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NYT - The Real Reason College Tuition Costs So Much


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Just want to add two data points from the public university where I teach:

 

80% of our state university system's budget is used for compensation (salaries, wages, and benefits).

Average raises for faculty salaries have been just around the inflation rate, or sometimes below.

 

In the decade 2001-2011, state funding to our school was reduced by 44%. During the same period, student numbers increased by 54%.

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I'm curious about the once upon a time when people could supposedly pay for it with a summer job.  That was not my father's experience.  He was born in 53. 

 

What one could earn with a summer job varies a lot, depending on the jobs available, which  in turn depends on the local employment rate.  When I was in high school, college kids from U of M got "real" jobs from April to September (yes, they ended in April).  By real, I mean something that paid slightly higher than minimum wage and offered 50-60 hours per week.  That doesn't happen today.

 

Minimum wage was $3.35  x 60 hrs per week x 16 weeks = $3216

 

From this chart:

https://www.law.umich.edu/historyandtraditions/students/Documents/Law_School_Tuition_History.pdf

 

U of M Law School Tuition in 1980 was $1004/semester

 

So, if you lived at home, it was definitely doable,  if you  lived at school it would be a stretch (but doable with a part time job during the year)

 

The last year they give data for is 2009, when tuition was $41K, which definitely could not be earned in a summer.

 

 

 

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When I attended a satellite campus of the University of Texas in the early 1990's (and lived off campus because it was a commuter school back then), the tuition was around $1500 for the semester. With my meager $1000 local civic scholarship and the savings from my summer job, I could easily afford the cost of school.

 

ETA: I just checked their website, and the estimated cost of attendance right now is over $23,000 per year.

This makes me sick to my stomach. This is so ridiculous.

 

My husband worked full time at Toys R Us while he lived at home and went to college (double major) and was able to pay for college (University of MD) and buy a compact car and a motorcycle at the same time. This was back in 1985-1989.

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I worked my way through college with mostly minimum wage jobs. My parents were dead so although I lived mostly "at home" (not on campus) it was a home that I had to provide myself.

 

I made enough in summer to cover all the school bills I had.

 

A year round, full time minimum wage job would not cover the tuition at our state universities today. It would cover the tuition at community colleges.

 

(Late 80s - early 90s)

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When I started at the University of California in the mid-80s, the tuition cost per quarter was between $300-400.  It went up to $500 per quarter by the time I left.  I knew lots of people who were able to pay for school by working full time during the summer and part time during the school year.

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I'm curious about the once upon a time when people could supposedly pay for it with a summer job.  That was not my father's experience.  He was born in 53. 

 

I went to a regional state university in the late 80's. Tuition, room, board & fees were just under $3000 per year ($5,952 when adjusted for inflation) I started, and just over that when I finished four years later. So, with a good job over Summer & Christmas it was possible for someone to pay their way through college. I just looked at their website and it is still a very reasonably priced university. Depending upon which housing and meal plans are chosen, tuition, fees, room & board range from $13746 - $17600 per year. I can't imagine any jobs where someone can earn that much money over college breaks. 

 

So, while it was definitely possible to earn enough money through summer and holiday jobs in the not so distant past, the same would not hold true today. Interestingly, when adjusted for inflation, I made significantly more per hour in college working retail than our state's current minimum wage (I also made significantly more than the minimum wage at the time, it wasn't impossible for people to get raises then). I think that says a lot about minimum wage, which is also probably a contributing factor to current students not being able to work their way through college. Minimum wage then was $3.25 per hour ($6.45 adjusted for inflation) and is now $7.25 per hour. So, adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage has risen only .80 per hour in 27 years. Teen unemployment was high then (25%) as well due to economic factors (currently it is 29% in my home state).  

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This article throws out a lot of numbers, but seems to have difficulty making a point:

 

"For example, the militaryĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s budget is about 1.8 times higher today than it was in 1960, while legislative appropriations to higher education are more than 10 times higher."

 

1960 seems like an odd baseline for this comparison, and comparing total college spending to military spending seems odd.  We need one military to defend our country, no matter how many citizens there are.  If the number of citizens magically doubled or halved, our military needs would be the roughly same.  But, it is reasonable to assume that college spending is going to depend on number of kids going to college, which is going to depend on the population, among other things.  What we all care about is the per-capita cost of college, not the total cost.

 

Also, the article talks about total "appropriation" for higher education, which apparently, include federal grant and loan programs, which seems disingenuous to me.  Sure, federal spending for these programs have gone up, but that's because prices have gone up, and if the support programs hadn't at least tried to keep up, the entire middle class would march on Washington with torches and pitchforks.  Some say the correlation goes the other way -- that generous loans encourage colleges to raise prices, but I'm not sure that's a causation.

 

Moreover, all of these articles always measure the "sticker price" for college, which has gone up dramatically, but may or may not be the actual price paid by any given student at any institution.  Not that college is cheap after scholarships, but how many people are really paying full freight for the $50k/year LACs?

 

 

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Moreover, all of these articles always measure the "sticker price" for college, which has gone up dramatically, but may or may not be the actual price paid by any given student at any institution.  Not that college is cheap after scholarships, but how many people are really paying full freight for the $50k/year LACs?

 

Taking into consideration increased enrollment and decreasing aid (scholarships and need-based), I think more people are paying full price (or taking out loans for it) than many of us realize. 

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Taking into consideration increased enrollment and decreasing aid (scholarships and need-based), I think more people are paying full price (or taking out loans for it) than many of us realize. 

 

Not to mention the foreign students who do not get aid from our government.

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Moreover, all of these articles always measure the "sticker price" for college, which has gone up dramatically, but may or may not be the actual price paid by any given student at any institution.  Not that college is cheap after scholarships, but how many people are really paying full freight for the $50k/year LACs?

On this point, I can say that I know several students and families that are paying near full freight and that is all financed through loans. The misnomer around here is that students can't take out more then a certain amount per year in loans without a co-signer and that is just not true. Sallie Mae will loan students into the low 6 figures without parents co-signing

 

Art schools in particular rely on full freight, rarely ever offering any kind of scholarship whatsoever, and the loan industry props them up...take away the loan industry and educate students better about the debt, and I can think of several institutions that would go under or make some serious changes in terms of helping students afford the school.

 

One college that has been trying to court our middle boy has a $40,000 a year NPC and a top scholarship of $8000.00. We don't qualify for need based aid. So yah...maybe not full freight if he got that scholarship, but $32,000 a year in either savings or loans. No thank you. That's 80% of the freight through debt. It is a Christian school that regularly touts to parents that sending your child to the cheaper public uni's or secular LAC's that offer more money is a one way ticket to hell in an attempt to guilt parents and students into taking on an awful lot of debt. I know people who have done it and their kids didn't even get the top scholarship so yes, they are paying 90%  freight and in debt up to their eyeballs. The institution's average student loan debt is nearly $30,000 per graduate, but the untold story is the parent debt which I managed to finally drag that average out of them...well more than $40,000 for the parents as well.

 

That's the thing about student loan debt. It doesn't cover parent plus loans, re-mortgages in order to finance school, or parents borrowing from retirement accounts to pay for school and those payments to repay themselves so they don't incur tax penalties. I think that schools should have to also report parent indebtedness averages. This would be an eye opener for a LOT of people.

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I'm curious about the once upon a time when people could supposedly pay for it with a summer job.  That was not my father's experience.  He was born in 53. 

 

I did not pay my tuition myself, because my father felt strongly about paying for it. His decisions on that arose out of his own family issues. He had parents who had graduate degrees who activity hindered his ability to get through college, by refusing to provide financial disclosure for scholarships he'd earned -- he was a minor so he needed their signatures and data at that time and then charging him a large rent to live at home and go to school. He moved out and found cheaper rent and finished engineering school while working full time. Anyway, he was adamant his dc would not deal with that.

 

I was well aware of tuition costs and well aware of the gift I was being given. I regularly compared tuition costs to my earnings as a lifeguard.

 

I made way more than needed to pay the bill at the local university (George Mason) and live at home rent free. I did attend GMU full time as a senior in high school, while living at home and working 20 hours a week as a lifeguard at an indoor facility.

 

Working full time in the summer, I earned more than the cost of tuition, room and board at VA Tech where my siblings attended.

 

Working full time in the summer and as a TA in labs during the year I earned most, but not all that would have been needed for William and Mary where I attended.

 

Since I didn't pay my tuition, my father's gift allowed me to do summer abroad, pay for extras and pay for housing when I got my MEd in sp ed (I had a scholarship for tuition). I had a pretty healthy bank account when I got married and paid off dh's private school and law school loans. I am very grateful for the opportunities I was provided.

 

I had classmates who had to pay for it all themselves and they did do it without student loans. They didn't get to do the extras I did, but they did get good educations without student loans. I did know a guy who took out small loans every year, in addition to working. Without getting into details I knew him well enough to know he was by  no means a frugal student and he could have gotten by without loans. That said, I think he graduated with less than 4K in loans in 1987. I had another friend who graduated with less than 2K in loans and put himself on a payment plan to pay them off within 6 months of graduating because back then no interest accrued before you were out of school for 6 months.

 

I was born in 1966. I do believe that at the time I attended college my state (Virginia) had some of the cheapest high quality options. With tuition increases in state tuition in this state is no longer the bargain it once was.

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Thinking out loud, I'd rather think of the problem as increasing price rather than increasing costs.  We might also compare per-capita price to per-capita cost for state schools, though I'm not sure the former information is actually available; wide differences in individual financing plans, especially loans, make aggregate price information complicated to calculate, even if all students' plans were available info.

 

Without actually researching anything (I have an excuse to be lazy today :tongue_smilie:), I'd first look at basic supply vs. demand, and increased demand due to population growth sounds reasonable vs steady supply of schools, plus demand from foreign students.  On top of the increased demand, individual demand seems relatively inelastic to price in this market due to financing options coupled with increasing cultural expectations and the state of the employment market.

 

Lack of transparent information = market inefficiency.  The issue with sticker price vs. financial aid gums up the efficient functioning of the market.  One never really knows for sure what the cost will be until that financial award is in-hand after acceptance.

 

Another insufficient-information market inefficiency is the value of the education and degree to the individual, which varies by field, location, school and of course personal plans/hopes, though that has always been the case, AFAIK.  One would think the internet age would help this angle more than it seems to have helped.

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The most interesting thing about the article is it claims the rise is cost is mostly due to the increased number of administrators.  It claims that CSU went from about 1 administrator per 3 full-faculty members to about 1 to 1!, from 1975 to 2008.  I'm curious what the ratios would be if instead of comparing to full-time faculty, to compare to "everyone who teaches".  We know there's been a huge increase in adjuncts and other part-time instructional staff -- I just googled, and currently, 50% of the instructors at CSU are part time.  Is there really that much of a rise in administrators?  Who are they, and what do they do?

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My dad paid for college for three kids between 1974 and 1986( one salary, strictly middle class). Sparkly, my husband was born shortly after your dad. He had a full scholarship( NY Regents) and used the extra to buy a motorcycle. He worked part time tho, and was still able to pay for his wife's entire education. It's not doable for hardly anyone  today, at least those that have no school close enough to live at home. That's why we told Walt it was necessary to play the game, jump through all the boring, miserable hoops in order to have a chance at any merit awards available.He's a bright kid who knew grad school was on his timeline, and we all decided burdening him( and us) with tens of thousands of dollars for an undergraduate degree was not worth it. It took much time to get to that point, but he lucked out with a very good school and is happy with the decision.

 

My father's parents would not fill out the financial aid paperwork.  He went to UCONN for one year, but just could not earn enough to pay for it. 

 

But my dad did make a livable wage working in a factory.  He was trained on the job.  That place no longer exists and the skills aren't in demand anymore either.

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The most interesting thing about the article is it claims the rise is cost is mostly due to the increased number of administrators.  It claims that CSU went from about 1 administrator per 3 full-faculty members to about 1 to 1!, from 1975 to 2008.  I'm curious what the ratios would be if instead of comparing to full-time faculty, to compare to "everyone who teaches".  We know there's been a huge increase in adjuncts and other part-time instructional staff -- I just googled, and currently, 50% of the instructors at CSU are part time.  Is there really that much of a rise in administrators?  Who are they, and what do they do?

That would be very interesting to know wouldn't it? I know that the PS system in the states is quite heavy on the number of administrators and administrative assistants per teacher compared to Europe.

 

The sheer number of paper pushers at my local elementary school is staggering, but they can always find a teaching position to eliminate. Management never eliminates management.

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That would be very interesting to know wouldn't it? I know that the PS system in the states is quite heavy on the number of administrators and administrative assistants per teacher compared to Europe.

 

The sheer number of paper pushers at my local elementary school is staggering, but they can always find a teaching position to eliminate. Management never eliminates management.

You noticed that too, eh?

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What one could earn with a summer job varies a lot, depending on the jobs available, which in turn depends on the local employment rate. When I was in high school, college kids from U of M got "real" jobs from April to September (yes, they ended in April). By real, I mean something that paid slightly higher than minimum wage and offered 50-60 hours per week. That doesn't happen today.

 

Minimum wage was $3.35 x 60 hrs per week x 16 weeks = $3216

 

From this chart:

https://www.law.umich.edu/historyandtraditions/students/Documents/Law_School_Tuition_History.pdf

 

U of M Law School Tuition in 1980 was $1004/semester

 

So, if you lived at home, it was definitely doable, if you lived at school it would be a stretch (but doable with a part time job during the year)

 

The last year they give data for is 2009, when tuition was $41K, which definitely could not be earned in a summer.

To add to this with an anecdote, not only did my husband's parents pay instate and out of state tuition with summer jobs in the 70's at U of Mich, he paid out of state tuition on his Masters from there, with zero loans, graduating in 2001. Working a high paying summer job, saving like a madman, and piling extra classes into each semester to finish one early, he managed to do it.

 

That is nearly impossible now, even making $30K or more per summer as he was.

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And I'd like to add that in our area, college students are not getting jobs that pay more than minimum wage on top of which they only get 15 hrs. max per week. High school students can shuck corn for a month in the summer - and maybe get a few lawns to mow or dogs to walk. Working to save for college is not an option around here. There are just too many once stay-at-home parents taking on part time jobs, older, maybe with degrees, work experience even if they've been out of the force for a while, and so the young and or inexperienced can't get jobs anymore to say nothing of the very experienced workers who unemployment ran out and have taken jobs that once belonged to the high school/college student demographic.

 

If one were lucky enough to land a 15 hr. per week, minimum wage job for Memorial Day through Labor Day which is typically when seasonal workers increase around here, that's about $112.00 a week for 14 weeks. Take gas and withholding out of it, there isn't a whole lot left to put on a school bill. Usually, the student is better off cramming classes into the summer and trying really, really hard to graduate a year early with online coursework. Sometimes early graduation saves them a bit of money because they can live at home and do it instead of in the dorms for two more semesters of traditional schooling.

 

I know of two college age students that are trying to work their way through....they are trying to figure out how to graduate in seven years. They have to because credits start expiring after seven if the student has not earned a degree by then. These kids are barely eating enough food to keep themselves going, and driving cars that are downright dangerous. It's not something I would want my child to do. I'd be having them finish high school through DE and going back into the workforce to pay for college before I would let them take the risks.

 

In my particular area, the bankruptcy of Detroit and near bankruptcy of Flint have had a horrible effect on the ability of young people to get a leg up for college, vo-tech, or any other post high school option.

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And I'd like to add that in our area, college students are not getting jobs that pay more than minimum wage on top of which they only get 15 hrs. max per week. High school students can shuck corn for a month in the summer - and maybe get a few lawns to mow or dogs to walk. Working to save for college is not an option around here. There are just too many once stay-at-home parents taking on part time jobs, older, maybe with degrees, work experience even if they've been out of the force for a while, and so the young and or inexperienced can't get jobs anymore to say nothing of the very experienced workers who unemployment ran out and have taken jobs that once belonged to the high school/college student demographic.

 

If one were lucky enough to land a 15 hr. per week, minimum wage job for Memorial Day through Labor Day which is typically when seasonal workers increase around here, that's about $112.00 a week for 14 weeks. Take gas and withholding out of it, there isn't a whole lot left to put on a school bill. Usually, the student is better off cramming classes into the summer and trying really, really hard to graduate a year early with online coursework. Sometimes early graduation saves them a bit of money because they can live at home and do it instead of in the dorms for two more semesters of traditional schooling.

 

I know of two college age students that are trying to work their way through....they are trying to figure out how to graduate in seven years. They have to because credits start expiring after seven if the student has not earned a degree by then. These kids are barely eating enough food to keep themselves going, and driving cars that are downright dangerous. It's not something I would want my child to do. I'd be having them finish high school through DE and going back into the workforce to pay for college before I would let them take the risks.

 

In my particular area, the bankruptcy of Detroit and near bankruptcy of Flint have had a horrible effect on the ability of young people to get a leg up for college, vo-tech, or any other post high school option.

Yeah I don't believe I'm from the time period when people could pay for college with their summer job, but I never made much money.  I worked close to 40 hours, but never more and sometimes not even close because part time gigs are just like that.  They don't want to give FT hours and absolutely not OT.  The pay was very low.  And it is not like I could spend every dime on school.  I had other expenses. 

 

 

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My dh works at a community college.  Some administration jobs that wouldn't have existed in the 80's are for technology.  There is a ton of technology for colleges these days.  Classrooms and study areas outfitted with computers and projectors and software for online classes, blah blah blah.  I don't even know what it all involves, but there's a lot of tech in colleges that never was there before.  In the 80's people used typewriters and mimeograph machines.  It's different now.

 

Tech is expensive.

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My dh works at a community college.  Some administration jobs that wouldn't have existed in the 80's are for technology.  There is a ton of technology for colleges these days.  Classrooms and study areas outfitted with computers and projectors and software for online classes, blah blah blah.  I don't even know what it all involves, but there's a lot of tech in colleges that never was there before.  In the 80's people used typewriters and mimeograph machines.  It's different now.

 

Tech is expensive.

 

Are you saying that the IT guys at a college count as "administrators"? 

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Are you saying that the IT guys at a college count as "administrators"? 

I don't know if they would count as administrators specifically, but like administrative assistants, be a part of "administration" so could account for a portion of the growing size of administration departments.

 

I know that a friend that is the head IT guy at the local school district is considered, in terms of departmental classification, "administration". So I would imagine the term could cover any number of workers like that including business office personnel, receptionists, etc.

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The whole thing is mind boggling.  I went to a nearby LAC, and when I attended in the 90's, tuition, room, board, and fees averaged about $15k per year.  Now, the same school costs about $38k per year. 

 

DS wants to attend a nearby state university where the tuition would still be affordable for us, as long as he lives at home and the costs don't double again in the next few years.  It's just hard to imagine the increases continuing much longer.

 

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A relative works in administration at a very large public university.  Director of a group of about a dozen individuals who work with community groups and partnerships to connect students w/ volunteer opportunities while also implementing programs to implement social justice and help students analyze their biases, perspectives and values and how those things impact what they do.  Very good salary, very good benefits.  

 

So, "administration" definitely stretches beyond what most of us would consider strictly administrative (running the college!) tasks. 

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Both articles make some good points but they are one theme positions. I would really like to see a well researched Atlantic Monthly article that went into all the main contributors to increased college costs and then ask for ideas how to get us away from this train-wreck that we are on.

 

By the way the comments add a lot to the NYT article such as:

 

"Teaching is taking a back seat -- not to research, but to nice buildings, sports teams, administrative bloat, marketing, etc, etc, on and on. The University is being run like a business, with the goal of getting more consumers, not creating better educated citizens"

 

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A relative works in administration at a very large public university.  Director of a group of about a dozen individuals who work with community groups and partnerships to connect students w/ volunteer opportunities while also implementing programs to implement social justice and help students analyze their biases, perspectives and values and how those things impact what they do.  Very good salary, very good benefits.  

 

So, "administration" definitely stretches beyond what most of us would consider strictly administrative (running the college!) tasks. 

Outside of the core mission of a college - this should be done by a charitable organization not the college!

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Both articles make some good points but they are one theme positions. I would really like to see a well researched Atlantic Monthly article that went into all the main contributors to increased college costs and then ask for ideas how to get us away from this train-wreck that we are on.

 

By the way the comments add a lot to the NYT article such as:

 

"Teaching is taking a back seat -- not to research, but to nice buildings, sports teams, administrative bloat, marketing, etc, etc, on and on. The University is being run like a business, with the goal of getting more consumers, not creating better educated citizens"

 

 

I asked around at my University why they felt the need for the stadium and the landscaping.  The answer I always got was to impress visiting high school kids into coming there.  Of course, I wasn't asking the President of the University.  I also remember that they changed their logo while I was there.  They had an unveiling of the logo in which there were door prizes like TV's.  Made me ill.  

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I dont mind the nice buildings. The building I rehearsed in for music was a temp building that looked like a wooden army barracks on the outside...constructed prior to WWII, had flaking no doubt lead based paint, and certainly not energy efficient.The dorm I stayed in was 35 years old, built shortly after WWII, but the state had deferred enough maintenance even then that water came 4 feet into my room every time it rained....and I was on the lee side, third floor. Its been 30 additional years and I wouldnt wish that situation on anyone, although it did help my roommate learn to keep her clothes picked up. Time for properly designed buildings that dont waste as much energy and require less maintenance. Less costly to knock them down than try to retrofit.

I do agree with this. Buildings need to be up to code, safe, and provide good shelter. I like the idea of energy efficient buildings where possible though maybe would not be in favor of knocking down historical buildings that can't be made over...still...a solar array instead of football field would be A OKay with me, and geothermal heat. I mean if you are going to tear up the place to put in Aetna's new ego based building project, do something nice for the environment please!  :D

 

I am against the massive costs of "glory" and ego. My alma mater has some buildings with marble tile, granite counter tops, chandeliers, and such. Sorry, not a fan. But, I have a feeling that these things came by way of designated funds that got some person or business name on a plaque along with an expensive thank you dinner. Sigh....Why can't they give that money to the students?

 

I had the radiator from Hades. It couldn't be turned off, and heated the room to 80 degrees all year long. By mid-March, I slept with the windows open, my door opened to the hallway, and without anything but a sheet in order to survive. My roommate moved home.  I wouldn't wish it on someone else, but then again, it was probably character building. :lol:

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"Teaching is taking a back seat -- not to research, but to nice buildings, sports teams, administrative bloat, marketing, etc, etc, on and on. The University is being run like a business, with the goal of getting more consumers, not creating better educated citizens"

 

I believe this is absolutely true.  Education has become a business with the main goal being more profits for the education administrators, textbook publishers, loan companies, etc., as opposed to a better education for students.

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The University is being run like a business, with the goal of getting more consumers, not creating better educated citizens"

 

It is easy and fun to get worked up and say stuff like the bolded, but is it really true?  My alma mater (and most, I suspect) don't seem to have any interest in getting more consumers/students: their enrollment numbers have been roughly the same for the last 30 years.  If they had, say, doubled enrollment, all other things being equal, cost per student would probably go down.

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Outside of the core mission of a college - this should be done by a charitable organization not the college!

 

Engaging students in the community (region, state and world) through service is part of the mission statement of the college where my son will attend. Not all learning occurs in a formal academic setting and we are not paying for an education that, quite frankly, we could accomplish on our own. My son could read college textbooks and take online courses to achieve a college degree. However, our goal is education, not just obtaining a degree. The university experience (both in and out of a classroom) is a tool that he will use to further his education. My son has chosen a university with a rich, diverse program where interdisciplinary work is encouraged (an industrial design student will work with biology, physics and physical therapy majors while designing a medical device, for example). Interestingly enough, the program for his intended major (Industrial Design) is in the College of Fine & Applied Arts and is the most practical, hands on industrial design program we saw or read about.

 

One of the goals of the university is to have students who "think critically, communicate effectively, make local to global connections and understand the responsibilities of community engagement." That can't all happen in a classroom. In fact, the university openly states that only half of the student learning will occur in a classroom setting.  Our son  will get a liberal arts education through the gen ed program, which is set up so that students can follow a theme through a specific subject area so that they can go deeper into an area that interests them while still being exposed to a wide variety of subjects. He will also get a very practical hands-on education in his desired area of study, which, when completed, will help position him for his future.

 

While I can't remember the exact number, somewhere close to 80% of the students at this university participate in a study abroad program or an international service project while they are enrolled. There are several different types to choose from. The university students clock roughly 100,000 cumulative hours of volunteer time annually in a wide variety of settings. I have no problem with the university employing administrators to seek out reputable and beneficial opportunities for the students to participate in.

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Engaging students in the community (region, state and world) through service is part of the mission statement of the college where my son will attend. Not all learning occurs in a formal academic setting and we are not paying for an education that, quite frankly, we could accomplish on our own. My son could read college textbooks and take online courses to achieve a college degree. However, our goal is education, not just obtaining a degree. The university experience (both in and out of a classroom) is a tool that he will use to further his education. My son has chosen a university with a rich, diverse program where interdisciplinary work is encouraged (an industrial design student will work with biology, physics and physical therapy majors while designing a medical device, for example). Interestingly enough, the program for his intended major (Industrial Design) is in the College of Fine & Applied Arts and is the most practical, hands on industrial design program we saw or read about.

 

One of the goals of the university is to have students who "think critically, communicate effectively, make local to global connections and understand the responsibilities of community engagement." That can't all happen in a classroom. In fact, the university openly states that only half of the student learning will occur in a classroom setting.  Our son  will get a liberal arts education through the gen ed program, which is set up so that students can follow a theme through a specific subject area so that they can go deeper into an area that interests them while still being exposed to a wide variety of subjects. He will also get a very practical hands-on education in his desired area of study, which, when completed, will help position him for his future.

 

While I can't remember the exact number, somewhere close to 80% of the students at this university participate in a study abroad program or an international service project while they are enrolled. There are several different types to choose from. The university students clock roughly 100,000 cumulative hours of volunteer time annually in a wide variety of settings. I have no problem with the university employing administrators to seek out reputable and beneficial opportunities for the students to participate in.

Here, here!!! :hurray:  :hurray: :hurray:  

 

I can't afford to buy the research boat that MTU has on Lake Superior right now, nor do I have the expertise to assist ds in conducting research even if I could afford one. There is WAY more to the educational process at a good college or university than just listening to a lecture and regurgitating facts. Way more! That's what we are paying for, and that fact is not lost on us as we try to navigate these whitewater rapids of rising tuition costs and stagnating wages.

 

I don't regret a penny of what we contributed to dd's degree at U of MI. I won't regret it for my sons either so long as we choose, and as the great knight of "Indiana Jones 3 says", "but choose wisely."

 

I do think it's money down the hole for a lot of kids to do mostly degrees by testing out, online coursework, and such. They miss out on a wealth of experience. But, for some, that is the best path...I know gainfully employed adults who simply need the paper in order to advance in the company or remain employed due to stricter hiring and retention practices. For them, that type of quickie degree serves a purpose. It is not what we want for our children however.

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My dh works at a community college. Some administration jobs that wouldn't have existed in the 80's are for technology. There is a ton of technology for colleges these days. Classrooms and study areas outfitted with computers and projectors and software for online classes, blah blah blah. I don't even know what it all involves, but there's a lot of tech in colleges that never was there before. In the 80's people used typewriters and mimeograph machines. It's different now.

 

Tech is expensive.

I'll have you know in the 80's we had "word processors" :). They looked like typewriters, but had had a tiny screen in which you could see the line you keyboarded. It was high tech! We also used copy machines..not private ones, but the library or a buisness that made copies for all. One of them had a name that rhymed with stinkos.

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I can't afford to buy the research boat that MTU has on Lake Superior right now, nor do I have the expertise to assist ds in conducting research even if I could afford one. There is WAY more to the educational process at a good college or university than just listening to a lecture and regurgitating facts. Way more! That's what we are paying for, and that fact is not lost on us as we try to navigate these whitewater rapids of rising tuition costs and stagnating wages.

 

But, I think there's a qualitative difference between a research experience, like the MTU boat, and what is, essentially, a secularized mission trip.  The first seems key to the University's mission (and difficult to reproduce outside the university setting).  The latter, however, seems easy to reproduce at home, or outside the university setting.

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Moreover, all of these articles always measure the "sticker price" for college, which has gone up dramatically, but may or may not be the actual price paid by any given student at any institution.  Not that college is cheap after scholarships, but how many people are really paying full freight for the $50k/year LACs?

 

Maybe it is bad form to follow up one's one post, but I found the numbers very interesting in the post about tiny Sweet Briar College, a tiny LAC who is forced to close.  Their fees are listed at $45k/year, but the average discount for all incoming freshman rose to almost 60% over the last few years.  Obviously, 60% off from $45k is still a ton of money, but it shows that college sticker prices may be even less reliable than car sticker prices.

 

Oh, and here is more data:  The average discount rate for private schools is 46%.

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Taking into consideration increased enrollment and decreasing aid (scholarships and need-based), I think more people are paying full price (or taking out loans for it) than many of us realize. 

Yes a loan is not a scholarship or grant and IMHO should not be called "aid".  When I got the mortgage on my house nobody used the term "aid".

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But, I think there's a qualitative difference between a research experience, like the MTU boat, and what is, essentially, a secularized mission trip.  The first seems key to the University's mission (and difficult to reproduce outside the university setting).  The latter, however, seems easy to reproduce at home, or outside the university setting.

 

Do you have the connections, knowledge and experience to determine which of the thousands of opportunities available to you are the best suited for any given person, matching their interests? Do you have the ability to provide a group of peers that have similar interests? Are you confident that a trip will be "as advertised"? Will you be the Ph.D. that allows a student to co-publish with them regarding their experiences? Will you be able to provide a faculty member who has expertise, either in knowledge or skill, to provide any needed training for the students before the trip, to teach on the trip and to continue to mentor the students upon return to the university setting? Can you develop relationships over time that builds confidence of the local citizens in the abilities of the group that will be coming to assist them - so that they know "That group is from xyz university, so they will do a great job?" Do you have the ability to undertake a long term project, sending different students or groups of students down in shifts to continue a project over a period of months or years? Will you be able to assess college course information written in languages other than your own so that you can advise students which courses they should take when they are overseas in order to have them apply to the student's degree program? Do you have a familiarity with various universities around the world so that you can help a student find a good fit, both academically and socially so that they will succeed?  Do you know other educators so well that they are willing to let your student use their multi-million dollar equipment for their project or research, knowing that you would not send them an irresponsible student? Do you know how to navigate international travel, including when/where visas are needed, which visas should be obtained, where to get the visas and how to handle emergencies that might arise while the student is in-country? Do you know what type of insurance the student needs to make sure they have before they leave the country? Can you find suitable housing with confidence?

 

It takes hours/days/months to learn the needed info for a beneficial service/academic trip. There are people that already know the answers to these questions and many more that the average person wouldn't even know to ask because they have experience in their field, which is assisting students in finding appropriate educational and/or service opportunities that match a student's interests, abilities and goals. I have no problem paying someone for their expertise. Why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to? 

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It is easy and fun to get worked up and say stuff like the bolded, but is it really true? My alma mater (and most, I suspect) don't seem to have any interest in getting more consumers/students: their enrollment numbers have been roughly the same for the last 30 years. If they had, say, doubled enrollment, all other things being equal, cost per student would probably go down.

If they can get people to pay more for those exact same spots, they're a smart business indeed.

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 Are you confident that a trip will be "as advertised"? Will you be the Ph.D. that allows a student to co-publish with them regarding their experiences? 

 

I am pretty confident that most study abroad trips are not as advertised.  Sure, they are fun, and students may learn a bit about foreign culture, but most that I've seen have really just been long-form vacations.  I'm sure there's some value it in, but I'm not paying $10k a year extra for the experience.  As far as volunteer hours, you don't need expensive university oversight to work at Habitat, your local soup kitchen, or any one of a number of worthy places.  Moreover, I question the value here also wrt the college experience -- I want my kids in college to focus on their studies, and I really question the educational value of racking up hundreds of thousands of hours of volunteer service.  Their "full time job" is their studies.

 

I do think that, for many areas of study, a semester or year-long paid internship is incredibly valuable.  However, the university doesn't need to organize much for these to work well, and shouldn't be trying to replicate the experience.

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Moreover, I question the value here also wrt the college experience -- I want my kids in college to focus on their studies, and I really question the educational value of racking up hundreds of thousands of hours of volunteer service.  Their "full time job" is their studies.

 

I think perhaps I have a broader definition of education than you do. I don't think education is limited to formal academic studies and one can learn (in other words, become educated) quite a bit about the world as a by-product of volunteer service. I have spent thousands of hours doing volunteer work at this point in my life. The work I have done has provided services to people and has allowed organizations to direct funds to other areas of need and along the way I have gained some pretty valuable work experience and learned more about myself than I possibly could have sitting in a classroom. Classrooms do not provide real world experience.

 

Students  considering university solely for the purpose of broadening employment opportunities would be wise to realize that employers want employees who know more than what is in between the covers of a book. One can read about sustainable agriculture, or one can read about it and do volunteer work on a farm in an underdeveloped country, where sustainable agriculture is the only type of agriculture possible due to various limitations. Which person would be 1) better rounded as a human being 2) more likely to know whether or not they want to work in agriculture  3) have a proven work ethic 4) more likely to be employed in an agriculture related field?

 

I won't further argue the point, because I do believe that we truly have a difference of what it means to be educated and that perhaps you see some methods of attaining an education to be superior to others, I don't know.  

 

I do wonder, though, since you say you question the value of a college experience, are your students planning on attending college? If so, they will have a college experience, whether or not you think it's valuable. I hope they make it the best it can be. 

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At hubby's Tier 1 university, they are trying to raise awareness about socioeconomic diversity. 

 

The other day I was there with the kids and saw a sign, "Have you ever not signed up for a class because you couldn't afford the books? I have." That hit me like a punch to the gut. That would be awful. The core mission of the student at university being compromised for the (comparatively) low cost of books?

 

Later I saw a sign, "I didn't go on the house trip because I couldn't afford it." Somehow that was supposed to make me feel sorry for the person, but as someone who budgets (and doesn't do certain things because they aren't important enough), all I could manage was, "Wow, that's entitlement for you."

 

Since the university apparently thinks these statements should both be calls to action and pity, I think there are problems.

 

Emily

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At hubby's Tier 1 university, they are trying to raise awareness about socioeconomic diversity. 

 

The other day I was there with the kids and saw a sign, "Have you ever not signed up for a class because you couldn't afford the books? I have." That hit me like a punch to the gut. That would be awful. The core mission of the student at university being compromised for the (comparatively) low cost of books?

 

Later I saw a sign, "I didn't go on the house trip because I couldn't afford it." Somehow that was supposed to make me feel sorry for the person, but as someone who budgets (and doesn't do certain things because they aren't important enough), all I could manage was, "Wow, that's entitlement for you."

 

Since the university apparently thinks these statements should both be calls to action and pity, I think there are problems.

 

I do not interpret the statement about the house trip as "entitlement".

The socioeconomic differences at these schools are huge. One student works three jobs to put herself through school, while a classmate's parents have bought her a million dollar apartment downtown.

Being unable to go out to eat with the fellow students in your house once a month (which is what "house trip" entails in DD's house) may not be the most severe problem for a poor student, but it does set them apart from others - making students at the upper end of the socioeconomic spectrum aware of it is a good thing.

 

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