interesting choice of words for sure.  Maybe he doesn't share the same beliefs as his mother and father.  I would really love to know what the girls think.

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Facial hair: an inoculation against Gothardism. See beards are more than practical, warm and sexy. They keep Gothard away.

 

I never understood the clean shaven requirement...do they think men in the Bible had Gillettes laying around?

 

I think it's one of those things like curled hair and collared shirts- ostensibly they speak to character, but really they're just as far from being a rebellious hippie as possible.

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Apparently Ben Seewald, Jessa's new husband posted this on his instagram page.

 

 

“A little late in posting, but I had a wonderful Mother’s day with my Mom and wife! I want to give a shout out to my Mom and Dad,†Ben wrote. “They’ve been loving, caring, and provided us with a good home and many happy memories. While many parents are abusing their children, earning the condemnation of God, my parents have always been protective of us and by God’s grace have made our home a safe haven.â€

He also said, 

 

“They loved us enough to have standards, rooted in Scripture, and stick by them even when it would’ve been easier for them just to let us do whatever we wanted to. They loved us too much for that. That’s a lot to say in this culture where parents who care enough to set standards for their kids are mocked and dishonored and where the ones who yield to their rebellious children in compromise are praised as ‘loving.'â€

 

Interesting choice of words for sure.  Maybe he doesn't share the same beliefs as his mother and father.  I would really love to know what the girls think.

 

I read this when he posted it and didn't think much of it, as it was before all this came out. Now though, I am wondering if they knew what was coming.

 

I hope and pray these two new Duggar husbands will stand up for their wives and what is right; maybe it would give some of the others the courage and support to escape!

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Apparently Ben Seewald, Jessa's new husband posted this on his instagram page.

 

 

“A little late in posting, but I had a wonderful Mother’s day with my Mom and wife! I want to give a shout out to my Mom and Dad,†Ben wrote. “They’ve been loving, caring, and provided us with a good home and many happy memories. While many parents are abusing their children, earning the condemnation of God, my parents have always been protective of us and by God’s grace have made our home a safe haven.â€

He also said,

 

“They loved us enough to have standards, rooted in Scripture, and stick by them even when it would’ve been easier for them just to let us do whatever we wanted to. They loved us too much for that. That’s a lot to say in this culture where parents who care enough to set standards for their kids are mocked and dishonored and where the ones who yield to their rebellious children in compromise are praised as ‘loving.'â€

 

Interesting choice of words for sure. Maybe he doesn't share the same beliefs as his mother and father. I would really love to know what the girls think.

Why can't these people say something nice without a jab at others???

 

I mean even snarky I don't post things like "had a great day with my dad on his birthday! He's been a wonderful atheist and skeptic father! While other dads are indoctrinating their children in bizarre old fashioned myths and fantasies, my father always encouraged intellectual pursuits and freethinking. "

 

What turds.

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I read this when he posted it and didn't think much of it, as it was before all this came out. Now though, I am wondering if they knew what was coming.

 

I hope and pray these two new Duggar husbands will stand up for their wives and what is right; maybe it would give some of the others the courage and support to escape!

 

 

Hmmmm... I actually did not know he posted this before.  I'm not sure what to think.

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I think it's one of those things like curled hair and collared shirts- ostensibly they speak to character, but really they're just as far from being a rebellious hippie as possible.

Make no mistake about it. The "gently curled" hair thing? That's Gothard's preference for what is attractive on women. It makes zero sense that God would require you to curl the hair he made straight or relax the hair he made tightly curled. That stricture is about what gets Gothard off.

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They must have known it was coming out.  It's not that large a town and his brother is a constable for the police force.  IDK if Arkansas is like other states, but in most areas you volunteer as a police officer or sheriff's reserves or constable or whatever in order to eventually get hired on full time.  Once you've been through the training, you're part of the force, even before a full time job.  Someone in the office would have given the brother a heads up that the FOIA request came in, that they would have to comply, that they'd take a few days to get names redacted, etc, but that it would come out.

 

There's no way John David, the parents, and Josh didn't know.    Anna posted something about forgiveness on her account.

 

I wouldn't doubt they would have told everyone in the family.  At least the adults.  Then it came out and someone figured out Joy Anna could request it be destroyed so the unredacted report wouldn't come out when she turned 18 and she did request that.

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Facial hair: an inoculation against Gothardism. See beards are more than practical, warm and sexy. They keep Gothard away.

 

I never understood the clean shaven requirement...do they think men in the Bible had Gillettes laying around?

 

If I remember correctly, the no facial hair policy falls under the Principle of Design: How to Discover Life Purpose through Self-Acceptance. (I had to look up the official title -- I have some of the IBLP stuff hanging around still. It comes in handy when discussions like this pop up.) The idea is that we need to accept how God made us, and growing facial hair is an attempt to cover that up. This would fall under #8 of God's 10 Unchangeables: My Physical Features.

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Make no mistake about it. The "gently curled" hair thing? That's Gothard's preference for what is attractive on women. It makes zero sense that God would require you to curl the hair he made straight or relax the hair he made tightly curled. That stricture is about what gets Gothard off.

 

Yes, though there's also standards for men's hair.  All hairstyles are supposed to be "done" and reflect all of their stupid character qualities- I can't find the link right now but I saw an article about it in the past few days.

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It's the "great art" trumps criminal acts justification. I don't buy it but then again, I don't think I've seen any Polanski or Woody Allen movies, so maybe I don't know from great art when it comes to movies. There's enough "good enough" art which isn't made by child rapists and molesters, for me to enjoy my life ignorant to seeing Polanski's movies.

 

Polanski is, in addition to having raped a 13 year old, very sexist. I've read enough literature by misogynistic white men, I don't need to add watching their movies to my to-do list.

 

My mother used to drag me to WA movies back in the 70's.  I thought they were all *VERY* weird. and I mean WEIRD. (I have often questioned her judgment) I eventually said "enough" and  never saw another one. (though I have seen snippets here and there as an adult.  still weird.)  I saw rosemary's baby (Polanski) on TV (in the 70's).  another weird movie.

Make no mistake about it. The "gently curled" hair thing? That's Gothard's preference for what is attractive on women. It makes zero sense that God would require you to curl the hair he made straight or relax the hair he made tightly curled. That stricture is about what gets Gothard off.

 

there had to have been something in the culture within which he grew up.  My grandmother - who was before gothard's time, but probably came from the same type of environment in which he stewed - was the same way. My hair was incredibly straight as a child - but she was constantly pushing for me to have perms. My hair is extremely resistant.  she made my mother constantly have perms as a child.  (40's)  all the pictures from that time my mother had very tight curls.

she even tried to get us to shave off my dad's beard when he was asleep.  oh, and cut the "too long" hair of any male family member.  while they were asleep.

I wonder if that's a contributing factor to whenever my mother wanted to give my hair a trim, it would end up so lopsided it had to be short.  I had always wanted long hair, but as soon as I'd start to get it there, it'd get cut off.

you could say the people who have most to gain from telling women with straight to perm, and women with curly to straighten are beauty product companies.

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Yes, though there's also standards for men's hair. All hairstyles are supposed to be "done" and reflect all of their stupid character qualities- I can't find the link right now but I saw an article about it in the past few days.

The standard seems to be if you are a dude, you need to look like Gothard did in his yearbook picture.

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If I remember correctly, the no facial hair policy falls under the Principle of Design: How to Discover Life Purpose through Self-Acceptance. (I had to look up the official title -- I have some of the IBLP stuff hanging around still. It comes in handy when discussions like this pop up.) The idea is that we need to accept how God made us, and growing facial hair is an attempt to cover that up. This would fall under #8 of God's 10 Unchangeables: My Physical Features.

 

By that standard women growing long hair is an attempt to cover up the perfectly good bald heads God gave us.  But Gothard wouldn't want all the ladies to look like Ani DiFranco after a buzz cut.  

 

If God didn't want my husband to have a beard he really shouldn't have given him thick, dark, coarse, very fast growing facial hair paired with pale sensitive skin prone to ingrown hairs.   :lol:  Some men get 5 o'clock shadow, he gets such a shadow by lunch time.  And if he shaves too much or too often his face is a mess of red bumps.  It's a very neat, groomed non-hippie beard though but I guess that's not enough for Gothard's redemption.  

 

The link you posted covers the inconsistencies so well.  Thanks for sharing it.  

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If I remember correctly, the no facial hair policy falls under the Principle of Design: How to Discover Life Purpose through Self-Acceptance. (I had to look up the official title -- I have some of the IBLP stuff hanging around still. It comes in handy when discussions like this pop up.) The idea is that we need to accept how God made us, and growing facial hair is an attempt to cover that up. This would fall under #8 of God's 10 Unchangeables: My Physical Features.

But it's cutting facial hair that changes the natural way an adult male person is made...

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But it's cutting facial hair that changes the natural way an adult male person is made...

You are such a sinner for saying that. :D

 

STOP MAKING SENSE!!! (Making sense goes against Gothard principles, in case you didn't know.)

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But it's cutting facial hair that changes the natural way an adult male person is made...

 

Well now, don't go expecting logic or consistency from Bill Gothard's proscriptions for how to live the perfect life.   :lol:

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Well now, don't go expecting logic or consistency from Bill Gothard's proscriptions for how to live the perfect life. :lol:

It wouldn't be perfect if it was easy. ;)

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Hmmmm... I actually did not know he posted this before.  I'm not sure what to think.

 

 

He posted it shortly after Mother's Day, which was before this news went public.

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But it's cutting facial hair that changes the natural way an adult male person is made...

 

Let's just say consistency and logic are not among Mr. Gothard's strengths.

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Facial hair: an inoculation against Gothardism. See beards are more than practical, warm and sexy. They keep Gothard away.

 

I never understood the clean shaven requirement...do they think men in the Bible had Gillettes laying around?

 

Ben Seewald and Derick Dillard both have beards.  Does this mean that they aren't part of this Gothard group that the Duggars are involved with?  

 

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Ben Seewald and Derick Dillard both have beards. Does this mean that they aren't part of this Gothard group that the Duggars are involved with?

 

If I recall correctly they dropped the beard thing at some point. But like MyThreeSons, I remember it being "a thing" in the early 90s when I went.

 

I just looked it up and it went away in the mid 90s. Do I think they started to become more accepting? No. I think attendance was way down and they needed to not turn away any warm butts with checkbooks.

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He posted it shortly after Mother's Day, which was before this news went public.

 

Yes. That what makes it more interesting.  It's hard not to read into it, at least a little bit, after these horrible things have come out about Josh, and specifically about how the parents handled it. 

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Boyer is lying.

 

 

 

 

That's a lie.

 

I think HE is hoping people are suckers that they will believe HIS lie and not the facts.

 

Right.  That's why people need to read the source documents instead of listening to what other people claim they say.

 

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Hide? Do you walk around discussing every crime or sin you or your family has ever committed? I don't. And yet I can say I believe things are wrong even if I have committed that wrong or if a family member has.

He lost his moral authority when he escaped any civil penalties for his crimes due to the actions of adults in his life. Do you think someone who commits murder and gets away with it should take a job lecturing others about the immorality of not paying parking tickets?

 

He lost his moral authority when he put his ego and desires ahead of his innocent victims and took a prominent jobs with a controversial political organization, almost guaranteeing that his victims would suffer even more when his crimes were exposed.

 

If he was really so concerned about sexual sins and wanted to stop others from going down that path, then he should have used his story as a guide to the pitfalls of sexual sin, instead of attacking others while presenting himself as a model family man. And ideally, he would have focused on sexual sins like his where there are actual victims. Although since I'm not sure he could have done that without bringing harm to his victims, he should have just kept his mouth shut and worked quietly to make the world a better place.

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The Duggars didn't create the ATI curriculum. That was the brain child of Bill Gothard. The Duggars are followers of his.

 

I just came across this article written by a former ATI student. I spent years in a church where Mr. Gothard was revered. We didn't qualify for ATI because my dh had facial hair, and he was wise enough to refuse to shave just so we could join our friends on that journey. I am, however, familiar enough with the program to be able to confirm just about every statement made here:

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/the-many-valuable-lessons-i-learned-in-ati-lauras-story/

 

 

wow. seriously?!  :(  :mad:

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hornblower, on 27 May 2015 - 1:58 PM, said:

Why can't these people say something nice without a jab at others???

 

I mean even snarky I don't post things like "had a great day with my dad on his birthday! He's been a wonderful atheist and skeptic father! While other dads are indoctrinating their children in bizarre old fashioned myths and fantasies, my father always encouraged intellectual pursuits and freethinking. "

 

What turds.

 

I know, right ?

 

Plus, we have the same dad.

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I just came across this article written by a former ATI student. I spent years in a church where Mr. Gothard was revered. We didn't qualify for ATI because my dh had facial hair, and he was wise enough to refuse to shave just so we could join our friends on that journey. I am, however, familiar enough with the program to be able to confirm just about every statement made here:

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/the-many-valuable-lessons-i-learned-in-ati-lauras-story/

 

 Had to stop when I got to this one:

 

"* Folly of any kind is a waste of time and damages your testimony. Avoid all practical jokes. Avoid loud laughter."

 

Because I was laughing too hard at all the foolishness. When I wasn't chasing my eyeballs across the floor after some spectacularly eye-popping eye rolls.

 

Yikes. Seriously, this is scary stuff, and close enough to what some folks I know espouse in real life that it's making me laugh and feel queasy all at the same time. And awfully sad. Best stop there and go to bed.

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  Avoid all practical jokes. 

 

this one is funny to me - in a sad way.  I think of two people I know who definitely have (good-natured) mischievous streaks. both of them. and they are deeply religious.

 

I will also say - neither one of them has any guile.  I say that in all seriousness, and I say that about hardly anyone. I can't think of anyone else offhand. (okay, I'm biased ONE of them is one of my kids, and almost anyone who knows said kid would agree.  the other is just a family friend.  an absolutely brilliant man who is also one of the nicest - and humblest - guys you'll ever meet.)

but they also want those they are with to have a good time too.

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 Had to stop when I got to this one:

 

"* Folly of any kind is a waste of time and damages your testimony. Avoid all practical jokes. Avoid loud laughter."

 

Because I was laughing too hard at all the foolishness. When I wasn't chasing my eyeballs across the floor after some spectacularly eye-popping eye rolls.

 

Yikes. Seriously, this is scary stuff, and close enough to what some folks I know espouse in real life that it's making me laugh and feel queasy all at the same time. And awfully sad. Best stop there and go to bed.

 

No. No.  The practical jokes thing is true.  My parents loved practical jokes. They played them all the time on each other and on my brother and me.  My mom once almost-famously said, "you know... the only reason we had you kids was so we'd have someone else to play practical jokes on besides each other."

 

And my brother and I are both rabid heathens.

 

Point proven.

 

;)

:P

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I guess it is ridiculous we thought Arkansas CPS would behave rationally to their most famous family.

Um, we have families more famous than the Duggars. Just sayin'.

 

We probably have some more infamous as well. :/

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If I remember correctly, the no facial hair policy falls under the Principle of Design: How to Discover Life Purpose through Self-Acceptance. (I had to look up the official title -- I have some of the IBLP stuff hanging around still. It comes in handy when discussions like this pop up.) The idea is that we need to accept how God made us, and growing facial hair is an attempt to cover that up. This would fall under #8 of God's 10 Unchangeables: My Physical Features.

 

 

Um...but God made the facial hair!  The total lack of logic astounds me. 

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Regarding home school curriculum- I recall seeing early shows where they were around the table using the ATI wisdom booklets.I also recall shows where they would load up into the RV and head off to a "home school convention" which was actually an ATI specific convention. They even put a sign on the RV that said something to the effect of "ATI ,here we come"

 

I read one of the books the Duggars wrote and Michelle did mention other curriculum they used. ACE paces were mentioned for certain levels and subjects.I don't recall what else was mentioned. Maybe SOS. I know they got an advertising deal through them. Does anyone know if Alpha Omega still uses the Duggars as spokespersons ?

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Facial hair: an inoculation against Gothardism. See beards are more than practical, warm and sexy. They keep Gothard away.

 

I never understood the clean shaven requirement...do they think men in the Bible had Gillettes laying around?

 

 

My understanding is that the clean shaven image came during the hippie movement.  It was a way to clearly show that you were not one of "those."

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FWIW, dunno if this has any relation to the ATI thing,  in traditional Judaism, men generally have beards.  I believe (this is not my little corner of the tradition) it's based on Leviticus 19:27, and further elaborated in Talmud and Kabbalah (other sacred texts within the tradition).  The Torah and Talmud speak to the use of razors and the Kabbalah to the symbolism of beards connecting the head/spiritual aspect to the body/physical aspect of the selves.

 

(My husband's beard comes in a different color than the hair on his head.  It's pretty funny.  On vacation.)

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(My husband's beard comes in a different color than the hair on his head.  It's pretty funny.  On vacation.)

I think that is pretty common.  My fil had dark hair - his beard was red.  my blonde brother's beard was red.  my son's beard is red (his hair was auburn when he was born, fell out before three months and came in tow.  it's now a med. blonde.)

I know other men who have the same thing.

 

dh has a red beard -but his hair is red.  ;)

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Something I was just reminded of while reading another blog:

 

In addition to the "no folly" instruction mentioned above, Mr. Gothard talks about how the word "teenager" is a modern term, and that there were no "teenagers" mentioned in the Bible. His point is that when a young person becomes 12 or 13, he is no longer a child, should act as an adult, etc. This seems to me to be in conflict with what those who are being somewhat dismissive of Josh's actions because they happened "when he was a young teenager". 

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(My husband's beard comes in a different color than the hair on his head.  It's pretty funny.  On vacation.)

 

My hubby has no head hair.  His beard is multi-colored. :)

 

My son is blonde on top and has a red beard!  

 

Someone told me that if I shave Benjamin's head, his hair will come in thicker, faster, and redder (he's strawberry blonde).  Hmmmm

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Actually, to be totally honest, my husband used to have dark brown head hair, and now it's.... salt and pepper.

 

And he used to have red beard hair, and now it's... well, he calls it "salt and paprika."   :lol:

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