Serious Latin...

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I've been debating on Latin for ages... Should I or shouldn't I?

 

What I dislike is when I look at possible sequences for Latin and see recommendations to start this or that "fun" beginning Latin, followed by this or that "children's" beginning and intermediate Latin, followed by yet ANOTHER beginning Latin, until finally the kid is "ready" to move into this or that high school/college introductory text. Why not just hold off until the child is ready to actually start the real text? Why all the repetition? It just seems terribly inefficient.

 

Am I missing something? Is there any compelling reason NOT to put Latin off until a child can use an upper level text?

[wapiti]

I agree with you, especially about efficiency.

[8filltheheart]

I am in the "no" camp for kiddie Latin. My experience is that it just drags out what can be accomplished more quickly when they are older. I am now firmly in around "6thish" grade camp.   I just wrote about this in another thread.   :)  

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/550794-why-teach-latin/?p=6339530

[happypamama]

I agree with you, mostly. I wait until they are reading well, and then we start with GSWL, which is introductory, but not children's Latin. Then when we finish that, we go on to the third Level of Latin's Not So Tough. We skip Levels 1 and 2 of that because we want to get into new stuff without so much review. There IS some review in Level 3, but it's not starting all the way from scratch. I'm currently trying to decide what to use after we finish the last level of LNST next year, because I don't want to start straight back at the beginning.

 

But, review is good. Some kids need more than others. And there is something to be said for living with a language and really internalizing its basics, and for having positive happy feelings about it. So for those reasons, I can see starting early with "fun" sorts of Latin. Latin is a favorite subject in my household.

[Penguin]

We did Getting Started with Latin in 7th.  It was fun. 

Latin 1 with Latin for the New Millennium (LNM) in 8th. He loves it.

He is on track to take AP Latin in 11th.  Good enough for me!

 

I am very glad that we did Rod and Staff grammar in middle school.  I always read about using Latin grammar in the early years to learn English grammar, but for us it ran the opposite direction. The English grammar paved the way for the Latin grammar.

[jaderbee]

I posted yesterday that we're "getting serious" with Latin next year as my eldest moves into LFC. Why did we do silly Latin the last two years? It was fun and I want her to associate learning a new language with fun. I'm sure learning Latin won't always be fun. However, SSL is like the phase when kids trace letters in rice, sing nursery rhymes, or cut copious amounts of paper to build up language and fine motor skills for real writing, reading, or crafting skills later on. Fun foundation laying for later building. I'm only at the the beginning of the Latin journey so grain of salt and all that. :)

[Tranquility7]

We start Latin very early in our house, but we skip all the "fun" children's Latin programs. I just think they are too basic and repetitive and I question the benefit for the time spent. Once my kids are good readers and have the basics of English Grammar (all parts of speech and parts of the sentence (subj, pred, DO, IO, etc.)) we start Latin. I use Getting Started With Latin first, and then jump into Lingua Latina. We sometimes use Latin Alive for additional explicit grammar instruction. We do vocab and grammar review using Anki several times a week (this is critical for us).

 

DS is now 8 and he is on ch 15 of Lingua Latina (which has been a lot of work, believe me - Lingua Latina is a college text), but he has an excellent foundation in Latin and is way beyond where he would be in grammar and vocab (not to mention reading) using any children's program out there. AND - he loves it! Not because there are lots of games and bells and whistles (there are none), but because it is inherently fun to be able to read in another language (especially when Daddy can't, LOL!).

 

So anyway, I agree with skipping the early Latin programs, but I don't think that means you can't still start Latin early, if that is what you want to do. Back in the day kids were expected to have masterd Latin grammar by the time they were 13ish... that is my goal for my kids, so that they can be reading original texts in Latin throughout high school. I was pretty halfhearted and noncommittal when we started, but have found the benefits of Latin to be tremendous for us, and now I'm an official Latin nut.

[TKDmom]

I am in the "no" camp for kiddie Latin. My experience is that it just drags out what can be accomplished more quickly when they are older. I am now firmly in around "6thish" grade camp.   I just wrote about this in another thread.   :)  

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/550794-why-teach-latin/?p=6339530

 

I think that's where I am now, too. None of my kids want to do Latin, though. What do you use when you do start?

 

DD13 asked me this week if I was ever going to make her do Latin again.  :rolleyes: Sigh..probably not? I want her to do Latin, but not over her screams. And she is already doing high school Spanish. I made the mistake a a few different beginner programs and she was burned out by 6th grade.

 

DS11 has declared that he will never do Latin, but he starts 6th grade next year...

 

DS9 just goes along with whatever I want. We are slowly going through GSWL, to give him some exposure. Then we will start MP First Form Latin and go at his pace. 

 

It's funny, but despite their adamant positions that they won't learn Latin (or any foreign language in the case of my 11yo), they were discussing Latin and Spanish derivations last week. We were out picking blueberries for a couple hours and they got talking about different words and what parts of them sound like different Latin and Spanish words. So I guess there is still some hope for my kids.  ;)

[Halcyon]

My older did a year of GSWL and then moved quickly into Henle in 5th. He also did a semester of Lone Pine Latin--very hard but excellent. He is now doing Wheelocks, skimming the first 10 chapters as review. 

 

We love Latin here, so I would say just move into Henle or LNM in 5th if you want to avoid the kiddie stuff. 

I've been debating on Latin for ages... Should I or shouldn't I?

 

What I dislike is when I look at possible sequences for Latin and see recommendations to start this or that "fun" beginning Latin, followed by this or that "children's" beginning and intermediate Latin, followed by yet ANOTHER beginning Latin, until finally the kid is "ready" to move into this or that high school/college introductory text. Why not just hold off until the child is ready to actually start the real text? Why all the repetition? It just seems terribly inefficient.

 

Am I missing something? Is there any compelling reason NOT to put Latin off until a child can use an upper level text?

 

I totally and completely agree with your position here.

 

I would point out that while I would always start with a high school text, there's no need to wait until 9th grade to do so -- many middle schoolers are ready for this kind of work.

[yvonne]

I bought Minimus intending to use it in 2nd grade, but couldn't bring myself to do it. Even then I thought "Why bother?" I'm so glad we didn't get bother with Latin earlier than 4th grade. Not only would it have been completely unnecessary, but it would also have burned us all out on Latin before we got to the "good stuff."

 

My three started with Latin for Children A in 4th grade and LfC B in 5th. My boys did about a third of LfC C in 6th; my daughter did no Latin in 6th. (Started Latin Alive but it was a flop. Might have been more the teacher than the text that flopped, though.)  They all went on to Wheelock's in 7th with VP/Lukeion. 

 

The LfC A-B turned out to be excellent, and more than enough, preparation for Wheelock's. Doing LfC C would have been a waste of a year for kids who had the maturity and self-discipline to start a high school level text like Wheelock's.

 

If I had another child coming up, I would probably still do LfC A & B in 4th and 5th and then move to Latin 1/Wheelock's in 6th so that the child would be on track to wrap up AP Latin in 9th grade. I don't see any point to starting Latin before 4th grade at the earliest. It would probably work almost as well to wait until 7th or 8th and jump directly into Wheelock's, assuming the child has a strong foundation in grammar and is a diligent worker.

 

[JDoe]

I bought Minimus intending to use it in 2nd grade, but couldn't bring myself to do it. Even then I thought "Why bother?" I'm so glad we didn't get bother with Latin earlier than 4th grade. Not only would it have been completely unnecessary, but it would also have burned us all out on Latin before we got to the "good stuff."

 

I disagree on the Minimus, no burnout on that one I think would be possible, unless one attempt to convey the same content as Wheelock's through Minimus.

 

Now plugging away on Lingua Latina and Athenaze (Greek).

[Georgiana Daniels]

We started with SSL, then moved to Minimus, LL, and now finishing up Minimus Secondus. So yes, kiddie Latin worked well for us because now reading/translating Latin is second nature. No arguing, cajoling or struggling--it's just what we do :)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Thank you for all the replies!  I feel better about holding off until middle school!!!  And I like some of the listed resources that I wasn't familiar with- thank you!

 

 

 

I am in the "no" camp for kiddie Latin. My experience is that it just drags out what can be accomplished more quickly when they are older. I am now firmly in around "6thish" grade camp.   I just wrote about this in another thread.   :)  

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/550794-why-teach-latin/?p=6339530

 

Thanks for the link!  I missed this thread somehow.
 

[SnMomof7]

Kiddie Latin flopped here. Too much other stuff to learn before 6th grade! Of course...we haven't picked it back up, but DD would like to. I have done som of First Form Latin and liked it, particularly if you have some English grammar wind in your sails.

[yvonne]

I disagree on the Minimus, no burnout on that one I think would be possible, unless one attempt to convey the same content as Wheelock's through Minimus.

 

Now plugging away on Lingua Latina and Athenaze (Greek).

 

I meant that if I had started with Minimus and SSL and ... countless other Latin for young children programs in 2nd grade and 3rd grade and then GSWL as a more solid beginning when the kids hit 4th or so and then LfC A in 5th or so..... we'd all have been tired of it.

 

("My name is yvonne and I'm a curricula junkie. I have every Latin program known to man, kiddie through college, on my bookshelves. Still. Because you just never know...."  LOL  I am so pathetic.)

[KrissiK]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "kiddie" Latin or "fun" Latin. We start Latin in 3rd grade with Prima Latina. Now that I have my third kid coming through the program, I have discovered the importance of starting at a relatively young age. To me it's not "kiddie Latin", it's starting to build a solid foundation. I wouldn't start before third grade, but IMO, for Latin to not become too difficult or too much of a drudgery, it should be gently applied in many layers over a long period of time. That way it becomes ingrained without too much effort. A little bit, every day, as PL and LC1 do, helps the vocabulary become cemented. And then, when they start serious Latin Grammar in First Form they aren't struggling with the vocabulary as well.

[Targhee]

I've been debating on Latin for ages... Should I or shouldn't I?

 

What I dislike is when I look at possible sequences for Latin and see recommendations to start this or that "fun" beginning Latin, followed by this or that "children's" beginning and intermediate Latin, followed by yet ANOTHER beginning Latin, until finally the kid is "ready" to move into this or that high school/college introductory text. Why not just hold off until the child is ready to actually start the real text? Why all the repetition? It just seems terribly inefficient.

 

Am I missing something? Is there any compelling reason NOT to put Latin off until a child can use an upper level text?

I feel very much the same about English composition.

 

We did have dd8 do SSL this year, only because I was "selling" my kids on Latin. We all started with GSWL, which was too slow for oldest dd, and too fast for youngest. Ds stuck with GSWL (very well matched to his needs, and he loves it), while older moved on the LP (the humor was enough of a hook for her, and now she enjoys Latin for latin's sake), and younger got to "play" with Latin (I just let her work on the workbook and singing, play games, etc, no hard study). Next year DS will start Henle, and oldest DD will keep going with LP (Maybe start Wheelocks in 9th?), and both will do some reading and roman history/culture with Cambridge and Famous Men of Rome. Dd8 will probably not do Latin again until 4th or 5th grade. My efforts with her are still in spelling and primary language skills.

[ALB]

My kids have each started with Prima Latina in 2nd grade, which I don't think is "silly" or necessarily all that fun.  It is a gentle introduction, and definitely smoothed the transition to Latina Christiana and then First Form Latin.  While you can start with any of those as beginner programs later on, I am so glad that we began laying the foundation early.  It helps for kids to be familiar with the basics of how the language works before getting into more difficult exercises.

 

For us Latin is extremely important.  I spent a lot of time researching it over the last several years and came to the conclusion that not only do I want us to learn Latin, but I want it to be a core subject, like math and language arts.  I think that emphasizing it early on sends the message that this is non-negotiable and worthwhile.  It's also lots of fun, and means we'll get to the more interesting work of actual translation that much quicker.  

 

I also think my kids are already benefiting from the mental workout that Latin provides every day.  They have been learning Mandarin Chinese for years as well (since we've been living in China), but Latin is just so much better at teaching them to analyze grammar, think critically, and understand the historical and linguistic background of our culture.

[cintinative]

I just listened to a talk by Christopher Perrin on why to study Latin today, so if I can sort of summarize, these are some benefits for any age:

 

1. Learning Latin assists in the understanding of grammar and therefore assists English grammar

2. Learning Latin assists in understanding the meaning of words (except those of Anglo-Saxon origins) and thus assists in vocabulary (no vocabulary curriculum needed)

3. Learning Latin provides something to "decode" so it assists in thinking skills. The older they get the harder the material they can try to read in Latin.

4. Learning Latin makes learning other romance languages (especially Spanish and Italian) much much easier

5. Because many scientific terms (medical, biological, taxonomy, etc.) come from Latin, it assists in those careers if pursued and/or coursework at the high school/college level

 

 

 

I'm still working through Martin Cochran's talk on the same subject but his premise so far is that most of what is today termed "critical thinking skills" can be found through the study of liberal arts including a study of Latin. 

 

Both of these people are affiliated with companies that sell Latin curriculum, so take this with a grain of salt.  =)  Just thought I'd share.