When discussion/Socratic questioning goes badly

[Miss Mousie]

What does that look like, and how do you handle it? 

 

When you get "I don't know" or "nothing" in response, how much do you keep trying?  How hard do you push to get something, anything reasonable for an answer?  Do you reach a point where you think "child's brain isn't working well today, I'll stop and try again tomorrow"?  Do you give up on oral discussion and tell the child to answer questions in writing instead?

 

DS14, newly homeschooled this year, has little to no experience with literary discussions, and I am having a hard time figuring out how to guide us.  When I get those "nothing" responses I get frustrated - too easily, I'm sure - and when we've been at it for 15 or 20 minutes and I'm still trying to work with "light" questions, I fear that continuing to spend time trying to dig deeper will end in disaster, so there our discussion ends.  There is also the fear of ruining literature - both the book itself and the concept as a whole - so I try to tread lightly but still get some movement!

 

I'm not sure how to get the hang of this, and I'm not sure what my expectations should be, and I don't know the difference between "reasonable 8th/9th grade discussion level" and "far below standards for any sentient being."  ;)

 

I remember SWB saying in a lecture that kids at this stage essentially require spoon-feeding ... but I'm not sure how much she really means that.  I mean, if I ask the questions and provide some possible responses, aren't I just talking to myself?  But maybe that's how it's supposed to be at the beginning - modeling at first, then seeking the student's original input.

 

I know this is rambly and probably makes little sense, but can anyone help me sort it out?

 

 

[AK_Mom4]

I have two kids who were born arguing, but kid #3 struggled mightily with this sort of thing, so we turned it around.  I handed him the manual and had him ask me the questions first.  He had to see the responses modeled a few times before it clicked in his brain that this really wasn't a game of Stump The Student.  Eventually, he got so he enjoyed the format, but it took time.  

 

I have a feeling that DD13 is traveling in the same path, so I suspect I will be modeling, modeling, modeling again.  And gritting my teeth a lot.

[Miss Mousie]

I have two kids who were born arguing, but kid #3 struggled mightily with this sort of thing, so we turned it around.  I handed him the manual and had him ask me the questions first.  He had to see the responses modeled a few times before it clicked in his brain that this really wasn't a game of Stump The Student.  Eventually, he got so he enjoyed the format, but it took time.  

 

I have a feeling that DD13 is traveling in the same path, so I suspect I will be modeling, modeling, modeling again.  And gritting my teeth a lot.

 

I really think you're on to something with the "Stump the Student" perception!  My son does seem to think that way, at least sometimes.

[happypamama]

Maybe share a bit of your own interpretation? Like, if it asks what was the character you liked the most, and the kid says he doesn't know, maybe tell him that you liked Susie and why. Maybe he'll jump up and agree with you and add more reasons, or he'll argue that Susie was boring because she didn't do anything, but Lou, now, SHE was exciting because she was always going on an adventure. Maybe he just needs you to get things started.

 

Or maybe offer some black and white questions first, not too open-ended? Should Susie have done X or not? Show me evidence why X was a good choice, or why it was a bad choice.

 

I'm really talking out of thin air here, and I could be totally off base, but these are the kinds of things I use with my kids when I want them to think, but they are having trouble getting started.

[MysteryJen]

I have found that a couple of things work. 1. Have the discussion in the car. So you don't have to see the "deer in the headlights" look and you have something to do while they are thinking. 2. Understand that maybe they didn't read the book closely enough and you need to fix this by assigning comprehension questions before you discuss. 3. A movie can spur discussion, especially if it is a badly done interpretation. 4. For literary stuff, I usually start with characters and ask them who they know is like the character. You can learn much about their friends this way, too.

 

Also, including books that you know they have loved in the discussion can make kids chattier as well.

[Lori D.]

On 4/13/2015 at 8:36 AM, AK_Mom4 said:

… we turned it around.  I handed him the manual and had him ask me the questions first.  He had to see the responses modeled a few times before it clicked in his brain that this really wasn't a game of Stump The Student.

That's absolutely brilliant! 🙂

On 4/13/2015 at 7:35 AM, Miss Mousie said:

… When you get "I don't know" or "nothing" in response, how much do you keep trying?  How hard do you push to get something, anything reasonable for an answer?  Do you reach a point where you think "child's brain isn't working well today, I'll stop and try again tomorrow"?  Do you give up on oral discussion and tell the child to answer questions in writing instead?

… DS14, newly homeschooled this year, has little to no experience with literary discussions, and I am having a hard time figuring out how to guide us...

… I remember SWB saying in a lecture that kids at this stage essentially require spoon-feeding … can anyone help me sort it out?

"Spoon-feeding" for 2 DSs here looked like me asking very leading questions -- sometimes almost "fill in the blank". Spoon-feeding questions are "big picture" questions with specific details from the specific work of literature, so that it's pretty hard to miss the "big idea" going on. Once they "fill-in-the-blank, try for a little deeper conversation on that topic:

- make connections with other things in the book, with real life, with other books or movies or TV shows
- predict/guess what WILL happen, based on what has already happened
- personal opinion or personal application… what do YOU think about that choice, that theme, that worldview, that political system, that idea, etc.

We got a lot of one-syllable responses in those first years, too, as DSs were trying to get it figured out. 😉 And yes, sometimes it's good to just let it go (okay, I did NOT intend to sound like Frozen, there…)

And if your student does better with time to think and write an answer, you might try including some of that (you still need to do actual discussion), with one deeper question -- write it down on a white board or in a notebook, and then over the next 2 days, as you think on it, EACH of you write a response to that question.

I LOVE AK_Mom4's suggestion of turning it around! I also think that while Socratic questions can be useful, they are a very broad, bare starting point -- if feels like the answer could be anything, and that can shut down discussion really quick. Having a much more specific starting point can give you something to springboard from. Some ideas:

- sometimes it's helpful to read aloud together the Sparknotes chapter summary & analysis for the first few chapters; the analysis part brings up themes and "big ideas", which gives you something more specific to start with than very general big Socratic questions

- guided literature programs, or following that format, can be helpful; for example: LLftLotR has a page of chapter notes at the end of every chapter, pointing out things, and THEN asks a few related discussion questions

- individual literature guides can also be helpful for questions specific to the book, and jumpstart you with topics and themes going on in the book; Garlic Press Publishers' Discovering Literature Challenger level guides are great -- a half-page summary of each chapter and then a good handful of very meaty discussion questions based on that chapter

Also, it's a lot for one student to have to do all of the answering -- they can really feel "on the spot" having to be up for every single question; can you:

- alternate asking/answering questions with your student?
- can a sibling join in?
- can some of the discussion be done with friend(s) ala book club style once a week?

Compare/contrast is a great starting place for analysis. It's easy to make a quick chart, lining up how two characters, two settings, two scenes, etc. are similar/different, and then start musing together about those similarities/differences might mean. Also, comparing with OTHER books, or movies or TV shows can be very helpful in starting discussion.

 

Also, sometimes it's easier to learn HOW to "discuss" with movies and TV shows rather than literature. Films are so visual, you can SEE the devices at work and talk about how those suggest theme or develop character, or… etc.

 

For example, a shot framed so that the character is separated from others (behind a window or fence, or with a post between the individual and the group, visually LOOKS like isolation. A shot with diagonals of bright light and heavy shadows screams contrast and tension. A muted color palette with the main character dressed in red will make that character, even in an extreme wide shot, jump out at you to make it easy to follow that character, but also the red may be symbolic (life? passion? blood/violence?) -- what else is going on in the movie with that character to make a logical connection as a symbol of what?

 

A GREAT stepping stone program to start by discussing films, and then translate over to literature is Movies as Literature.

Short stories are also a good starting place for discussing literature; because they are so short, every word counts, and there's no space to waste, so the author gets right down to business in trying to show what they want to say.

I personally like the way the program Windows to the World has you annotate the short story, which then gets you thinking about possible connections and big ideas in the story and how literary elements are supporting those big ideas. So, you might try having BOTH of you read/annotate a short story, and then use your annotations as springboard for discussion to practice what to look for, what that might be pointing towards, and how to talk about it…

Check out this thread, esp. towards the end, of 5LittleMonkeys helping her DD get over the hump of how to annotate and then discuss: Why does my DD have lots to say (until I ask her to write it down)

On 4/13/2015 at 7:35 AM, Miss Mousie said:

What does that look like, and how do you handle it? 

Here's a good thread that has more ideas on sparking discussion; my post in there repeats some of what's in this post, BUT, I linked other more threads on "what discussion looks like":  How do you encourage independent thinking and discussion?

Hang in there! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Lori D.

[Miss Mousie]

Maybe share a bit of your own interpretation? Like, if it asks what was the character you liked the most, and the kid says he doesn't know, maybe tell him that you liked Susie and why. Maybe he'll jump up and agree with you and add more reasons, or he'll argue that Susie was boring because she didn't do anything, but Lou, now, SHE was exciting because she was always going on an adventure. Maybe he just needs you to get things started.

 

Or maybe offer some black and white questions first, not too open-ended? Should Susie have done X or not? Show me evidence why X was a good choice, or why it was a bad choice.

 

I'm really talking out of thin air here, and I could be totally off base, but these are the kinds of things I use with my kids when I want them to think, but they are having trouble getting started.

 

 

I have been doing some of this, but apparently not enough yet.  Impatience is a real shortcoming of mine. 

 

And I'm trying to burn the question "should X have done that?" into my memory so I'll actually remember to ask it now and then.  ;)

 

 

I have found that a couple of things work. 1. Have the discussion in the car. So you don't have to see the "deer in the headlights" look and you have something to do while they are thinking. 2. Understand that maybe they didn't read the book closely enough and you need to fix this by assigning comprehension questions before you discuss. 3. A movie can spur discussion, especially if it is a badly done interpretation. 4. For literary stuff, I usually start with characters and ask them who they know is like the character. You can learn much about their friends this way, too.

 

Also, including books that you know they have loved in the discussion can make kids chattier as well.

 

 

We have had limited success with #1; we are rarely in the car during "school time," and DS balks at school stuff outside of that unless he's the one to bring it up.  The few times he has opened discussion, it has been very good!

 

#2 is a bit of a problem; I am having him work on reading comprehension skills, but I don't want to forestall all the other benefits of discussion until he can consistently identify a main idea or summarize a chapter.

 

#4 looks promising.  I'll try that.  (But maybe not with our current book, Oliver Twist).  ;)

[texasmama]

I remember SWB saying in a lecture that kids at this stage essentially require spoon-feeding ... but I'm not sure how much she really means that.  I mean, if I ask the questions and provide some possible responses, aren't I just talking to myself?  But maybe that's how it's supposed to be at the beginning - modeling at first, then seeking the student's original input.

This is exactly what I do.  One of my boys has some special needs which impact the discussions.  The other is just not too into discussions.  I like the Andrew Kern question "Should so and so have done such and such?"  It is open-ended, and it seems to get responses.  I also like to ask what they would have done in the character's position.  When I ask questions, I might stare off into space, ponder aloud about something and then sit quietly waiting for a bit.  All of these can help my kids not to feel pressured.  I also teach a literature analysis class at co op, and I use this technique a lot.  

 

So yes, I ask the questions and provide as many responses/prompts as needed.  Some kids are not just terribly interested in analysis.  Ironically, my 9 yo dd is the most engaged in literary discussions, even when the read alouds are her brothers'. 

[Miss Mousie]

 

"Spoon-feeding" for 2 DSs here looked like me asking very leading questions -- sometimes almost "fill in the blank". Spoon-feeding questions are "big picture" questions with specific details from the specific work of literature, so that it's pretty hard to miss the "big idea" going on.

 

At the risk of appearing dense - can you give me an example of this kind of question?

 

 

Once they "fill-in-the-blank, try for a little deeper conversation on that topic:

- make connections with other things in the book, with real life, with other books or movies or TV shows

- predict/guess what WILL happen, based on what has already happened

- personal opinion or personal application… what do YOU think about that choice, that theme, that worldview, that political system, that idea, etc.

 

DS is good with connections to other things.  I am just beginning to get glimpses of personal opinion, but my guess is that will increase as he grows more confident and comes to "trust" me more as a conversational partner.

 

We got a lot of one-syllable responses in those first years, too, as DSs were trying to get it figured out. ;) And yes, sometimes it's good to just let it go (okay, I did NOT intend to sound like Frozen, there…)

 

See, right there in the bolded - years, plural - that's what freaks me out and makes me feel like I stink at this, because it always seems to me like everyone else "gets it" right away and they spend those plural years basking in rich literary pastures, LOL, while I plod along trying to squeeze one good word from the turnip.

 

And if your student does better with time to think and write an answer, you might try including some of that (you still need to do actual discussion), with one deeper question -- write it down on a white board or in a notebook, and then over the next 2 days, as you think on it, EACH of you write a response to that question.

 

This, too, is a good idea.  DS generally loathes writing, and can talk it out much more thoroughly, but maybe I just need to say "mull over this question today and we'll discuss it tomorrow."

 

 

I LOVE AK_Mom4's suggestion of turning it around! I also think that while Socratic questions can be useful, they are a very broad, bare starting point -- if feels like the answer could be anything, and that can shut down discussion really quick. Having a much more specific starting point can give you something to springboard from. Some ideas:

 

- sometimes it's helpful to read aloud together the Sparknotes chapter summary & analysis for the first few chapters; the analysis part brings up themes and "big ideas", which gives you something more specific to start with than very general big Socratic questions

 

- guided literature programs, or following that format, can be helpful; for example: LLftLotR has a page of chapter notes at the end of every chapter, pointing out things, and THEN asks a few related discussion questions

 

- individual literature guides can also be helpful for questions specific to the book, and jumpstart you with topics and themes going on in the book; Garlic Press Publishers' Discovering Literature Challenger level guides are great -- a half-page summary of each chapter and then a good handful of very meaty discussion questions based on that chapter

 

We have done some of this - with SparkNotes or some other online source - but I am afraid doing too mulch of that would lead to DS thinking literature discussion has "right answers."  Sometimes I will look for something in the source that I disagree with so I can walk DS through that scenario, even though the author of the guide is not present to defend his/her position.  At least DS can see that multiple perspectives are possible.

 

In one old thread that I read here recently - can't recall which - someone pointed out that instead of right or wrong, she focuses on "is it supported by the text?"  That, to me, is really the key to the whole game, and I think it needs to be my major focus with DS, even to the detriment of what others might consider essential questions.

 

Also, it's a lot for one student to have to do all of the answering -- they can really feel "on the spot" having to be up for every single question; can you:

- alternate asking/answering questions with your student?

- can a sibling join in?

- can some of the discussion be done with friend(s) ala book club style once a week?

 

Sadly, none of those are possible, but it is good for me to keep that in mind (as well as giving him more than 10 seconds to come up with an answer!).

 

Compare/contrast is a great starting place for analysis. It's easy to make a quick chart, lining up how two characters, two settings, two scenes, etc. are similar/different, and then start musing together about those similarities/differences might mean. Also, comparing with OTHER books, or movies or TV shows can be very helpful in starting discussion.

...

 

Short stories are also a good starting place for discussing literature; because they are so short, every word counts, and there's no space to waste, so the author gets right down to business in trying to show what they want to say.

 

Good ideas here!  I am hoping, tomorrow, to give a short intro to annotation (loosely based on Adler) and on Wednesday we'll take a stab at annotating Gaiman's "October in the Chair," which we read last week.  DS wrote a reader response and raised a great question, so I want to try to help him answer it by closely examining the text.  In my mind, it will be just right for him and will make the lightbulb go on!  But then there's fear again, and impatience ...

 

 

 

Thanks for the links and ideas and encouragement!  I know I have read both of those threads - and it wasn't even that long ago! - but I need to go through them again, with my own situation now more clearly in mind.

 

You know what would be great?  If I could run these discussions in slow-mo, so I have time to think in between my words, and take all those deep breaths....

[Miss Mousie]

This is exactly what I do.  One of my boys has some special needs which impact the discussions.  The other is just not too into discussions.  I like the Andrew Kern question "Should so and so have done such and such?"  It is open-ended, and it seems to get responses.  I also like to ask what they would have done in the character's position.  When I ask questions, I might stare off into space, ponder aloud about something and then sit quietly waiting for a bit.  All of these can help my kids not to feel pressured.  I also teach a literature analysis class at co op, and I use this technique a lot.  

 

So yes, I ask the questions and provide as many responses/prompts as needed.  Some kids are not just terribly interested in analysis.  Ironically, my 9 yo dd is the most engaged in literary discussions, even when the read alouds are her brothers'. 

 

Oooh, that's great!  I think doodling-while-pondering might work really well for both of us, both to get around the "deer in the headlights" that MysteryJen mentioned, and to keep myself from rushing him.

[WTMCassandra]

You've gotten some good responses, but I want to add one thing. When I started introducing mine to literary analysis, I started out by discussing a favorite book my theory is that learning analysis and learning the book are two different skills at first, kind of like how forming a sentence and writing it down are two different skills at first when they are young.

[Miss Mousie]

You've gotten some good responses, but I want to add one thing. When I started introducing mine to literary analysis, I started out by discussing a favorite book my theory is that learning analysis and learning the book are two different skills at first, kind of like how forming a sentence and writing it down are two different skills at first when they are young.

 

You know, that's right.  I remember now that someone here started out with children's books.  I'll bet that would be fun!

[swimmermom3]

Miss Mousie, what kind of questions do ask your son?

 

What I am interested in with my student is his opinion. I couldn't give a flying rip about comprehension questions because I can tell by the discussion whether or not he read the book.

 

If you can get an overall sense of the student's feelings about the book, you can reel them in. Ambivalence is workable too.

 

So they really don't like book, what don't they like?

 

The characters bug you? Anyone in particular? At what point did you know you didn't like Horatio? Show me in the text. Anything else make you not like Horatio?

 

These aren't the best examples, but if you work from their opinions of the plot, the characters, the setting, the dialogue, the end, or whatever, they don't have to rack their brains for answers. If your eyes aren't glued to a teacher's guide, it's less intimidating. Have them show you the points in the text that helped them form their opinions.

 

You want them thinking about the work and relating to it. If they can't relate to it, they'll probably produce some very good analysis in telling you why they don't like a character, or the plot, or the dialogue.

 

Ds and I have done literary analysis together for years and ours looks more like me saying, "Okay, I read this passage and I don't know what to make of it."  "On one hand I can see where she's coming from, but the idea kind of makes my skin crawl."  Or my son will exclaim, "What an a--!" about a character and I'll raise an eyebrow and say "Really, I am not sure I saw that, so convince me."  The boy knows I don't have all the answers and is fairly comfortable disproving whatever I've announced.

 

With time, you'll both get it. Don't make it rigid and really listen to his answers. He might surprise you with something that's not in the lit guide and yet you think he is spot on.

[texasmama]

Swimmermom's post reminded me that ambivalence works as a discussion tool.  My entire literature analysis class hates our current book, Five Children and It so we talk about why they dislike it and what would make it better for them.  Also, when we discussed the protagonist and antagonist, my smarmy son (who is in my class) listed the "verbose narrator" as the antagonist. :lol:   It's all fair game.

[Heathermomster]

Teaching the Classics DVDs teach story analysis with Socratic questioning using children's literature. Maybe try that or Windows to the World by IEW, which is written for high schoolers.

 

For DS to examine a story, he needs to read it at least twice and circle any unknown words to look up. DS does not want to do this. We also complete a brief autobiographical sketch of the author to determine the context in which a story was written. And then there is the annotation of the story. The Well Educated MInd covers this too.

[swimmermom3]

Swimmermom's post reminded me that ambivalence works as a discussion tool.  My entire literature analysis class hates our current book, Five Children and It so we talk about why they dislike it and what would make it better for them.  Also, when we discussed the protagonist and antagonist, my smarmy son (who is in my class) listed the "verbose narrator" as the antagonist. :lol:   It's all fair game.

 

We read Mansfield Park. Ds loathed it and I felt like I was playing "Where's Waldo?" Only I was looking for Jane as I know her. Works that elicit dislike to loathing are fun to work with. 

 

Short stories  work really well with kids that are struggling to form opinions about what they've read, because short stories usually pack a "punch" that a reader wasn't expecting. Also, the kid doesn't have to look too far to find material that supports his opinion. Short stories are also a good place to leave your literature guide behind and just roll with what you read. Often you will get a much more genuine discussion with your student.

 

[Heathermomster]

Swimmermom's post reminded me that ambivalence works as a discussion tool. My entire literature analysis class hates our current book, Five Children and It so we talk about why they dislike it and what would make it better for them. Also, when we discussed the protagonist and antagonist, my smarmy son (who is in my class) listed the "verbose narrator" as the antagonist. :lol: It's all fair game.

If I recall correctly, Nesbit was a bit of a radical for her time. Did you and the class explore her life at all?

[texasmama]

If I recall correctly, Nesbit was a bit of a radical for her time. Did you and the class explore her life at all?

We have not, and that is a good suggestion.  

[Mike in SA]

I ask, "how could you find out?"  :)  It's a little evil, but adds some serious oomph to the process...

[Miss Mousie]

Miss Mousie, what kind of questions do ask your son?

 

What I am interested in with my student is his opinion. I couldn't give a flying rip about comprehension questions because I can tell by the discussion whether or not he read the book.

 

If you can get an overall sense of the student's feelings about the book, you can reel them in. Ambivalence is workable too.

 

So they really don't like book, what don't they like?

 

The characters bug you? Anyone in particular? At what point did you know you didn't like Horatio? Show me in the text. Anything else make you not like Horatio?

 

These aren't the best examples, but if you work from their opinions of the plot, the characters, the setting, the dialogue, the end, or whatever, they don't have to rack their brains for answers. If your eyes aren't glued to a teacher's guide, it's less intimidating. Have them show you the points in the text that helped them form their opinions.

 

You want them thinking about the work and relating to it. If they can't relate to it, they'll probably produce some very good analysis in telling you why they don't like a character, or the plot, or the dialogue.

 

Ds and I have done literary analysis together for years and ours looks more like me saying, "Okay, I read this passage and I don't know what to make of it."  "On one hand I can see where she's coming from, but the idea kind of makes my skin crawl."  Or my son will exclaim, "What an a--!" about a character and I'll raise an eyebrow and say "Really, I am not sure I saw that, so convince me."  The boy knows I don't have all the answers and is fairly comfortable disproving whatever I've announced.

 

With time, you'll both get it. Don't make it rigid and really listen to his answers. He might surprise you with something that's not in the lit guide and yet you think he is spot on.

 

Thanks so much for your response, Lisa!  Regarding the bolded - what do you do when it's clear he hasn't read the book?  My son will protest, of course, that he did read the book but just doesn't remember, and then I'll say "just moving your eyes over the words is not enough, you actually have to read to understand what is happening."  And then he will insist that he got it when he was reading but just can't remember now (the next morning).  So then I remind him that he should stop every page or two, look away from the text, and try to summarize for himself what just happened.  And then I demonstrate.  I know he doesn't do it, but of necessity he does his reading while I'm at work, so I can't remind him/watch him/prompt him in the moment.  And so we go around again....  This happens quite a bit more often than I would like! 

 

To get started, I might ask him to quickly summarize (like a 3-sentence overview) of the basic plot.  Usually this gets deer-in-the-headlights even though it's meant to be a very surface-level intro just to get us back into the story.  If he can't even attempt that, then I'll break it down:  tell me about one character (name? how is this person important to the story?).  That sort of thing.  By now we're both starting to feel frustrated, him probably because he's trying to figure out exactly what I want, and because he seems to gloss over people's names when he's reading, so he might be able to identify a character as "the guy who put the stuff in the tree for her to find."  "'Her' who?" "Ummm.... the girl..."  "Do you mean Scout?"  "Right, Scout." etc.  So then I try to move to how Boo Radley is important to the story ... and the frustration builds on both ends.  As I said, this is intended to be just an easy intro into discussion, rather than starting straight out with "tell me something you liked or didn't like," because that seems to be too big of a question, and suddenly the entire book flies out of his head.

 

I don't use guidebooks.  I just wing it.  I try to keep a mental list of general questions, ones I've seen on Socratic question websites or ones from SWB, but they seem to fly out of my brain just when I need them.

 

We have a lot of important things fly out of our heads at crucial times.  ;)   Suddenly I'm reminded of Nan's description of herself as "sieve-brained." 

 

Once in awhile I'll ask him to fill out a basic plot chart - main characters, plot development, possible themes - but he really seems to dislike that (but hasn't yet been able to tell me exactly why he dislikes it).  I do find it helpful sometimes to have him do that anyway, because then when we're ready to discuss we only need a quick review of the sheet to get us back in the right mindset.

 

Wow, this got long-winded.  Thank you so much for helping me think this through!  I'd love to know your further thoughts....

[Miss Mousie]

 

Here's a good thread that has more ideas on sparking discussion; my post in there repeats some of what's in this post, BUT, I linked other more threads on "what discussion looks like":  How do you encourage independent thinking and discussion?

 

 

Lori, I re-read the above thread last night.  Wow, there is so much great stuff in there!  Thanks for continually taking the time to link and re-link and type and re-type.  :)

 

I think my Big Problem here is two-fold:  (1) I have no idea what is an appropriate level to aim for (I was an English major, so I recall college literary discussion, but I remember next to nothing from high school or earlier); and (2) I just have to learn more patience.  I still have difficulty wrapping my mind around the notion that it takes YEARS to make noteworthy progress - but I am encouraged by many posters here that it will come, on some days, at some time, if we will keep plugging away at it.

[Lori D.]

On 4/14/2015 at 10:32 AM, Miss Mousie said:

…To get started, I might ask him to quickly summarize (like a 3-sentence overview) of the basic plot.  Usually this gets deer-in-the-headlights even though it's meant to be a very surface-level intro just to get us back into the story…. tell me about one character (name? how is this person important to the story?).  That sort of thing….

… So then I try to move to how Boo Radley is important to the story ... and the frustration builds on both ends.  As I said, this is intended to be just an easy intro into discussion, rather than starting straight out with "tell me something you liked or didn't like," because that seems to be too big of a question, and suddenly the entire book flies out of his head.

… Once in awhile I'll ask him to fill out a basic plot chart...

A chart is a great idea! And it sounds like you actually are doing a great job with facilitating and guiding discussion. (Maybe print out the questions you like and just keep handy with the book.. 😉

On 4/14/2015 at 10:32 AM, Miss Mousie said:

…"tell me something you liked or didn't like," because that seems to be too big of a question, and suddenly the entire book flies out of his head...

DS#1 was like this with writing; he absolutely needed very clear, specific "boundaries" for assignments -- creative writing or open-ended writing caused him to freeze up / shut down.

This may be way too open-ended for the way your DS thinks, esp. if he's a parts-to-whole thinker. If so, that means you have to start with a specific scene or moment in the chapter and work up to the big-picture "aha" moment. The "security" of a series of specific guided questions free him to be able to think.

I'm running a Lit & Comp. co-op class right now, and I've got the whole range of students; some jump right in and immediately see big picture themes and ideas, but for others -- usually the ones good at math, because math problems have just one answer (although there may be multiple ways of getting to that one answer 😉 -- the idea that there can be more than one thing going on in the Literature feels like quicksand to them.

I used Lit. guides to help guide through the process of series of questions from specific answers to being able to make a "thesis statement" answer, because it can be hard to think "in the moment" of how to break it down and guide a student towards being able to answer those open-ended questions...

I'll try and come back later when I have more time to give you a specific example...

On 4/14/2015 at 10:32 AM, Miss Mousie said:

… what do you do when it's clear he hasn't read the book?…  I demonstrate… 
… of necessity he does his reading while I'm at work, so I can't remind him/watch him/prompt him in the moment….
… This happens quite a bit more often than I would like! 

It sounds like getting the student reading with comprehension to be able to discuss may be some of the trouble.

Is he an auditory learner? Would he retain and comprehend better by hearing the book read aloud via audio book?

What about watching a film version first to get the basic plot and characters down, and THEN the reading can be for the nuances, literary devices, themes, etc… Together you could fill in your chart, and then refer to it each time you then go to discuss the book. That could also give you more discussion points: how did the film and book differ? what ideas were important in each? etc.

What about doing the reading aloud together? I know it's a massive pain and time-consuming, and will be difficult to schedule with you working, but then you'd definitely have his attention and focus right there. Sort of like the elementary-aged student who stares off into space and drops the pencil and generally avoids doing the math page and needing the parent *right there* saying, "great! and now do the next one…"

It's possible your DS is at a similar stage with reading Literature, and having you right at his elbow would keep him focused. Read the book aloud, alternating pages. Stop at points to digest and ask your questions. Stop at the end of the chapter, and discuss what his opinion is of what specifically a character did or said, how does something in the chapter repeat, or connect with, something that went before. Is there foreshadowing, and what does he predict might happen from here.

Once you do an entire book that way, try a short story and annotating -- you both do it, and come back and share annotations and discuss. Slowly step back (again, like the elementary student with math: "great! do the next problem the same way, and I'm going to go put a load of laundry in the machine and be right back…"), so you only do every other chapter out loud together, and then he's responsible to read the in-between ones and catch *you* up. Because you will have also read aloud together the alternate chapters, you can prompt with questions: "So, what happened to ______ in this chapter? What did you think of that choice? From your summary, I'm guessing that ______ will happen next -- what do you predict will happen?"

Otherwise, maybe a tutor can come in and do that one-on-one work with him?

Or maybe he needs a guided Literature program, where he has to answer questions in writing after each chapter, and that helps him focus, and gives you discussion points... ?

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Lori D.

[Miss Mousie]

Lori, thanks again!

 

I agree with you about reading aloud together.  We both enjoy books more that way and get more out of them - but I also agree with you that it is terribly time consuming.  He is currently reading Oliver Twist on his own, and I know he'd do much better with it if we read it together, but I'm feeling the pinch of the end of the year and don't want to sacrifice that much of our limited "together time" to just that task.  We did read Connecticut Yankee the way you described - a few chapters together, a few chapters on his own, then coming together for more shared reading - and that worked pretty well.  I just don't feel like I can do it every time - and I don't want it to become a crutch for him so that he can't develop his "wrangling difficult reading independently" skills.  ;)

 

I do spend time reading essays and short stories together, and I connect many of the longer writing assignments to these works rather than novels.  I guess my goal for novels right now is to gain familiarity and exposure and to increase the above-mentioned skills.  Next year I will probably start connecting at least some writing to novels.

 

Thanks again for your help!