Why teach Latin

[athomeontheprairie]

What are the benefits of teaching your kids Latin? If you've done it for awhile, how has it helped them?

This is something I'm considering, but I don't really know what I want the end goal to be. I'd like them to easily recognize common roots that find their way into the English language. To be able to quickly intuit the meaning of a word they do not know because they are able to recognize the parts that the word is made up of. I hope that makes sense! Is a study of Latin helpful in this sense? Should I be looking at something else? (This is for my rising 5th grader, btw.) If a study of Latin will do what I describe (and hopefully more, please enlighten me!) what programs are out there that are really great? I need something that isn't super parent intensive. We already have a full load going for next year, and while she still has time for one last subject, I don't have a lot of time to give to it. So be honest, if it needs a lot of parent time please be up front and tell me to pass. If I need to give up the idea of Latin, can you recommend a workbook that helps teach basic roots that is mostly independent?

Thanks!

 

[wapiti]

A list of older tagged threads on this topic http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/tags/forums/why%2Blatin%253F/

 

For an introduction to the language, GSWL is awesome, inexpensive, and not time consuming.

[SebastianCat]

My DS asked if he could learn Latin in 6th grade.  I think several of his friends had been studying Latin as part of Classical Conversations and he felt left out.  :)  I also needed something that wasn't parent intensive and not so rigorous that it would kill his desire to learn.    We chose GSWL and it was a great choice.   He did GSWL in 6th, then Visual Latin I in 7th and will do Visual Latin II in 8th.   GSWL is a simple workbook and there are short audio lectures to listen to after doing each day's lesson.   Visual Latin is a DVD program with worksheets.

 

I do see benefits from his studying Latin.   His vocabulary and understanding of English grammar improved greatly, although he wasn't weak in those areas to begin with.   What surprised me was that Latin actually helped some with his spelling, which was one of his weaker areas.   I think studying Latin in middle school puts him in an excellent position to start high school foreign language in 9th  grade.  He can easily switch to Spanish or just continue with Latin in high school, since he has a good foundation.

 

I will have my DD, who will be in 6th grade in the fall, repeat the same cycle for Latin in middle school - GSWL in 6th, followed by 2 years of Visual Latin in 7th and 8th.

[purduemeche]

Some additional benefits we have seen are providing a link to the foundational culture of the Christian West (Rome). Memorial Press does a nice job incorporating this along with the grammar.

[FO4UR]

If you are not going to study Latin with the intention of reading in Latin....Cicero by the fireside on cold evenings...then give yourself permission to pass on Latin.

 

 

There are many utilitarian reasons for studying Latin, but they can all be found through other subjects. I will say that I think Latin is efficient.  If you are studying Latin whole-hog, you can safely drop grammar/vocab/critical thinking from the schedule, freeing up time to focus on Latin itself. Still, if your goal isn't to read in Latin, then you may find that this efficiency isn't easy or simple, especially if you don't know enough Latin yourself.

 

 

That said, it doesn't hurt to do a simple introduction (GSWL is great!) and see how your child takes to it.  You may not know if your child is going to be a Classical Language enthusiast until you let them jump in and try it.

[mom2att]

If you are not going to study Latin with the intention of reading in Latin....Cicero by the fireside on cold evenings...then give yourself permission to pass on Latin.

 

This was never my goal in having my children study Latin, yet I'm glad we took the time to do it. The introduction of new vocabulary through its Latin root, the reinforcement of English grammar via the study of declensions and conjugations, the exercise of memorization of all those declensions and conjugations, and the introduction of an ancient culture have all been beneficial and worthy of study. But my main reason for spending time with Latin was to help my children transition to a modern language. My daughter eased into Spanish in middle school after the early years of studying Latin. I hope the same will be true for my sons. I am not fluent in a second language, so my ability to teach a modern, spoken language is nil. But with a solid Latin program my ability to teach the basics of language study through an ancient language that helps prepare them for modern language study is adequate, and as a bonus I'VE learned much in the process.  I see our years of Latin study as time well spent. My middle son really enjoys the success he has with it. No, he'll never read Cicero, but the foundation for future language study has been laid, as have the reinforcements of other areas of learning, through Latin.

[8filltheheart]

I used to be in the no need to study Latin group.  I was really convinced it was a nice bonus.  My #4 and #5 kids are the ones who convinced me I was wrong. They believe Latin should be a core part of our curriculum.  They were so persuasive that now it is.  :)  Latin helps with logical thinking, analytical skills, grammar, and understanding how language functions.  These 2 are by far much stronger students than their older siblings that I see the fruits of their Latin labors across their academic performance.

 

FWIW, I am not an advocate of Latin at young ages.  I have muddled my way around trying to find my happy spot in what I believe about when to start Latin (hey, one of the advantages of 8 kids is that eventually you do figure things out by so many mistakes!! ;) ) and I have decided that 6th/7th grades are the best starting point for us.  Latin when they are younger consumes more time for marginal progress.  Waiting means they master the same amt of material in way less time and are able to make real progress forward.  My current goals for my younger kids is to finish Latin grammar in 3 yrs either in middle school or 7th-9th followed by 1 yr of Latin poetry.  (Latin poetry was a huge mental exercise for dd.  She found it challenging, but it was a mental workout in a good way.)

 

For this dd, Russian has been so much easier b/c she has such a firm grasp of grammar.  For my older ds, he is a very logical thinking.  He loved the orderly logic to Latin grammar. 

 

They sold me.  :)

[chiguirre]

 I'd like them to easily recognize common roots that find their way into the English language. To be able to quickly intuit the meaning of a word they do not know because they are able to recognize the parts that the word is made up of. I hope that makes sense! Is a study of Latin helpful in this sense? Should I be looking at something else?

IMHO, you'll get what you're looking for from using Michael Clay Thompson's grammar and vocabulary programs. The writing and poetry books will round that out, but the meat of what you need is in those two parts. As an added bonus, you'll get a lot of exposure to Greek and Latin antiquity. I'd also recommend choosing a Romance language to fulfill your foreign language requirements. That will highlight how much English vocabulary comes from Latin roots and improve their ability to intuit word meanings.

 

 I am not fluent in a second language, so my ability to teach a modern, spoken language is nil. But with a solid Latin program my ability to teach the basics of language study through an ancient language that helps prepare them for modern language study is adequate, and as a bonus I'VE learned much in the process. 

I completely agree with this. You can teach Latin using MP's or CAP's books without knowing Latin well. The videos and teacher helps make this doable. There is nothing comparable for teaching a modern language.

 

I used to be in the no need to study Latin group.  I was really convinced it was a nice bonus.  My #4 and #5 kids are the ones who convinced me I was wrong. They believe Latin should be a core part of our curriculum.  They were so persuasive that now it is.   :)  Latin helps with logical thinking, analytical skills, grammar, and understanding how language functions.  These 2 are by far much stronger students than their older siblings that I see the fruits of their Latin labors across their academic performance.

There is something about spotting case usages that trains the brain. I was a skeptic, but I have to agree with 8 about this. Picking apart a Latin sentence to figure out how each word is being used and why is an excellent exercise in patience, fortitude and perseverance too.

[wapiti]

There is something about spotting case usages that trains the brain. I was a skeptic, but I have to agree with 8 about this. Picking apart a Latin sentence to figure out how each word is being used and why is an excellent exercise in patience, fortitude and perseverance too.

 

To add to this, the grammar of an inflected language is more systematic than the grammar of non-inflected foreign languages and may provide a perspective on English that is more useful for certain types of students.

 

FWIW, my dd had some Latin while homeschooling around 5th grade (GSWL followed by about a third of Henle).  Then she took Spanish in B&M middle school.  She has decided to return to Latin when she starts at B&M high school in the fall.  I share dd's preference; maybe it's a visual-thinker thing.

[Critterfixer]

There are so many benefits I'm not sure where to start. Aside from the vocabulary skills gained, and the free grammar lesson that comes with learning Latin, there are a few other things I've noticed.

 

1) Study skills opportunity

We study our Latin together. Because of that, I have been able to demonstrate what is needed to study a language, I have figured out how different my boys are in their ability to retain, and we now are accustomed to sitting down every other evening or so to study our index cards we made for each of our lessons.

 

2)Problem solving

I am convinced that Latin is a wonderful first Logic lesson. Attacking a simple Latin translation implies that you come up with a good way to take the sentence apart, analyse it, translate it, then reconstruct it. 

 

3)Confidence in language

Words learned in Latin show up in speech and writing. Sometimes in odd ways, I'll grant you. One of my boys has a stuffed animal named Multus. We also have a dragon named Albus. The point is, that Latin is just full of cool sounding words. Moreover, they are easy to figure out by decoding. They sound good together. They boys have figured out, at a young age, that language sounds best when you pay attention to the construction of your sentence. They played with their Latin. Now they play with their writing, and composition has seen a boost from the power words have on their imagination.

 

The cons would be the time it takes to study Latin. We spend close to an hour a day, five days a week. Latin takes up about a 15 minute study session a few evenings a week. It is our only foreign language to this point. The boys are eager to begin French, and I don't quite know how I will handle structuring the day to include a modern foreign language. I'm sure I'll find a way. 

Latin is challenging. I have to study it right alongside the boys. I've had the boys actually call me out when I'm teaching because I messed it up. It's quite the humbling language. My boys don't find it delightful every day. Sometimes it gets more complaints than math because it's hard! Translation days in particular call for scaling back any tough composition work because we are mentally fatigued when we are done. That's not a problem, but I have to remember that and plan for it.

One could even argue that all the cons have actually made me more attentive to what my students need and how I can help them succeed. They might be pros after all.  :laugh:

 

[happypamama]

I first started teaching Latin (which I'm also learning from scratch right alongside them) when DD was in third grade and asking to learn Latin like girls she'd read about in books. I wouldn't have started it that young, but she really wanted to, so we got gswl and took it slowly. She loves Latin!

 

Do I think we could have accomplished the same stuff faster and more efficiently if we'd waited a few years? Yep. Do I care? Nope. We followed her interests. The things she is getting from Latin aren't necessarily about the grammar and ability to read Cicero, although those are interesting. No, I consider it at least as important, if not more so, that she got some necessary organizational skills from studying Latin. Learning to break something down into small pieces, learning to follow a process, the discipline of frequent and continual study -- I saw those skills carry over into math. (Yes, you can accomplish the same skills in other ways; Latin happened to be the right one for us.) And maybe the very best thing: DD and I are very different in tastes; we like different books, different music, different hobbies. We both, however, love languages (and babies, LOL). I don't care if she ever learns to read Cicero, ultimately, but for that time, a couple of times a week, for several years, where DD and I bent our heads over a Latin book together, learning, puzzling, groaning (really, why do the poets in gswl never have writing tablets?!), and giggling -- I'm not going to look back in ten years and say I'd trade that time for more efficient Latin study.

 

(Ymmv, of course. But that was the right way to go about it for my DD. My fourth grader is finishing up gswl; we shall see if he follows a similar path or not.)

[FO4UR]

This was never my goal in having my children study Latin, yet I'm glad we took the time to do it. The introduction of new vocabulary through its Latin root, the reinforcement of English grammar via the study of declensions and conjugations, the exercise of memorization of all those declensions and conjugations, and the introduction of an ancient culture have all been beneficial and worthy of study. But my main reason for spending time with Latin was to help my children transition to a modern language. My daughter eased into Spanish in middle school after the early years of studying Latin. I hope the same will be true for my sons. I am not fluent in a second language, so my ability to teach a modern, spoken language is nil. But with a solid Latin program my ability to teach the basics of language study through an ancient language that helps prepare them for modern language study is adequate, and as a bonus I'VE learned much in the process.  I see our years of Latin study as time well spent. My middle son really enjoys the success he has with it. No, he'll never read Cicero, but the foundation for future language study has been laid, as have the reinforcements of other areas of learning, through Latin.

 

 

I agree with most of those points.  I took Latin in high school, so I know first-hand the edge that even a mediocre Latin education can give.  (I went on to study voice, singing in several Romantic Languages, and I could guess translations with amazing accuracy for having never studied French or Italian. That saved a ton of time in college!)  Still, there is something lost when we learn/teach Latin for the sake of vocab/critical thinking skills/test scores/etc...  If we aren't teaching Latin with the purpose of reading Classic literature in the original Latin, we should seriously reconsider.

 

It's not that Latin isn't worth learning for all of those utilitarian reasons.  It's that it's such a waste to get so close and yet never culminate the study in enjoyment of the Classics.

[Halcyon]

Haven't read all the responses, but we love Latin here. Okay, _I_ love Latin, my older boy likes it and my younger...well, he will learn to love it over time LOL.

 

DS12 has studied Latin, in one form or another, since he was in 3rd grade. He recently resumed after taking about 10 months off to study Spanish, which didn't go particularly well (I think we need a fluent speaker and a group class). DS9 has studied for about a year.

 

It has taught my older persistence, logical thinking, grammar, patience, diligence, note-taking, root words (helpful for the SAT) and so much more.  I highly recommend it. You will need to devote about an hour a day starting in 6th grade, maybe half that in the earlier grades. Frequent review is recommended!

[Halcyon]

Critterfixer said it all much more clearly than I did!!! ITA with her post.

[wintermom]

In addition to the other advantages people have listed, I`ll add the link to history (especially ancient Rome) when studying Latin. The Cambridge Latin Course has a lot of history included in it`s material, which my dc are really enjoying. The vocabulary they`re learning all revolves around the people in ancient Pompeii, their homes, buildings and daily life. It ties in excellently with our SOTW and other readings from Ancient Rome studies.

[Dramorellis]

I agree with most of those points.  I took Latin in high school, so I know first-hand the edge that even a mediocre Latin education can give.  (I went on to study voice, singing in several Romantic Languages, and I could guess translations with amazing accuracy for having never studied French or Italian. That saved a ton of time in college!)  Still, there is something lost when we learn/teach Latin for the sake of vocab/critical thinking skills/test scores/etc...  If we aren't teaching Latin with the purpose of reading Classic literature in the original Latin, we should seriously reconsider.

 

It's not that Latin isn't worth learning for all of those utilitarian reasons.  It's that it's such a waste to get so close and yet never culminate the study in enjoyment of the Classics.

 

I devoted 5 hours a day, 6 days a week to training my body and working skills in gymnastics for 7 years. I never competed at the highest levels, I never would have garnered a scholarship at a top University nor was I anywhere near Elite Olympic levels. Was that time wasted? Was it purposeless? I don't think so. I developed a lot of ancillary skills that have translated into other areas. I am forever grateful that I had those years of study. It is benefiting me still in countless ways even decades later. The type of focused study, scaffolding and language dissection that a student gets from the study of Latin is still worth the effort even if it never progresses to expert level. I see nothing lost in that process unless it is complete misery that it taking away from other pursuits. I even like the fact that it is tedious at times. Working through that is a valuable life skill. The process IS the beauty. I don't think everyone needs or should study Latin. However the probability of not reaching complete fluency should not be a what holds one back. My 8 year old is studying Latin and Greek right now because he thinks it is fun. I am self-educating through Wheelock's on my own after bedtime. I won't ever be reading original works by the fireside but I am finding it tremendously rewarding and I wish it had been an option presented to me as a child.

[shanezomom]

We dabbled in learning Latin in about 4th and 5th grade because it sounded like something we "should do." I was on the fence about the benefits. We didn't get serious until Classical Conversations Challenge A with Henle Latin.I ended up being one of ds's favorite classes along with logic. He is looking forward to translation later on although he's content to keep working through the basics.

 

So one reason for including Latin is that your kids might actually like it!

[mom2att]

It's not that Latin isn't worth learning for all of those utilitarian reasons.  It's that it's such a waste to get so close and yet never culminate the study in enjoyment of the Classics.

Like with anything else, differing educational goals as well as paths to get there are arbitrary. Your "waste" is my tool to advancement in other areas. I might have great math skills, but no desire to study calculus, and that's okay. I guess some might consider this a waste ("but you're so GOOD at math!"), but if it's not my area of interest, what's the point? And while a good foundation in Latin may enable me to go in depth in Classics study, the end is not necessary to justify the means. Sometimes just learning for learning's sake is enough, at least in my opinion.

[Critterfixer]

:blush: I guess one strange benefit of Latin is that I now have a new appreciation for High Elvish. (Big Tolkien fan here.)

[FO4UR]

I devoted 5 hours a day, 6 days a week to training my body and working skills in gymnastics for 7 years. I never competed at the highest levels, I never would have garnered a scholarship at a top University nor was I anywhere near Elite Olympic levels. Was that time wasted? Was it purposeless? I don't think so. I developed a lot of ancillary skills that have translated into other areas. I am forever grateful that I had those years of study. It is benefiting me still in countless ways even decades later. The type of focused study, scaffolding and language dissection that a student gets from the study of Latin is still worth the effort even if it never progresses to expert level. I see nothing lost in that process unless it is complete misery that it taking away from other pursuits. I even like the fact that it is tedious at times. Working through that is a valuable life skill. The process IS the beauty. I don't think everyone needs or should study Latin. However the probability of not reaching complete fluency should not be a what holds one back. My 8 year old is studying Latin and Greek right now because he thinks it is fun. I am self-educating through Wheelock's on my own after bedtime. I won't ever be reading original works by the fireside but I am finding it tremendously rewarding and I wish it had been an option presented to me as a child.

 

 

The OP is asking why do Latin.

 

There are utilitarian reasons.  Then there is learning Latin for the sake of reading Classics in the original language.

 

 

If you are merely hoping for the utility of Latin study, it may not be worth stuffing out an already packed schedule. If continuing on to fluency and enjoyment is even a remote possibility, it may be worth every bit of work. That is all.

 

 

I'm pro-Latin, fwiw.  I like GSWL for the way it gets the student translating with a bit of confidence from the start.  I just think it cheapens the experience to whittle it down to its utilitarian bits and pieces.  It's like learning to swim in the bathtub b/c you find value in overcoming the fear of getting your face wet...Hello!  There is a big wide swimming pool downtown with lots of people to meet...not to mention a wide ocean with a world to explore and enjoy. Is there value in those swimming lessons?  Well, I suppose...but why go to the trouble when you don't plan to ever swim? 

[Corraleno]

Like with anything else, differing educational goals as well as paths to get there are arbitrary. Your "waste" is my tool to advancement in other areas. I might have great math skills, but no desire to study calculus, and that's okay. I guess some might consider this a waste ("but you're so GOOD at math!"), but if it's not my area of interest, what's the point? And while a good foundation in Latin may enable me to go in depth in Classics study, the end is not necessary to justify the means. Sometimes just learning for learning's sake is enough, at least in my opinion.

 

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:

 

 

I'm pro-Latin, fwiw.  I like GSWL for the way it gets the student translating with a bit of confidence from the start.  I just think it cheapens the experience to whittle it down to its utilitarian bits and pieces.  It's like learning to swim in the bathtub b/c you find value in overcoming the fear of getting your face wet...Hello!  There is a big wide swimming pool downtown with lots of people to meet...not to mention a wide ocean with a world to explore and enjoy. Is there value in those swimming lessons?  Well, I suppose...but why go to the trouble when you don't plan to ever swim? 

 

But the bolded statement also "cheapens the experience" of the many benefits relating to logic and analysis and etymology by dismissing them as merely "utilitarian bits and pieces." Having a deep understanding of the underlying structure of language is a skill that can be applied not only to further Latin study but also to the study of English and any other language. The way Latin trains the brain in logic and analysis and problem-solving is applicable to pretty much any other endeavor a student chooses to pursue, whether or not he ever reads more than selected excerpts of the Aeneid.

 

I think the gymnastics analogy and mom2att's math analogy are spot on. Why learn Latin if you don't plan to spend your evenings by the fire reading Cicero? Why learn algebra if you're not planning to continue through calculus? Why learn to play an instrument if you're not planning to join a symphony orchestra? Why take up a sport if you're not planning to compete at a national level?

 

It's because those things have value in their own right, not just as a means to a loftier goal. The process of learning mathematics or a language or an instrument or a sport trains the brain (and/or body) and helps develop important skills and character traits that apply to many other aspects of life. These are valuable things — one might argue that they are even more valuable than the ability to read Cicero.

 

 

 

 

[SeaConquest]

I have been moved by the arguments for Latin, but, playing devil's advocate, why would Latin be preferred to another extremely grammar-intensive, inflected language like Russian? This is a question that I have posed to 8 before, but I am curious if others have thoughts as well. Russian has even more the same number of cases as Latin and, as a modern language in high demand (and with an incredible literary heritage to boot), what advantage does Latin have? (Bonus points because I actually have a degree in Russian.)  

 

ETA: Wiki links comparing Russian vs. Latin grammar:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_grammar

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_grammar

[Bluegoat]

I think I am really in the "to read Latin" camp.  Yes, there can be other advantages, but I think those can be found elsewhere, and some other types of study might be more useful and justify the time spent better if the student isn't going to go far with the Latin. 

 

I would say it is important for students to study a language other than their own if at all possible, for what it can teach them about the nature of language. But always, I think the main reason to study a language is actually to communicate with it in some way.

 

Of course some students may never be able to really do that, and I think that is ok.  But in choosing a language to teach, what could potentially be taught to a higher level would be a significant reason for any choice that I made. 

[wintermom]

 

It's because those things have value in their own right, not just as a means to a loftier goal. The process of learning mathematics or a language or an instrument or a sport trains the brain (and/or body) and helps develop important skills and character traits that apply to many other aspects of life. These are valuable things — one might argue that they are even more valuable than the ability to read Cicero.

 

:iagree:

 

Not to mention that the "utilitarian" skills developed through studying Latin are probably going to be used and reinforced throughout a life-time, whereas the ability to read and understand Cicero is quite likely limited to one's keeping their knowledge of Latin strong enough so they can still understand it.  

 

 

[wapiti]

I have been moved by the arguments for Latin, but, playing devil's advocate, why would Latin be preferred to another extremely grammar-intensive, inflected language like Russian? This is a question that I have posed to 8 before, but I am curious if others have thoughts as well. Russian has even more the same number of cases as Latin and, as a modern language in high demand (and with an incredible literary heritage to boot), what advantage does Latin have?

 

 

FWIW, I think this is an interesting question and I'd guess that my dd might have been swayed if her high school offered Russian.  AFAIK, most high schools don't.  Of course homeschoolers aren't so limited, but outsourcing would seem to be a necessity for Russian due to the speaking component, just as for other modern foreign languages.  Latin, at least in the early years, may be logistically easier to do at home.

 

Russian would be less likely to help with English vocabulary roots.

[wintermom]

I have been moved by the arguments for Latin, but, playing devil's advocate, why would Latin be preferred to another extremely grammar-intensive, inflected language like Russian? 

 

I've studied Ukrainian, which is very similar to Russian. I have to say that the Ukrainian vocabulary doesn't transfer to other languages like Latin does. Latin has roots in so many Romantic languages, as well as English, so those connections can be made instantly and remembered a lot easier. In addition, in order to study Russian I'd have to learn another alphabet just to start learning the language. It's not that hard to do, but it can be a huge stumbling block to those who have never attempted something like this. Learning Mandarin, Japanese, Arabic, etc. all have this immediate hurdle of having to learn a completely different method writing words. It takes a huge amount of motivation to take the plunge and start learning. I've not had the courage to do it.

[SeaConquest]

I've studied Ukrainian, which is very similar to Russian. I have to say that the Ukrainian vocabulary doesn't transfer to other languages like Latin does. Latin has roots in so many Romantic languages, as well as English, so those connections can be made instantly and remembered a lot easier. In addition, in order to study Russian I'd have to learn another alphabet just to start learning the language. It's not that hard to do, but it can be a huge stumbling block to those who have never attempted something like this. Learning Mandarin, Japanese, Arabic, etc. all have this immediate hurdle of having to learn a completely different method writing words. It takes a huge amount of motivation to take the plunge and start learning. I've not had the courage to do it.

 

I hear what you are saying, and I don't mean to derail this thread. But, I have just heard so many excellent reasons for Latin that I think I'd feel remiss if I didn't pursue it. On the other hand, I speak Russian, my husband (and his family) are native French speakers, and my son is already learning Spanish (virtually via osmosis in Southern California) and Hebrew (we are Jewish). As there are only so many hours in the day, I ask myself whether he would be better off studying Russian vs. Latin, especially in light of programs like this: http://www.nsliforyouth.org/. Plus, so many of the Latin roots found in English are reinforced by study of French and Spanish -- two languages he is already learning.

 

I can understand that people are put off by the Cyrillic alphabet, but that doesn't stop many from attempting Greek -- the merits of which can also be debated.

 

Anyway, my oldest is still very young, so it's not like I have to decide this question tonight. But, as I've read through old threads by 8, Ester Maria, and other veteran homeschoolers on this board, I have been mulling this question over in my mind.   

[happypamama]

I have been moved by the arguments for Latin, but, playing devil's advocate, why would Latin be preferred to another extremely grammar-intensive, inflected language like Russian? This is a question that I have posed to 8 before, but I am curious if others have thoughts as well. Russian has even more the same number of cases as Latin and, as a modern language in high demand (and with an incredible literary heritage to boot), what advantage does Latin have? (Bonus points because I actually have a degree in Russian.)

 

ETA: Wiki links comparing Russian vs. Latin grammar:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_grammar

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_grammar

Having studied a little of both Latin and Russian, I can see your point a bit. I think Latin is easier because it uses the same alphabet. The Russian alphabet is lovely but maybe a bit off putting to most kids, as it's yet another thing to learn. Also, Latin has fewer sounds, I think. I remember Russian having a lot of similar sounding sounds, particularly in the "sh" family. I think more of our English words are derived from Latin, not sure how many are derived from Russian, so there are a lot of cognates that make it easier to remember the vocabulary. And fourth, I know I find Latin easy because I studied both French and Italian, and again, many cognates. (Of course, my brain substitutes the Latin for the French, or French for Italian, or vice versa, all the time, and even more since I started teaching myself Spanish with DuoLingo, so maybe that's not a benefit!). So, yes, I do think many of the same thinking and organizational skills can happen with Russian or a different language, but I think there are some reasonable reasons to opt for Latin.

[chiguirre]

I hear what you are saying, and I don't mean to derail this thread. But, I have just heard so many excellent reasons for Latin that I think I'd feel remiss if I didn't pursue it. On the other hand, I speak Russian, my husband (and his family) are native French speakers, and my son is already learning Spanish (virtually via osmosis in Southern California) and Hebrew (we are Jewish). As there are only so many hours in the day, I ask myself whether he would be better off studying Russian vs. Latin, especially in light of programs like this: http://www.nsliforyouth.org/. Plus, so many of the Latin roots found in English are reinforced by study of French and Spanish -- two languages he is already learning.

 

If I had that set of circumstances, I'd opt for Russian. It's not as popular as Latin among hsers because it's basically impossible to learn unless you outsource unless a parent speaks it. Since very few people speak Russian, Latin is the more common choice. Spanish and French will amply cover the vocabulary benefits that can be derived from Latin, your kids won't be missing out on anything.

[JDoe]

If you are not going to study Latin with the intention of reading in Latin....Cicero by the fireside on cold evenings...then give yourself permission to pass on Latin.

 

 

A valid point, while there are additional benefits, these may be had through alternative subjects (and probably better). Albeit the whole package may not be had any other way.

 

 

There are many utilitarian reasons for studying Latin, but they can all be found through other subjects. I will say that I think Latin is efficient.  If you are studying Latin whole-hog, you can safely drop grammar/vocab/critical thinking from the schedule, freeing up time to focus on Latin itself. Still, if your goal isn't to read in Latin, then you may find that this efficiency isn't easy or simple, especially if you don't know enough Latin yourself.

 

 

I disagree somewhat, while I believe there are some crossover benefits to other subjects (logic, vocabulary-etymology, Latin derived languages, grammar, etc), that may make the study of those subjects easier/faster, but no matter how much Latin you study there is no way you will learn logic from it, unless a text on logic in latin is included in your latin studies.

[luuknam]

What are the benefits of teaching your kids Latin?

 

I took Latin in public school in 7th and 8th grade (had to drop it after that because I skipped 9th grade). The main 'benefit' is that it increases your score on the geek test:

 

http://www.innergeek.us/geek-test.html

 

Okay, that's silly, I just happened to be looking at the geek test last night for curriculum inspiration. :D

 

I took Latin because I thought it'd be neat. It was sort of neat. But I don't think I'd *make* my kids study Latin if they don't want to. I don't think it's *that* useful.

I have been moved by the arguments for Latin, but, playing devil's advocate, why would Latin be preferred to another extremely grammar-intensive, inflected language like Russian?

 

 

Russian is a very difficult language to learn, and I wouldn't want to sway anyone away from it if they had a personal or cultural reason to learn it.  However, Latin has some advantages over Russian:

1. Latin has an AP and Subject SAT test, but Russian does not.  This helps for external validation, college admissions and maybe placement.
2. Latin is not conversational, so you spend no academic time working on pronunciation and learning dialog.
3. More importantly, Latin was studied for centuries in the West, and echoes throughout the great works of the canon.  To have some understanding of Latin literature is to better understand our cultural heritage.

[FO4UR]

 

 

 

 

But the bolded statement also "cheapens the experience" of the many benefits relating to logic and analysis and etymology by dismissing them as merely "utilitarian bits and pieces." Having a deep understanding of the underlying structure of language is a skill that can be applied not only to further Latin study but also to the study of English and any other language. The way Latin trains the brain in logic and analysis and problem-solving is applicable to pretty much any other endeavor a student chooses to pursue, whether or not he ever reads more than selected excerpts of the Aeneid.

 

I think the gymnastics analogy and mom2att's math analogy are spot on. Why learn Latin if you don't plan to spend your evenings by the fire reading Cicero? Why learn algebra if you're not planning to continue through calculus? Why learn to play an instrument if you're not planning to join a symphony orchestra? Why take up a sport if you're not planning to compete at a national level?

 

It's because those things have value in their own right, not just as a means to a loftier goal. The process of learning mathematics or a language or an instrument or a sport trains the brain (and/or body) and helps develop important skills and character traits that apply to many other aspects of life. These are valuable things — one might argue that they are even more valuable than the ability to read Cicero.

 

 

To the bolded, this is my feelings on learning Latin on the whole.  Latin has value in it's own right, not just as a means to a (loftier?) goal.  

 

Should we study Latin as a means to vocab/grammar/thinking skills?  To train the brain?  I'd say that you can, but you risk losing the beauty of the language by studying it as a means to an end.

 

I am glad that you worded your last sentence the way you did...you make a good point that the lack of ability to read Cicero is not a huge deal...we have access to great thinkers, great ideas, great literature in English.  We do not need Latin in order to be educated people. Which brings us back to "Why?"

 

If it is just for the mental gymnastics, there might be a better way....especially for a busy mom who doesn't already know Latin for herself.

[ForeverFamily]

Here is a great article that Classical Academic Press linked on facebook the other day... Why Studying Latin, More So Than Business, Is Ideal Training for Actually Running a Business.  I haven't started latin with my kids yet, but this article sure made me want to get going on it. 

[Corraleno]

To the bolded, this is my feelings on learning Latin on the whole.  Latin has value in it's own right, not just as a means to a (loftier?) goal.  

 

Should we study Latin as a means to vocab/grammar/thinking skills?  To train the brain?  I'd say that you can, but you risk losing the beauty of the language by studying it as a means to an end.

 

I am glad that you worded your last sentence the way you did...you make a good point that the lack of ability to read Cicero is not a huge deal...we have access to great thinkers, great ideas, great literature in English.  We do not need Latin in order to be educated people. Which brings us back to "Why?"

 

If it is just for the mental gymnastics, there might be a better way....especially for a busy mom who doesn't already know Latin for herself.

 

Of course Latin has a value in it's own right, just as every other language does. Every student should study at least one foreign language, preferably more, because of the insight it provides into other cultures and other ways of looking at the world. So the question becomes not "Why bother with Latin?" but rather "Since the student will be studying a foreign language anyway, what potential advantages does Latin offer over other languages?"

 

Some of those might include:

 

(1) Because Latin is both inflected and very regular, and usually involves very explicit systematic study of grammar, it helps train the brain to approach language in a very logical, systematic, analytical way. In contrast, modern spoken language classes usually focus more on basic speaking and listening skills, and students are expected to pick up the grammar piece-meal as they go along. That approach will not give students the same training in systematic, analytical thinking.

 

(2) More than half of English vocabulary derives from Latin roots, including up to 90% of multi-syllable words. Latin words, phrases, and mottos occur frequently in literature, law, medicine, and science. No other language provides as much benefit in this area as Latin.

 

(3) Latin students, as a whole, score higher on the verbal part of the SAT than students of other languages, and those who take the GRE in Classical Languages or Classics have the highest Verbal scores out of 270 fields. There are both AP and SAT2 tests available in Latin, which have the bonus of not requiring listening tests, nor are students competing against native speakers.

 

(4) Since it's not a spoken language, it may be a good choice for homeschoolers who do not have access to live classes with a fluent speaker or tutor. There is a huge variety of curricula available, at all levels, with lots of ancillary resources and supports that make self-study and home teaching easier. I disagree with the idea that this is not a language for busy moms who don't already know Latin — unless they are already fluent in another language then they're going to be learning alongside the students anyway. And Latin is extremely efficient in that the "busy mom" can drop grammar and vocabulary as separate subjects if the students are doing a grammar-based Latin course.

 

Taking those factors into account when choosing a language to study doesn't mean that Latin is reduced to nothing but an extra-difficult vocab and test-prep program. Students are still learning a beautiful language, they are learning to understand the way that people in another culture thought and spoke and conceptualized the world. The factors listed above are just the "extra bonuses" that a Latin student gets, on top of all the other benefits to be gained by studying a foreign language.

[Bluegoat]

:iagree:

 

Not to mention that the "utilitarian" skills developed through studying Latin are probably going to be used and reinforced throughout a life-time, whereas the ability to read and understand Cicero is quite likely limited to one's keeping their knowledge of Latin strong enough so they can still understand it.  

 

Hmm.  But all of the utilitarian skills can be found in other subjects.  But only Cicero can be Cicero.  I find the idea that people would only read Cicero to keep up their Latin odd - plenty of people read him in translation for his own worth, and he is considered to be a beautiful Latin writer which is not going to be appreciated fully in translation.

[Bluegoat]

If I had that set of circumstances, I'd opt for Russian. It's not as popular as Latin among hsers because it's basically impossible to learn unless you outsource unless a parent speaks it. Since very few people speak Russian, Latin is the more common choice. Spanish and French will amply cover the vocabulary benefits that can be derived from Latin, your kids won't be missing out on anything.

 

Yes - i would agree.  I think it would be foolish to pass up the advantage of a fluent teacher.  And with language experience and Spanish and some French, it would not be unreasonable to add Latin as an adult if desired.

[Classical Katharine]

One reason to study Latin is that it's a great preparation for studying any inflected language.

 

So as some have asked, why not go straight to, say, Russian? For an older beginner with very strong language skills, that might work. But you'll be dealing with a new alphabet, plus an inflected language.

 

For me, studying Latin first (late middle school and early high school) turned out to be great preparation for Russian (my college major). Latin is an inflected language in our alphabet, Russian is an inflected language in another alphabet, so Latin first makes for an easier ramp. Latin has more cognates in English by far.

 

For most homeschooling families, Latin is an easier place to find out if a child has the kind of aptitude Russian requires. You can find that out with a manageable Latin program that teaches you and your child at the same time. To explore Russian, you'll probably have to find a tutor, at a much higher investment. So if you are interested in Russian, you actually can pursue that by dipping your toes into Latin to see how it goes. Of course, nothing beats the beauty of spoken Russian and that could be motivating where the sound of Latin might be a bit less so.

 

If you want to do some Latin followed by some Russian, you'll get the most out of the sequence if you do a grammar-intensive Latin program, and not a vocabulary-intensive program, so that you can leverage that grammar knowledge. Much of the grammar of Latin is the same in Russian, while little vocabulary carries over. In particular, to leverage Latin for Russian use, you would want to study the Latin case system. Russian's case system is very similar, while its verb system is quite different (lots of interior stem changes, interesting compounding imperfective/perfective verb formations . . . ) and less is gained towards Russian study by a prior mastery of Latin verbs.

 

It was interesting to see more similarity between Russian and Latin present tense verb conjugations than I had expected to see when I started Russian--the Indo-European roots of both languages do show!

[luuknam]

So as some have asked, why not go straight to, say, Russian? For an older beginner with very strong language skills, that might work. But you'll be dealing with a new alphabet, plus an inflected language.

 

I think some kids might love learning a new alphabet. I know that I was fascinated by all the writing systems when I was younger.

[Classical Katharine]

I think some kids might love learning a new alphabet. I know that I was fascinated by all the writing systems when I was younger.

 

That is true. I made up a whole alphabet when I was eleven and enjoyed writing messages in it. For others it might be intimidating and might slow down the grammar work. Every child is different!

 

[SeaConquest]

One reason to study Latin is that it's a great preparation for studying any inflected language.

 

So as some have asked, why not go straight to, say, Russian? For an older beginner with very strong language skills, that might work. But you'll be dealing with a new alphabet, plus an inflected language.

 

For me, studying Latin first (late middle school and early high school) turned out to be great preparation for Russian (my college major). Latin is an inflected language in our alphabet, Russian is an inflected language in another alphabet, so Latin first makes for an easier ramp. Latin has more cognates in English by far.

 

For most homeschooling families, Latin is an easier place to find out if a child has the kind of aptitude Russian requires. You can find that out with a manageable Latin program that teaches you and your child at the same time. To explore Russian, you'll probably have to find a tutor, at a much higher investment. So if you are interested in Russian, you actually can pursue that by dipping your toes into Latin to see how it goes. Of course, nothing beats the beauty of spoken Russian and that could be motivating where the sound of Latin might be a bit less so.

 

If you want to do some Latin followed by some Russian, you'll get the most out of the sequence if you do a grammar-intensive Latin program, and not a vocabulary-intensive program, so that you can leverage that grammar knowledge. Much of the grammar of Latin is the same in Russian, while little vocabulary carries over. In particular, to leverage Latin for Russian use, you would want to study the Latin case system. Russian's case system is very similar, while its verb system is quite different (lots of interior stem changes, interesting compounding imperfective/perfective verb formations . . . ) and less is gained towards Russian study by a prior mastery of Latin verbs.

 

It was interesting to see more similarity between Russian and Latin present tense verb conjugations than I had expected to see when I started Russian--the Indo-European roots of both languages do show!

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I am one of those struggling with whether Latin makes sense for us, given our particular circumstances. My husband is a native French speaker and I was a Russian major in college. My son is currently studying Hebrew (we are Jewish), French. Spanish (we live in Southern California), and Latin (because he thinks it is fun). Realistically, I'm not sure that it is possible for him to attain a high level in proficiency in all of these languages. But, I've been toying with the idea of substituting Russian for Latin. I like the idea of him learning an inflected language, and I doubt the Cyrillic alphabet will give him trouble (he's already mastered the Hebrew alphabet). I understand why most homeschoolers would choose Latin, but in our case, I would have no trouble teaching him Russian grammar and we have a great many native speakers in our area. I'm just not sold that Latin is worth our time.   

[Lawyer&Mom]

I think French, Spanish, Russian and Hebrew is an awesome combination of foreign languages. French gives him the benefit of a native speaker, and the Latin vocabulary. (It came to English mostly via French.) He gets the benefit of cultural heritage via Hebrew. Spanish gives him plenty of conversational opportunities. Russian gives him inflection, challenge and the opportunity to stand out a bit in the crowd. This kid doesn't need Latin. Unless he wants it, of course.

[Classical Katharine]

I agree with Lawyer and Mom that SeaConquest's children don't need Latin! SeaConquest, you have a great, enriched language-learning environment going there! Though obviously I'm partial to Latin--from both sides of the teaching desk--not everyone needs it. I meant my answer to be more generally applicable to someone with a similar question about another inflected language instead of Latin. For a lot of people who aren't sure they want to go all the way in Latin, but who are interested in Russian or Greek or Arabic or another inflected language, starting with Latin grammar and translation (not just vocabulary) can be very helpful.

[8filltheheart]

I agree with Lawyer and Mom that SeaConquest's children don't need Latin! SeaConquest, you have a great, enriched language-learning environment going there! Though obviously I'm partial to Latin--from both sides of the teaching desk--not everyone needs it. I meant my answer to be more generally applicable to someone with a similar question about another inflected language instead of Latin. For a lot of people who aren't sure they want to go all the way in Latin, but who are interested in Russian or Greek or Arabic or another inflected language, starting with Latin grammar and translation (not just vocabulary) can be very helpful.

 

I would say my dd's experience has mirrored what you have written in your posts.  She is so successful with all of her languages b/c she has such an incredibly strong grasp of grammar.  Latin definitely developed those skills.  I am pretty sure she would say that French did not help her Latin or Russian, but that the converse is not true.  Latin and Russian have aided each other and probably her French as well (and French is her most advanced language!)  But those are just my outsider's thoughts.  She isn't here for me to confirm them with her.  THey are more just based on my observations from watching her learn.

[Classical Katharine]

8Fill, your daughter has taken most of my languages! Fun to meet a junior twin. Now if she'll just do a little Greek, we'll be identicals.

 

I'd say Latin helped my Russian and my Greek a lot; as for my French, Latin didn't so much help it, as make me dance around delightedly at what turned out to be linguistics. Or some such. As in, Oh! "fenetre" in French (that second "e" needs a circumflex) must mean "window" because "fenestra" in Latin does, and so that French circumflex reflects a lost "s" . . .

[8filltheheart]

Well, linguistics is a subject we are adding for 11th grade.  :)

[Classical Katharine]

8Fill, are you using a resource for that or pulling it together on your own?

[8filltheheart]

8Fill, are you using a resource for that or pulling it together on your own?

 

Pulling it together on my own.  I ordered 4 TC courses on Audible when they had their recent sale:

• Myths, Lies, and Half-Truths of Language Useage
• The History of English Language
• THe Story of Human Language
• Writing and Civilization.

 

I haven't had time to really dig into anything b/c I am trying to finish my final edits on a book on designing your own courses.  (I hope to have it on my website by the end of the week.)  But dd is already reading Our Magnificent B*stard Tongue. :)

[8filltheheart]

8Fill, are you using a resource for that or pulling it together on your own?

 

Pulling it together on my own.  I ordered 4 TC courses on Audible when they had their recent sale:

• Myths, Lies, and Half-Truths of Language Useage
• The History of English Language
• THe Story of Human Language
• Writing and Civilization.

 

I haven't had time to really dig into anything b/c I am trying to finish my final edits on a book on designing your own courses.  (I hope to have it on my website by the end of the week.)  But dd is already reading Our Magnificent B*stard Tongue. :)

[Reefgazer]

The benefits for my kids have been:

 

1.  Teaches a more precise attention to detail, because the Latin language requires it.  This has carried over into other subjects and has been the biggest benefit, IMO.

 

2.  It will enrich their vocabulary.  No separate vocabulary or grammar program needed; and no grammar-cramming for college entrance exams because your child will have the background in Latin to handle those stems and roots.

 

3.  High school credit for a foreign language that I can handle teaching without having to outsource ( at least until the upper translation levels).

 

4.  When your child gets far enough along in Latin, they can read foundational literature of western civilization in the original language without a filter and without needing translation.

 

5.  Provides a good foundation for the study of modern Romance languages.

 

For the 2+ years I have been teaching Latin, I prefer Memoria Press' Form series for the middle school ages.  It attacks the language from a grammar-first perspective, which sets up a great scaffolding to learn the language thoroughly.  In addition, it has a video teacher, so if you don't feel up to teaching it from scratch yourself, good old Glen of First Form fame will do it for you.  I do not find Latin parent intensive with the Memoria Press products.  The programs are simple and gentle up through Latina Christiana, but First Form really ramps it up for the student (But of course, that's also where you get the greatest benefit).