Stanford: Free Tuition For Families Making Under 125K/Full Ride Under 65K

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, commitment of time and expenses are definitely there. I still think it is different from suggesting that kids need to be involved in dance, music, etc at an intense level. Those types of commitments are huge $$ activities. (My kids' ice skating is severely limited due to cost. In comparison, my son's physics and astronomy pursuits were cheap.)

 

But, simple reality is admissions is going to want a determined individual exemplifying that deep character trait. Being a smart academic isn't going to be enough.

 

Even the other activities mentioned involve more money than a lot of people could devote to it. 

 

My son wants to learn more about robotics.  I'd love to go out and buy him a bunch of robotics stuff.  All that stuff is expensive though so best I can do is have him come up with very specific affordable project ideas.  Growing up if I had been interested, best I would have gotten is a suggestion to walk 3 miles to the library (and probably not find much in the way of a book on robotics). 

 

I was very thin as a child.  Guess it was all that walking!  LOL

[SeaConquest]

Yes, commitment of time and expenses are definitely there. I still think it is different from suggesting that kids need to be involved in dance, music, etc at an intense level. Those types of commitments are huge $$ activities. (My kids' ice skating is severely limited due to cost. In comparison, my son's physics and astronomy pursuits were cheap.)

 

But, simple reality is admissions is going to want a determined individual exemplifying that deep character trait. Being a smart academic isn't going to be enough.

 

This is so so important. Years later, I could go through my undergrad and law school friends on FB and tell you what their hook was because these passions were intrinsic to who they are as people (even today).

 

Tiphanie: obsessed with virology, worked in a frightening (to me) infectious diseases lab at the CDC 

Kate: played in the WNBA, future bb coach

Carolyn: the German lit PhD and national security expert

Jake: the Mandarin-speaking journalist in Beijing/pro-democracy activist/part-time J Crew model

Andy: politics, politics, politics, worked extensively on the Hill and for the Gov of AZ

Christian: the astrophysicist, constitutional law geek

Me: the Russia, Army Special Ops, feminism girl

 

Dmmetler's daughter: the snake girl

EoO's son: the enviromentalist

 

High grades and test scores are not a hook; they are a given (but minor variations in stats do not play as big a role as people believe). To be competitive for elite schools (to the extent that this is the goal), help your child to develop their own deep and abiding interest. It doesn't have to be the cure for cancer, or something that costs tons of $$$, but an adcom should be able to sum up your child's unique hook in one phrase. Like it or not, that is how these classes are assembled.  

[wapiti]

For anyone who hasn't read it yet, the MIT blog entry Applying Sideways is instructive on hooks.

 

Similarly, I liked Newport's How to be a High School Superstar, albeit with a grain of salt regarding some of the examples.  One positive example that stood out to me was the girl who developed an interest by spending a summer working in the research lab of her neighbor professor.  Without looking it up, I'd guess that such activity may have involved foregoing a paying summer job and, of course, happening to know the right people, but there's also an element of creating one's opportunities.

[creekland]

But, simple reality is admissions is going to want a determined individual exemplifying that deep character trait. Being a smart academic isn't going to be enough.

 

And this is the key.  No one is saying it's easy for anyone to get into a super tippy top school.

 

It's just not impossible for the right student either.  As mentioned before, several Hive kids have been in the accepted crowd.

 

It can be easier when a parent has the ability to pay for extras, though I'm not sure the odds are better (applications/acceptances).  It could be interesting to see the actual odds by income level.

 

Many of us on here who have been offering suggestions aren't doing it to PROVE anyone can get in.  We're doing it to assist those who want to try for it.

 

If one is determined they can't possibly get in, they are probably correct.  Can't has never been in a determined student's vocab - at least - not any I've come across.

 

It took my middle son until the middle (toward the end) of 2nd grade to be able to read basic words like "was" or "went" as he had a language disability when he was young (speaking and reading) and couldn't pronounce (or read) over half the letters in the alphabet.  Even at that young of an age (in therapy from age 4 - 7) HE didn't give up and kept working to understand the concepts.  He impressed his therapy leaders as most kids don't really try as much as he did (so they said).  He was one of their few graduates.  But he's self-driven that way.  (ALL therapy was free through our school district even when he was of preschool age.)

 

By high school we were telling him to put down the books and go play at times - even over the summer when we weren't doing school.

 

In college he does so much I wonder if he sleeps - and he still has a 3.96 GPA with an average of 20 credit hours per semester - and two jobs (RA/TA) - and research - and dances - and is in a Christian club (President) - and does fun things.

 

My other two are far more normal.  Far, far more normal.

 

Driven kids don't know the word "can't."  They make things happen.

 

I feel for those just as driven who don't get acceptances to great places and I want to remind them that there are more good schools than just the Top 20.  My guy has been thrilled with #34 (I think that's where URoc is - I could be off).

[8filltheheart]

Even the other activities mentioned involve more money than a lot of people could devote to it.

 

My son wants to learn more about robotics. I'd love to go out and buy him a bunch of robotics stuff. All that stuff is expensive though so best I can do is have him come up with very specific affordable project ideas. Growing up if I had been interested, best I would have gotten is a suggestion to walk 3 miles to the library (and probably not find much in the way of a book on robotics).

 

I was very thin as a child. Guess it was all that walking! LOL

I think you should read Michael Tubbs's story. http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/Parents-mistakes-made-me-succeed-3236270.php

 

He went on to be accepted at Stanford. And now: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/08/local/la-me-tubbs-20121108

 

Kids do get accepted who focus their essays on their real life circumstances and how they worked jobs to support their family and did what they could to change their community for the better. Admissions is not limited to those with stable 2 parent family backgrounds with their families providing them everything. But, they are limited to kids with that internal mojo and high academic excellence.

[Caroline]

I hope you can read this with the gentle intent in which I am really responding, but some kids simply search under every rock, literally calling/emailing/researching every possible opportunity, and create opportunities when they don't already exist. It is the unwillingness to stop at something they are aware of which drives them to seek things that they aren't that distinguishes their accomplishments beyond others.

 

On an different note, for an inspirational story about a young man from a very difficult background who was accepted to Stanford, you might want to read Michael Tubbs's story.

 

Absolutely!

 

[creekland]

 

What do you mean by the bolded?  Do you mean people without the means to pay for any college completely on their own, people who will definitely need financial aid to attend, should not try for ED?

  

 

ED is a binding agreement that if a college accepts you, you will attend there.  The only escape is if the finances don't work out, but in general, you are supposed to know that the finances will work out.

 

It's often suggested for those who need finances to work out to attend that they apply to several places as one never knows WHERE the finances will work out the best.

 

Middle son had a difference of 33K in the amount colleges expected us to pay (per year).  If he had only applied to that higher cost school, he wouldn't have been going anywhere that year.

[SparklyUnicorn]

For anyone who hasn't read it yet, the MIT blog entry Applying Sideways is instructive on hooks.

 

Similarly, I liked Newport's How to be a High School Superstar, albeit with a grain of salt regarding some of the examples.  One positive example that stood out to me was the girl who developed an interest by spending a summer working in the research lab of her neighbor professor.  Without looking it up, I'd guess that such activity may have involved foregoing a paying summer job and, of course, happening to know the right people, but there's also an element of creating one's opportunities.

 

"napping" I could have excelled at that!

 

Thanks for the link.

[creekland]

I have so many thoughts going through my head I don't know where to begin.

 

Not everyone has a chance to participate in certain activities.  Our area doesn't have Science Olympiad and I have never heard of Envirothon (I will look that up).  If they were available here, I am pretty sure the school would not provide transportation.  As it is the Math Club advisor uses his own money to rent a van to get the Math Club students to competitions.  Heck, the school just instituted a policy where each student must pay $30 a year per activity (capped at $270 per family) in order to have access to school busses.  This access is not guaranteed.  The tennis team regularly asks for parent volunteers to drive to away meets.

 

ETA:  Just looked up Envirothon.  Oh my ~ $1300 for a team and $800 for a guest.  Our state does have a rep and LUCs which sponsor teams.  However, there is only one team in our area and that team is funded through their chapter of FFA.

 

Drats, that would have been a good program to know about 4 or 5 years ago.

 

I'd missed these earlier... I'm in school, so my attention is quite divided - except now when I have a Study Hall I'm monitoring... ;)

 

Not all public/private schools do these things.  I just looked at our Science Olympiad results from Central PA and only 34 schools competed - public and private included.  We have far, far more school districts than that in the region.  Our school finished 1st in Green Generation and Cell Biology, but 17th (middle of the pack) overall.  Nonetheless, it is a great experience - and all started because a few years back, a student asked about it and inspired the start up within our school.  Fundraisers (and some school funding) keep it going.

 

Envirothon?  I only knew about it when my son was asked to join the team 3 years ago.  I also know homeschooled teams can participate, because the next county over, they are one of the teams to beat.  I'm not sure how many schools participate in this one to be honest.  The competition is later in the spring.

 

I am not trying to be contrary and I hope this question is perceived as sincere...

How can a student with an interest know how to get something started when there is no knowledge of the program to begin with?  For example, my DS has participated in every environmental awareness opportunity he could find through the BSA.  He has spoken with DNR representatives, given presentations about and conducted Leave No Trace campaigns (he is a Nationally certified LNT trainer), etc and we have never heard of Envirothon.  This is something he would have jumped on and tried to implement but it never came across his (our) radar.  So yes, DS saw the need to increase environmental awareness and did what he could to fill that need but starting a competitive team was something that never crossed his mind because he was not aware that an environmental competition was a thing.

 

 

This is where life gets tricky and those of us with connections can learn so much more.  The Hive is great for connections.  The local newspaper is too (around here) as they post pics, etc, with results of competitions, etc, once per week or so.

 

I'm not sure how driven kids find out so much about things.  I suspect they hang out on internet sites and learn from them now, but the driven part goes back prior to the internet days.  Some are just creative.  They know what they want and look for it or make it or whatever is needed.

 

There are ALWAYS gaps in our knowledge as we are human.  Driven kids just try to fill in as many gaps as they can in any way that they can.

 

It is a bummer to learn about things after the fact - very frustrating.  I know when I learn tidbits of info on here or college confidential or even from someone in person, I try to share that knowledge with someone who might be interested as it may help them fill a gap.  It's part of why I stay on the Hive and College Confidential...  I appreciate what I've gleaned and don't mind offering my two cents to others following along.

 

They can always take or leave that two cents as it applies (or doesn't) to them.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

I'm not sure how driven kids find out so much about things.  I suspect they hang out on internet sites and learn from them now, but the driven part goes back prior to the internet days.  Some are just creative.  They know what they want and look for it or make it or whatever is needed.

 

 

My older kid is highly driven, but then he'll come up with something like, "Mom, can you drop me off at blah blah blah company because I want to meet up with some people to do a 48 hour computer programming competition."  He found these people on-line.

 

Unfortunately, we could not make this happen this time around, but this is still not ideal because he is 13 and these are adults.  And I don't know any of them.  I was not going to drop him off for 48 hours with strange adults an hour away from home in the dead of winter.  If we could have done it, I would have probably gone with him and then he wouldn't be able to stay there for 48 hours (because I can't hack that).  If he were a tad older, I'd probably be more flexible, but honestly does that not sound crazy on my part if I'd just drop him off there?

 

I am confident he will find stuff because he really is motivated.  I just get very bummed when I can't make it happen for him. 

[creekland]

My older kid is highly driven, but then he'll come up with something like, "Mom, can you drop me off at blah blah blah company because I want to meet up with some people to do a 48 hour computer programming competition."  He found these people on-line.

 

Unfortunately, we could not make this happen this time around, but this is still not ideal because he is 13 and these are adults.  And I don't know any of them.  I was not going to drop him off for 48 hours with strange adults an hour away from home in the dead of winter.  If we could have done it, I would have probably gone with him and then he wouldn't be able to stay there for 48 hours (because I can't hack that).  If he were a tad older, I'd probably be more flexible, but honestly does that not sound crazy on my part if I'd just drop him off there?

 

I am confident he will find stuff because he really is motivated.  I just get very bummed when I can't make it happen for him. 

 

At 13 I would think it's fine to miss.  For later years (when he is older) you'll know the competition is out there... ;)

 

Many driven kids do succeed without their parent's help or assistance.  Others drag their parents along for the ride.

[Grantmom]

Is it even possible to know if the finances will work out when you apply ED?  Or can you only apply anywhere ED if you are super wealthy?

 

Is there any benefit to applying ED?  Like, are your chances better, or could they be worse?  If you apply ED and get rejected, can you still apply regular decision?

[Jen in NY]

It is possible to have a decent idea what your finances will look like to some extent if you use the calculators on the college websites. Ours was very accurate.

 

You do not have to be super wealthy.... but you do have to be super sure it's the place your kid wants to go and you have to be super informed about the way this whole thing works.

 

Some people say the chances are better.... after all, what better way can a college improve its yield than admitting kids that are practically guaranteed to attend? Also, they like kids that want to go to their school and know the programs.

[Hoggirl]

Is it even possible to know if the finances will work out when you apply ED? Or can you only apply anywhere ED if you are super wealthy?

 

Is there any benefit to applying ED? Like, are your chances better, or could they be worse? If you apply ED and get rejected, can you still apply regular decision?

Anyone can apply anywhere ED as long as you are following all the rules of other schools that you might be interested in applying to as well as those of the ED school. As an example, one could not apply REA to Stanford and also ED to UPenn. But whether that is wise to pursue ED is another issue. I think it works for people who know they can be full-pay or for those who know (perhaps by running NPC??) they will be receiving plenty of FA. I have known folks on both ends of the sprectrum. It probably is not a good idea for those folks in the middle unless they know they can pay or they know they would be willing to co-sign loans. It is a binding agreement.

 

I am not sure how you define "super wealthy." I will say if you know you are able to pay full-freight and are willing to do so AND that your dc is CERTAIN that is the school they want, then yes, apply ED. As an example, UPenn filled 54% of next year's entering class in ED and the admission rate for those applying ED was approximately 25%. You can see why RD is more challenging. If you apply ED and are rejected, you cannot reapply RD to that same school.

 

Some schools offer EDI and EDII. So, some kids do both of those. There is definitely an admissions boost to applying ED. Once you are accepted ED you must withdraw your other applications.

[creekland]

Odds are almost always better with ED.  I have no idea how certain the finances are via their NPC and it could easily vary.  If you know of THE school your student wants ED (there can only be one), then go to College Confidential on that school's site and ask to see what has happened in the past.

 

If you are rejected ED, you can't reapply RD.  Many schools will defer non-accepted students in ED to RD automatically though.  That's not a rejection.

 

EA (early action) is another option many schools use and usually one can apply to as many as they want with this option (Yale is an exception).  These results rarely come as early as ED, but they are earlier than RD and again, often have better odds.  EA is not binding.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ok ED...RD..what is that?

 

 

[FaithManor]

It doesnt bother me for a private school, but my own state school? Couldnt the middle class who do pay quite a lot in taxes have the benefit of some of the money they have paid in? Same argument for public school...I pay quite a bit in taxes compared to someone in dense housing, yet it is resented if my kid needs an AP class...I have to buy books for that class myself, if the district will agree to offer it.

I hear ya! I resent the tar out of my tax money being funneled to my school district where my kids cannot get AP biology, AP chemistry, AP English or any history, AP calc and physics are only offered every other year so if you are out of sync with the rotation, you are out of luck, where only two years of foreign language are offered, the parents have to fund the salary and benefits package of the band and choir director in it's entirety, but the sports budget gets an annual increase, and they closed the school library! But, they constantly increase remedial classes. They offer NOTHING for my kids. Not.one.thing. I have actually said to both the principal and the superintendent that it would be total waste of my kids' time to ever darn the doors of the place, and that's the truth. I am not exaggerating.

 

So yes, I'd like to get some benefit from the tax money I spend in this ridiculous excuse of an education system and it should at least begin with my kids being able to attend any of the "state schools" at a reasonable net price and without ungodly debt.

[Pawz4me]

Ok ED...RD..what is that?

 

ED - early decision

 

RD - regular decision

 

EA - early action

[Hoggirl]

ED - early decision

 

RD - regular decision

 

EA - early action

And there is:

 

SCEA - single choice early action

 

REA - restricted early action

 

The above two are pretty much the same but with different labels. SCEA is the terminology used by Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. REA is the term used by Stanford.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

. They tend to simply have the opportunities because their parents have the time and money to get them into it.

I think there are lots of opportunities in many communities that don't require parents to finagle. I had one kid doing an interesting internship at a historic site that required me to drive him. But he also volunteered with the Library Friends two blocks from out house. His brother coached younger swimmers after his own practices.

 

They both did Eagle Projects in the local area. I did very little with that other than provide moral support and encouragement.

 

Our churches have always had multiple work projects going. Most of these are happy to use teens.

[Gwen in VA]

I appreciate all of the "driven kids create their own opportunities" comments.

 

I could add lots of other low-cost opportunities kids I know have created. I think my favorite "create your own opportunity" story is a kid who got an expenses-paid trip to India because he won a national kite-building contest here in America. He went, an unaccompanied minor, to India. The Indian government paid back his expenses IN CASH on day #1, so he then spent ten days in India with a hefty sum of cold hard cash on his person, Yikes! He went on to establish a kite-building company the day he turned 18!

 

I do think, though, that opportunities vary WIDELY by region. Our current region seems to abound in them, but we have only lived in this area for a decade. In the area where we come from (a significantly wealthier area), everything seemed to cost and cost and cost. Finding low-cost opportunities was certainly not impossible but was certainly more challenging.

 

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I'm coming around to the opinion that you can't artificially create a hook for the ivies and schools with similar admissions rates.  They need to admit two types of student--those who will ensure the financial success of their institution and those who make their student body seem interesting and high achieving.  Those who can ensure financial success are either those who need no aid (merit or need based) and legacies.  I might even include those they perceive as becoming major donors as alumni.  Those who are interesting are harder to define and numerous in their application pool.  Grades and test scores are obvious qualifications and then that other something...  I don't think you can craft that--I think those kids just are that.  If there is crafting it has come from their passions not a parental plan or at least the kids must choose acceptance and compliance with a parental plan.  There will always be a group of those kids that will bring good publicity to the school--ie Westinghouse winners or "Harvard admits homeless girl" stories.  The average, well-qualified kid is numerous in their applicant pool. 

 

Kids who want to attend such a school are the sort who will create opportunities for themselves to do wonderful and interesting things.  They will do these things out of their passion for them not out of a desire to pad an application.

 

I don't believe that one should ever consider the money that an ivy is willing to offer (even if it is full tuition) as a real scholarship opportunity.  If you are admitted you could benefit greatly but I'm not sure anyone can guarantee admission in such a way that I'd put all my eggs in that basket or get my kids' hopes up.  The odds of admission are just too small.  Am I saying don't apply--no of course not, shoot for it, prepare for it, apply, but don't put all your hopes and dreams into that one opportunity (getting a scholarship from an ivy) because the odds aren't in your favor even if you are well qualified.

[Hoggirl]

Snipped: I might even include those they perceive as becoming major donors as alumni.

 

I believe this is true. When we attended the Duke TIP recognition ceremony at Duke in the 7th grade for ds there was an admissions person who talked to parents and students, and he said they absolutely wanted students who would become good alumni.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I appreciate all of the "driven kids create their own opportunities" comments.

 

I could add lots of other low-cost opportunities kids I know have created. I think my favorite "create your own opportunity" story is a kid who got an expenses-paid trip to India because he won a national kite-building contest here in America. He went, an unaccompanied minor, to India. The Indian government paid back his expenses IN CASH on day #1, so he then spent ten days in India with a hefty sum of cold hard cash on his person, Yikes! He went on to establish a kite-building company the day he turned 18!

 

I do think, though, that opportunities vary WIDELY by region. Our current region seems to abound in them, but we have only lived in this area for a decade. In the area where we come from (a significantly wealthier area), everything seemed to cost and cost and cost. Finding low-cost opportunities was certainly not impossible but was certainly more challenging.

 

I think that one of the things about youth involvement is that it's more about them doing things they care about than about burnishing their resume.  The library volunteering happened because we (as a family) love books.  We partly picked out our rental because it was two blocks from the library branch. We started volunteering with the Friends group because we were there at every single sale anyway and asked how we could help out.  

 

There was a more formal volunteer hour program within the library itself.  Funny, that one had a waiting list for the month before the local 8th graders had to turn in their volunteer hours.  Then there were few if any teens on site.  What my kids did just arose because they were helpful and liked to hang out with the booksale people.

 

Similarly, the kid who was a swim coach intern was simply the kid who liked to hang around after his own practice and help out.  Every day he would hop in the lane and be there as the little kids learned to master their strokes.  He wasn't even an official teen coach.  Those kids tended to hang out on the pool deck making up reasons not to get in the water.  In the end one of the asst coaches tried to add him to the teen coaching roster, but he was too young.  The club president made him a coach intern so that his efforts could be recognized.  (And all of this really didn't matter so much to my son.  He was just happy to be in the water and happy to be helping other people.)

 

We were in Northern VA, so I do know what the high pressure FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) scene looks like.

 

I have no idea where my kids will end up.  I'm pretty sure it won't be an Ivy for the oldest, because he has no interest in them.  He is looking at schools that are a bit lower in the glitzy wow factor, but will give him the chance at a solid engineering or computer degree.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

I feel for those just as driven who don't get acceptances to great places and I want to remind them that there are more good schools than just the Top 20.  My guy has been thrilled with #34 (I think that's where URoc is - I could be off).

 

I would say there are even more Great schools than just the top 20.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

But a lot of it started with the parent signing them up when they were little.  For example, signing your 3 year old up for dance and the kid stuck with it a long time.  What 3 year old doesn't say they want to dance?  Many of them do.  I credit the kid mostly with sticking with it, but the parent often encourages them, keeps paying for it, and keeps carting them there.  Then when the kid says they hate dance after some years, the parent bribes them to stick with it or heavily encourages or makes them.  Not saying this is always the case.  And you can't decide at 14 you suddenly want to take ballet lessons.  Not impossible, but not likely.  There may be zero opportunities for a late start even for non competitive fun dance classes.

 

I'm not saying the kid deserves zero credit.  They are ultimately the one who has to practice and work at it.  But they aren't usually the one paying for it nor driving themselves there nor paying for the gas to get there.  I wasn't in activities because my parents would not pay for it and would not drive there.  I did volunteer to read at a nursing home.  That was all me because I contacted them and walked there (over 2 miles one way).  But how long could I realistically keep that up?  I did not do it with the thought that it'll go on a college application.  I did it because I enjoyed it, but again I could not easily squeeze that in with the long hours I had to work a paid job and go to school.  It might not even look all that impressive that I read to senior citizens in a nursing home for a couple of hours a week, but of course nobody knew that it also meant I walked 4 miles in the dark there and back in an unsafe area.  I really think people often don't have any clue what some people go through to just get through.  There is no way to put that down on paper either.  It just looks like I didn't do much. 

 

So I maintain that activities are often about what the parent can afford or what they agree to. 

 

I do interviews for my alma mater.  This is exactly the type of story that I'm interested in hearing from the kid.  Because it does show me something about the person at hand.  The kid who works at the golf course as a caddy may also be working very hard.  He may in fact be working to afford clubs or lessons that he couldn't pay for otherwise.  Or he might have the job because his parents are on the board of the club.

 

I do want to hear about jobs.  Even mundane jobs like lifeguarding, bagging groceries, driving the golf ball retrieval tractor at the driving range, etc.  Working a fry line may seem ordinary.  It also can be an indication of someone being willing to work hard.

 

I told one student who was at a college info table I staffed that there wasn't much point in dwelling on things like gender, race or ethnic background.  Those are things the student can't control.  They can control the effort they put into school and what they do with the other hours in their day.  (For many students, I think the answer is not a lot.  I might be jaded by the fact that half the students in my son's CC pre-calc class didn't show up for the major exam he had today.  He skipped a morning at the beach yesterday to do homework and study for the test.)

[8filltheheart]

I would say there are even more Great schools than just the top 20.  

:iagree:  There are over 3,000 4-yr degree granting public/private colleges/universities.  The top 20 schools are .67% of all universities.  It is just absurd to limit "great" schools to such a small fraction, especially when considering how low the enrollment is at many of those schools.  It takes several of them combined to equal enrollment at your typical state flagship.  Even if you limit to the top 5% of schools, that would be the top 150 schools.  

[EndOfOrdinary]

But a lot of it started with the parent signing them up when they were little. For example, signing your 3 year old up for dance and the kid stuck with it a long time. What 3 year old doesn't say they want to dance? Many of them do. I credit the kid mostly with sticking with it, but the parent often encourages them, keeps paying for it, and keeps carting them there. Then when the kid says they hate dance after some years, the parent bribes them to stick with it or heavily encourages or makes them. Not saying this is always the case. And you can't decide at 14 you suddenly want to take ballet lessons. Not impossible, but not likely. There may be zero opportunities for a late start even for non competitive fun dance classes.

 

I'm not saying the kid deserves zero credit. They are ultimately the one who has to practice and work at it. But they aren't usually the one paying for it nor driving themselves there nor paying for the gas to get there. I wasn't in activities because my parents would not pay for it and would not drive there. I did volunteer to read at a nursing home. That was all me because I contacted them and walked there (over 2 miles one way). But how long could I realistically keep that up? I did not do it with the thought that it'll go on a college application. I did it because I enjoyed it, but again I could not easily squeeze that in with the long hours I had to work a paid job and go to school. It might not even look all that impressive that I read to senior citizens in a nursing home for a couple of hours a week, but of course nobody knew that it also meant I walked 4 miles in the dark there and back in an unsafe area. I really think people often don't have any clue what some people go through to just get through. There is no way to put that down on paper either. It just looks like I didn't do much.

 

So I maintain that activities are often about what the parent can afford or what they agree to.

Edited due to TMI.

 

Actually, my son's work is and always has been led by him. His mental and emotional well being are tied up in it and have been since about six. When we did not take him seriously, he Googled MLK because it was the only organizer he knew. That lead him to Ghandi and that led him to rather extreme versions of non-violent civil disobedience trying to get us to listen to him (Sit in's, boycotts, Declarations of Independence, and finally a hunger strike). This is not a hobby to him. He legitimately feels like he is fighting to save the world and his future. He legitimately knows that he might fail.

 

As for the driving around, at 8 Ds began work on creating his own non-profit so that he can write grants to fund this portion of our life. Status was achieved earlier this year (2 years later), grant funding began coming in shortly there after. We flat out do not have that kind of money living on one teacher's salary so he found a way to get it himself. He sought out half a dozen professional mentors to work with him probono because we could not afford to pay for the work to be done. He Googled, emailed, ordered himself business cards, networked, showed up and sat in offices for three hours to be seen, began testifying at federal hearings where he was legally required to be heard, asked to speak at church, etc. He just plain was not going to be quiet. Now he does regional work for an entire network of nonprofits and is busy building an interstate coalition of kids working on climate change. Many of the nonprofits fund large portions of it as well, such as all the lobbying and legislative work, lots of carpooling and travel, many of the events he is starting to organize, much of his videography that he does not do himself. To some extent it is me agreeing, but with all the adults he has now supporting him I do not need to be in the picture much. He has people who can drive him and consent forms I can sign. He has money to spend as long as he gives the paperwork to his accountant. With the Internet, a library card, and knowledge of citizens rights in our Nation, very little is impossible.

 

This is what my son does. This is who he is. It is truly something that I would not wish for him as it can be soul crushing. But really, passion is passion. Darn near every other parent I know who has a kid that is this intense will tell you they would turn it off in a second if they could. I promise, it is not me. I cannot even talk about my kid in 99 percent of my life.

[Laura Corin]

I'm coming around to the opinion that you can't artificially create a hook for the ivies and schools with similar admissions rates.  They need to admit two types of student--those who will ensure the financial success of their institution and those who make their student body seem interesting and high achieving.  Those who can ensure financial success are either those who need no aid (merit or need based) and legacies.  I might even include those they perceive as becoming major donors as alumni.  Those who are interesting are harder to define and numerous in their application pool.  Grades and test scores are obvious qualifications and then that other something...  I don't think you can craft that--I think those kids just are that.  

 

The girl I know from the UK who got into Harvard was on the under-eighteen team for Scotland in a sport that it is unusual for women to play, but for which Harvard has a team.  She's very bright, very well rounded and very outgoing.  But I think the Scotland team 'cap' would have been the clincher.  

 

Could she have manufactured that?  Well, there aren't many women who play that sport in Scotland either, so it would have been easier to get into the team than for other sports.  But she had to have talent as well as drive.

[Dmmetler]

I also think there's kind of a mistaken logic in looking at kids who are really focused on one thing and thinking that this is a hook for college admissions. It might be, eventually, but that's not the goal. DD just wants to know snakes, learn about snakes and help people love and learn to love and protect snakes (and frogs). Everything else is secondary. She doesn't want to become a herpetologist. She's going to do her best to be one now.

 

The same is true with every highly passionate kid I've known. It starts with that love and that drive. College (or the national team in a sport, or the dance company position) are just a step on the road that involves doing what you love, not tomorrow, not in 10 years, but now.

 

DD doesn't care if being known as "snake girl" makes a difference in college except that she's pretty insistent that she's not going if she can't take her snakes with her (which leaves out any school in New Jersey, Georgia and Hawaii due to laws, and Alaska due to climate).  Although she does think it's cool when Penn State sends her recruiting information (Boy, their biology department picks 'em young....)

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I also think there's kind of a mistaken logic in looking at kids who are really focused on one thing and thinking that this is a hook for college admissions. It might be, eventually, but that's not the goal. 

 

I personally think that is the point.  It isn't something people can replicate.  It is simply authentic them.

[SarahW]

Well, I come from a family that would have made me more than qualified for a full ride at Stanford or any of other schools mentioned.

 

But, hmm, I don't think my parents even realized that such a thing existed. They only looked at sticker price, and rejected out of hand. People "like us" went to CC for an AA in something "practical" and got a J.O.B. My lack of interest in that path did not cause them to investigate other possibilities.

 

Another issue isn't just whether the student has the drive to do something. With the internet most information is available (a resource I could have really benefited from in my early teens). It is also a matter of being able to do something, or whether the parent naysays or discourages what the student desires to do. Why are you spending (your own) money on X lessons? How do you expect to get there, do you expect me to drive you there? Why are you complaining about me being an hour late to pick you up? You're not even that good, so what's the point?

 

Also, the library isn't necessarily a good resource. My older brother benefited hugely from our local library growing up, but for me the library was actually mostly a negative influence. Such is the luck of the library acquisitions draw.

 

When it comes to opportunities, yes, the rich get richer. I was once poking around the library events calender for the county and saw a fully free SAT practice test event scheduled. Oh, that's neat, nice thing for kids who can't afford private test prep or to take the SAT multiple times. Then I saw that it was scheduled for the library in one of the wealthiest suburbs of Atlanta. No other library, just that one. Right.

 

Also, while picking out "hot" activities for ones kid is silly, certain activities are common to certain socio-economic classes, and if your class matches that of the school, most of the activities your kid chooses is going to be "hotter." When I was 14 I put together a team for the Awana Olympics, which wasn't easy since we need to merge two different church groups to have enough players. We did pretty well, all things considering. But the next year I started working at McD's, so that I could buy a car and gas to get to DE and save up for college, and didn't have the time to continue that, not that anyone asked me to do it anyways. But my family was quite isolated socially, there was just church. And no one at church seemed to care if I organized something. And Awana Olympics wasn't my passion anyways. But if I had continued it and applied to an Ivy, was that something an Adcom would even understand?

 

I looked for activities that fit my passion, I did. I sat in the library and pored over College scholarship and awards and organizations books, but I saw plenty of competitions and scholarships for math and the like, but never anything of interest to me. And people who knew my interest didn't bother themselves about it, people in midwestern suburbia didn't really think much about Assyrians.

 

I sometimes wonder what could've been. If I had found in those books in the library a mention of Mythology or Latin clubs. If the library collection wasn't full of so much nonsense. If my parents didn't turn their noses up at being interested in "worthless" things. If I had known to take the PSAT. If I had known to do any test prep. If I had looked beyond denominational schools and not dramatically under-reached. But maybe I was just dumb. Or not driven. Or didn't have enough grit. Or something. Yeah, I should have been uber-amazing, then I wouldn't have had those problems. But I thought I was doing everything right, I didn't understand what I was missing that schools were looking for. How do you know something, if you don't know that you don't know it?

 

So for my own kid who has interests far outside my own, yes, I keep my eyes open for him, and I make him a login for Scratch. This isn't because I want a "My kid goes to Harvard" bumper sticker, but because it's something I knew he'd enjoy (he does). I think having an interested parent (or someone else) gets taken for granted in these discussions. Just the little things count, a lot, even if that's just not being discouraging.

[SeaConquest]

I also think there's kind of a mistaken logic in looking at kids who are really focused on one thing and thinking that this is a hook for college admissions. It might be, eventually, but that's not the goal. DD just wants to know snakes, learn about snakes and help people love and learn to love and protect snakes (and frogs). Everything else is secondary. She doesn't want to become a herpetologist. She's going to do her best to be one now.

 

The same is true with every highly passionate kid I've known. It starts with that love and that drive. College (or the national team in a sport, or the dance company position) are just a step on the road that involves doing what you love, not tomorrow, not in 10 years, but now.

 

DD doesn't care if being known as "snake girl" makes a difference in college except that she's pretty insistent that she's not going if she can't take her snakes with her (which leaves out any school in New Jersey, Georgia and Hawaii due to laws, and Alaska due to climate).  Although she does think it's cool when Penn State sends her recruiting information (Boy, their biology department picks 'em young....)

 

I hope I didn't give the impression that I believe parents or students should manufacture a hook. IMHO, these attempts are often pretty transparent. In reflecting on my classmates, their hooks are unmistakable. But, as you illustrate, these passions are also simply intrinsic to who they are as people. There is a qualitative difference.  

[creekland]

 

I sometimes wonder what could've been. If I had found in those books in the library a mention of Mythology or Latin clubs. If the library collection wasn't full of so much nonsense. If my parents didn't turn their noses up at being interested in "worthless" things. If I had known to take the PSAT. If I had known to do any test prep. If I had looked beyond denominational schools and not dramatically under-reached. But maybe I was just dumb. Or not driven. Or didn't have enough grit. Or something. Yeah, I should have been uber-amazing, then I wouldn't have had those problems. But I thought I was doing everything right, I didn't understand what I was missing that schools were looking for. How do you know something, if you don't know that you don't know it?

 

So for my own kid who has interests far outside my own, yes, I keep my eyes open for him, and I make him a login for Scratch. This isn't because I want a "My kid goes to Harvard" bumper sticker, but because it's something I knew he'd enjoy (he does). I think having an interested parent (or someone else) gets taken for granted in these discussions. Just the little things count, a lot, even if that's just not being discouraging.

 

Personally, I think the worst thing is when parents are against their kids.  Parents being out of the picture or not caring can be worked around more easily than the parent who won't fill out FAFSA or who is adamant that their kid should be joining the workforce or must go to cc or even must go to Alma mater.  It is very difficult for some parents to realize their kids can have their own paths that fit them better.

 

It IS tough for kids to know what they don't know.  It's easier now with the internet and so much connection, but just a few years back, it was much more difficult.

 

I know around where I live/work - IRL - I offer suggestions to kids - just as many of us do for parents on here.  But even then, when parents set their foot down, there's not much that can be done (due to the finances needed).

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think there are lots of opportunities in many communities that don't require parents to finagle. I had one kid doing an interesting internship at a historic site that required me to drive him. But he also volunteered with the Library Friends two blocks from out house. His brother coached younger swimmers after his own practices.

 

They both did Eagle Projects in the local area. I did very little with that other than provide moral support and encouragement.

 

Our churches have always had multiple work projects going. Most of these are happy to use teens.

 

 

We aren't involved with any churches.  So nothing built in there at all.  Can't do scouts either.  Schools don't allow homeschoolers.  Everything is tied up in the schools.

 

There aren't a ton of opportunities. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is what I was mostly getting at.

 

My parents weren't even really all that supportive about college in general.  I don't think they thought I could possibly go.  My dad could not go so he figured I could not either.  He had just resigned himself to that.  At least he was willing to fill out the FA paperwork, unlike his own father.

 

I'm not concerned about my kids exactly.  I think they will find plenty to do and they have plenty of interests.  I was mostly speaking in general terms. 

 

 

Well, I come from a family that would have made me more than qualified for a full ride at Stanford or any of other schools mentioned.

 

But, hmm, I don't think my parents even realized that such a thing existed. They only looked at sticker price, and rejected out of hand. People "like us" went to CC for an AA in something "practical" and got a J.O.B. My lack of interest in that path did not cause them to investigate other possibilities.

 

Another issue isn't just whether the student has the drive to do something. With the internet most information is available (a resource I could have really benefited from in my early teens). It is also a matter of being able to do something, or whether the parent naysays or discourages what the student desires to do. Why are you spending (your own) money on X lessons? How do you expect to get there, do you expect me to drive you there? Why are you complaining about me being an hour late to pick you up? You're not even that good, so what's the point?

 

Also, the library isn't necessarily a good resource. My older brother benefited hugely from our local library growing up, but for me the library was actually mostly a negative influence. Such is the luck of the library acquisitions draw.

 

When it comes to opportunities, yes, the rich get richer. I was once poking around the library events calender for the county and saw a fully free SAT practice test event scheduled. Oh, that's neat, nice thing for kids who can't afford private test prep or to take the SAT multiple times. Then I saw that it was scheduled for the library in one of the wealthiest suburbs of Atlanta. No other library, just that one. Right.

 

Also, while picking out "hot" activities for ones kid is silly, certain activities are common to certain socio-economic classes, and if your class matches that of the school, most of the activities your kid chooses is going to be "hotter." When I was 14 I put together a team for the Awana Olympics, which wasn't easy since we need to merge two different church groups to have enough players. We did pretty well, all things considering. But the next year I started working at McD's, so that I could buy a car and gas to get to DE and save up for college, and didn't have the time to continue that, not that anyone asked me to do it anyways. But my family was quite isolated socially, there was just church. And no one at church seemed to care if I organized something. And Awana Olympics wasn't my passion anyways. But if I had continued it and applied to an Ivy, was that something an Adcom would even understand?

 

I looked for activities that fit my passion, I did. I sat in the library and pored over College scholarship and awards and organizations books, but I saw plenty of competitions and scholarships for math and the like, but never anything of interest to me. And people who knew my interest didn't bother themselves about it, people in midwestern suburbia didn't really think much about Assyrians.

 

I sometimes wonder what could've been. If I had found in those books in the library a mention of Mythology or Latin clubs. If the library collection wasn't full of so much nonsense. If my parents didn't turn their noses up at being interested in "worthless" things. If I had known to take the PSAT. If I had known to do any test prep. If I had looked beyond denominational schools and not dramatically under-reached. But maybe I was just dumb. Or not driven. Or didn't have enough grit. Or something. Yeah, I should have been uber-amazing, then I wouldn't have had those problems. But I thought I was doing everything right, I didn't understand what I was missing that schools were looking for. How do you know something, if you don't know that you don't know it?

 

So for my own kid who has interests far outside my own, yes, I keep my eyes open for him, and I make him a login for Scratch. This isn't because I want a "My kid goes to Harvard" bumper sticker, but because it's something I knew he'd enjoy (he does). I think having an interested parent (or someone else) gets taken for granted in these discussions. Just the little things count, a lot, even if that's just not being discouraging.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Personally, I think the worst thing is when parents are against their kids.  Parents being out of the picture or not caring can be worked around more easily than the parent who won't fill out FAFSA or who is adamant that their kid should be joining the workforce or must go to cc or even must go to Alma mater.  It is very difficult for some parents to realize their kids can have their own paths that fit them better.

 

It IS tough for kids to know what they don't know.  It's easier now with the internet and so much connection, but just a few years back, it was much more difficult.

 

I know around where I live/work - IRL - I offer suggestions to kids - just as many of us do for parents on here.  But even then, when parents set their foot down, there's not much that can be done (due to the finances needed).

 

I don't even know if they are always against them for the reasons you'd imagine.  I think they themselves just don't think it's possible.  I admit that I don't think certain things are possible.  My older kid comes up with a ton of ideas for things, but I view most of them as completely outrageous.  So I think I do somewhat work against him because I am practical to a fault.  I try to not do that, but I admit I struggle with it. 

 

For example, if he had come to me as an 8 year old and said he wanted to start a non profit, I would have seen that as impossible.  I mean a person can't even have a lemonade stand here.  There are so many rules and regulations it's close to impossible to do a lot of things.  LITERALLY.  He wanted to start a business fixing computers.  How would he even do that?  What if he broke someone's computer?  What would protect him from that and me from that?  KWIM?  There are just so many REAL obstacles.  He is still very young though so I think he will be able to do some of the things he wants when he gets a bit older. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I hope I didn't give the impression that I believe parents or students should manufacture a hook. IMHO, these attempts are often pretty transparent. In reflecting on my classmates, their hooks are unmistakable. But, as you illustrate, these passions are also simply intrinsic to who they are as people. There is a qualitative difference.  

 

I feel the same.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I admit to being cynical and pessimistic, but when I read about some people who came from very dire circumstances and graduated from some amazing college and went on to do amazing things all the while walking uphills both ways in a blizzard to do it, I think there are TONS of people who try to do that and they don't always get attention for it, and they don't always make it.  It's like a nice story that people love to hear/read about.  That anyone can succeed.  I just don't know what the true reality of that is though. 

 

 

[creekland]

I don't even know if they are always against them for the reasons you'd imagine.  I think they themselves just don't think it's possible.  I admit that I don't think certain things are possible.  My older kid comes up with a ton of ideas for things, but I view most of them as completely outrageous.  So I think I do somewhat work against him because I am practical to a fault.  I try to not do that, but I admit I struggle with it. 

 

For example, if he had come to me as an 8 year old and said he wanted to start a non profit, I would have seen that as impossible.  I mean a person can't even have a lemonade stand here.  There are so many rules and regulations it's close to impossible to do a lot of things.  LITERALLY.  He wanted to start a business fixing computers.  How would he even do that?  What if he broke someone's computer?  What would protect him from that and me from that?  KWIM?  There are just so many REAL obstacles.  He is still very young though so I think he will be able to do some of the things he wants when he gets a bit older. 

 

The parents I'm specifically thinking about make their views known, so we're not coming up with conjecture.  One outright said there was no reason for college other than to pay for kids to learn how to drink... and his kids knew how without having to pay for it.  Trades were good enough for him and would be good enough for his kids.  Period.

 

Middle son told me at 8 years of age that he wanted to be a doctor.  I didn't think a thing about it really.  But he hasn't wavered - and has always been eager to help me with any sort of basic vet stuff I do with our ponies or other critters.  He's assisted our vet with more major things too.

 

Not all kids know young.  I sure didn't - nor did my other two!  But some just do.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The parents I'm specifically thinking about make their views known, so we're not coming up with conjecture.  One outright said there was no reason for college other than to pay for kids to learn how to drink... and his kids knew how without having to pay for it.  Trades were good enough for him and would be good enough for his kids.  Period.

 

Middle son told me at 8 years of age that he wanted to be a doctor.  I didn't think a thing about it really.  But he hasn't wavered - and has always been eager to help me with any sort of basic vet stuff I do with our ponies or other critters.  He's assisted our vet with more major things too.

 

Not all kids know young.  I sure didn't - nor did my other two!  But some just do.

 

I am wildly excited that my son has someone who knows about stuff he is interested in and has a role model.  I did not have that growing up.  So I think he's going to go a lot further than I did and I really can't ask for more. 

 

I never knew what I wanted to do because I had no idea what there was to do. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

But anyhow, I have to say that I'm feeling better after all of this and not worse.  So that's a plus.  LOL

 

At least I'm not alone.

 

 

[SarahW]

I admit to being cynical and pessimistic, but when I read about some people who came from very dire circumstances and graduated from some amazing college and went on to do amazing things all the while walking uphills both ways in a blizzard to do it, I think there are TONS of people who try to do that and they don't always get attention for it, and they don't always make it.  It's like a nice story that people love to hear/read about.  That anyone can succeed.  I just don't know what the true reality of that is though. 

 

:iagree:

 

But anyhow, I have to say that I'm feeling better after all of this and not worse.  So that's a plus.  LOL

 

At least I'm not alone.

 

You're not alone. You have bacon!

[8filltheheart]

Fwiw, in the world of college apps outside of selective schools, ECs really don't matter. Like I stated earlier, my 10th grader doesn't have them. She is a quiet introvert who loves languages and that is what she spends her time doing. No biggie, she doesn't want to go to a competitive school. We certainly don't care. :)

[creekland]

I never knew what I wanted to do because I had no idea what there was to do. 

 

Somedays I'm still not sure what I want to do.

 

If asked, I'd ideally love to backpack the world with hubby by my side.  However, there's not much income from doing that, nor am I certain the rapture will come before our funds run out, so... I stick with subbing in high school - enjoying the variety of math/science and occasional other jobs I choose - and the camaraderie with the next generation.  And I'm glad I married someone who very willingly actually earns a living for us and doesn't mind that I dabble here and there.  When I can scrape up the funds, he also willingly travels by my side too!   :coolgleamA:

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Somedays I'm still not sure what I want to do.

 

If asked, I'd ideally love to backpack the world with hubby by my side.  !   :coolgleamA:

 

My backpack can be loaded and ready in 10 minutes. 

 

Have kayak, will travel.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Somedays I'm still not sure what I want to do.

 

If asked, I'd ideally love to backpack the world with hubby by my side.  However, there's not much income from doing that, nor am I certain the rapture will come before our funds run out, so... I stick with subbing in high school - enjoying the variety of math/science and occasional other jobs I choose - and the camaraderie with the next generation.  And I'm glad I married someone who very willingly actually earns a living for us and doesn't mind that I dabble here and there.  When I can scrape up the funds, he also willingly travels by my side too!   :coolgleamA:

 

I still don't know what I want to do!

 

LOL

 

Geesh.

 

I guess maybe I'm doing it and didn't realize it.  :laugh:

[SarahW]

Fwiw, in the world of college apps outside of selective schools, ECs really don't matter. Like I stated earlier, my 10th grader doesn't have them. She is a quiet introvert who loves languages and that is what she spends her time doing. No biggie, she doesn't want to go to a competitive school. We certainly don't care. :)

 

Ok, but this discussion is about poor kids going to college for free. And those colleges require "extras." And I'm pretty sure "reading a lot of library books" isn't an extra they're looking for.

 

Free is cheaper than CC, so why do so many poor kids end up at CC? How many admitted students actually get the income-based free ride at these schools?

[Teachin'Mine]

The schools offering a free ride, or close to it, are for the most part extremely competitive with admissions.  Many top students don't get in regardless of their financial circumstances, barring the ready to donate a new building few.  Colleges a tier down from these will likely give acceptances, but then the challenge becomes how to make up for the gap, even from those who "meet 100% need" because this is often met with loans above the federal ones and counts on student contribution from summer work and work study.  For some, the gap is just too large.  I'm not saying that students should contribute because I think they should.  But work study is not guaranteed and is dependent upon jobs being available for all the students who need them.  Ideally these students should be working during high school and saving up for college expenses, but the economy for a lot of years didn't make for a lot of available teen jobs.  It also means that it might make it harder for the students to pursue their interests during the summers or they may need to work to help support the family, so nothing will be saved.  A lack of money for tuition and room and board is just the beginning.  Add on travel and the unexpected expenses that come up and things that just aren't an obstacle for other students may be huge hurdles for some lower income students.  No easy answers.  Community college fees can usually be covered by the Pell Grant, so that's a big reason why many of these students end up at cc.  Definitely not a bad idea for all, but it might not be the best for some depending on their specific situation.

 

To find out how many get a free ride, or close to it, you can look at the common data set for the percent of students who receive Pell Grants.  The percent varies at the different colleges, and varies from year to year somewhat as well. 

[8filltheheart]

Ok, but this discussion is about poor kids going to college for free. And those colleges require "extras." And I'm pretty sure "reading a lot of library books" isn't an extra they're looking for.

 

Free is cheaper than CC, so why do so many poor kids end up at CC? How many admitted students actually get the income-based free ride at these schools?

 

Honestly, Sarah, not many kids from underprivileged backgrounds are going to have the test scores to be competitive for admissions.  It is a false argument to set up denial around just the lack of ECs.  For top scoring URM  first generation college students, you will see there is typically a different curve for acceptance.  They compare to what the students have available at that school vs. what is available at "Top Prep."  But, the test scores are still going to have to be there.  LOR are going to have to be glowing. And the student is still going to be expected to be actively involved in something.

 

Is it equal?  No.  But nothing about elite admissions is "fair."   It is what it is.  Is it frustrating?  Absolutely.  But, students who would qualify for acceptance into the elite schools based on academics alone DO have the option of applying to lower ranked schools and attend on high merit awards.  Many of those are not dependent on ECs, but on academic record.  It is how our kids have attended college b/c getting accepted is irrelevant.  We can't afford to pay.  

 

This stat makes it very clear that banking on acceptance to one of the elites for education is simply bad strategy: There are 3,500,000 high school students who apply to college as entering freshman.  Approx 1% attend elite schools.  Only around 3% attend selective schools.  The odds are bad for everyone and even worse for those without the advantages of top academic experiences and test prep, etc.

 

Basically, my point is while I don't think the chances of admittance are equivalent to the randomness of the lottery b/c acceptance isn't random, the odds of being accepted are very, very unlikely.