Economics from a balanced perspective?

[mazakaal]

As I said in a previous post, I'm looking for a high school economics course. We're Christians, and very conservative in many respects, but I'm a little wary of going with a Christian economics course because (treading lightly here) I've noticed that some Christians, in my opinion, have a slightly-biased attitude toward free market economy and social issues. I don't want to step on any toes, and I know this is a very divisive subject, so please don't read anything horrible into my words. I absolutely believe in the free market, but I also believe that government regulation is necessary to keep private companies from allowing greed to rule their decisions.

 

I really, really, really don't want to get in a debate about my beliefs on this topic, or spur any sort of debate by others. I just want to know if there is an economics program that will be balanced in its handling of this subject. I've been looking at Notgrass, Economics in a Box, Thinkwell, BJU, Beautiful Feet (text by Zeezock publishing), and Economics for Everyone. Ds likes Economics for Everyone, and I was ready to order, but noticed a less than glowing review on Amazon for the Basic Economics text (by Carson) that Sproul uses for the course. I'd really appreciate any feedback that anyone can offer. Feel free to pm me if you want to, to avoid controversy and debate.

[frogger]

What about Economics Today The Macro View by Roger LeRoy Miller?  He also has a Micro book. I don't remember a tremendous amount of math in either but it may be overkill for what you want.  I can check each chapter if you want. It was my husband's college econ book but didn't involve a lot of econometrics just things like supply, demand, opportunity cost, trade, inflation, etc.  but it would give you all the basic vocab and is what I plan on using for my high schooler in the next year or two. To listen to economists talk you need to know what they actually mean by their econ speak. Many people get very inaccurate meanings of economics terms by listening to journalists using them incorrectly.

 

Looking at Thinkwell's Table of Contents makes me think it's mostly covering the basics and not getting into the public policy so much.

 

Also I would really recommend econtalk.org. He comes from a free market view point but he is more than fair and often plays the devil's advocate when interviewing guests with the same ideological background. He interviews many people from the opposite perspective and it is refreshing to hear people with dramatically different viewpoints discuss things in an adult like manner and actually learn from each other. It is educational for kids just to hear adults disagreeing in a polite way if you know what I mean. You can search the backlog of podcasts for topics that may be of interest to you or your student as some would probably go over your student's head.

[mazakaal]

I think the book may be a bit too much for ds (over 800 pages at a college level), but the website looks fantastic. I can maybe use that to balance a more conservative course. Thanks so much.

[EKS]

I've been looking at TCI's Econ Alive.  I don't know if it would work for you, but the good thing about it is that you can see extensive samples on their website.

[frogger]

Wow, I just looked through the text and it jumps from 499 to 833. They must have edited out 334 pages. Weird.

 

[mazakaal]

That looks very interesting! I've never heard of the company before, but I like the few samples I watched. It looks like if I were to buy it, I would just need the Student Bundle, not the Teacher materials. Is this correct?

 

[mazakaal]

Wow, I just looked through the text and it jumps from 499 to 833. They must have edited out 334 pages. Weird.

You mean the numbering on your textbook goes from page 499 to page 833? That's really weird.

[creekland]

We used the Economics Course the Teaching Company has and really liked it.  It covered a bunch and seemed to be very well balanced IMO.  My business major son told me he was bored in his Intro to Economics college class because it was merely repeating what he had already learned.

 

Their course consists of a video lecture to be watched, then a handful of study guide questions I had my guys write responses to.  Then, as always in our homeschooling experience, we discussed things.

 

It's been a few years now since we used ours, so I've no idea if they still have the same course or have updated it.

[mazakaal]

TTC has several different courses on economics. Do you remember the name of the teacher?

[creekland]

I went to their site and looked.  It was this one:

 

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/economics-3rd-edition.html

 

Same prof teaching it too.

[mazakaal]

Thanks. This looks good.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Just adding what I have lined up for econ for what it is worth.  

 

Economics for Dummies

Cartoon Guide to Economics- Macro

Cartoon Guide to Economics- Micro

 

John Stossel Economics (DVDs)

Penny Candy

[Bluegoat]

Do you need a course, or would some books rather than texts be helpful?  Something like Economics: A User's Guide would be readable by a high school student.  And for a non-libertarian Christian perspective there is actually quite a lot.  Chesterton for exaple wrote a fair bit about economics.

[mazakaal]

I'd be willing to use plain books if there are some comprehension questions in them. I don't want to have to pre-read and come up with assignments.

 

Are you referring to Economics: The User's Guide by Chang? And are there any of Chesterton's books that you particularly recommend?

 

[JDoe]

 I just want to know if there is an economics program that will be balanced in its handling of this subject.

 

I don't think there is. In order to provide a balanced program I suspect you would need to put it together yourself with pieces (books) from each main school of economics.

 

Keynesianism and Chicago are the main ones today, which can be supplemented with Marxian and Austrian. Introductory texts for each should be easy to find I believe.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_economic_thought

 

 

Alternatively if what you want is just to avoid free market views I would drop Chicago and Austrian and just do an introductory text to Keynesianism maybe supplemented with Marx (Optional)

[mazakaal]

Okay. That's a little disappointing. It's been years since I took economics courses in college, and I don't remember all the names for the different schools of thought, so that Wikipedia article will be helpful. It would have been really nice, though, if there were an economics course that taught the basics of economics - the definitions and a basic outline of the schools of thought. I may just get one of the standard economics programs and add in one of the Chan books and the econtalk website to balance it a bit. I don't really have time to research good books to explain each school of thought and put together a program on my own. Thanks for your help.

[JDoe]

Well, you could probably incorporate the following book by Ha-Joon Chang (Teaches at Cambridge University, England)

 

 

 

He also has a somewhat longer book, that includes his take on many different schools, that may be of interest, but it is not a textbook.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Economics-Users-Guide-Pelican-Introduction/dp/0718197038

[jetzmama]

I have the Sproul course, but have not used it because our co-op wound up using What Ever Happy to Penny Candy and related books, as well as the accompanying Blue Stocking Guide to Economics.  That said, I did watch Sproul's econ video with my ds.  Economics/political sway/social issues/interventionism were integrated well, but at the end of the long video (we watched it all in one setting rather than a segment with each chapter of the book), ds found the prospects of the U.S. economic direction to be rather dismal on multiple fronts.  The video definitely had a big picture POV. 

 

We found the WEHTPC series/BSG to be more neutral.  The letter writing format allows the author to present economic consequences in small, but significant ways that were easier to digest for a first time econ course.  There was no 'preaching' about the role of economics/gov't.  I also liked that the BSG used original source documents, followed by some thought questions, to allow ds to think for himself about many aspects of economics. 

 

DS loved econ, so he also did an online course that used Notgrass. I appreciated the historical context, specific examples (both large and small scale), and the stewardship aspect of Notgrass.  Both big picture and personal application addressed well. Not preachy.  

 

I know he talked about several types of economics mentioned above, as well as lots of terms, but don't recall now if it was from Penny Candy/BSG or Notgrass.  Will ask tomorrow. 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I'd be willing to use plain books if there are some comprehension questions in them. I don't want to have to pre-read and come up with assignments.

 

Are you referring to Economics: The User's Guide by Chang? And are there any of Chesterton's books that you particularly recommend?

 

Hmm, well, I would just ask them to write narrations rather than giving questions.

 

As for Chesterton, his books that might most apply are Utopia of Usurers, What's Wrong With the World, or The Outline of Sanity.  Most of these would be a supplemet to a more general course I think.  What's interesting is that they are a particularly Christian look at economics.  But Chesterton also wrote a lot of essays, and it might be more doable to look at a few of those with a more general economics course.  You can find most available online, I would google "Chesterton" and "economics" or "distributism".

[Joan in GE]

Hmm, well, I would just ask them to write narrations rather than giving questions.

 

As for Chesterton, his books that might most apply are Utopia of Usurers, What's Wrong With the World, or The Outline of Sanity.  Most of these would be a supplemet to a more general course I think.  What's interesting is that they are a particularly Christian look at economics.  But Chesterton also wrote a lot of essays, and it might be more doable to look at a few of those with a more general economics course.  You can find most available online, I would google "Chesterton" and "economics" or "distributism".

 

This is fascinating because just googled him and found this quote -

 

"Chesterton's Distributism is centered on the idea that to end state socialism and prevent capitalist monopolies there must be a predominance of small ownership." from The American Chesterton Society

 

I was just in the UK and the number of small shops in London is impressive! Now I wasn't in the countryside nor in 'malls' so my anecdotal sample is limited...Still compared to what I have seen elsewhere, there does seem to be a higher number.

 

Also in conversing with a local there about why so many people would prefer to immigrate to the UK vs other European countries (though of course there are lots of applications in other countries as well), he said he thought it was because "anyone who really wants to work will find a job" and that the country is more open to entrepreneurs or something like that...

[mazakaal]

Joan, I lived in the UK for years. There are far more independent retailers in the UK than there are here. In fact, that's one of the things that has been the biggest culture shock for me as I've returned to America. There is still the controversy there whenever a larger store or 'superstore' opens in an area that it will shut down the smaller retailers in the area. But the locals mostly keep their loyalties with the small shops, at least enough to keep the shops open. I know that when a WH Smith (chain of stores selling books, magazines, office supplies) opened in my town, I made a point to keep going to the locally owned bookstore, newsagent, and office supply shops whenever I could. There is much more an awareness of it there than in America.

 

Bluegoat, thanks for the specific suggestions. I will look at those. And Jetzmama, I'll look at the Bluestocking Guide as well. JDoe, I'm intrigued by the Chan books. I think I want to order them just for me to read! Forget about my son. :-) 

 

Thanks so much for all the suggestions.

[Bluegoat]

Chang has a number of nice popular economics books.  He's very readable and quite funny, which is nice.

 

The American Chesterton society, which Joan mentioned, has some good resources.  I sometimes feel a bit unhappy with them, I feel like they look at Chesterton as if he were at heart a sort of American individualist. 

 

There is a whole approach to politics/economics that hasn't had a very strong history in the US, but you see it in a lot of Christian (and others too) writers that take quite a different approach than the kind of free market libertarianism that is common in some evangelical circles.  It tends to get labled as a kind of socialism by those people, but that isn't I think totally accurate and in some cases it is just plain wrong.  In as much as it might be charachterized as a kind of socialism, it isn't state socialism but a much more communitarian and localist approach - it tends to look very favorably on co-ops for example.  And while that tends to be seen as a kind of leftism, it has some pretty close ties to traditional conservatism which normally would be placed on the right.

 

The co-op movement even today has a very strong Christian presence and historically that is also the case.  And while it isn't Marxist, it does tend to agree with a lot of Marx's observations about capitalism and why it doesn't tend to work well over the long term.

 

Anyway, all this is to say, there is a lot out there.  There has been some serious critisism about the way that economics is being taught in universities in the last few years, specifically since the problems began, which might be something to look into as far as looking at teaching a high school course.

 

[Joan in GE]

Chang has a number of nice popular economics books.  He's very readable and quite funny, which is nice.

 

The American Chesterton society, which Joan mentioned, has some good resources.  I sometimes feel a bit unhappy with them, I feel like they look at Chesterton as if he were at heart a sort of American individualist. 

 

There is a whole approach to politics/economics that hasn't had a very strong history in the US, but you see it in a lot of Christian (and others too) writers that take quite a different approach than the kind of free market libertarianism that is common in some evangelical circles.  It tends to get labled as a kind of socialism by those people, but that isn't I think totally accurate and in some cases it is just plain wrong.  In as much as it might be charachterized as a kind of socialism, it isn't state socialism but a much more communitarian and localist approach - it tends to look very favorably on co-ops for example.  And while that tends to be seen as a kind of leftism, it has some pretty close ties to traditional conservatism which normally would be placed on the right.

 

The co-op movement even today has a very strong Christian presence and historically that is also the case.  And while it isn't Marxist, it does tend to agree with a lot of Marx's observations about capitalism and why it doesn't tend to work well over the long term.

 

Anyway, all this is to say, there is a lot out there.  There has been some serious critisism about the way that economics is being taught in universities in the last few years, specifically since the problems began, which might be something to look into as far as looking at teaching a high school course.

 

A while ago I started a thread asking if coursework for Economics had changed after 2008....

 

We ended up using a Swiss economics book which I think had a more balanced approach (sorry it's in French and it's also for a much more manageable situation - ie not as complex in some ways as the US - but the Swiss do have difficulties with having such a desirable currency - did you know they're offering negative interest now?)

 

I just read an interesting definition of "private" property on Wikipedia...I'm sure that differences in the definition of such are completely confusing many individuals....

[mazakaal]

Thanks so much for all of the suggestions. I think that I'm going to order the Economics textbook that Beautiful Feet uses (because it is looks reasonably straightforward and short enough that I can add some Chesterton and Chang without making the course too overwhelming). I've ordered two of Chesterton's books and the Chang book and am really looking forward to digging into them myself before I hand them off to my kids. And when I get back to the UK I'm going to order the TTC videos (they're one of the few things that are cheaper over there). 

 

I haven't done any reading on economics since college (25! years ago), but I've formed my own ideas based on what I've seen here and when living overseas. I'm really looking forward to learning more about what these authors have to say. I feel like it will put names to what I've been believing for quite a while.