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R&S math 3 to Saxon 4/5 over the summer? Is it possible?


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I'm trying to place my daughter in a 4th grade Saxon math program next year.  She is at the end of 3rd, and 9 years old.  And math is just not sticking with her at all, in spite of a few different approaches over the last 2 years.  She is bright, and quick to pick up most any other subject.  She is a wonderful reader and storyteller.  Her writing and spelling are fine.  

 

But we've been trying, in vain, to learn our basic multiplication/division facts this year, without any forward movement in months.  We will do flash cards & drills, but the answers are forgotten in moments once we move to the paper. Every day is very, very challenging for everyone in the home when math is being done by this young girl.  Tears and tantrums are daily happenings for us.   So I am hoping that others with more experience (or experience with a child like this) might offer some advice as to what course to take.  We are using R & S 3 this year, because I thought the simplicity of the program would appeal to her.  We have moved a little more than half way through the book after 2+ hours a day plugging away at it.  I've tried doing math orally with her to move away from the dreaded paper, but she honestly likes independence in most of her subjects.  Math is so different and I can't find her "key."

 

I've had some experience with most of the major math programs, although math is not my strong point.  Singapore, R&S, Right Start and a few other summer type programs.  My oldest is finishing up 6th grade and Saxon 7/6 with great success though, and after a few rocky years with Saxon, that seems to be a good fit for him.  I'd like to move her over to the Saxon program simply because I don't think I can juggle multiple math curricula with 3 children (my other is a 3yo) and all the other subjects to keep up on.  I can barely keep up with the way Saxon is teaching things.   Between 3rd and 6th grade, we are finishing between 3-4:30 pm every day. This is technically our 7th year homeschooling, and I'm really burned out as it is by the end of the day.   I'm not sure more time will get us where we need to be, either.  She tends to hit a wall, and be unwilling to let new information in.  I'm tempted to hire a tutor to give her that extra one on one time though, but thought I'd try to find some ideas here first.  The idea of a tutor terrifies her.  According to the S & S I would put her firmly in the middle of Saxon 3, and not strong there.  But going back to easier facts hasn't been helpful either.  So we are in this terrible middle ground.  

 

Specifically:  What can I do between May and August to get her back on track?  I feel like the last 2 years, I've been too relaxed and "waiting" for her to mature enough to tackle this (while working more on character development, which was, and is, sorely needed.)  But I need a practical solution at this point.  We are addressing it on the "parenting" front, but as her teacher I want to see her move forward, as her abilities are so strong in all other areas.  So I don't think waiting is a good approach.  I need to work with her, but in a different way.  Any ideas?  Has anyone experienced this with their dc?  Any short term programs or online bridge programs?  

 

I apologize for rambling on.  I've been reading these forums for years and for some reason this one issue is taking our whole school down a sad path every day.   I'm having trouble summarizing here without crying myself.  She is such a smart girl and I feel like I am failing her miserably in this area.  I'm very open to ideas!

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Ok, wait...your dd is just 9yo. She has not yet finished R&S's third grade text...but you want her to do a 4th grade level? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

 

She's *just 9.* It doesn't sound as if she's really off track to me.

 

Also, when you say you're doing "Exploring Arithmetic," does that mean you are doing the brief scripted oral class time with her first, and then she does the assignments in the textbook? Do you allow her to write *just the answers* for the drills, or are you requiring her to write out all of them, as well? (The word problems need to be written out, but only the answers need to be written for the drills, although they could also be done orally.)

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What Ellie said. Rushing her along won't do her any favors. I would absolutely be doing the teaching portion from the R&S TM, and not make her write out whole problems. I let mine write answers directly in the 3 textbook. It had plenty of space, and isn't an expensive text. ;)

 

If the placement test put her in Saxon 3, using the 3 book is not going back; it's meeting her where she is. :001_smile: It sounds like you really want to use Saxon next year. I'd put her precisely where the placement test scores and start moving forward from there. I'd start at the beginning of that 3 book too, but I'd probably let her test out of early sections with the reviews until she found one she couldn't pass on her own.

 

For what it's worth, that 5/4 on the Saxon cover technically means average-to-bright 4th grader, average-to-slower 5th grader. Not starting 5/4 until 5th grade still puts her on track for algebra 1 in 9th grade. That's respectable. If she starts getting math better down the road she can work through summers, test out of the early sections of the books, and speed that track up on her own. :001_smile:

 

If it helps, having younger DC in math curricula from different companies doesn't add time to my day.  It might seem like having them all in the same type of course would streamline the day, but it doesn't really play out that way. I have 5 school age kids this year, ranging from ending first grade to ending tenth grade. The younger ones all need me involved no matter the publisher of their math book. *shrug* Perhaps look at some of the scheduling threads for suggestions that may work for you? Or start your own. Others like to list everything they're doing and ask others how they'd condense it or make it more simple while still covering necessities.

 

For some encouragement, my oldest struggled mightily with math for a long time. When he couldn't succeed we camped right there. Yes, he was usually "behind" grade level. Every so often he'd have a mental growth spurt and he'd fly up to grade level. Then he'd slow down again. It was a tortoise/hare sort of process. We repeated many chapters. He's finishing tenth grade now. There was a time I wondered if we'd ever get him through algebra!  :ack2:  Now he has school two years left, and he's ready to start algebra 2. :cool:

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I jumped ship from R&S 3 to MUS Alpha with my middle child, which probably isn't what you wanted to hear. The difference in presentation of concepts between the two programs is night and day. I was doing the entire teaching portion of the lesson with her every day with R&S, and no matter how much time we spent on math she showed little to no forward progression in her understanding. She has now completed MUS Delta, and has concrete understanding of the four basic operations and has almost completely memorized her multiplication tables. She has asked to switch from MUS, so I am moving her to Horizons. But I am very, very thankful that I used MUS for the time that I did. Mr. Demme explains concepts in a totally different way than I do, which was just what my daughter needed.

 

If you don't want to use the full MUS program, go through as many of the Education Unboxed videos as you need to help her understand what she is missing (the presentation of concepts is virtually identical to MUS). Let her do math problems using the blocks for as long as it takes for her to fully grasp what she is doing when she does a written problem.

 

Have you used skip counting songs to help her learn her multiplication facts? Some kids never memorize their multiplication tables, so as long as she understands what multiplication is (repeated addition) and can use a method (skip counting) to reach the correct answer, that might have to be okay for right now.  

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Ellie, You are absolutely right.  I've been telling myself this for 2 years though, and at some point the daily teaching becomes useless.  Now I felt this way with my oldest when we were stuck for a month or two sometimes, but never for this length of time.  Honestly, I would be happy letting her set the pace, except that in all other areas she shines.  And math placement often "labels" a student in all areas.  I'm trying to help her avoid that if at all possible.  Slower progress in her other subjects would be exceptionally frustrating for her.  But I suppose that is the beauty of homeschooling and the "stigma" only really comes into play if I place her in a school.   Which I am sorely tempted to do at this point. 

 

In our area, Saxon 4/5 is for 3rd graders and sometimes 2nd graders (our local Classical school).   

 

Is Saxon 4/5 really so far ahead of Rod & Staff 3?  If we begin again, at the start of a 3rd grade program.. it will be attempt number 4 to rehash that material.  She gets to line 2 (of 8 or 10) and just blanks.  I feel like I need a new approach of some kind.  I will take a look at MUS again.  I wasn't happy with the scope and sequence in that program when I looked at it before, but anything would be an improvement at this point! :)

 

She wouldn't even read the full questions on the Saxon test... we basically say "math" and she panics.   I had my husband administer it hoping she would approach it with less fear.   I was hoping there was some kind of online "camp" or short term program that could reboot the way we approach it with her.  

 

I looked at the CLE evaluation test last night though, and I think I will try teaching from that  in order to help with the way she "reads" the problems.   We've been so focused on facts, that other elements like measurement & decimals have been delayed even further.  I might try doing those and circling back to the facts.   I also like the way CLE doesn't have multiple books she has to shuffle back and forth (and lose).  Has anyone switched to CLE and had success?

 

I will look at Education Unboxed too, thank you!! 

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Saxon 4/5 is a textbook. I personally would not use anything besides a workbook to make things as simple as possible. If you are having this much stress with math I would also take a break, maybe not for the whole summer, but for a month or a few weeks or something. Math shouldn't take 2 hours a day. Hugs!!

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Ellie, You are absolutely right.  I've been telling myself this for 2 years though, and at some point the daily teaching becomes useless.  Now I felt this way with my oldest when we were stuck for a month or two sometimes, but never for this length of time.  Honestly, I would be happy letting her set the pace, except that in all other areas she shines.  And math placement often "labels" a student in all areas.  I'm trying to help her avoid that if at all possible.  Slower progress in her other subjects would be exceptionally frustrating for her.  But I suppose that is the beauty of homeschooling and the "stigma" only really comes into play if I place her in a school.   Which I am sorely tempted to do at this point. 

 

In our area, Saxon 4/5 is for 3rd graders and sometimes 2nd graders (our local Classical school).   

 

Is Saxon 4/5 really so far ahead of Rod & Staff 3?  If we begin again, at the start of a 3rd grade program.. it will be attempt number 4 to rehash that material.  She gets to line 2 (of 8 or 10) and just blanks.  I feel like I need a new approach of some kind.  I will take a look at MUS again.  I wasn't happy with the scope and sequence in that program when I looked at it before, but anything would be an improvement at this point! :)

 

She wouldn't even read the full questions on the Saxon test... we basically say "math" and she panics.   I had my husband administer it hoping she would approach it with less fear.   I was hoping there was some kind of online "camp" or short term program that could reboot the way we approach it with her.  

 

I looked at the CLE evaluation test last night though, and I think I will try teaching from that  in order to help with the way she "reads" the problems.   We've been so focused on facts, that other elements like measurement & decimals have been delayed even further.  I might try doing those and circling back to the facts.   I also like the way CLE doesn't have multiple books she has to shuffle back and forth (and lose).  Has anyone switched to CLE and had success?

 

I will look at Education Unboxed too, thank you!! 

 

It's 54, not 45. :-)

 

Yes, Math 54 is "ahead" of R&S's third grade book. 

 

But my question was if you are doing the scripted oral class time with her. Yes? No?

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To me this is the time to do something like teaching textbooks kids like it since its a little "behind " you can go back without it seeming like it.  It would also take you out of the equation of for awhile I would do levels 4 and 5 and than move into Saxon when her confidence is restored.

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Ellie,  See I can't even get the numbers right on the front of the textbook.   ;) Thanks for your comparison between R&S & saxon.  It is so helpful.  The answer to your other question is yes.  But not every day.  Partly because she is not completing her work from the last scripted/lesson teaching time.  It's the page work that is so difficult for her.  The worksheets less so, the facts send her into fits.   And partly because of me, as we are preparing for our 6th move in 3 years, and building a house.  Which is no excuse (or becomes less of an excuse when you seem to be moving serially.  I was hoping for more independence by this stage, at least for 20 minutes or so during math so I could work with my older.  But your point is well made.  Maybe if I take away the independent portion of the day, it would increase her understanding and frustrate her less.  

 

One thing that has worked really well the last 2 days (since I posted) is chalkboard work.  I remembered a few years ago, when we were learning phonograms, she seemed to learn so much faster on the chalkboard vs. learning with the cards.  Dry erase boards didn't work the same for her.   I'm not sure why I didn't think to do that with math this year.   So maybe the way I teach is more important the program I use.  But something like TT is very appealing.

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Ellie,  See I can't even get the numbers right on the front of the textbook.   ;) Thanks for your comparison between R&S & saxon.  It is so helpful.  The answer to your other question is yes.  But not every day.  Partly because she is not completing her work from the last scripted/lesson teaching time.  It's the page work that is so difficult for her.  The worksheets less so, the facts send her into fits.   And partly because of me, as we are preparing for our 6th move in 3 years, and building a house.  Which is no excuse (or becomes less of an excuse when you seem to be moving serially.  I was hoping for more independence by this stage, at least for 20 minutes or so during math so I could work with my older.  But your point is well made.  Maybe if I take away the independent portion of the day, it would increase her understanding and frustrate her less.  

 

One thing that has worked really well the last 2 days (since I posted) is chalkboard work.  I remembered a few years ago, when we were learning phonograms, she seemed to learn so much faster on the chalkboard vs. learning with the cards.  Dry erase boards didn't work the same for her.   I'm not sure why I didn't think to do that with math this year.   So maybe the way I teach is more important the program I use.  But something like TT is very appealing.

 

How is it that she doesn't complete the work from the last scripted teaching time? You do that orally. :confused1:  And it is *vital*, because there is no instruction in the student text; all of the teaching is in the oral classtime. The oral classtime does include some chalkboard/white board stuff.

 

I wouldn't require her to do the worksheets. As far as the drills (usually on the left-facing page), she only has to write the answers, not the whole problem, by folding her notebook paper on a line and holding on the page right below the problems. And she could do every other row instead of all of them. The other page she needs to write out, of course, but even those are often just the answers, not always a word problem to set up. She would do that independently, while you work with your other dc.

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So she's doing the oral class time, the work in the textbook, AND worksheets? Are we talking blacklines or the optional extra workbook? The blacklines are to be used at your discretion, and the extra workbook was intended for the kids that need more challenge. If you're using the latter I'd drop it like a hot potato. I would only select the blacklines I think she truly needs, and skip the rest. The oral classtime, the drills, and the student textbook are plenty for the average kid.

 

Chalkboards and whiteboards do have magical properties. If that makes math more palatable for a struggling student, absolutely do it.

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I wasn't clear enough.  The oral teaching time (before/after class) we did at her desk, with me, with a pencil & graph paper (not a whiteboard or chalkboard until 2 days ago) because of our current classroom situation. ( I literally pulled a small chalkboard out of a box in the garage to try this week.)  She would stall through that and seem to get some understanding while we did skip counting & flash cards, etc.  Clock time & money usually isn't an issue for her.  The actual lesson work came after (the lesson book, not the worksheets), or sometimes sandwiched in between, depending on her state of mind.  I always thought that was usually done on paper, with the problems written out. I nixed that by week 2 and let her work in the book.  So the time we are having trouble with is called the "assignment" in the Teachers Manual.  It just isn't getting done in any meaningful way.  Averaging 4-5 days for one assignment and very little retention.   So we will do the entire teaching time for one lesson and maybe get through the assignment over a period of days.  I don't give the oral teaching script every day, except for flash cards and skip counting, which I would do with any program.    Is this section supposed to be done orally as well?  

 

 

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How is she on the concepts behind the math? Is it only computation that hangs her up? Or have you only really focused on computation?

 

I would definitely take a break from math for a while. When you start again, using CLE might work better. Instructions are in the workbooks. Computational skills are worked on separately through 5th grade. Easy to implement. I find CLE easier and more pleasant to use than Saxon.

 

But seriously, you might step away from any math program for awhile. Reset. When you start again maybe dont even start a program right off the bat. Maybe just play some mathy games. Look for Soror's Relaxed Math thread. Your daughter and you both need a break.

 

I also would set a timer. I would not do math more than 30 minutes or maybe even 15 for a while. Focus on just a few problems. Quality vs. quantity. Let her know the lesson (what she sees as torture) will not continue forever.

 

And let her use a math reference chart for the computation for a while. Give her a chance to fucus on the concepts.

 

FWIW, neither my husband or I was ever able to memorize all of our math facts but I run the finances of the family business, had a successful career in Broadcast and my husband is a successful Engineer. Math facts are helpful to have memorized but not every brain can do so. If she can get the concepts and see the practical and conceptual side of math, it might help her find some joy in the subject.

 

Good luck OP.

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I wasn't clear enough.  The oral teaching time (before/after class) we did at her desk, with me, with a pencil & graph paper (not a whiteboard or chalkboard until 2 days ago) because of our current classroom situation. ( I literally pulled a small chalkboard out of a box in the garage to try this week.)  She would stall through that and seem to get some understanding while we did skip counting & flash cards, etc.  Clock time & money usually isn't an issue for her.  The actual lesson work came after (the lesson book, not the worksheets), or sometimes sandwiched in between, depending on her state of mind.  I always thought that was usually done on paper, with the problems written out. I nixed that by week 2 and let her work in the book.  So the time we are having trouble with is called the "assignment" in the Teachers Manual.  It just isn't getting done in any meaningful way.  Averaging 4-5 days for one assignment and very little retention.   So we will do the entire teaching time for one lesson and maybe get through the assignment over a period of days.  I don't give the oral teaching script every day, except for flash cards and skip counting, which I would do with any program.    Is this section supposed to be done orally as well?  

 

Yes, you should do the complete scripted oral class time every day, exactly as written (IOW, if skip counting is not part of the class time, don't do it). That's where the teaching is. It doesn't matter whether you use pencil and graph paper or a whiteboard; just do whichever works best for you and her. :-) The lesson just reviews and reinforces what you taught.

 

She doesn't have to write out all of the problems on the left-facing page, which is all drill. Writing just the answers is fine. There is quite a variety of problems on the right-facing page, and I could see where that might take longer, and that would be fine...but not more than two days.

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Your daughter and you both need a break.

 

I agree. Sometimes we just need to step away and get our breath, so to speak.

 

My daughter struggled profoundly with math in the beginning. We have tried Christian Liberty Press math, Math in Focus, Singapore, Saxon, and some dollar store books. She just wasn't getting it.

 

CLE saved math for us. Literally. She can now sit down calmly and work through her lesson accurately and without much help from me. She is going into 3rd grade this year.

 

I'm a little bit rabid about CLE, lol. But their LA and Math have just worked so well for us that I tell everyone about it. Like Ellie with Spalding and R&S, lol.

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Thanks for everyone taking the time to chime in!  I do think she gets some concepts, but then the panic sets in and it is very hard to tell if she is been stubborn or really not understanding.   

 

Ellie,  Do you use R & S exclusively, or switch over to Saxon at some point?  

 

I've ordered some CLE books from the last half of the 300 series.   Fewer books and less jumping around is appealing.  But I'm also very aware that sometimes just sticking to a program is better than jumping around.  I know that worked for my older son.

 

But that green book has gotten the better of me!  I'm as scared of it as she is. ;)  But this week has been better... so I figure I'll review those CLE books and work with what I have for the remainder of the year, just more slowly.

 

15-30 minutes of math sounds like a dream.  And timers seem to have the same magical properties as chalkboards!  

 

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Do you think she may have some form of dyscalculia?  Difficulty retaining math facts and having trouble processing problems without time constraints  make me wonder if there might be more going on.  https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/dyscalculia/understanding-dyscalculia

 

It is true that she is just 9, but it seems like you have repeatedly hit a wall in math and she excels in other academic areas. 

 

My DS had difficulty with math fact retention as well.  Honestly, what has helped him is the Schoolhouse Rock videos (can be found on youtube) that go through the facts for the different facts.  The songs stick in his head much better than drill. 

hth

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Thanks for everyone taking the time to chime in!  I do think she gets some concepts, but then the panic sets in and it is very hard to tell if she is been stubborn or really not understanding.   

 

Ellie,  Do you use R & S exclusively, or switch over to Saxon at some point?  

 

I've ordered some CLE books from the last half of the 300 series.   Fewer books and less jumping around is appealing.  But I'm also very aware that sometimes just sticking to a program is better than jumping around.  I know that worked for my older son.

 

But that green book has gotten the better of me!  I'm as scared of it as she is. ;)  But this week has been better... so I figure I'll review those CLE books and work with what I have for the remainder of the year, just more slowly.

 

15-30 minutes of math sounds like a dream.  And timers seem to have the same magical properties as chalkboards!  

 

We were all finished homeschooling by the time R&S had updated and re-written its math series, so we didn't get to use it at home, although I did use some in my little one-room school. If I were hsing again (or teaching, and I had the authority to make decisions), I would start with R&S and continue through at least fourth or fifth, then go to Saxon (wherever the dc tested). OTOH, R&S is working on algebra, so when that is released, then my answer would most likely be R&S through algebra.

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