College/ $ vent

[jetzmama]

This thread has been very eye opening.   So thankful for a community to learn from.  Looking forward to reading the rest of it later today.  I am an absolute newbie at the college game with my oldest being only 16 (and my dad having thankfully handled all those details when I was going through), so really appreciate the transparency here.  Apparently we need to be getting more aggressive with dual enrollment and begin scholarship searches in earnest.   

[Tsuga]

FWIW I think it is important to talk about privilege and racism and classism.

 

I do not think dismissing people's legitimate family worries under the guise of advocacy will get us anywhere, though.

[Lori D.]

Apparently we need to be getting more aggressive with dual enrollment and begin scholarship searches in earnest.   

 

This thread is a good starting point for the scholarship search: "Preparing for college, what scholarships/grants to apply for?" For dual enrollment, talk to some local homeschoolers and see what your local options are -- your area may offer free dual enrollment for high school students!

 

Also, check out the pinned threads at the top of the High School Board -- loads of great past threads linked there on all kinds of helpful topics, including dual enrollment and scholarships:

 

"Starting High School, Outsourcing, Online Classes, Tutors, Dual Enrollment, AP / PSAT / ACT & SAT / SAT II / CLEP GED -- links to past threads here!"

- post #1 topics = getting started, books & resources, making a high school plan, outsourcing, tutors, online classes, dual enrollment

- post #2 topics = compare/contrast and pros/cons of AP, PSAT, ACT & SAT, SAT II, CLEP, GED; also some threads on AP vs. dual enrollment

 

"Transcripts, Credits, GPA/Grading, Accreditation, College Prep/Applications, Scholarships/Financial Aid, Career Explorations -- links to past threads here!"

- post #1 topics = planning/scheduling, transcripts, grading/GPA, course descriptions, record keeping, diplomas, accreditation

- post #5 topics = college prep, NCAA, choosing a college, admissions/Common App, freshman orientation/first time at college, financial aid, FAFSA, scholarships, alternatives to 4-year college, career exploration

 

BEST of luck as you get started wearing your administrator's hat! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[creekland]

FWIW I think it is important to talk about privilege and racism and classism.

 

 

On a different thread, sure!

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

On a different thread, sure!

 

I'd agree if it wasn't so clearly represented and illustrated in this thread.

 

 

Perhaps a spinoff thread "Because of commentary in the college vent thread" thread. I dunno.

[JanetC]

Apparently we need to be getting more aggressive with dual enrollment and begin scholarship searches in earnest.

The MOST important thing you can do is learn how to mine college data and find a place that will be the closest academic and financial fit.

 

Finding colleges where the expected parent contirbutions are close to what you can afford generally pays off much better than applying to general scholarships (unless you have an extraordinary student who is competitive for national scholarships). The biggest source of money will be the schools themselves.

 

Finding a school which is willing to give a discount to get your kid often means looking in a slightly different place that your peers. Some of this means having high grades and test scores compared to the applicant pool, but some of this is independent of grades (assuming you have the qualifications to attend). For example, a male student applying to a liberal arts college that is 55% or more female, or simply being a student willing to travel further from home. Schools on the coasts are more popular, midwest and south tend to discount more (on avearge, depends on the school, of course).

[Joules]

The MOST important thing you can do is learn how to mine college data and find a place that will be the closest academic and financial fit.

 

 

I'm looking at the same sorts of things, but something that hits me is schools have trouble being the best academic AND financial fit.  Academic fits seem to be schools where his score is in the median range (50%) or so, but for scholarships his scores need to be in the top 5-10%, so our financial fits are, a new word I learned recently, "undermatching."  

 

Now I'm off to look for a list of schools that have too many girls ;-)

[8filltheheart]

I'm looking at the same sorts of things, but something that hits me is schools have trouble being the best academic AND financial fit.  Academic fits seem to be schools where his score is in the median range (50%) or so, but for scholarships his scores need to be in the top 5-10%, so our financial fits are, a new word I learned recently, "undermatching."  

 

 

That is simple reality in the world of merit $$.  The higher the stats in comparison to the avg, the more likely the student is to receive merit $$.  Some of the "better" schools do offer merit $$, but the reality is that most of those schools are super expensive and the merit $$ still leaves them super expensive and if you are chasing merit $$, you'll probably find yourself still gapped.  For example, Case Western is pretty well-known for $25,000- $30,000 scholarships for high stat students, but with a published COA of $62,000, the price tag is still hefty.

 

FWIW, being "undermatched" hasn't actually equated to any negative experiences for our kids.  They still find ways to challenge themselves and have great UG experiences.

[Joules]

 

 

FWIW, being "undermatched" hasn't actually equated to any negative experiences for our kids.  They still find ways to challenge themselves and have great UG experiences.

 

That's really nice to hear, as I think it will be our reality.  I naturally borrow worries (grad school, employment, etc.), but I do think he'll be happy at some of the places on our application list.

[creekland]

FWIW, being "undermatched" hasn't actually equated to any negative experiences for our kids.  They still find ways to challenge themselves and have great UG experiences.

 

I don't really consider undermatched to happen when kids stay in the Top 100 (or so) schools (where U Alabama and Pitt, etc, are).  Those schools see plenty of students with Top stats and have classes and research, etc, to challenge them.

 

To me (and what I've seen IRL with kids at school), undermatched can happen when a top stat kid attends a school VERY FAR below their stats and without a good Honors program or superb program in a niche field.  Those are the kids who end up bored - those attending a school in the Top 30 regional (or even less than that), not those in the Top 100 nationally.

 

Niche fields can happen making lower level schools attractive due to _____ professor who's very involved with _____ or even at schools like Eckerd where they might not be in the Top 100 nationally, but many in the field put them at the top or near the top (10) for Marine Science - besting several schools with "better" numbers otherwise.

 

There really can be several angles to look at when trying for some deep research into schools.

[Sneezyone]

 

I am hoping to go to grad school in a fairly specialized field (auditory-verbal therapy for the deaf & hard-of-hearing). There aren't that many universities that offer this program and they are spread out all over the country. Since my oldest will be starting high school the same year that I hope to start grad school, I started checking the National Merit cutoffs and added that as a field to my grad school database. It is shocking how wide the variation is. If I go to grad school in AR, MO, MS, SC or UT (all of them in relatively low COL areas) she'd only need to score a 206-209. If I go to a school in NY or TX she'd need a 218. If we stay here in CA, she'd need a 222. If I am lucky enought to have the choice of several grad schools, I'm not going to choose solely based on the NMF cutoff, but it'll definitely play a role in figuring out which makes the most financial sense to take.

 

If you go to school in one of those states, as the kids who are born and raised there do, chances are also pretty good that you wouldn't have access to the kind of teaching and courses that help kids get top scores either. Those cutoffs are relative for a reason, opportunities are not equal nationwide.

[8filltheheart]

. 

 

[idnib]

If you go to school in one of those states, as the kids who are born and raised there do, chances are also pretty good that you wouldn't have access to the kind of teaching and courses that help kids get top scores either. Those cutoffs are relative for a reason, opportunities are not equal nationwide.

 

I agree they have to try and even out deficiencies, but it still is difficult if a student goes to an abysmal school in CA while the student in AL is going to one of the best schools in the state. It would be interesting if the cutoffs could at least be broken down to the regional level or even better, the county level.

[Sneezyone]

My middle of the road high school in Rancho Cucamonga was miles ahead of my top high school in Arkansas. Seriously, hands down.  There are perhaps three public high schools in the entire state that I would consider sending my children to. Three. ETA: Not saying that to be rude or anything. Just suggesting that it'd be a shame to have a bunch of kids who experienced a better quality K-12 experience to deliberately come and take opportunities from local kids who have not had those same opportunities.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm looking at the same sorts of things, but something that hits me is schools have trouble being the best academic AND financial fit. Academic fits seem to be schools where his score is in the median range (50%) or so, but for scholarships his scores need to be in the top 5-10%, so our financial fits are, a new word I learned recently, "undermatching."

 

Now I'm off to look for a list of schools that have too many girls ;-)

One thing to try to determine is what the general student ability is like among students in similar programs. The bigger and broader the school the more likely that the scores for average students will approach mean SAT scores even though scores for specific departments and programs may be much higher.

[cathmom]

 

Dh acutally teaches college courses on-line. His take- away is that the quality is pretty abysmal. He's had students in GRAD classes who have NEVER written an APA style paper and offended that he requires it.

.

I'm not sure why that's so shocking. I started a PhD program last August and I had never written an APA style paper. My MA was in lit and we used MLA style. I find APA annoying and confusing so far, but I'm sure I just need to get used to it.

 

As for the rest of the thread, I'm incredibly cynical about college costs. Poor people have it much harder getting through college than people on here seem to think. There are hidden expenses everywhere even if one has a "full ride." Are you guys aware that taxes must be paid on scholarships that cover room and board? That was an unwelcome bill my oldest's first year of college and caused me a lot of stress as I tried to figure out how to pay it. And it just goes on and on.

[Crimson Wife]

Some of us have no idea what 50K a year even looks like. Struggling on 100K IS laughable to those of use struggling on a fraction of that. If someone is struggling with 100K (in a HCOL area), imagine how hard it is for the families trying to make ends meet on 50K or even 25K or 30K in that same HCOL area. There are people trying to do just that. Those who are doing this get fed up hearing about those make 2-4 times the amount complain about how hard they have it as they are in their solid homes, driving a car that they do not have to baby along to get to the store and then hope will start to get them home again and just needs to make it until the end of the month and then, maybe, they can get it fixed. Right, wrong, or otherwise, it is reality for many to live on so little in a HCOL area. I promise, it really is MUCH harder to live on 25K in a HCOL area than it is to live on 100K. If you are living on 100K,sit with your budget and try to figure out how to survive on 1/4 of that. There are people trying to do just that.

A family making $30k would qualify for free public housing and healthcare, thereby avoiding paying probably $40k/yr in expenses. I think YOU are the one who has no clue.

[Crimson Wife]

Some of us have no idea what 50K a year even looks like. Struggling on 100K IS laughable to those of use struggling on a fraction of that. If someone is struggling with 100K (in a HCOL area), imagine how hard it is for the families trying to make ends meet on 50K or even 25K or 30K in that same HCOL area. There are people trying to do just that. Those who are doing this get fed up hearing about those make 2-4 times the amount complain about how hard they have it as they are in their solid homes, driving a car that they do not have to baby along to get to the store and then hope will start to get them home again and just needs to make it until the end of the month and then, maybe, they can get it fixed. Right, wrong, or otherwise, it is reality for many to live on so little in a HCOL area. I promise, it really is MUCH harder to live on 25K in a HCOL area than it is to live on 100K. If you are living on 100K,sit with your budget and try to figure out how to survive on 1/4 of that. There are people trying to do just that.

A family making $30k would qualify for free public housing and healthcare, thereby avoiding paying probably $40k/yr in expenses. I think YOU are the one who has no clue.

[bettyandbob]

A family making $30k would qualify for free public housing and healthcare, thereby avoiding paying probably $40k/yr in expenses. I think YOU are the one who has no clue.

Seriously?

 

You think someone who makes 30K has it easy compared to people closer to 100K.

 

I understand the frustration with having an income that puts a family over the line for aid. I'm right there and I will likely have two kids in college next year. And no one cares that I have a child with a disability that adds costs to our family that do not occur in other families. But geez, I know my life is probably easy compared to a family living on 30k, even if they have public housing. Shoot, there is "nice" public housing about 5 miles from my home. I wouldn't want to live there.

[creekland]

I understand the frustration with having an income that puts a family over the line for aid. I'm right there and I will likely have two kids in college next year. And no one cares that I have a child with a disability that adds costs to our family that do not occur in other families.

 

Actually, this IS something many schools will adjust aid for and one that's allowed for federal aid.  It's worth asking schools you're interested in.

 

[Renai]

A family making $30k would qualify for free public housing and healthcare, thereby avoiding paying probably $40k/yr in expenses. I think YOU are the one who has no clue.

 

Do you have any idea how long the lists are for free public housing? It can be years. Years. One can't just walk in and apply and they have a place for you. It's just not like that. By the time your name comes up, your situation may have improved just enough to not qualify anymore. Oh, and free public housing, well, let's just say you get what you pay for. Oh, speaking of which, it really isn't free. They determine your rent by how much you make. I would hope most people are trying to get housing in accordance with their income level (although I know it is not always possible). 

 

For Medicaid, at the 100% poverty level (~$30,000), you have to be a family of 6. They've extended eligibility to those at 150% of the poverty level which would cover a family of 4, everyone else (151%-250%) will pay something, according to the income level.

 

We don't make a lot, although we work hard. When I had to pay health insurance at one of my previous jobs, it took so much of my paycheck I couldn't pay rent, let alone see a doctor. I took my girls off and put them on Medicaid since they qualified, and paid for my spouse and I. Then, we just couldn't afford the doctor ourselves (so was paying for nothing), but at least my girls were covered.

 

I do not disparage those more well off than I, and see the conundrum of being "just" over and still being expected to do more. I told dh all the time, they work for theirs just like we work for ours (dh worked construction in many very well-to-do homes). But to say that all a poorer person has to do is this or that and they can get by, simply is not true.

 

I don't expect my daughter to get into college on a free ride. I didn't. She's an average student, so not counting on merit money. In fact, I don't count on anything, because I don't know where our situation will be in 3 years. We just do the best we can with what we have, which I imagine everyone else is doing.

[Tsuga]

A family making $30k would qualify for free public housing and healthcare, thereby avoiding paying probably $40k/yr in expenses. I think YOU are the one who has no clue.

Wow, and they say WE have good benefits in WA

maybe it is time to move to Alabama!

 

Free pyblic housing and healthcare on $30k?

 

And here all I got was a subsidy and discount through school on 2/3 that. And I still had to buy books! (I rented and shared.)

 

I have been poor and fairly middle class. We are coming up and will, I hope, soon have strong finances again. I don't think the middle class in the US has it easy, for reasons enumerated above.

 

But your idea of poverty is wrong.

 

I know many of the liars, schemers and cheaters speak the loudest. Whether they are selling dope and calling it a grant or what, the people who magically have a free life are full of ish. Please know that and do not believe them. There really is no free ride.

[Caroline]

She is in California, not Alabama. It's not the Roll Tide type of Crimson.

 

Wow, and they say WE have good benefits in WA

maybe it is time to move to Alabama!

 

Free pyblic housing and healthcare on $30k?

 

And here all I got was a subsidy and discount through school on 2/3 that. And I still had to buy books! (I rented and shared.)

 

I have been poor and fairly middle class. We are coming up and will, I hope, soon have strong finances again. I don't think the middle class in the US has it easy, for reasons enumerated above.

 

But your idea of poverty is wrong.

 

I know many of the liars, schemers and cheaters speak the loudest. Whether they are selling dope and calling it a grant or what, the people who magically have a free life are full of ish. Please know that and do not believe them. There really is no free ride.

[idnib]

Geez I wish we could just have thread in which we all can rant about the cost of education in the U.S. without other people trying to bring others down, whether its the high income parents bringing down the lower income (see: this thread) or the lower income bringing down the higher income (see: this thread). The cost of higher education just sucks all around in this country. Can we at least agree on that?  :(

[Tsuga]

And can I just say, because I know poor people, lots of them:

 

It's not that some people assume that the poor have it easy.

 

It is that a very small number of people LIE to cover up other sources of income. If you don't know the rules, you think, "Wow, free health insurance? And you make $30k? That's not fair!"

 

But maybe they don't have health insurance. Maybe they don't make $30k and they stole those clothes. Maybe it's under the table, you know?

 

But these stories stick. Why?

 

Because they are so shocking. So unfair. So absurd. So angering. "Really? You can have a kid and make money? No way!" Well, no. Actually no way. BUT they might be neglecting the kid and it will come back to bite them or you think they have new clothes but really a rich cousin hands them down. Or whatever.

 

So, yes, we need to be incredulous. But having a relative (distant) who has lied about her student status and more, just to pretend she isn't spending child support on new clothes and get boyfriend, well, I get how the rumors start.

 

It's not all assumptions and disparagement. So maybe we could have a real conversation about that. Like, why do people believe these things? Where are these ideas coming from?

 

And not dismiss people's concerns about trying to get the bed for their kids because most of us on this earth are doing that and we will continue to do so no matter how well off we are because that's what people do.

[Tsuga]

She is in California, not Alabama. It's not the Roll Tide type of Crimson.

 

 

Oh darn. We can't afford California even with free housing and health care, LOL.

[Renai]

Geez I wish we could just have thread where we all can rant about the cost of education in the U.S. without other people trying to bring others down, whether its the high income parents bringing down the lower income (see: this thread) or the lower income bringing down the higher income (see: this thread). The cost of higher education just sucks all around in this country. Can we at least agree on that?  :(

 

Some type of education crisis will have to happen before the higher education system changes. This country operates on crises, instead of crisis prevention...

[Catwoman]

Geez I wish we could just have thread where we all can rant about the cost of education in the U.S. without other people trying to bring others down, whether its the high income parents bringing down the lower income (see: this thread) or the lower income bringing down the higher income (see: this thread). The cost of higher education just sucks all around in this country. Can we at least agree on that? :(

:iagree:

 

I really hope we can discuss our concerns, fears, worries, triumphs, and failures regarding our kids' educations without having to worry that we are being judged based upon our financial circumstances.

[creekland]

Some type of education crisis will have to happen before the higher education system changes. This country operates on crises, instead of crisis prevention...

 

And this isn't likely to happen at top schools (top couple hundred + top in specialties).  For some of the lower level schools, it could.  It already has with a few.

 

Top schools attract foreign students as well as plenty from the US.  Most I've been watching have had their acceptance rates drop (or are already really low).  More students are applying, not less.  Yields remain good.  Why change what is working just fine (from their perspective)?

[8filltheheart]

The cost of higher education just sucks all around in this country. Can we at least agree on that? :(

I think this really sums up the entire issue.

 

In simple terms, it is not unusual for a middle class family's EFC to be 20-25% of their annual income--some more, some less. In terms of our family, that means 8 yrs of annual income for college. :rofl: :eek: :scared: :ack2: (IOW, ummm, not anywhere close to a realistic scenario.)

 

In comparison, when my dh and I went to college, we paid our own way and what we had to borrow combined for all 4 yrs for both of us was the equivalent to LESS than 1/3 of 1 yr's worth of his first yr' salary.

 

That is the real world reality of college costs gone amuck. My first yr's college tuition as a full-time student was $700 for the yr. At that same university, full-time tuition is now $8600.

 

For our kids, attending where we have to pay the equivalent of our EFC is just not going to happen. Period.

 

So, our kids do have very limited college attendance options. I just refuse to lament over it. The older ones had (or are having) great experiences at their affordable options. My sophomore has decided she is just going to live at home and commute to a local school. She was incredibly ill for 2 weeks. It was scary and sobering. She has decided to forget about trying for top merit money (the only way for them to attend elsewhere) and de-stress the rest of high school. She can get scholarship $$ to attend there based on just what she has right now. The next one down will be attending locally to bc she wants to major in meteorology and they have a great program. (Both lower my stress bc I don't have to spend hours upon hours as guidance counselor searching for schools where they can get top $$ awards.)

 

I really don't care one way or the other. We don't have our sights set on top schools. We just want our kids to be able to get jobs that will let them have full and happy lives.

[idnib]

Some type of education crisis will have to happen before the higher education system changes. This country operates on crises, instead of crisis prevention...

 

Sigh. Silly me, I thought this was a crisis.

[creekland]

Sigh. Silly me, I thought this was a crisis.

 

Not while most schools still have bursting at or past the seams classes.  Why should they change?  (In their eyes - not meaning it literally as a question.)

 

Some schools have raised their cost just so they don't appear to be inferior due to lower cost... or so goes the grapevine anyway.

[8filltheheart]

Not while most schools still have bursting at or past the seams classes.  Why should they change?  (In their eyes - not meaning it literally as a question.)

 

Some schools have raised their cost just so they don't appear to be inferior due to lower cost... or so goes the grapevine anyway.

 

I disagree.  I think the crisis is brewing below the surface.  I know from listening to my own young adult relatives talk that they think the college debt loan situation is the next crisis with a bail out coming.  It irritates me to no end listening to them talk.  They feel entitled to have their loans forgiven.  (And one used grad school loans to buy a car and travel to Europe. This young lady in particular was told she was foolish to accept all the loan money she was offered.)

 

I think the entire loan mentality is a big part of the problem driving the costs up.

[Renai]

Not while most schools still have bursting at or past the seams classes.  Why should they change?  (In their eyes - not meaning it literally as a question.)

 

Some schools have raised their cost just so they don't appear to be inferior due to lower cost... or so goes the grapevine anyway.

 

 

I disagree.  I think the crisis is brewing below the surface.  I know from listening to my own young adult relatives talk that they think the college debt loan situation is the next crisis with a bail out coming.  It irritates me to no end listening to them talk.  They feel entitled to have their loans forgiven.  (And one used grad school loans to buy a car and travel to Europe.)   This young lady in general was told she was foolish to accept all the loan money she was offered.  

 

I think the entire loan mentality is a big part of the problem driving the costs up.

 

I agree with both of you. The loan problem is a brewing crisis, and as long as people are willing to pay the prices of the top tier schools and take out loans to do so, the schools will not change.

 

You would think 'they' are trying to filter people out of a college education with the prices.Is the degree saturation so bad that they need fewer degreed? If so, what happens to everyone else? My girls have an 11 year age gap. I'm not sure about the one graduating in 3 years, let alone the next in line.

[regentrude]

You would think 'they' are trying to filter people out of a college education with the prices.Is the degree saturation so bad that they need fewer degreed?

 

I don't know who "they" would be, and I don't believe in conspiracy theories. And no, I don't believe in "degree saturation" either. Our school is actively recruiting and increasing enrollment, but as long as our graduates get snapped up with great starting salaries, I must conclude that there is no saturation.

(And we still can't recruit good American grad students)

[Renai]

I don't know who "they" would be, and I don't believe in conspiracy theories. And no, I don't believe in "degree saturation" either. Our school is actively recruiting and increasing enrollment, but as long as our graduates get snapped up with great starting salaries, I must conclude that there is no saturation.

(And we still can't recruit good American grad students)

 

I don't believe in conspiracy theories either. These are questions I got from reading this thread and other things. (For example, there are so many undergrad degrees, that one must have a grad degree to stand out and get a good job, is one thing I've heard.) I've honestly not put this much thought into the college question (other than whether my LD-daughter will even make it) until I read this thread. I don't know who "they" is either, thus the quotation marks. I really just. don't. know. That's why I'm throwing it out there and hoping someone will answer with their points of view, like you have. Thanks.

 

I'm a great grad student! :D Doing a heck of a lot better than I ever did in undergrad.

[regentrude]

For example, there are so many undergrad degrees, that one must have a grad degree to stand out and get a good job, is one thing I've heard.

 

That's not generally true - it depends entirely on the field. In many fields, an undergrad degree gets a good job. In others, not so much.

[swimmermom3]

I don't know who "they" would be, and I don't believe in conspiracy theories. And no, I don't believe in "degree saturation" either. Our school is actively recruiting and increasing enrollment, but as long as our graduates get snapped up with great starting salaries, I must conclude that there is no saturation.

(And we still can't recruit good American grad students)

 

I am having a dense day. Why can't you recruit good American grad students? Ds wants to be one of those. :tongue_smilie:

[regentrude]

I am having a dense day. Why can't you recruit good American grad students? Ds wants to be one of those. :tongue_smilie:

 

Because none are applying in our department. Believe me, we'd love to accept strong American applicants, but we barely have any. \

 

[swimmermom3]

Because none are applying in our department. Believe me, we'd love to accept American applicants, but we barely have any.

 

Are there not that many American students doing graduate work in physics?

 

[regentrude]

Are there not that many American students doing graduate work in physics?

 

 

nope.

No time to search for the stats at APS specifically for physics, so wiki must suffice:

 

 

• 55% of Ph.D. students in engineering in the United States are foreign born (2004).^[3]
• Between 1980 and 2000, the percentage of Ph.D. scientists and engineers employed in the United States who were born abroad has increased from 24% to 37%.^[3]
• 45% of Ph.D. physicists working in the United States are foreign born (2004).^[3]
• 80% of total post-doctoral chemical and materials engineering in the United States are foreign-born (1988).^[4]
• 33% of all U.S. Ph.D.s in science and engineering are now awarded to foreign born graduate students (2004).
• 60% of the top science students and 65 percent of the top math students in the United States are the children of immigrants. In addition, foreign-born high school students make up 50 percent of the 2004 U.S.Math Olympiad’s top scorers, 38 percent of the U.S. Physics Team, and 25 percent of the Intel Science Talent Search finalists—the United States’ most prestigious awards for young scientists and mathematicians.^[6]

 

[regentrude]

And here's some APS data.

http://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/temp-residents.cfm

[amsunshine]

Interesting stats, and I'm not surprised.  I'm inclined to believe this has something to do with the quality of math and science education in our country.  However, this thread has me wondering -- does it also have something to do with money?  Foreign students are well-qualified, I have no doubt.  But they also have to have a good amount of money to get here.  Just kind of thinking out loud.  

[regentrude]

Interesting stats, and I'm not surprised.  I'm inclined to believe this has something to do with the quality of math and science education in our country.  However, this thread has me wondering -- does it also have something to do with money?  Foreign students are well-qualified, I have no doubt.  But they also have to have a good amount of money to get here.  Just kind of thinking out loud.  

 

No, because they don't pay - in physics, grad students are paid by the department. Either free tuition plus a stipend, or a larger stipend that covers tuition.

 

[Renai]

nope.

No time to search for the stats at APS specifically for physics, so wiki must suffice:

Ok, so this may be for another thread, but are these stats what prompted a STEM approach in the first place? (Now back to your regularly scheduled thread..."

[amsunshine]

No, because they don't pay - in physics, grad students are paid by the department. Either free tuition plus a stipend, or a larger stipend that covers tuition.

 

 

Oh, wow!  I had no idea.  So, it is just the cr*ppy American education system, then.  Depressing.

[chiguirre]

Oh, wow!  I had no idea.  So, it is just the cr*ppy American education system, then.  Depressing.

Not exactly. An American would have a much higher opportunity cost than many foreign grad students. They'd have to live on a grad student stipend and post-docs for years instead of taking a $60,000/year job right after undergrad. Then there's the crap shoot of getting a tenure track position. A foreign student from a country with radically lower wages (oh, Venezuela, for example) has a different calculation to make.

 

Two of dh's university mechanical engineering friends ended up doing PhDs in the US. One is a tenured professor and one is an occasional adjunct/well paid consultant/primary parent. Dh and one other friend won scholarships to study energy economics and an MBA. All of this batch live in the US. Two other friends went to Italy to work. Only 2 out of 8 of the best ME students stayed in Venezuela. That's the global brain drain in action.

[Frances]

Geez I wish we could just have thread in which we all can rant about the cost of education in the U.S. without other people trying to bring others down, whether its the high income parents bringing down the lower income (see: this thread) or the lower income bringing down the higher income (see: this thread). The cost of higher education just sucks all around in this country. Can we at least agree on that? :(

Presidential candidate Bernie Sanders recently introduced a bill in Congress to make all public four year universities free with funding primarily coming from small transaction fees on various Wall Street transactions. Of course it won't go anywhere in this Congress, but it's interesting to contemplate.

[Bootsie]

Not exactly. An American would have a much higher opportunity cost than many foreign grad students. They'd have to live on a grad student stipend and post-docs for years instead of taking a $60,000/year job right after undergrad. Then there's the crap shoot of getting a tenure track position. A foreign student from a country with radically lower wages (oh, Venezuela, for example) has a different calculation to make.

 

Two of dh's university mechanical engineering friends ended up doing PhDs in the US. One is a tenured professor and one is an occasional adjunct/well paid consultant/primary parent. Dh and one other friend won scholarships to study energy economics and an MBA. All of this batch live in the US. Two other friends went to Italy to work. Only 2 out of 8 of the best ME students stayed in Venezuela. That's the global brain drain in action.

The statistics in finance are similar to those in physics.  Yes, the opportunity cost of American students who want to pursue a PhD are probably different from that of an international student.  Also, international students who want to pursue a PhD in the US tend to concentrate in more mathematical fields.  If, for example, for many international students who are interested in a business field, finance, with relatively less English, is comparatively easier. 

[8filltheheart]

Presidential candidate Bernie Sanders recently introduced a bill in Congress to make all public four year universities free with funding primarily coming from small transaction fees on various Wall Street transactions. Of course it won't go anywhere in this Congress, but it's interesting to contemplate.

I personally think it is a horrible idea. While I think college costs are out of control, making it free via federal $$ seems like a straight line to bureaucratic induced academic decline. I would like to see costs come down, but I equally do not want to see our colleges end up being simple extensions our k12 system.