athomeontheprairie Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Not only can I not answer the question on the other thread, I'm not even sure I understand the question! We were only taught grammar for one semester and eighth-grade, And that was pretty basic grammar :-) So how much grammar do you think should be taught? And why? The question on the other thread is so abstract to me, I can't grasp whyit matters. At all.If the sentence sounds correct, isn't that enough? Grammar gurus, help me understand. ( and maybe what you were using, at what ages.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikslo Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I have never taught any English grammar. My kids only encountered grammar within their foreign language studies. They are using the English language with correct grammar and semantics and are able to identify mistakes in incorrect sentences. DD received very high scores on standardized tests and does extremely well in her college English courses. That's all I need them to be able to do. Classifying different clauses and diagramming sentences are not skills I require. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 .If the sentence sounds correct, isn't that enough? No, that is not enough. The sentence does not just need to sound correct, it needs to be correct. Many people will find that a sentence sounds correct to them when, in fact, it contains mistakes. OTOH, if a student unfailingly identifies any incorrect sentence as sounding wrong, that would be enough grammar mastery for me :-) 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 OTOH, if a student unfailingly identifies any incorrect sentence as sounding wrong, that would be enough grammar mastery for me :-) Yes: some children pick up correct grammar from reading quality books. They only need a little guidance. Others don't have the ear for it, and need more help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomeontheprairie Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 No, that is not enough. The sentence does not just need to sound correct, it needs to be correct. Many people will find that a sentence sounds correct to them when, in fact, it contains mistakes. OTOH, if a student unfailingly identifies any incorrect sentence as sounding wrong, that would be enough grammar mastery for me :-) then the question remains, how much grammar needs to be taught? I don't understand the question on the other thread. But I'm fairly well read . I write well enough for my demographics. I'm competent at my job. so at what point is enough enough for the average person? ( and I do understand I don't want to limit my kids to my shortcomings... if having these skills is a true need then I will learn right along with them. Rather right ahead of them :-). ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 No, that is not enough. The sentence does not just need to sound correct, it needs to be correct. Many people will find that a sentence sounds correct to them when, in fact, it contains mistakes. OTOH, if a student unfailingly identifies any incorrect sentence as sounding wrong, that would be enough grammar mastery for me :-) :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Oh, my ears hurt daily because of the incorrect grammar I hear, and my eyeballs bleed from the things I read. I don't believe that native speakers of English need to study their own grammar for 12 years, but I do believe that it is apparent that there needs to be at least a few years of grammar study. In school, teachers should be requiring good grammar from everything their students write, whether it's an English assignment or a science paper. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Did y'all see all them Buffaloes? ;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Did y'all see all them Buffaloes? ;) :laugh: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 then the question remains, how much grammar needs to be taught? I don't understand the question on the other thread. But I'm fairly well read . I write well enough for my demographics. I'm competent at my job. so at what point is enough enough for the average person? ( and I do understand I don't want to limit my kids to my shortcomings... if having these skills is a true need then I will learn right along with them. Rather right ahead of them :-). ) I have no idea about "average person" and "my demographics", since those criteria do not matter to me. I want my children to use grammar correctly - irrespective of what any "demographic" or the "average person" is doing. They need to know how to speak and write correctly and should know when to use "whom" and that the past subjunctive of to be is " I were" and not "I was" - even of they are surrounded by people who say "ain't" and "Me and her gone to the store" and "the horse needs rode". So, the amount of grammar that needs to be taught (or better, that needs to be learned, because it does not have to be acquired through implicit teaching) is whatever is needed to ensure that they will sound like educated people who have a firm grasp on the grammar of the English language. Nobody will ever ask them to identify a particle or clause, but educated people will notice whether they can speak and write correctly. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I don't know how much grammar is necessary. More than I got; I know that! Anyway, it's fun. Word puzzles and playing around with sentence structure seems to be a good Pre-Logic course. I figure when I've struck at everything that is in my Warriner's Complete Course, I'll be ready to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 So, the amount of grammar that needs to be taught (or better, that needs to be learned, because it does not have to be acquired through implicit teaching) is whatever is needed to ensure that they will sound like educated people who have a firm grasp on the grammar of the English language. Nobody will ever ask them to identify a particle or clause, but educated people will notice whether they can speak and write correctly. That's not always true. Some very specific grammar questions were asked on standardized tests one of mine has taken. And I have no choice because it's part of the regulation for homeschooling here. But yeah generally I agree they will get through life not knowing what a gerund phrase is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 How much grammar is necessary? Necessary for what? This is a big country and a big world with so many subcultures and careers. There is no one-sized-fits-all grammar goal and no one-sized-fits-all way to get there.There isn't even one set of American grammar rules, never mind one set of English rules. Grammar isn't stagnant. It changes with the times and differs in different areas. Trying to master it is like trying to master the wind. Grammar police are like the fashion police. Yes, they will sneer at you for not following the current and local man-made rules of their subculture, but YOU have to decide whether you are going to submit to them or not, and how much. For some of us, life is too short to try and please the grammar and fashion police. Yes, it's easier and more productive not to totally ignore them or to be totally ignorant of their sneers and the trends they set, but for most of us our lives are better not trying to completely win their approval. Is it truly important not to wear white shoes after Labor Day? No, but you might have to follow that rule if you want to be accepted into certain subcultures and careers. Me, I just wear my hiking books all year. :001_tt2: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Not to derail, but what is with the buffaloes? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I don't think I'd ever be happy if I thought that understanding grammar would turn me into a grammar cop. I don't study it to try to catch all my mistakes. I'd love to think I could master enough to do that. But realistically, no. I hope the boys, studying at a younger age and for more years, will be able to catch their own mistakes in a first draft. I hope that they will be comfortable enough to read through their sentences and say to themselves, "You know, I could be more concise with this sentence if I pull an infinitive out of the bag and use it here!" Grammar is sort of my Pre-Logic course for the boys. I'm not fond of a lot of the critical thinking puzzle books and they are not ready for formal Logic. They probably won't be ready for another two, maybe three years! Grammar, along with Latin and Math, is providing plenty of practice in thinking puzzles. I like subjects that turn out to be two for one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikslo Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Sorry. Updated with link. I guess it didn't catch the first time. It's a grammar sentence that I learned about in college. If you can understand that sentence, then you know more than you need to about grammar. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 How much grammar is necessary? Necessary for what? This is a big country and a big world with so many subcultures and careers. There is no one-sized-fits-all grammar goal and no one-sized-fits-all way to get there.There isn't even one set of American grammar rules, never mind one set of English rules. Grammar isn't stagnant. It changes with the times and differs in different areas. Trying to master it is like trying to master the wind. Grammar police are like the fashion police. Yes, they will sneer at you for not following the current and local man-made rules of their subculture, but YOU have to decide whether you are going to submit to them or not, and how much. For some of us, life is too short to try and please the grammar and fashion police. Yes, it's easier and more productive not to totally ignore them or to be totally ignorant of their sneers and the trends they set, but for most of us our lives are better not trying to completely win their approval. I have no idea what it has to do with "life is too short". Learning to use grammar correctly is not that complicated or time consuming: English is a weakly infected language and has no gender and no declensions; there is not a whole lot of grammar, compared to many other languages. As for the wind: there seems to be a pretty solid consensus what constitutes correct grammar; only a few minor issues continue to be a subject of debate. Of course, nobody needs to bother to speak or write with standard grammar. I fail, however, to see why our lives would be better not to do so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitterpatter Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Is there such a thing as enough grammar? Let me tell you that when I reached college I was spitting-nails mad at my inadequate rural public school grammar education. Relying on ones ability to compose decent-sounding sentences is not adequate for college-level research papers. And if your child takes a grammar class for English or Journalism, forget it. I mostly made As in college, but my grammar and editing classes were a struggle. The kids from larger St. Louis county schools breezed through the basics (and beyond) while I had to learn it from the ground up at an accelerated pace. (And, I was light years better off than some of my peers.) In my opinion, unless you are Don Ranly, you don't know enough grammar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 No, that is not enough. The sentence does not just need to sound correct, it needs to be correct. Who gets to decide what IS correct? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerforest Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I manage a team of 10 writers for a very large high-tech company, and it's incredibly important for me to be able to be able to give them feedback using objective and common terminology. Our editor also needs to be able to assume that writers will understand her feedback. My DD laughs when she hears me in a meeting saying something that she and I talked about in school. Once, right after she and I were talking about capitalization, I was then in a teleconference discussing the proper capitalization and punctuation for terms in product's user interface, and she understood everything I was saying even though some of the engineers didn't. Yes, UX engineers, information architects, technical writers, and other folks working in high-tech companies definitely have many heated discussions about these topics. It's not because they're grammar police. Rather, customers will notice incorrect spellings, inconsistent grammar, confusing terminology, etc., and they'll draw some very negative impressions about the product as a result. So, yes, I think having a solid conceptual understanding of grammar and ability to implement it is as important as having a solid conceptual background in math. I don't know where her career will take her, but I plan on her being prepared. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momto4inSoCal Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I just keep going with the next level up in grammar. I know we are going to have grammar as a separate subject through middle school and most likely 9th grade. I'm not sure about 10th grade. I guess we will see when we get there. I was just looking at the R&S english books and they do go pretty in depth with grammar. I feel like my 3rd grader has done amazing with R&S so I can only imagine a kid that has used it for 8 years. My grammar knowledge was/is very basic. I'm really glad I am getting to learn (and teach) beyond what I've been taught. It's amazing how much more I appreciate and enjoy knowledge now versus when I was growing up. My daughter does not like school (other than history) but in spite of that I'm making sure she knows grammar and how to spell better than I ever did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Rather, customers will notice incorrect spellings, inconsistent grammar, confusing terminology, etc., and they'll draw some very negative impressions about the product as a result. Yes, definitely. It may not even be a conscious process - but errors like this indicate that, at minimum, the author lacks attention to detail or is unwilling to make an effort. Ask me about the student emails I get.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I just wonder how long it takes to successfully internalize enough grammar to result in reasonably correct first drafts. I'd love to get to that point in my grammar studies. That would certainly help determine at what point to stop with the instruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventuresinHomeschooling Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 While many people can "get by" without knowing gerunds, complicated verbals and advanced rules, I think you should try to understand much more than the average person. I grew up as a grammar person and corrected everyone else including my mother. I thought I knew a lot until I married an editor. He uses things every day that make his skills stay sharp. Facebook and the Internet and autocorrect are actively working to dumb down the English language. I appreciate the example of the technical manual above. Whether your child is planning to become a writer or not, everyone needs to know how to communicate well. Anyone who is college bound needs to be able to write a well-constructed paper with correct grammar and usage. In my Ph.D. Program, I assisted teaching classes, and the average student's writing skills are abysmal. They are so bad that many professors are not addressing them due to time constraints and retention rates. They argue that they are teaching x subject, not grammar and writing. (I, frankly, find that appalling.) However, college campuses are now having to teach what should have been taught in high school, and the quality of education suffers as a whole. This may not happen at more high brow universities, but it is a common issue in regional state schools. In my opinion, grammar is a skill. It needs to be continually sharpened, and it is a skill that sweeps across all disciplines. In any business, you need to create reports, manuals and marketing materials. In higher academics, you will NEED to write papers and communicate your ideas. Even in math and science, your research is useless if you cannot publish it in a peer-reviewed journal. In any job, you need to be able to construct a good email or letter to communicate at some point. A grammar mistake on your resume can kill you in any career. At the very least, you need to be able to spell, write paragraphs and essays with a cohesive thesis, use proper punctuation and capitalization and use proper verb tenses. You need to be able to proofread. Lack of writing skills will hinder many goals starting with your college admissions essay. These skills are not something you attain and move on, but should increase with growth and development. I look back on my high school essays, which were well-written and received good grades, and I see all the ways they could be stronger. This is as it should be if you are continually growing and strengthening your mind. In my opinion, the amount of grammar that I should be teaching is a little more than they already know. At some point, often in high school, grammar and writing merge together and can be attained simultaneously. That is not to say that there aren't things that can still be learned separately in grammar. I learned an incredible amount of grammar in my college Advanced Grammar class. However, for most people, the endeavors merge. I would also refer to TWTM for a full scope and sequence of grammar and usage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparrowsNest Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Well, we have language in order to communicate our thoughts and ideas with each other. Grammar enhances this purpose by setting down linguistic rules which facilitate and improve communication. Off the top of my head, I would say there are three basic levels of grammar knowledge. The first would be the grammar native speakers pick up without having been taught. That is, they can communicate and they can construct intelligible sentences, even if their grammar is occasionally (or even often) technically incorrect. At the next level, the person understands some or most of the 'what' (parts of speech, phrases, clauses, etc.) and some or most of the 'how' (subject/verb agreement, parallel structure, effective use of punctuation, etc.) of language. At the third level, people discuss things like bare infinitives. :D No, I suppose at the third level you have linguists. For my own children, my goal is to equip them to be effective communicators. As long as they fall on the upper end of the second level, I think they will possess have the skills to communicate effectively in a variety of settings. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I manage a team of 10 writers for a very large high-tech company, and it's incredibly important for me to be able to be able to give them feedback using objective and common terminology. Our editor also needs to be able to assume that writers will understand her feedback. My DD laughs when she hears me in a meeting saying something that she and I talked about in school. Once, right after she and I were talking about capitalization, I was then in a teleconference discussing the proper capitalization and punctuation for terms in product's user interface, and she understood everything I was saying even though some of the engineers didn't. Yes, UX engineers, information architects, technical writers, and other folks working in high-tech companies definitely have many heated discussions about these topics. It's not because they're grammar police. Rather, customers will notice incorrect spellings, inconsistent grammar, confusing terminology, etc., and they'll draw some very negative impressions about the product as a result. So, yes, I think having a solid conceptual understanding of grammar and ability to implement it is as important as having a solid conceptual background in math. I don't know where her career will take her, but I plan on her being prepared. I am an ex-engineer, and I used to do technical writing. So I can relate to this post! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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