Mimicoto Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 My nearly 8 yo DS has good math sense - he grasps most things quickly on a conceptual level and enjoys doing (what I consider to be) advanced mental math on his own 'for fun'... BUT... He is still struggling with basic math facts. He is still finger counting for addition and subtraction, and clearly does not have the basics memorized. This is tripping him up when we're working on fractions, measurements, word problems etc. and will only compound if it's not addressed NOW. I have purchased MM addition and subtraction to help remediate. We are also putting together an addition and subtraction lapbook from Knowledge Box Central and are playing card games and such as added practice, but it's slow going. We've tried Xtra Math, but he finds it stressful....trying to count on his fingers fast enough to 'beat the clock' :sad: My question is this: do I put his regular math curriculum aside while we concentrate on the math facts, or do I do both in parallel? My instinct is to stop and get solid with the basics, but as a newbie I'd love to hear from others who've dealt with similar issues. FTR, we have used TT this year. I blame the curriculum in part - we will not be using next year...But I also chalk it up to my own learning curve...had no clue I should be supplementing :( Any other suggestions as to ways to strengthen his basic math skills would be greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Mostly, I'd say move ahead and remediate on the side. In this case, I'd vote for spending a couple weeks remediating only and then move on to new concepts with continued fact work on the side. Post that might help re: fingers pressed together: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/533786-can-we-talk-mathdyscalculia/?p=6031453 (I'd allow as much work with rods or number line or whatever other manipulatives work.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 He is still struggling with basic math facts. He is still finger counting for addition and subtraction, and clearly does not have the basics memorized. This is tripping him up when we're working on fractions, measurements, word problems etc. and will only compound if it's not addressed NOW. I have purchased MM addition and subtraction to help remediate. We are also putting together an addition and subtraction lapbook from Knowledge Box Central and are playing card games and such as added practice, but it's slow going. We've tried Xtra Math, but he finds it stressful....trying to count on his fingers fast enough to 'beat the clock' :sad: My question is this: do I put his regular math curriculum aside while we concentrate on the math facts, or do I do both in parallel? My instinct is to stop and get solid with the basics, but as a newbie I'd love to hear from others who've dealt with similar issues. I strongly agree with you that this is going to slow him down and will only get worse--definitely get them solid now. That said, I don't think there's one right answer about whether to take a break from the regular curriculum or not. Either can be a fine option. If your instinct is to stop, I'd say to stop. Since your son has such good math sense, it will likely not take very long for him to master them once you stop to focus on the facts. tMath Mammoth's addition and subtraction are awesome for remediating the facts. Just make sure to use your son's great conceptual knowledge to his advantage. Let him think through the strategies for figuring out the groups of facts as he tackles the facts at the beginning, and they'll be automatic at the end. If your ds tends to count rather than think in groups of numbers, you also might want to add on the RightStart AL Abacus (which Maria Miller recommends to supplement the Math Mammoth addition and subtraction sections.) Or, you can use printable ten-frames for a cheaper option. I have an article here on how to use ten-frames to teach the +9 and +8 facts, and an article here with six steps for teaching math facts in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Agree with wapiti. Move ahead and work on math fact acquisition daily as a parallel thing. Use manipulatives, songs, games, etc. to solidify the facts, but for some kids it is the meatier later math that keeps them engaged and helps them see the reason behind math. FWIW, CLE keeps reviewing math facts daily as a side thing to the main math program all the way through 5th grade. You have time. Keep at it, but provide scaffolding so your child can still move forward. Drill and kill without forward progress can destroy any affinity for math. You might also look at the Ronit Bird ebooks. He may need some help with subitization skills for the math facts. Really awesome resource. There are three ebooks. I am linking the first one, which uses dot patterns. Some kids really need to see and to break apart and put numbers back together again without the actual numbers first, then add in the numbers later. http://www.ronitbird.com/ebooks/#ebook1 ETA, if you wanted to pause for a few weeks to work on math facts, there is nothing inherently wrong in doing so. I don't think constant drill and kill worksheets would be the way to go. Definitely incorporate various resources for a lot of hands on as well as written and verbal practice. Games, an Abacus, Ronit Bird, flash cards, etc. Do lots of different things, with consistent review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I strongly agree with you that this is going to slow him down and will only get worse--definitely get them solid now. That said, I don't think there's one right answer about whether to take a break from the regular curriculum or not. Either can be a fine option. If your instinct is to stop, I'd say to stop. Since your son has such good math sense, it will likely not take very long for him to master them once you stop to focus on the facts. tMath Mammoth's addition and subtraction are awesome for remediating the facts. Just make sure to use your son's great conceptual knowledge to his advantage. Let him think through the strategies for figuring out the groups of facts as he tackles the facts at the beginning, and they'll be automatic at the end. If your ds tends to count rather than think in groups of numbers, you also might want to add on the RightStart AL Abacus (which Maria Miller recommends to supplement the Math Mammoth addition and subtraction sections.) Or, you can use printable ten-frames for a cheaper option. I have an article here on how to use ten-frames to teach the +9 and +8 facts, and an article here with six steps for teaching math facts in general. Yes MM or the RS Abacus may definitely help, too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyGF Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 My nearly 8 yo DH has good math sense - he grasps most things quickly on a conceptual level and enjoys doing (what I consider to be) My question is this: do I put his regular math curriculum aside while we concentrate on the math facts, or do I do both in parallel? My instinct is to stop and get solid with the basics, but as a newbie I'd love to hear from others who've dealt with similar issues. This would kill my daughter's love for math. She isn't solid in her facts but she gets things quickly (we frequently go through two math lessons per day because she'll give me the "Mom, this is so obvious" look). In addition to math from the book, she does ReflexMath for 20 minutes per day. XtraMath was a bad fit for her (the timing made her give up). She's making gains and enjoying math. She is also 8. Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimicoto Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Thank you everyone! You've given me lots to work with...Emily, your DD sounds exactly like my DS 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 You might also look at the Ronit Bird ebooks. He may need some help with subitization skills for the math facts. Really awesome resource. There are three ebooks. I am linking the first one, which uses dot patterns. Some kids really need to see and to break apart and put numbers back together again without the actual numbers first, then add in the numbers later. http://www.ronitbird.com/ebooks/#ebook1 These look fantastic! I've seen them mentioned before but I didn't fully understand what they were about. Thanks for the link. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimicoto Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 One quick follow up question if you'll indulge me ... I am planning to drop TT and move to MM as I'm having the same experience as posters in other math threads - low retention despite high scores. But we're not done TT yet. Should we finish the book or just take placement tests and switch now? I'd say we have about 6-8 weeks left if I accelerate things by dropping the huge amounts of review in each TT lesson... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourisenough Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 As others have mentioned: AL abacus from Right Start. The little booklet that comes with it is surprisingly info-packed and effective. Take a few days to a couple weeks to learn to use the Abacus the way it is intended, then allow him to use this with the MM topical book, entering every problem on the Abacus until he no longer needs it. This will hopefully eliminate the need to count on his fingers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junie Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I am working on the same problem with dd8. She is almost a year behind in math, but she is not yet solid in her basic skills. We are moving ahead and working on multiplication facts at the same time. She is learning long division. I have to sit right next to her and I let her use a "cheat sheet". Other days we put the math book away and just work on flash cards. She is beginning to learn the concepts of more difficult math, so once she has her facts in place she will be closer to being caught up. I'm afraid to put the math book away completely because I think it is going to take her a long time to get all of her facts memorized. She would be very far behind if we didn't work ahead while learning the facts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdj2027 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 My nearly 8 yo DH has good math sense - he grasps most things quickly on a conceptual level and enjoys doing (what I consider to be) advanced mental math on his own 'for fun'... Sorry, I couldn't resist :lol: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Yes, stop now and use Ronit Bird e-books, the RS abacus, 10 trays, dominoes, and counters. Make the math light and fun and get him caught up over the summer. MM has never appealed to me or my DS. Use a white board and check out CLE or Developmental math. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 One quick follow up question if you'll indulge me ... I am planning to drop TT and move to MM as I'm having the same experience as posters in other math threads - low retention despite high scores. But we're not done TT yet. Should we finish the book or just take placement tests and switch now? I'd say we have about 6-8 weeks left if I accelerate things by dropping the huge amounts of review in each TT lesson... Mimicoto, which TT is your son in? I suspect that anything you're working on at this stage will be reviewed and reinforced eventually in MM. At this stage, books have such different scopes and sequences that something at the end of TT might very well be in a completely different place in MM. I also wrote an article called "Do I have to finish the math book?" that might give you some ideas, too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimicoto Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 Sorry, I couldn't resist :lol:I'm not sure what's funny? Asking honestly - I don't take myself too seriously ;-) What I mean is that he easily does double digit multiplication in his head (we've not done multiplication yet), sees math patterns in shapes and does complex mazes without backtracking...he was doing random addition with clear understanding from the backseat at age 3-4...it seems to have become problematic when it came to 'numbers on paper' work. FWIW he's a strong reader but a weak writer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimicoto Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 Mimicoto, which TT is your son in? I suspect that anything you're working on at this stage will be reviewed and reinforced eventually in MM. At this stage, books have such different scopes and sequences that something at the end of TT might very well be in a completely different place in MM. I also wrote an article called "Do I have to finish the math book?" that might give you some ideas, too. He's in TT 3 ... Thanks for the link - will definitely read it. BTW looking fwd to your WTM workshop :-)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 If he's in 3, I wouldn't worry about finishing...those topics will all come back. Based on what you've said about him figuring things out, he sounds very intuitive in math. He is going to absolutely fly through new material once he's no longer using his working memory to figure out the math facts! Glad you're looking forward to the conference talk--I am, too! :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junie Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I'm not sure what's funny? Asking honestly - I don't take myself too seriously ;-) What I mean is that he easily does double digit multiplication in his head (we've not done multiplication yet), sees math patterns in shapes and does complex mazes without backtracking...he was doing random addition with clear understanding from the backseat at age 3-4...it seems to have become problematic when it came to 'numbers on paper' work. FWIW he's a strong reader but a weak writer... In your post you wrote dh, which is short for dear husband. Ds is short for dear son. She's not laughing at you or your post. It just gave her the giggles. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I'm not sure what's funny? Asking honestly - I don't take myself too seriously ;-) What I mean is that he easily does double digit multiplication in his head (we've not done multiplication yet), sees math patterns in shapes and does complex mazes without backtracking...he was doing random addition with clear understanding from the backseat at age 3-4...it seems to have become problematic when it came to 'numbers on paper' work. FWIW he's a strong reader but a weak writer... My son was so like this...we found he'd rather have repeated practice with problems like 3574 + 5496 + 5489 +1230 than pages and pages (or review and review) of the individual math facts. When he did the large problems, it was like the practice faded to the background, and he enjoyed it more. His accuracy was stunning. His speed was mediocre but better than it would have been with a page of individual problems by far. He also preferred much harder multiplication as well. My younger son is following a similar trend, but he also likes mental math. And white boards seem to work wonders for kids this age. It makes everything rote more appealing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I'm not sure what's funny? Asking honestly - I don't take myself too seriously ;-) What I mean is that he easily does double digit multiplication in his head (we've not done multiplication yet), sees math patterns in shapes and does complex mazes without backtracking...he was doing random addition with clear understanding from the backseat at age 3-4...it seems to have become problematic when it came to 'numbers on paper' work. FWIW he's a strong reader but a weak writer... What happens when you scribe for him? If he knows the math when you scribe but is struggling with the written output then the issue isn't really math. Have you considered allowing him to use a 10-keypad and reviewing facts using MUS's online drills application? If he is a weak writer you can accommodate with stamps, scribe for him, magnetic numbers, and he could use an OT evaluation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 If you had a reason to wait for a bit to go on in the program, you might consider doing something more conceptual but fun to keep his interest up. I'm sure there are all kinds of possibilities, but in the past we did a unit on codes for a similar purpose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I'm not sure what's funny? Asking honestly - I don't take myself too seriously ;-) What I mean is that he easily does double digit multiplication in his head (we've not done multiplication yet), sees math patterns in shapes and does complex mazes without backtracking...he was doing random addition with clear understanding from the backseat at age 3-4...it seems to have become problematic when it came to 'numbers on paper' work. FWIW he's a strong reader but a weak writer... What Junie said. She isn't laughing at you. She was just tickled that you wrote nearly 8yo DH (Dear Husband) instead of nearly 8yo DS (Dear Son). She absolutely wasn't laughing at your son's math situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimicoto Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 In your post you wrote dh, which is short for dear husband. Ds is short for dear son. She's not laughing at you or your post. It just gave her the giggles. :) Oh dear - that is funny :rofl: Sleep deprived me :001_rolleyes: Thanks for the laugh!! :D ETA: seriously though, my DH has been known to behave like an 8 yo, so it's not a stretch ;) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammish Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Just throwing in my two cents... My ds is also 8 and also very mathy. What I've found in our case is that just doing flashcards works best for him. He did Reflex math for a while, and some other games, but we eventually dropped them because he just wanted something to get 'er done and get it over with, without all the extra flash. At the beginning of this year we worked on the times tables, and for about a month and a half, that's all we did for math Monday- Thursday (Friday is always fun math - like a game). We worked through them slowly, starting with just the easiest ones, and only adding in more once he had the previous ones learned, day by day, until he knew them all cold. We tend to do short lessons anyway, and all we did was the flashcards, so it was short and sweet. I figured that trying to remember all those facts was fairly mentally taxing, and I didn't want to burn him out on math, so we didn't do any other math lessons until he knew the facts. My thought was that not doing anything else allowed us to focus our attention on just learning those facts, and therefore didn't draw it out any longer than it had to be. (As an aside: I was that kid in AP Calculus in high school who still had to count on her fingers because I wasn't solid on my basic math facts. I was an adult before I really got good at basic adding and subtracting, mostly out of self-defense so I could keep up with my kid. It was embarrassing to have him add something in his head, and then fifteen seconds later have me go "yes, that's right!" It sure would have made my life easier to have learned them a little earlier. :)) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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