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Halcyon
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IIRC:

 

1. The dad threatening a neighbor who this family was stealing water from. At one point told a child to get a gun.

2. One or more CPS calls made by neighbors about the state of the property and that the kids were dirty and not enrolled in school.

3. The Naughler's absolute refusal to cooperate with a basic CPS check of their "home" or a welfare check of their kids.

4. The CPS workers sized up the living situation when they weren't "home" and got an order for an emergency removal.

5. The sheriff followed up on the removal order, mom and dad are both recorded saying insane things and I think the mom assaulted an officer.

Ah, thank you!

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I met some agenda 21 conspiracy people before. A plan for sustainability that is similar in lots of places is this big conspiracy to turn everyone into a bunch of godless, gay, liberal Muslims and tell them how to live. I guess the plan now includes kidnapping children of parents who are not cogs in the machine now. I am sure the book by the Glen Beck follower is totes reasonable and it will happen just like that.

 

It has nothing to do with the fact we live on a planet with limited resources and if we make good use of those resources they are there for people in all countries and future generations. It has nothing at all to do with dwindling resources and real environmental concerns. This plan has nothing to do with coming up with a plan for sustainability for the future. Nope it is just a plot to take over the world and control people.

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I think it's possible (even likely) that they haven't been told everything that needs to be done because CPS hasn't completed their investigation yet. If the kids are playing POW, and following their parents' orders not to say anything about the way they live, then it could take a while to get the information they need. They're probably interviewing various neighbors, former bosses, members of their former church, and anyone else who might have information about the kids, about the parents' mental health, and any possible abuse. They're probably asking for records pertaining to the termination of Joe's parental rights in Alex's case, too.

 

 

ok - so let's play devil's advocate for just a minute here. The kids have been taken away and there are things that have to change before they can get them back. We know the Nauglers aren't really doing anything so this "what if" doesn't apply to them but let's say these were parents who wanted their kids back and were busting their butts ever second of the day to meet all the CPS requirements. Are you saying they have to guess what CPS wants? Is it possible that a family could do what will ultimately be everything CPS wants by a hearing date but CPS won't sign off just because they haven't finished their investigation? Does CPS have a timetable? Do they have to show progress in the investigation at the hearing or can they just say they aren't done with the investigation and get another court date in another 6 weeks? 

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ok - so let's play devil's advocate for just a minute here. The kids have been taken away and there are things that have to change before they can get them back. We know the Nauglers aren't really doing anything so this "what if" doesn't apply to them but let's say these were parents who wanted their kids back and were busting their butts ever second of the day to meet all the CPS requirements. Are you saying they have to guess what CPS wants? Is it possible that a family could do what will ultimately be everything CPS wants by a hearing date but CPS won't sign off just because they haven't finished their investigation? Does CPS have a timetable? Do they have to show progress in the investigation at the hearing or can they just say they aren't done with the investigation and get another court date in another 6 weeks?

CPS can't make a plan for reunifcation if the investigation is being stalled by the Naughlers. Nor has anything come out indicating that reunification would be possible.

 

4 walls with an attached roof and seperate beds for each kid and basic utilities are almost certainly minimum requirements, making the rest rather moot.

 

Still, I've never known a family who sat on their butts after CPS visited, much less after the kids were taken, unless the parents were abusive or addicts.

 

CPS has to show cause and unfortunately, they aren't short of any evidence for a myriad of causes. There's no way they can release 10 kids to that home.

 

Their best chance of getting the kids back is to rent a 3-4 bedroom house or apartment large enough for 5 bunk beds and maintain steady income but that would be "being a rat in a cage".

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Oh definitely - I don't want to imply in any way that I think the kids will or should go back to the Nauglers. I'm just wondering in a more "normal" situation how it would work since Corraleno said they probably don't have a list of things to do because they haven't finished their investigation.

 

So are you saying typically the investigation would be complete in this time and the family would know exactly what has to happen but the Nauglers probably don't because they are stalling the investigation or failing to comply? I guess I'm just imagining what I would do. I would want a list, no matter how long or how stupid I thought it was, so that I could go through even single thing to get it done and show up at that hearing in full compliance to get my kids back. Clearly the Nauglers aren't doing that but I would think most people would want to.

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In my experience, from the foster parent end, CPS outlines a specific plan for reunification. There's no guessing about what they want.

 

Yes, they have to show progress in their investigation at the hearing, and no, they can't just delay indefinitely.

 

ETA: yes, I think typically the initial investigation would be complete in this amount of time.

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Their best chance of getting the kids back is to rent a 3-4 bedroom house or apartment large enough for 5 bunk beds and maintain steady income but that would be "being a rat in a cage".

No one would rent to them. Even without the publicity and back history, landlords just don't like to rent to such large families.

 

They would need to take the GFM money and purchase something like a trailer home.

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Somewhere in the most recent comments, Nicole said they couldn't share what else they needed to do to get the kids back. I didn't have the impression they don't know what they need to do but rather that they are not allowed to share it publicly. (Either that or she's using it as an excuse because she doesn't want her supporters to know the extent of the problems that will need to be resolved lest they stop believing the CPS and judge are so unreasonable and evil.)

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No one would rent to them. Even without the publicity and back history, landlords just don't like to rent to such large families.

 

They would need to take the GFM money and purchase something like a trailer home.

In rural areas where it's hard to find renters, if they didn't have such a lengthly eviction history, they could probably find someone to rent to them. But yeah, a trailer would make more sense.

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Somewhere in the most recent comments, Nicole said they couldn't share what else they needed to do to get the kids back. I didn't have the impression they don't know what they need to do but rather that they are not allowed to share it publicly. (Either that or she's using it as an excuse because she doesn't want her supporters to know the extent of the problems that will need to be resolved lest they stop believing the CPS and judge are so unreasonable and evil.)

My bet is on your parenthetical being spot on. I don't think she wants to admit the full extent of the problem. She wants to maintain that it's just persecution for their "off the grid" lifestyle and homeschooling or some money making scheme of the government. The filth, the educational neglect, the history of past child abuse, the almost unmistakable drug use, the mental health issues are all non existent to her. She is unhinged.

 

A mental health and chemical dependency evaluation for each parent are almost certainly necessary for them to complete their investigation and I can't see them complying with that either.

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ok - so let's play devil's advocate for just a minute here. The kids have been taken away and there are things that have to change before they can get them back. We know the Nauglers aren't really doing anything so this "what if" doesn't apply to them but let's say these were parents who wanted their kids back and were busting their butts ever second of the day to meet all the CPS requirements. Are you saying they have to guess what CPS wants? Is it possible that a family could do what will ultimately be everything CPS wants by a hearing date but CPS won't sign off just because they haven't finished their investigation? Does CPS have a timetable? Do they have to show progress in the investigation at the hearing or can they just say they aren't done with the investigation and get another court date in another 6 weeks? 

 

I think if the only issues involved the living conditions at the property, the Nauglers would already have a list of what they need to do (and that list would include far more than just fencing the pond). But, given Alex's testimony and reports of Joe's violent behavior, it seems likely that there's more going on. If CPS is still investigating whether the kids have been physically and/or sexually abused, with no cooperation from the parents and possibly little to no cooperation from the kids, then they can't really give Joe & Nicole a list of things to fix right now.

 

If it turns out that Joe has been beating Nicole and/or the kids, or abusing them in even worse ways, then CPS may require extensive counseling for both parents, as well as the kids, before they even consider reunification. If Nicole knows, or suspects, that Joe would never agree to that (or to the continued supervision that will almost certainly be required), then there's no point in fixing up the "homestead," because the kids still wouldn't be returned even if they spent the whole $45K on a 4 BR double-wide with all mod cons. If that's the case, then it would make sense (in their minds) to hold onto as much of the money as possible, so they can leave Kentucky before baby #11 is born.

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Somewhere in the most recent comments, Nicole said they couldn't share what else they needed to do to get the kids back. I didn't have the impression they don't know what they need to do but rather that they are not allowed to share it publicly. (Either that or she's using it as an excuse because she doesn't want her supporters to know the extent of the problems that will need to be resolved lest they stop believing the CPS and judge are so unreasonable and evil.)

 

 

B.

 

I'm sure that list is pretty darn long too.

 

this is the woman who posted about being with all of the kids the first weekend after they were taken, but wasn't allowed to take pictures of them.  but she did proceed to be all over facebook - posting pictures of "nature".  she seems disconnected with reality.

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Mod cons?

 

Modifications?

 

Just trying to learn the phrase. :)

Modern conveniences :)

knowing what I do about CPS (as far as my brother and his 3 children) this could drag out for years. My brother has complete custody of his 3 but it's going on 2.5 years of court to terminate the mother's rights, she no longer pays child support but still has supervised visits (which is really hard on the kids, they act like spawns of Satan after a visit (personal experience with that one). My nieces and nephew all have issues that need to be addressed but due to not having the services available where they live and court battles, they are not able to get them.

When she first lost custody (after many attempts of help being offered by CPS but rejected or no follow up on her part), there was a lot of things CPS had outlined for her to do such as clean home, some sort of employment, parenting classes, mental health services and other stuff.

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Ok - that makes more sense. Coraleno's comment about not having a full list threw me a bit. List or no list they obviously aren't do anything but I was curious. 

 

In addition to the reason already stated, I think it's dangerous from a PR perspective for Nicole to talk about what needs to be done. They don't intend to comply, especially with things like the drug test and the mental health services. If those issues are on a known list and their supporters realize they haven't even done that, they might start doubting them. I don't know if they are still getting money from people but it would certainly affect their ability to fundraise. 

 

I agree with Corraleno that it appears they are keeping the  money to fund flight when the baby is born. I'm actually a bit surprised they are waiting. 

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He said all the people in the company (five or six people) are in their twenties and early thirties. It sounds like they may be a group of idealists who wanted to make a difference, but didn't have enough real-world experience between them to do it wisely.

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Ok - that makes more sense. Coraleno's comment about not having a full list threw me a bit. List or no list they obviously aren't do anything but I was curious.

 

In addition to the reason already stated, I think it's dangerous from a PR perspective for Nicole to talk about what needs to be done. They don't intend to comply, especially with things like the drug test and the mental health services. If those issues are on a known list and their supporters realize they haven't even done that, they might start doubting them. I don't know if they are still getting money from people but it would certainly affect their ability to fundraise.

 

I agree with Corraleno that it appears they are keeping the money to fund flight when the baby is born. I'm actually a bit surprised they are waiting.

I think their supporters are so far gone they wouldn't be alarmed. Having to do counseling or be visited by CPS or submit to a chemical dependency eval would all be proof that they are being persecuted/that there's a government plot.

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He said all the people in the company (five or six people) are in their twenties and early thirties. It sounds like they may be a group of idealists who wanted to make a difference, but didn't have enough real-world experience between them to do it wisely.

 

He strikes me as a nice kid (I think someone said he's only 20??) who is very very naive and who has swallowed the Nauglers' lies hook, line, and sinker. I think he's going to be very embarrassed when all this is over.

 

 

I think their supporters are so far gone they wouldn't be alarmed. Having to do counseling or be visited by CPS or submit to a chemical dependency eval would all be proof that they are being persecuted/that there's a government plot.

 

That's exactly what happened in the Stanley case, which was far less crazy than this one. The whole family had to undergo counseling, plus the father had to do an anger management program, and there was so much outrage on their page about government persecution of these fine, upstanding, Christian parents, who have every right to beat their kids and make them drink bleach. At least the Stanleys get credit for doing what they had to do to get the kids back, even though they continued to insist it was a violation of their constitutional and God-given rights.

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He strikes me as a nice kid (I think someone said he's only 20??) who is very very naive and who has swallowed the Nauglers' lies hook, line, and sinker. I think he's going to be very embarrassed when all this is over.

 

 

 

That's exactly what happened in the Stanley case, which was far less crazy than this one. The whole family had to undergo counseling, plus the father had to do an anger management program, and there was so much outrage on their page about government persecution of these fine, upstanding, Christian parents, who have every right to beat their kids and make them drink bleach. At least the Stanleys get credit for doing what they had to do to get the kids back, even though they continued to insist it was a violation of their constitutional and God-given rights.

 

Maybe I misunderstood how that "company" with the Bitcoin thing worked but didn't at least some of that "loan" for the grooming place come from Pace? How does such a young kid get money to loan to someone for a business?

 

 

I think that is a big difference between the Stanleys and the Nauglers. The Stanleys did horrible things and may or may not have ever acknowledged that it is an unacceptable thing to give your kids to bleach or beat your children. But they did what was necessary to get their kids back. They don't have to agree with it. And if you are asked to do something you really believe is wrong then by all means... sue the @#$*% out of CPS. But meanwhile you do what they ask and get your kids back. 

 

The Naugler's are not showing any signs of being willing to "suck it up" and just do what they need to do to get the kids back. 

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4 walls with an attached roof and seperate beds for each kid and basic utilities are almost certainly minimum requirements, making the rest rather moot.

 

 

I don't understand the "separate beds for each kid" thing. I keep seeing it everywhere. If they are siblings. can't it be two (same sex) to a bed? I'm just wondering...

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I don't understand the "separate beds for each kid" thing. I keep seeing it everywhere. If they are siblings. can't it be two (same sex) to a bed? I'm just wondering...

 

I wonder about that too. I suspect that with this many kids if there were some who shared a decent sized bed, i.e. two kids in a double or queen bed, they would allow it. They want them to have a safe sleeping environment. But 10 kids on a cement platform isn't ok. What's sad is that they had beds for all the kids donated to them. They sold them.

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I don't understand the "separate beds for each kid" thing. I keep seeing it everywhere. If they are siblings. can't it be two (same sex) to a bed? I'm just wondering...

 

Those are the basic requirements for foster parents in our state.  Separate beds and a certain amount of square footage per child.  Siblings of same gender can share a room.  That's probably the root of it.

 

I'm not sure what the requirements would be for birthparents, but I'm pretty sure cramming 12 people on a queen size bed won't fly, so they'll have to make some new arrangements.  It could be that they need to show that there are adequate sleeping areas for each child - maybe two similar aged, same gender siblings on a full bed would be okay, but even then - they'll clearly need more beds.  

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I wonder about that too. I suspect that with this many kids if there were some who shared a decent sized bed, i.e. two kids in a double or queen bed, they would allow it. They want them to have a safe sleeping environment. But 10 kids on a cement platform isn't ok. What's sad is that they had beds for all the kids donated to them. They sold them.

 

How did I manage to miss that they *had* beds for all the kids, and sold them??  Oh my.  :(

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Maybe I misunderstood how that "company" with the Bitcoin thing worked but didn't at least some of that "loan" for the grooming place come from Pace? How does such a young kid get money to loan to someone for a business?

 

I haven't read anything about how much, if any, of his own money may be on the line, but I assume he did contribute something, since he seems to be the one who approached his partners with the project. I think there are 6-7 "partners" in Capistan, and there were 21 or 22 total "investors" (not sure if that includes the partners or is in addition to them) who contributed with the expectation of a certain return on their investment. Supposedly Capistan is taking a % of the interest off the top, then the rest of the interest, along with the capital, would be returned to the investors as Nicole paid off the loan. I really doubt that's going to happen that way, or that "Capistan" will survive to fund a second project. 

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I haven't read anything about how much, if any, of his own money may be on the line, but I assume he did contribute something, since he seems to be the one who approached his partners with the project. I think there are 6-7 "partners" in Capistan, and there were 21 or 22 total "investors" (not sure if that includes the partners or is in addition to them) who contributed with the expectation of a certain return on their investment. Supposedly Capistan is taking a % of the interest off the top, then the rest of the interest, along with the capital, would be returned to the investors as Nicole paid off the loan. I really doubt that's going to happen that way, or that "Capistan" will survive to fund a second project. 

 

I'd be stunned if Nicole made even one payment on the loan let alone paid it off and the investors made anything. 

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So they have 45K+ to help with the improvements. One major thing is the beds. I just did a quick look at Ikea figuring that would be a pretty cheap place to get bunk beds. I priced out 3 sets of bunk beds and one trundle bed for the 7 boys, 1 set of bunk beds for the girls and two cribs - one for the current baby and one for the new baby. Beds and mattresses together ran around $1780 plus tax. Seems affordable when you have 45K of other people's money.

 

Of course it would be helpful to have somewhere to put them that doesn't get rained on.

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So they have 45K+ to help with the improvements. One major thing is the beds. I just did a quick look at Ikea figuring that would be a pretty cheap place to get bunk beds. I priced out 3 sets of bunk beds and one trundle bed for the 7 boys, 1 set of bunk beds for the girls and two cribs - one for the current baby and one for the new baby. Beds and mattresses together ran around $1780 plus tax. Seems affordable when you have 45K of other people's money.

 

Of course it would be helpful to have somewhere to put them that doesn't get rained on.

 

You should post this on their page so they know how much you support them in their endeavors of doing whatever necessary to get their children back. Someone has already priced out a trailer for them for less than 40K, so that should take care of it. 

 

I'm sure they will be very appreciative of all the budgeting help they're getting.  :001_rolleyes:

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Yeh, I'm thinking they maybe didn't keep the other beds because... where would they have put them?  

 

I think they were given the beds when they were living in the farmhouse — when the LDS ward was paying their rent, buying their food, gave them clothes for the kids, donated the van, etc. After they burned all their bridges there and were evicted, they moved to a 4 BR mobile home, but for reasons known only to Nicole, she locked 3 of the bedrooms and claims that the children all preferred to sleep in a big pile on the living room floor. So even though they had a large house with actual bedrooms, and had at least owned beds in the previous home, the kids were not sleeping in beds at that point. 

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Ok, I was wondering if it had something to do with foster care regs, but figured it would be different for siblings. For sure they would need more than the platform for 9 kids (the baby slept with the parents).

Once CPS is involved, they may require seperate beds for the kids. I've known biologically related families who, as part of a CPS reunification plan, had to show they had new, separate beds and bedding for the kids. One of the places I used to manage bought or funneled donations for more than a few beds for clients under such strictures.

 

I shared a bed with my siblings at different times, so I am not opposed to it but I do think it is becoming less common and that having your own bed is increasingly a first world minimum standard. I don't necessarily agree with that but then again double beds for 2 kids aren't some philosophy I'd fight for either. Most parents, even the crazy ones, would be finding a solid home like structure and building the bunk beds now. The Nauglers clearly aren't most parents.

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Once CPS is involved, they may require seperate beds for the kids. I've known biologically related families who, as part of a CPS reunification plan, had to show they had new, separate beds and bedding for the kids. One of the places I used to manage bought or funneled donations for more than a few beds for clients under such strictures.

 

I shared a bed with my siblings at different times, so I am not opposed to it but I do think it is becoming less common and that having your own bed is increasingly a first world minimum standard. I don't necessarily agree with that but then again double beds for 2 kids aren't some philosophy I'd fight for either. Most parents, even the crazy ones, would be finding a solid home like structure and building the bunk beds now. The Nauglers clearly aren't most parents.

 

It's probably one of those things where CPS wouldn't take children away from their parents for having two kids (same gender) sleeping in a double bed but once they are involved they have other requirements.  I don't know if I agree with it either but I can understand it. 

 

On the Naugler Report board Pace is reporting that Nicole and Joe have been working like crazy making improvements and posted pictures of them. Guess I missed those because the only pictures I saw were from the one day of minor cleanup. I would think we would at least see pictures of a place with 4 walls... after all they claim they can add the 4th wall at any time. Why not do it? (where is the sarcasm font??)

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My, aren't we getting fancy here with our modern conveniences.

 

Like sanitation habits informed by the discovery of germs.

 

What has the world come to? What will we think of next?

 

Separate areas for living/playing/eating and feces.

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The Blessed Homestead page has a picture of a fence around the pond. It's a good thing but it seems like such a small thing compared to 4 walls, place to sleep, running water, and a toilet. Talk about majoring in the minors.

Considering the majority of that new fence is actually plastic construction mesh, they are full of crap. That type of fencing collapses when you put weight on it and will be torn down by the kids, dogs, and goats within a week.

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