AOPS and Saxon?

[MaeFlowers]

Can I do both in one year?

 

A little background. I pulled ds out of ps after second grade. We started 3rd with MM. It was terrible, horrible, and awful. I dropped it after the first chapter and gave him BA. He liked it but didn't love it. He did fine but by Christmas he was tired of having to think. So, we went back to MM. He finished that at the end of February and because we had so much time left, I ordered SM to finish out the year. He liked it because he said it was "so easy". I didn't like that it was "so easy" and hated switching between all the books so I switched him to Saxon for this past school year. He has done great with Saxon. He moves through the material quickly and the spiral method seems to work well with his attention issues. Math this year has been an independent venture for him (his choice).

Here's my problem. Saxon is not challenging him. He doesn't even read the lesson. He just does the work and somehow figures it out. That's why I thought AOPS PreA might be good for him. He needs some challenge. Two things give me pause about using it. One, the long-winded explanations. I can't imagine him reading through them. I think I can circumvent some of this by explaining it myself instead o asking him to read it on his own.  Second, burnout. BA was a good fit for him but you could physically see it draining him. He would prefer not having to think.

 

What would you do? I was thinking about using AOPS as the primary program and letting him fall back on Saxon when he needs a break. Is that crazy?

[OneStepAtATime]

Just for clarification, is he ready for Pre-Algebra?  What level had he completed in Saxon?  AoPS is pretty intense.  Have you looked at other Pre-Algebra programs?  If he doesn't like to think, AoPS may not be a good fit.  I'm a bit confused, though.  SM is Singapore Math?  Or...?  Singapore is a thinking math.  It is more conceptual than Saxon.  If he was breezing through Singapore, maybe he just needs to bump up a level?  Same with Saxon.  Did you give a placement test?  Maybe he needed to start with a higher level?

 

Having said all that, DS is using CLE (spiral) with AoPS PA, but we are using CLE as the spine (LOVE CLE) and AoPS as a side thing.

 

 

[MaeFlowers]

I have always placed ds based on the placement tests and he did fine with the AOPS pretest. My understanding is that it is pretty easy and may not be indicative of being ready. However, I did go ahead and buy the books and look through them. I think in terms of math skills, he will be fine. It is the reading that gives me pause. He isn't going to want to do it. He likes to just get his work done asap. I guess it is a maturity issue.

I'm curious how you are doing cle plus aops. Do you match the chapters by content or ???

[OneStepAtATime]

I have always placed ds based on the placement tests and he did fine with the AOPS pretest. My understanding is that it is pretty easy and may not be indicative of being ready. However, I did go ahead and buy the books and look through them. I think in terms of math skills, he will be fine. It is the reading that gives me pause. He isn't going to want to do it. He likes to just get his work done asap. I guess it is a maturity issue.

I'm curious how you are doing cle plus aops. Do you match the chapters by content or ???

Then what you might consider is using the videos on the AoPS sight for instruction.  He could log on and watch those.  It might cut out some of the reading.  It IS a lot of reading.  We just were recommended these videos and I have not used them yet for instruction but they look good so far.

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/videos/prealgebra/chapter1/20

 

FWIW, I have to read the AoPS material to DS.  He is dyslexic and the reading would overwhelm him.  Reading a lot of the material to him has worked very well, but DS loves discussion and brainstorming.  He prefers having someone else to discuss with.  (DD?  Not at all.  She wants minimal instruction and as much autonomy as possible  :). )

 

As for how we do AoPS and CLE, DS does CLE M, W, F.  He works pretty independently on those days.  Sometimes he also does Math In Focus word problems, since the CLE word problems are more procedural, less conceptual.  DS can and does do CLE pretty independently, as I mentioned, but I write a lot of the problems on a dry erase board.  He does better with color (CLE has little color) and with larger body movement for retention.   I write the review problems on the board the night before so he can do those while I am working with his sister.  Then we work together on whatever new concept was introduced in the CLE lesson.  He does any remaining practice problems for the new stuff with me sitting nearby doing other things.  That way if he has questions, I am readily available but I'm not hovering.  

 

I love CLE because it is written to the student, reviews lots of different things in a lesson so there aren't 40 zillion problems that are similar, and it is easy to accelerate or slow down.  DS usually does two lessons a day in CLE.  I just cross out some of the review problems.

 

He does AoPS on Tuesdays and Thursdays.  We also sometimes do a short math lesson or math games on Saturday, sometimes using other sources and sometimes CLE and sometimes just math games.  DS has asked us to start doing some AoPS on Saturdays but we haven't started that yet.  I don't try to link CLE and AoPS since they are so different.   I do try to make sure that whatever we are doing in AoPS he has already reviewed in CLE or on Khan Academy (yeah, he also does Khan Academy just for some fun practice on the side, but I also do targeted lessons on there if we are coming up to something that I think he needs more review of or a different way of presenting it).

 

I don't see why you couldn't start him out in AoPS PA, but maybe rotate in Saxon a couple of times a week for more spiral review.   What level of Saxon would you be using?

[MaeFlowers]

Wow! Your ds must love math. My ds is more like your DD, he likes autonomy and prefers to work alone for the most part. Plus, it is easier for him to work in his room with DD. She's just too in his face.

As for the Saxon book...I don't know. The problem I have had with Saxon somewhat lies in their placement tests. When I first gave him the test at the end of 3rd he tested into 6/5. But, when we started on 6/5, it was about 60% review for him. I love the spiral approach. It works the best for him but across books, the review is too much. He just doesn't need it. I am going to have to pull the Saxon books back out and dig through to see what he needs from each.

I like your plan, though. I think I may use Saxon for his spine and move him slowwwwly into aops. I'm not sure he is ready for it fulll time.

Thank you for taking the time. 😊

[OneStepAtATime]

Actually, DS doesn't really love math, but he hates struggling and he was struggling.  So he is tackling it.  He likes AoPS because those are our math discussion days.  He LOVES a good discussion, regardless of topic.  :)

 

I was thinking about your situation some more.  How easy is it to cut out SOME of the Saxon review?  I can do it pretty easily in CLE but I can't remember with Saxon.  And we weren't in as high a level as you are when we stopped using it.  Could you maybe cut out some review, double up the lessons (but with the lessons slimmed down so there aren't too many problems) and move him through more rapidly?  While still using AoPS on alternate days or just 1-2 days a week?

[MaeFlowers]

I'm on my phone and don't know how to quote but I think I am going to have to do what's in your second paragraph. I found all of the books online and they are in PDF form so I will just have to read through the chapters, extract the ones he needs, and build a new book. Fun, right?

[OneStepAtATime]

Good luck! I hope it works out well and isnt too much of a pain. :)

[Roadrunner]

AoPS preA doesn't require another text. There is more than enough material there. I don't understand why you would want to add Saxon to it. That would be unnecessarily huge load on a student. Saxon has its audience, AoPS has its own audience. I would just pick one and trust it will do the job.

PreA is considerably more difficult than Beast. There is also SM middle school math, which is very rigorous. I think SM is for kids who are very good at math, but AoPS is for kids who truly love math. I would just let the student try it for couple of weeks and then make a decision based on their input. 

[OneStepAtATime]

AoPS preA doesn't require another text. There is more than enough material there. I don't understand why you would want to add Saxon to it. That would be unnecessarily huge load on a student. Saxon has its audience, AoPS has its own audience. I would just pick one and trust it will do the job.

PreA is considerably more difficult than Beast. There is also SM middle school math, which is very rigorous. I think SM is for kids who are very good at math, but AoPS is for kids who truly love math. I would just let the student try it for couple of weeks and then make a decision based on their input.

I think she was doing Saxon to add in spiral review. We do CLE for the same reason, the spiral review for retention but have started AoPS because DS also wants to think and discuss. Different programs that provide different things but I think some kids need a bit of both, KWIM? :)

 

I do agree using both in their entirety would probably be overkill for most kids.

[MaeFlowers]

AoPS preA doesn't require another text. There is more than enough material there. I don't understand why you would want to add Saxon to it. That would be unnecessarily huge load on a student. Saxon has its audience, AoPS has its own audience. I would just pick one and trust it will do the job.

PreA is considerably more difficult than Beast. There is also SM middle school math, which is very rigorous. I think SM is for kids who are very good at math, but AoPS is for kids who truly love math. I would just let the student try it for couple of weeks and then make a decision based on their input.

I recognize that AoPS would work fine alone, I am most concerned that he isn't ready for it maturity wise. I am afraid he will be frustrated by the reading and the fact that it takes more effort. He just wants to get it done and over with each day. I was thinking of using Saxon as his main program and AoPS on the side to ease him into the format. I would not increase his workload because I would still only require the same amount of work each day. I will probably also skip half the material on Saxon (stuff he already knows).

I'm not in any hurry. The first year ds was home, I felt the pressure to get things done. Now, I'm much more relaxed and we meander through things a bit more. He's only going into 5th. But, he is interested in a stem career and I want him to have a very solid background in math.

[Arcadia]

 Different programs that provide different things but I think some kids need a bit of both, KWIM? :)

 

I agree. Some kids also need to build up speed for timed tests in the future so it could be Saxon and/or it could be test prep materials. My kids take their own sweet time to complete their AoPS work while they won't have the luxury of time for ACT or SAT.

[MaeFlowers]

AoPS preA doesn't require another text. There is more than enough material there. I don't understand why you would want to add Saxon to it. That would be unnecessarily huge load on a student. Saxon has its audience, AoPS has its own audience. I would just pick one and trust it will do the job.

PreA is considerably more difficult than Beast. There is also SM middle school math, which is very rigorous. I think SM is for kids who are very good at math, but AoPS is for kids who truly love math. I would just let the student try it for couple of weeks and then make a decision based on their input.

I recognize that AoPS would work fine alone, I am most concerned that he isn't ready for it maturity wise. I am afraid he will be frustrated by the reading and the fact that it takes more effort. He just wants to get it done and over with each day. I was thinking of using Saxon as his main program and AoPS on the side to ease him into the format. I would not increase his workload because I would still only require the same amount of work each day. I will probably also skip half the material on Saxon (stuff he already knows).

I'm not in any hurry. The first year ds was home, I felt the pressure to get things done. Now, I'm much more relaxed and we meander through things a bit more. He's only going into 5th. But, he is interested in a stem career and I want him to have a very solid background in math.

[MaeFlowers]

AoPS preA doesn't require another text. There is more than enough material there. I don't understand why you would want to add Saxon to it. That would be unnecessarily huge load on a student. Saxon has its audience, AoPS has its own audience. I would just pick one and trust it will do the job.

PreA is considerably more difficult than Beast. There is also SM middle school math, which is very rigorous. I think SM is for kids who are very good at math, but AoPS is for kids who truly love math. I would just let the student try it for couple of weeks and then make a decision based on their input.

I recognize that AoPS would work fine alone, I am most concerned that he isn't ready for it maturity wise. I am afraid he will be frustrated by the reading and the fact that it takes more effort. He just wants to get it done and over with each day. I was thinking of using Saxon as his main program and AoPS on the side to ease him into the format. I would not increase his workload because I would still only require the same amount of work each day. I will probably also skip half the material on Saxon (stuff he already knows).

I'm not in any hurry. The first year ds was home, I felt the pressure to get things done. Now, I'm much more relaxed and we meander through things a bit more. He's only going into 5th. But, he is interested in a stem career and I want him to have a very solid background in math.

[MaeFlowers]

Oops. I am on my phone and somehow posted three times. 😨

[Arcadia]

. I am afraid he will be frustrated by the reading and the fact that it takes more effort. He just wants to get it done and over with each day.

 

I set the work amount for about an hour when we did the prealgebra book. If my kids don't get distracted talking to each other, they can get it done in an hour or less. We school year round though as my younger boy also gets hay fever like me so we need to buffer in sick time.

 

You can get an Alcumus account for your son for extra practice. My 4th and 5th graders have their own accounts.

[MaeFlowers]

I'm planning on about 45 minutes per day. That might even be too much with his adhd. I signed up for alcumus this week but am still waiting to hear from them because of the consent form. I am curious to see what alcumus actually is.

[Roadrunner]

DS spends 1.5 hours a day (no weekends and we take a break in the summer) on preA. He does get distracted, but he doesn't struggle at all with the program. We only help on starred problems, and he isn't particularly a slow one either. I guess that's why I am having a hard time imagining another program alongside this one. We thought about supplementing with SM, but decided it wasn't going to add anything but time.

I also think preA material might not need repetition. Algebra  book reviews much in the first four chapters. Geometry chapters will get another treatment in Geometry and so on. 

 

My wish is to observe in silence many homeschooling families. :D  I want to know how you all do it in 45 minutes! 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I might consider a completely different option.  I suppose it is possible you won't find a perfect math book, but those two in particular are too much together. 

[MaeFlowers]

DS spends 1.5 hours a day (no weekends and we take a break in the summer) on preA. He does get distracted, but he doesn't struggle at all with the program. We only help on starred problems, and he isn't particularly a slow one either. I guess that's why I am having a hard time imagining another program alongside this one. We thought about supplementing with SM, but decided it wasn't going to add anything but time.

I also think preA material might not need repetition. Algebra book reviews much in the first four chapters. Geometry chapters will get another treatment in Geometry and so on.

 

My wish is to observe in silence many homeschooling families. :D I want to know how you all do it in 45 minutes!

I see what you are saying. Everyone makes such great arguments one way or the other, it's difficult to decide. Ultimately, I am going to have to just wait and see how he reacts to AoPS.

As for the 45 minutes...it is dependent on the program we use. With MM, I had to set a fixed time. Usually, it was one 30 minute session or two 20 minute sessions because each lesson had a different amount of problems. With Saxon, it was usually one lesson per day. Depending on how attentive he is each day, it takes anywhere from 20-45 minutes. Because of the format of AoPS, I will have to set it up by time and not lesson. 45 minutes is probably the Max amount of time before his math brain shuts down for the day. After that, it's futile.

[MaeFlowers]

I might consider a completely different option. I suppose it is possible you won't find a perfect math book, but those two in particular are too much together.

Why, in particular, do you feel like these two are too much?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why, in particular, do you feel like these two are too much?

 

Saxon gives 100,000 problems.  The idea is to practice the various concepts over and over and over and then these bits and pieces start to come together over time.  I don't believe one has to do all of the problems for that to work, but I do think they need to commit to doing many of the problems.  Then AoPS gives very few problems, but they tend to be very time consuming problems.  It just seems like too much to me.

 

I started off with AoPS.  We did half of Pre A and half of A 1.  I wanted to make it work, but it just didn't.  Math became a very tedious and frustrating thing for my kid and he had always liked math.  So it didn't feel right.  But I do like AoPS.  So we went over to Saxon which has turned out to be a very good fit for him.  I wanted to add in some challenge so I bought the test prep books from AoPS and use some of the problems from that book.  It's a much thinner book, but still covers a lot of the concepts. 

 

He's over half done in Saxon Algebra 2.  To satisfy my curiosity, I sometimes have given him some AoPS problems to see if he could do them.  He can.  So he is learning using Saxon.  Some people make Saxon sound fluffy and light on conceptual.  I don't think so.  I think the main difference is they don't just constantly try to trick you and they teach the concept rather than make you imagine what it is.  Some people like doing that.  Some don't.  Different strokes... 

 

Of course this is just my opinion.  It might work for you.  I just think if you aren't mostly satisfied with one or the other, maybe explore a third option. 

[MaeFlowers]

Thanks. I agree with you, Saxon is a great program and I believe it would stand fine on its own. However, ds just skates through it. I want him to be challenged. That's why I was thinking about doing both. Maybe alternating days or even AoPS once per week. I am afraid he would hit a wall with AoPS as his main book or burnout or something. Does that make sense? I want to challenge him but not overwhelm him.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Thanks. I agree with you, Saxon is a great program and I believe it would stand fine on its own. However, ds just skates through it. I want him to be challenged. That's why I was thinking about doing both. Maybe alternating days or even AoPS once per week. I am afraid he would hit a wall with AoPS as his main book or burnout or something. Does that make sense? I want to challenge him but not overwhelm him.

 

The AoPS books are quite thick.  Even alternating would take a lot of time. 

 

It definitely makes sense.  I have the same exact concerns.  I want to offer some challenge, but I don't want my kid to end up hating math.  Picking a book that lots of people recommend and swoon over isn't a hill for me to die on.  I've come to terms with it. LOL

 

Another option is to just find something else other than AoPS to add in some challenge problems.  I don't have specific recommendations, but others out there might.

[OneStepAtATime]

MaeFlowers, your child is 10.  There is plenty of time to get through math.  You can easily do Saxon at a more normal pace and AoPS PA at a bit slower pace if you think it would be an interesting path to try out.   As you suggested, alternating days or AoPS PA once or twice a week, just for something different, a bit more challenging might work really well.  You already own both, right?  So just try it out.  See how it goes.

 

Or do as Sparkly suggested and seek out something that covers both spiral review and procedural practice plus deeper challenges.  Not sure what that would be but maybe someone else will share....

 

FWIW, CLE with AoPS has so far been a good mix, which is what I am basing my suggestion of rotating the two on, but we have only just really started down this path.  I'll let you know if anything comes up that might be important to you one way or another....

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh 10.  Well I think AoPS might particularly NOT be a good fit for a 10 year old.  I started mine early too and I think part of the problem was the format didn't work for him possibly because he was younger.  He didn't have the patience to work through frustration. 

 

But since you do have more time, your idea makes more sense.