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Anyone else watch Richard Rusczyk's WTM conference session tonight?


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What stuck with me most was his recommendation that math-y kids learn to code, and his insistence on the importance of free time for kids to explore their passions as they get older. I'd been thinking about teaching my eight-year-old to type this summer, and Richard's discussion about the importance of writing code (as opposed to clicking around on a graphical interface) sealed the deal for me. 

 

What stuck out for you from the talk? 

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The time didn't work for me either...DH wasn't home and fat chance that the kids would let me listen to a talk without tons of interruptions! :laugh:  I am looking forward to watching the recording as well.  I think I am going to end up listening to the recordings on most of the ones I signed up for.  Between activities, travel and just times that DH isn't home it will be tough to see any live.  There would have to be more at about 9 or 10pm CST for live talks to work for me!

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I was a slacker and put on the tv for the kids, but did have to leave at 9.

 

I thought the session went really well. One thing that I learned was that math competitions for the middle schoolers were like speed drills. We rather have our kids compete at the high school level where one takes 6 problems and one has hours to come up with an answer.

 

He also clarified to the best of his knowledge what EOM is.

 

I was already on board with my kids learning to program at the age of 11 or so.

 

I didn't know about mathematical writing. Good to know.

 

And I am a little happy that he said he watched a lot of tv when he was a kid. :) I don't want my kids watching a lot of tv, but it happens some days.

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I enjoyed listening to his talk. We use Beast Academy and I appeciate his point about success in problem solving does not mean 100% It should be around 70-80% (I think?). Which is about where my daughter is at with her first attempts at BA problems.

 

Other points of interest:

 

- Too much emphasis on arithmetic, algebra and calculus. Need more discrete math.

 

-Re-examine problems. This was a reoccurring theme in his talk. Real writing occurs when you're rewriting from an edit. Euler project doesn't just want a solution but a solution in under a minute (so you have to revisit you solution and make your program better). Solving the same problem two ways in the early examples he gave. So pausing and asking my kids, "what's another way you could solve this problem?" is a great way to build problem solving skills.

 

-Python programming- scripting not graphics- for middle school. I've been both annoyed and felt we missed the boat with the huge push for every kid to code. (Visions of the journalists literally tied into the great news satellite channel in Dr. Who clouded my vision.) It was reassuring to know we still have a few years to go. That said his comments reminded me that I took programming in college and thought it was logical and elegant. He was right that it does impact the way you think and problem solve.

 

-all the free resources on his site.

 

-children need free time for independent study to indulge their academic passions.

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Also enjoyed it, with a share of interruptions here as well.

 

I appreciated the emphasis on learning to code and a redirection to "written" code, not just graphical like Scratch. I also remember learning programming in middle school and up and I think I can see his point about how it impacts your thinking/problem-solving. 

 

I was thankful he took so much time to answer questions (including one of mine! Yay!)

 

 

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I was oblivious to this event happening - I will go look for a recording though. I've come a long way in the last two years on my own understanding of math and mathematical thinking and pedagogy, and using AOPS materials with my kids was part of what prompted that. And Rick is a great teacher!! Even asynchronously on web videos, but especially his books.

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I enjoyed it, although I missed the first few minutes--I didn't realize I should have downloaded the app earlier, I was out and about but had wi-fi and my iPad.  They usually have an archived version within a few days, I had to watch the first few that way and they all were archived within a few days.  (I watched Carol's late at night on my computer to minimize interruptions.)

 

Interestingly, I also tutored a lot of algebra before I became a phonics tutor--but I sought out the other end of students from him, I loved students who were dreading algebra and sought them out and tried to convince them to sign up for algebra before I moved!!  (Most of my students were enlisted Air Force going to night school, if they were bad at math they kept putting off algebra but for most it was a graduation requirement.  I also helped college co-op students when they hit a rough patch, but my math averse folks needed help on a more regular basis, although once I shored up their basics and explained algebra fundamentals in easy to understand English they needed less and less help.)

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I didn't know about mathematical writing. Good to know.

 

And I am a little happy that he said he watched a lot of tv when he was a kid. :) I don't want my kids watching a lot of tv, but it happens some days.

 

I appreciated what he said about mathematical writing, too. My son who's doing Beast is still at the age where he does almost everything in his head, and I've been wondering about whether I should start making him write down his steps. Based on what Richard said, I think I'm gong to wait a couple more years, but then emphasize it more once he gets to Beast level 5 in preparation for Pre-algebra. 

 

I felt the same way about his comment on TV. I watched a lot of tv when I was a kid, too! 

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Darn - I forgot to calendar this -- is there a way to get the archived recording?

 

Yes, I believe you need to register for the talk at  WTMonlineconference.com and then it should be available to watch as a recording in a few days. 

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I enjoyed listening to his talk. We use Beast Academy and I appeciate his point about success in problem solving does not mean 100% It should be around 70-80% (I think?). Which is about where my daughter is at with her first attempts at BA problems.

 

 

My son listened with me and I was so glad for him to hear this. He sometimes gets frustrated if he doesn't get everything right away, so I think I need to work on this more with him. I was totally one of those kids who flew through math classes with As until I hit college, and I was completely paralyzed when math didn't come so easily any more. 

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I enjoyed the talk. Interesting and thought-provoking. I came out with the same ideas as the OP, and was glad to see the direction we're heading in is great. I was already planning to have DS11 take computer programming with Khan Academy this summer. I'm also happy with our math path: Math Mammoth, Beast Academy guide books as interest reading, and Khan Academy as supplement.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I took three main points away:

 

- 70% is the goal. This hit home with me, being another who could get 100% until college. I liked his wording and how he called a math program "inefficient" if the child routinely gets more than 70-80%.

 

- Writing is important for math, don't neglect it. I don't think I neglect writing, but it is something on my radar.

 

- Free time is important for many reasons. I know this in my head, and I see the good results from people around us who do have free time. Sometimes, though, I end up thinking my kids need more scheduled "activities" like all of our neighbors. 

 

I knew about coding being important and am having my 10-year-old learn how to type right now so that he can pursue that in the future. RR suggested age 11 or so to begin programming, so I don't need to rush him! It was also good to know that doing graphical "programming" earlier is likely of little value.

 

Emily

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- Free time is important for many reasons. I know this in my head, and I see the good results from people around us who do have free time. Sometimes, though, I end up thinking my kids need more scheduled "activities" like all of our neighbors. 

 

I find this so hard to resist, too. I'm thankful that homeschooling automatically bakes a bit more free time into our days than our traditional-schooling friends have, but it's hard for me to remember that more activities do not necessarily make childhood any richer. 

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Yep, coding. Gah.  I'm not interested and neither are my kids. But it's feeling like it's becoming an obligatory part of 21st century education.

 

Be Less Helpful.  Ask questions, don't give answers.  I need to work on this with my dd8.  My dd12 is working mostly independently these days - she has a whole list of resources that she uses as a first pass when she gets stuck. (AoPS Videos, Khan videos, School Yourself lessons, another text to read, etc.).  When she comes to me for help, most of the time as soon as she starts talking me through the problem she sees her mistake.  So maybe that's good, or maybe it's that her math isn't hard enough?  I don't know.

 

And yes - the tyranny of the 100%.  It is soooo hard for me to get past this myself, I know I haven't done a good job of freeing my kids from it.  Wow, 70%, really? My kids' math is still too easy.  I am having a really hard time implementing/accepting 70% as good.  I'm not sure what to do about it, other than keep lecturing myself?

 

Free time! yes.

 

A community of academic/intellectual peers.  My kids definitely don't have this, and it makes me sad.  They have peers re: their extracurricular interests, but no academic peers.  I don't know what to do about this either.

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DD watched it with me just because she loves Richard, and I think it was perhaps even more powerful for her to hear many of the things that I try to emphasize. It was a great launching point for some excellent discussions with us about the importance of not getting everything right but pushing through it, challenging problems, mom not being helpful, why I think free time is important for her, etc.

 

She's also the type of kid who is good at math but she doesn't particularly like it. She visibly shuddered when he mentioned going to math camp for 4-5 weeks. She looked at me and said that she'd run away. She is also horrified by competitive math programs, and I actually participated in them when I was in high school.

 

 

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I also enjoyed it and took away the same points as above. Many were points that I was already aware of, but still good reminders, and there were additional things to think about. I was already thinking to have my kids watch the recording, because they don't seem to believe me when I tell them some of the things he covered, so glad to hear others have done or are doing that. Not only did he explain them well, he's not their parent, so hopefully it will be more effective to hear it from him.

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Also, glad to hear that he also sees first hand the conflict between choosing to take extra, desired classes/learning opportunities vs. what can go on the transcript/college application. 

 

And, it was interesting to hear him talk about students coming to AOPs from other programs. 

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I took three main points away:

 

- 70% is the goal. This hit home with me, being another who could get 100% until college. I liked his wording and how he called a math program "inefficient" if the child routinely gets more than 70-80%.

 

- Writing is important for math, don't neglect it. I don't think I neglect writing, but it is something on my radar.

 

- Free time is important for many reasons. I know this in my head, and I see the good results from people around us who do have free time. Sometimes, though, I end up thinking my kids need more scheduled "activities" like all of our neighbors. 

 

I knew about coding being important and am having my 10-year-old learn how to type right now so that he can pursue that in the future. RR suggested age 11 or so to begin programming, so I don't need to rush him! It was also good to know that doing graphical "programming" earlier is likely of little value.

 

Emily

 

I am sorry I missed this discussion.

 

" 70% is the goal. This hit home with me, being another who could get 100% until college. I liked his wording and how he called a math program "inefficient" if the child routinely gets more than 70-80%."

 

Does this mean that a student who is getting 70%-80% on course work/tests is working at the right level?

 

 

 

A collection of online coding sources. 

 

https://www.pinterest.com/womanofsalt/tech-coding-programming-computers-homeschool/

 

http://www.ck12.org/search/?q=computer%20prgramming&source=ck12&grade=7

 

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow/story/293079/10-excellent-free-online-education-resources/9

 

http://www.w3schools.com/

 

http://www.codecademy.com/learn

 

http://csunplugged.org/

 

http://nifty.stanford.edu/

 

https://developers.google.com/edu/python/?csw=1

 

http://fivejs.com/homeschool-computer-programming-curriculum/

 

http://notes.kateva.org/2013/04/learning-programming-for-middle-school.html

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He mentioned a few different resources, but I need to go back and listen again. I missed the beginning and end. The beginning, I'm so embarrassed about this, but I completely reversed the time change and was thinking 10:30pst instead of 4:30. 

 

Ds has no interest in coding, because I don't really think he gets what it's about. We have the opportunity to sign him up for a camp, and he wants to do a minecraft camp, but I'm going to push him into the python camp. 

 

The 100% thing. I really do wish we had approached math a little more aggressively in this way. I have strong math kids, but neither one of them is comfortable with struggling. 

 

The math circles/camps info was interesting, but I don't think either of my kids is going that deep into math. He said, and I agree, that that level of intensity needs to be driven by the kids, not the parents.

 

I thought it was interesting that he said if video games were as [amazing, or something like that] when he was a kid as they are now, he probably would still be living in his parent's basement. He seemed to understand the struggle for balance and the need for limits. I'm not sure if he has kids, because he didn't speak from any personal parenting choices, but he definitely had sympathy for parents. 

 

Which, going back to that 70% thing, he mentioned that video games employ the same approach- the balance between success and struggle in order to propel a player forward.

 

Overall, I thought it was very worthwhile.

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I am sorry I missed this discussion.

 

" 70% is the goal. This hit home with me, being another who could get 100% until college. I liked his wording and how he called a math program "inefficient" if the child routinely gets more than 70-80%."

 

Does this mean that a student who is getting 70%-80% on course work/tests is working at the right level?

 

 

Well...sort of. Basically, if a kid is flying through a program with 100% success, he believes they're not being challenged enough.

 

He added the caveat, though, that there are some areas (like the multiplication facts) where kids should be aiming for 100% accuracy. So, I don't believe he'd apply the 70% formula to a page of plain computation, like converting improper fractions to mixed numbers. I believe he's referring more to a problem-solving curriculum like AOPS or Beast. 

 

What did other people think about this? If a child is at a 70% accuracy level on a page of straight-up computation, does that mean he's working at the right level? That doesn't sit right with me, but I don't think that's quite what he meant. 

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Well...sort of. Basically, if a kid is flying through a program with 100% success, he believes they're not being challenged enough.

 

He added the caveat, though, that there are some areas (like the multiplication facts) where kids should be aiming for 100% accuracy. So, I don't believe he'd apply the 70% formula to a page of plain computation, like converting improper fractions to mixed numbers. I believe he's referring more to a problem-solving curriculum like AOPS or Beast. 

 

What did other people think about this? If a child is at a 70% accuracy level on a page of straight-up computation, does that mean he's working at the right level? That doesn't sit right with me, but I don't think that's quite what he meant. 

 

I took his comments to mean that kids should get to the point where they are at 100% with straight computation - he mentioned multiplication facts and working with fractions several times. I agree, I think the 70% was for word problems, AoPs/Beast type stuff.  Tests, too, though? That's where I always struggle with this. I'm ok with them struggling/missing hard problems - I think Shannon is at around 80% on Alcumus, working behind her current class level - but I feel like the test is where I assess mastery and decide if we are ready to move on, or need more work on the concept. I don't know how to square that with shooting for 70%.  

 

In fact, this is my whole struggle with the mastery vs. problem-solving thing.  I really think we're talking about two separate animals.  Mastery implies that they, well, master things before you move on.  You don't want a kid moving into Algebra who only has mastered 70% of fractions, right?  So if you are teaching to mastery, trying to create a solid foundation for high math, how do you accept 70%?

 

OTOH, for problem solving - - sure.  A kid who is whizzing through all their work getting 100% is clearly not being challenged, and will hit a wall at some point.  You want to ramp up the difficulty of their problem-solving work so that they are learning to struggle, and learning to accept less than perfection.

 

Now, how you put that together in creating, writing, scoring tests? Or working with pre-made tests?  Got me.

 

ETA:  with alcumus, it's built-in.  Mastery is assessed separately from percent correct.  You don't turn the bars blue until you have mastered a topic - but you may only answer 70% of your problems correctly in the struggle to get there.  That's awesome.  But I don't know how to translate this algorithm to paper and pencil/textbook stuff.

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I didn't listen to the talk. I had listened to a similar one he gave for the math prize for girls. Link is to transcript

http://mathprize.atfoundation.org/archive/2009/Rusczyk_Problem_Solving_Presentation_at_Math_Prize_for_Girls_2009.pdf

 

Video link http://mathprize.atfoundation.org/archive/2009/rusczyk

 

The 70% corresponds to an A grade for Cambridge 'O' and 'A' levels exams. Could be just a coincidence though.

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I always ran separate math & problem solving threads in different school slots in the early years. When needed, I added basic math facts fluency as a third strand.

 

My expectations were continued improvement in memorizing facts, mastery in the basic math program (close to 100%), and an "optimal struggle" (what RR is saying should be about 70%) in problem solving.

 

For example, in the late elementary grades, my daughter (the one who currently works for RR :) ) would have done a daily Calculadder drill, a lesson from Singapore Math (including CWP), and another session on MathCounts or AMC 8 type problems (or a variety of other stuff).  The latter evolved into AoPS materials as she grew older, mostly their online classes because their textbooks didn't come out in time for my kids.

 

Doing super well on basic math can give kids the courage to try the harder stuff without feeling like they're failures for missing the 100% mark.

 

By late middle school, we abandoned regular math programs altogether (after completing both Jacobs texts and Singapore NEM 1 and 2)  and just went with AoPS and college texts. By that point the tyranny of the 100% was no longer a factor.

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Well...sort of. Basically, if a kid is flying through a program with 100% success, he believes they're not being challenged enough.

 

He added the caveat, though, that there are some areas (like the multiplication facts) where kids should be aiming for 100% accuracy. So, I don't believe he'd apply the 70% formula to a page of plain computation, like converting improper fractions to mixed numbers. I believe he's referring more to a problem-solving curriculum like AOPS or Beast. 

 

What did other people think about this? If a child is at a 70% accuracy level on a page of straight-up computation, does that mean he's working at the right level? That doesn't sit right with me, but I don't think that's quite what he meant. 

 

He made a distinction between mathematics/computation and problem solving at one point, and I believe that the 70% just refers to the problem solving. For example, if a child got 70% correct on a section of exercises in the prealgebra book (which is all problem solving, no computation in sight, lol), then they are doing well. If they got 100% correct, they are being underchallenged. And after having taken my oldest through the prealgebra book, I would have to agree with his assessment. If my daughter managed to correctly solve 70% of an exercise set (including a second attempt at previously missed problems), I took it to mean she had mastered the concepts.   

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I watched most of it; I was interrupted by my kids and by a phone call at one point, and at 8:20 I decided it was high time we all ate dinner and I left the webinar, so I am going to go back and re-watch it when it is available (it was announced that it should be available in five days). I am also going to have my oldest watch it with me.

 

Things I took away from it:

- He is *way* more relaxed about his books than most of us are, lol. He thinks it is fine if the student watches the videos or goes through the explanations of the concepts in the book without doing the problems first in order to learn by the discovery method. He said to occasionally let the student try to learn through discovery to see if it no longer frustrates them; but if we don't use the books that way, it is truly okay. He didn't think it was a big deal, lol.

- He mentioned that the prealgebra book is more advanced than regular prealgebra books and covers a lot of what is is a traditional algebra program. That means my instincts were right; Jacobs will be too easy for my daughter and I need to use either the AoPS Intro to Algebra or another honors level algebra book with her.

- He mentioned that they were piloting a 22 week Intro to Algebra part A this fall to see if there is a need for longer courses. I suspect the class will fill up very quickly.

- The importance of writing in math...I had my daughter give verbal answers to the questions in the prealgebra book that asked for explanations, but I think that in the next book (and if I take my son through the books) I will require a written explanation. Also, if he ever actually does write a book about writing in math, I will be the first to buy it.

- I told my husband what RR said about video games, and it made him feel a lot better. My husband has wondered for years if we are hindering our kids by not having video games in the house, and it was very reassuring to him to learn that RR didn't think they were profitable and there were better uses of time (such as free time to explore and create, learning to code, etc.). I had been saying it for years, but what do I know. :tongue_smilie:

 

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I watched it with both dds.  We enjoyed it very much.  RR is one of their idols, and they are lucky enough to sometimes have him come teach at their math circle.  I, too, was interested to hear his endorsement of coding, as well as his recommendations.  He didn't seem enthused about scratch or alice for the younger crowd -- he was more enthusiastic about actual coding, which resonated with me.  We were also excited to hear that AoPS may be starting a summer, non-residential math "camp" next year in SD. :hurray:

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I always ran separate math & problem solving threads in different school slots in the early years. When needed, I added basic math facts fluency as a third strand.

 

My expectations were continued improvement in memorizing facts, mastery in the basic math program (close to 100%), and an "optimal struggle" (what RR is saying should be about 70%) in problem solving.

 

For example, in the late elementary grades, my daughter (the one who currently works for RR :) ) would have done a daily Calculadder drill, a lesson from Singapore Math (including CWP), and another session on MathCounts or AMC 8 type problems (or a variety of other stuff). The latter evolved into AoPS materials as she grew older, mostly their online classes because their textbooks didn't come out in time for my kids.

 

Doing super well on basic math can give kids the courage to try the harder stuff without feeling like they're failures for missing the 100% mark.

 

By late middle school, we abandoned regular math programs altogether (after completing both Jacobs texts and Singapore NEM 1 and 2) and just went with AoPS and college texts. By that point the tyranny of the 100% was no longer a factor.

I needed to read this. Thank you.

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I listened. You gals have already covered everything that resonated with me. Coding, 70%, etc. Kathy, thank you for explaining your math "threads" method. THAT really resonates with me as well, as I have two children who enjoy math (or so they say!) but are perfectionists and easily frustrated, and one of those has a memory more like his mom (poor kid) so math facts tend to take longer to "stick" than his sister. If I have separate slots for these different areas, perhaps it can help to dissolve some frustrations around his nemesis -"fact families".

 

I thought about calling DD out to listen a few times, so I may re-listen alongside her when the recording becomes available.

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Did he recmmend any particular coding resource? My son has done a little but finding the time is tough!

 

I quickly jotted down his recommendations when I watched this.

 

For beginner level he mentioned

  • AoPS coding (they have some coding classes on the website?)
  • Kahn Academy coding classes
  • Code Academy

More advanced

  • Project Euler (he particularly liked the time aspect of this - not only do you need to write a program that does something, but it also needs to run in under a minute, for example)

Top level

  • Top Coder
  • USA Coding Olympiad
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AoPS coding (they have some coding classes on the website?)

...

USA Coding Olympiad

They have Python class. Scroll to near bottom of link

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/school/schedule

Intro to programming with Python course link

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/python1

Intermediate Programming with Python Course link

http://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/python2

 

USA Computing Olympiad

http://usaco.org/index.php

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I can't find it in the thread, but I might be overlooking...is there a way to get access to this talk if you didn't pre-register for the session?

 

I checked with the Peace Hill IT Director. They're working on how to make it available for those who didn't register, but it's not possible yet. I'll add it to this thread if I hear an update. 

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I registered but missed it, and don't see the talk yet. Is it not up yet, or is there just something up with my account?

There appears to be a problem with the accounts. I had registered, too, but did not receive any reminder emails beforehand.

 

I had put this in my calendar, so I logged on at the start time to view the talk. There was no link to view the talk.

 

I sent two emails via the Contact Us page on the WTMConf web site, but have not heard back.

I hope I will see the archived link in my MyAccount page by next week.

 

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I checked with the Peace Hill IT Director. They're working on how to make it available for those who didn't register, but it's not possible yet. I'll add it to this thread if I hear an update. 

 

Thank you for this update.  :001_smile: I sent an email and was waiting on a reply.

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In all my university courses 70 to 80% put me in the top 15% and no-one would have got 100%. In long questions for calculations and short essay questions it is very hard to not make one mistake under time pressure. I think 100% is a more US thing. The exception being basic facts and spelling tests in primary.

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I took three main points away:

 

 

- Writing is important for math, don't neglect it. I don't think I neglect writing, but it is something on my radar.

 

 

Emily

 

Does he mean proof writing or composition (English class) writing.

 

Either way it is important to be able to explain yourself and write in any field.

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