School for a kid with no friends?

[TranquilMind]

Well, I'll go ahead and post this, but I'm sure there will be people that disagree.  If my child EVER did that to me, then they would get put in time out and told to stay there.  If they jumped down ( like my daughter did when she was three) then they get one swat and put back on the chair...one minute for every year they are.  Now, I also know this is a culture thing, but when I told them to do something at that age, they had one answer: yes mam.  PERIOD.  You do NOT argue with my authority.  EVER.  I was the boss.

 

Now with teenagers they have much, much, much more authority over their own life.  But preschool and elementary was the time for unquestioning obedience to my authority.  Period.

I'm having a hard time imagining a 5 year old being rude and using sarcasm.  That just doesn't seem age-appropriate. 

 

Teens, yeah...but not a 5 year old. 

 

I'm with you.  "Yes ma'am" is the only appropriate response when I give a direction. Direction and correction flows only ONE way in this house. 

[TranquilMind]

I completely disagree.

 

I have seen all kinds of children make these kinds of threats.There are even books about it.

 

I know that there are families, low-key nice families, where this doesn't happen. We are not among them. I don't think that my entire family and everyone I know has a mental illness. Really, I swear, we are decent, productive, caring people. We don't watch TV.

 

Sometimes our kids say "I HATE YOU!" They use all the meanest words they know. They're kids. 

At FIVE? 

That seems really young to be acting out in such a hostile way as in the OP, to me, absent some sort of trauma. 

[Anne in CA]

When my ds was five he went through a time of wanting to understand death. He asked deep questions like "The Aztec people worshiped lots of gods, so how do we know that our God is the right one?" Gifted kids say things that seem to come from nowhere. Gifted kids can seem pathological to regular people.

[Tsuga]

I'm having a hard time imagining a 5 year old being rude and using sarcasm.  That just doesn't seem age-appropriate. 

 

Teens, yeah...but not a 5 year old. 

 

 

You can have my kids. They're tons of fun. Super advanced in smartassery.

 

Just because your kids didn't do it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[IsabelC]

If your little man finds socializing a challenge in a safe environment with you, chances are he'd find it much harder in school. You can't make a child be more social by placing him into a socially complex (and sometimes frightening) environment. That is like saying "My kid has trouble with CVC words, that's because I have been 'sheltering' him with easy phonics books, so now I'll make him read War and Peace by himself". 

[LucyStoner]

At FIVE?

That seems really young to be acting out in such a hostile way as in the OP, to me, absent some sort of trauma.

My five year old, on noting that he'd made a mistake would scream "I hate myself, I should die, I'm going to stab myself to death right now". He'd pair this with self injury like banging his fists on his head or biting his arm hard enough to nearly or slightly break the skin. Sometimes it would be projected outwards too. I guarantee you he lives in a stable, un-traumatic home and wasn't learning that from us or anything we let him see. I joked that maybe guilt is an epigenetic thing. He also had a very nuanced sense of humor with sarcasm, word play, puns, dead pan, and black humor elements. Different kids are, well, different. He does all of the acting out much less now, but it wasn't as simple as just saying "no, we don't do that" or sending him to timeout.

[merry gardens]

You can have my kids. They're tons of fun. Super advanced in smartassery.

 

Just because your kids didn't do it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

Binip--do you even recognize your own use of sarcasm?  If your children use sarcasm, perhaps it's learned behavior.

[fairfarmhand]

Binip--do you even recognize your own use of sarcasm?  If your children use sarcasm, perhaps it's learned behavior.

 

Of course kids, even small ones can learn sarcasm. Our family has quite a dry, somewhat sarcastic sense of humor. Sometimes it is used appropriately. Sometimes it is not. It's not a right or wrong dichotomy. Just like "typical" kid silliness and comic relief can be used at the wrong time, sarcasm can be misused as well.

 

How many times have we told moms of littles that silliness is normal, even when mom is not in the mood for it. You have to teach kids when and where silliness, sarcasm, and joking around is appropriate and when it is not.

 

My kids got sarcasm and wordplays at very young ages. We still struggle sometimes about learning to not use it cuttingly. I can imagine that 5 yos need tons of direction in so many areas. The presence of sarcasm doesn't indicate "something is horribly wrong here!" just like the presence of silliness doesn't indicate that either. it's both inappropriate at certain times.

[Tsuga]

Binip--do you even recognize your own use of sarcasm? If your children use sarcasm, perhaps it's learned behavior.

Of course to some extent it's learned but it's not learned in a pathological way. I am not saying it's not learned but that it's well within the range of normal.

 

Do you mean to say, you do not use irony, sarcasm, or hyperbole, nor does anyone in your social circle, so your children haven't learned it?

 

Well, we all use it and nobody is stopping any time soon. I just do not think that the use of sarcasm or hyperbole at five is unusual or at least not pathologically so. While it may be a cultural trait, so not universal, that's not enough to make me re-think it.

 

Note that my kids would probably act out at times with or without sarcasm and hyperbole in their toolbox. They're stubborn little goats born to stubborn big goats. That does not make them ill or traumatized.

[Guest]

This is by no means an exclusively gifted trait.

 

I dare say I've yet to meet a child who didn't adore the patience of adults and hate being talked down to.

 

Gifted children may exhibit this trait in addition to being able to hold their own in the conversation, but attitude and lack of willingness to entertain others is hardly evidence of giftedness.

 

Deleted sarcasm. But i want to say that immediately jumping into diagnoses which are found at most among 7% of the population, and that's the absolute highest estimates anywhere for ADD, ADHD, ASD, or giftedness, from "my kid is not listening to me and throws fits" is just really inappropriate. Throwing around those terms as if any of these normal childhood behaviors were in any way a sign of a more serious problem or really unusual issue like top .5% IQ, is misleading.

 

The vast majority of children will exhibit one or two things that are also especially pronounced in the common atypical syndromes. They just won't meet enough criteria, it won't be as intense.

Good point! My husband and I are both well into the top quartile in terms of IQs, and our kids follow that predictably. But out of my five, right now I'd say only one is looking highly to profoundly gifted and the rest are just bright, fairly normal kids. And ALL have had various discipline and personality challenges :)

[Guest]

Structure structure structure....

 

At 5 he needs a little counting time, handwriting, letters practice...and that's pretty much it. The religious education will come in time. Toss in some science-y books from the library. Max 1 hour of book work.

 

Basically, work on getting him into a routine every day. It takes work because sometimes these kids just hate being told what to do and will balk for no other reason than you told them to do it. However, it is indispensable to have a morning routine. Breakfast, get dressed, brush teeth, etc. every single morning no matter what. Even if at first it takes 3 hours to get there, work on that. Then slowly add in other stuff. I have a kid who doesn't handle interruptions to her routine well, and having a routine meant that mornings were on autopilot after a time.

 

Does the word routine or structure sound better to you than a schedule? I am married to someone who balks at any kind of routine; he says it makes him feel stifled. (Can you see where my daughter gets her hatred of being "bossed around"?) But my dd needed it, badly. If you work at it, pretty soon your boy will be working the routine without balking.

This woman is a genius, listen to her.

[fairfarmhand]

This woman is a genius, listen to her.

 

Actually, survivor is a better word.

 

I've got one of these kids. They are not easy at all. I just survived and was smart enough to learn one or two things along the way.

[Petrichor]

Ok, so how is this for a schedule? I feel like this isn't enough, and I can't imagine how we'll be able to finish english in 10 min, but maybe working with this schedule will help us get SET into a routine?

 

We followed it last evening, and this morning/day, and I think it is going well. He actually washed his face! :P

 

Morning:

wake up

bathroom

teeth

face

dress

eat

10 min memorization qur'an

school/day's schedule

 

 

Evening

 

10 min qur'an memorization (with dad)

arabic on m/w, urdu on t/th 

play with dad

dinner

brush teeth

bathroom

pajamas

story

evening prayers

sleep

 

 

 

Mon

english 10 min

math 10 min

art (project)

 

Tuesday

religion story

science 

history 

 

Wednesday

english 10 min

Math 10 min

sewing 

 

Thursday

farm share day

field trip

 

Friday

mosque

religion story

monthly theme (eg. nature study, artist study) class (10-20 min)

 

 

 

 

[Petrichor]

I spoke with a friend today and I realized that DS is really, really social, he's just not around a lot of kids his own age. DH and I on the other hand, are very asocial. 

 

I'm sure I said upthread that he likes to have conversations with our (adult) neighbors. Yesterday, he found some kids (upper elementary age) playing outside in the neighborhood and joined in on their baseball game. 

[fairfarmhand]

That sounds really great.

 

And as far as English...are youj actually studying like Grammar (unnecessary at age 5 IMHO) or just learning to speak English? Because you are pretty articulate online, can you just talk to him and let him learn English that way?

 

If it's working, then you may want to listen to your son's behavior for your stamp of approval.

[fairfarmhand]

And BTW, this IS plenty for a 5 yo. I totally promise it will be okay! Especially when you add in there plenty of cuddles and books with mama.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Everything I'd suggest is in this thread from a few weeks ago.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542143-moms-of-difficult-kids-there-is-hope-an-update-on-tigger/

[Petrichor]

That sounds really great.

 

And as far as English...are youj actually studying like Grammar (unnecessary at age 5 IMHO) or just learning to speak English? Because you are pretty articulate online, can you just talk to him and let him learn English that way?

 

If it's working, then you may want to listen to your son's behavior for your stamp of approval.

 

English is his first language. I'm teaching phonics, spelling, and handwriting using WRTR. Doing a lesson or 2 a week of FLL. 

 

Planning to stick to reading practice and handwriting/spelling (with the occasional phonics flash card review, as necessary) until he becomes more compliant.

 

 

Our biggest concern is with the angry threats of violence. Hoping that making things more predictable will make him happier to be compliant :)

[Petrichor]

My five year old, on noting that he'd made a mistake would scream "I hate myself, I should die, I'm going to stab myself to death right now". He'd pair this with self injury like banging his fists on his head or biting his arm hard enough to nearly or slightly break the skin. Sometimes it would be projected outwards too. I guarantee you he lives in a stable, un-traumatic home and wasn't learning that from us or anything we let him see. I joked that maybe guilt is an epigenetic thing. He also had a very nuanced sense of humor with sarcasm, word play, puns, dead pan, and black humor elements. Different kids are, well, different. He does all of the acting out much less now, but it wasn't as simple as just saying "no, we don't do that" or sending him to timeout.

 

I don't think DS has ever acted in that way. All of his anger is projected outwardly. 

[Petrichor]

I'm going back and "liking" posts in case notifications aren't working. (Did I read that correctly in another thread?)

 

If the current counselor is not helping, I would suggest seeing a different one and/or a psychiatrist.  The "walking on eggshells/glass" thing is a red flag for more serious issues.  A developmental pediatrician might also be helpful.

 

My daughter was a lot like that when younger and was later determined to have a mood disorder and with proper medication we could focus on parenting and now things are much better.

 

You might not have anything that serious but it would be worth addressing now.

 

They have a psychiatrist at the clinic that this psychologist works at, but the psychiatrist only sees patients once the psychologist has determined that drugs may be helpful.

 

So, how long would you give the therapist? 

 

We've had three visits with this one. 

 

During the most recent visit, DS went alone, they played a game (some sort of board game where there's no winner or loser) and chatted. 

 

Does this seem normal? What would I expect if we were to see a developmental ped? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Petrichor]

Sorry, Ottakkee, I later realized that I responded to your post already :) Added more info, since we had another visit with the therapist. 

 

*sigh* I went into this hoping that we could get away with only a handful of visits. I feel like we are still pretty much at square one. :(

[fairfarmhand]

English is his first language. I'm teaching phonics, spelling, and handwriting using WRTR. Doing a lesson or 2 a week of FLL. 

 

Planning to stick to reading practice and handwriting/spelling (with the occasional phonics flash card review, as necessary) until he becomes more compliant.

 

 

Our biggest concern is with the angry threats of violence. Hoping that making things more predictable will make him happier to be compliant :)

 

It probably will help.

 

Also, keep in mind that many bright kids may be intellectually capable of doing certain things but not have the emotional maturity to do it.

 

My dd was an excellent reader. She was capable of reading long chapter books in the first grade. However, she hated doing it. Why? She said it took too long to get to the end of the story. She was impatient. So she was intellectually advanced but didn't have the maturity to stick it out to the end of the story. We've had similar experiences throughout her school years. Advanced understanding of topics, without the maturity to really take advantage of her intelligence. \

 

And you know what? It's okay. She is who she is. She's not a failure because of this. I wish I had learned this way earlier in our school years.  But no, i had to prove that I was an amazing homeschooling mom! It was more about me and my pride and my judging myself by her accomplishments. I wish I had listened to her more instead of pushing. Her tantrums and all were not only the result of her intense, passionate personality. Some of them were because I didn't appreciate that some things can't be rushed.

 

So listen to your son and what he's trying to tell you. Let him be little. Work with his personality, not against it.

 

[Arcadia]

Read Hoppy's thread on Tigger which she posted the link a few posts ahead. She has gone through similar to what you posted.

 

My older boy thrive on structure for everything, it was his "security blanket". Change upset him at your son's age. He would throw things but would be able to calm down gradually at his "sulking corner".

My younger boy thrive on social. Activities outside the house keeps him from being down.

 

My boys actually needed longer time of academics at your son's age. 10mins would barely warm the seat for them and they would just continue. They do better with longer duration of the same thing.

 

It takes time to figure out your son's anger triggers.

[StephanieZ]

You've gotten a lot of good feedback.

 

Seems to me that what you are doing is not working, so you are going to have to suck it up and do some things differently. 

 

Of the many good ideas you've been offered, you will need to pick some of them and commit to them. 

 

If your child needs a schedule and regular bed times, etc, then you are just going to have to suck it up, and do it. I hate schedules, too, so I feel your pain. I managed to get my kids this far without firm schedules ever, but now I have a mom with Alzheimer's living with us, and, guess what, everyone is telling me she needs a schedule. Crap. I hate that. Feels so institutional and un-fun, but, there you have it. I've hired help to be here to get her morning schedule set, as mornings are my least favorite time, so I'd rather not have to cajole and argue with her in the mornings. (Getting a grown woman, your mom no less, out of bed is not as easy as getting a little kid up!! Can't just grab her and haul her under my arm to the bathroom . . . LOL)  So, anyway, I think the most obvious thing you have to try is a firm schedule for 3-4 weeks. Commit yourself to a month and see if it make enough of an improvement to be worth continuing. If you put him in any school, you'll have to deal with a schedule, so you may as well do it at home. At least at home, you could make it an 8 AM wake up instead of 6 AM . . .

 

A firm bed time will also be needed.

 

The beauty of a predictable schedule for your child is that he probably will fight it LESS than the changeable schedule you have going now, because with you changing things day to day, it is a constant control issue . . . 

 

I also agree with those who posted that you really shouldn't tolerate rudeness or disobedience. That's never OK in my house. 

[Ottakee]

I'm going back and "liking" posts in case notifications aren't working. (Did I read that correctly in another thread?)

 

 

They have a psychiatrist at the clinic that this psychologist works at, but the psychiatrist only sees patients once the psychologist has determined that drugs may be helpful.

 

So, how long would you give the therapist? 

 

We've had three visits with this one. 

 

During the most recent visit, DS went alone, they played a game (some sort of board game where there's no winner or loser) and chatted. 

 

Does this seem normal? What would I expect if we were to see a developmental ped? 

It can take time to build a rapport with a therapist.  That said, is she doing some joint things with you and dh as well or just with you?  honestly , at 5, so much of it is parenting and she might work on a technique with him for a bit but then make sure that you and dh know what was taught and how to respond to him and how to help him respond positively.  Since you are with him all the time, a lot of the training with be helping you deal with his issues and over time helping him handle them better as well.

[Alessandra]

I'm going back and "liking" posts in case notifications aren't working. (Did I read that correctly in another thread?)

 

 

They have a psychiatrist at the clinic that this psychologist works at, but the psychiatrist only sees patients once the psychologist has determined that drugs may be helpful.

 

So, how long would you give the therapist?

 

We've had three visits with this one.

 

During the most recent visit, DS went alone, they played a game (some sort of board game where there's no winner or loser) and chatted.

 

Does this seem normal? What would I expect if we were to see a developmental ped?

I tend to agree with Ottakee that you may be dealing more with developmental issues than with parenting skills. The 'tiptoeing through broken glass' comment really jumped out at me too. A lot of time-tested, wonderful parenting techniques simply do not work with certain kids, so it can be very helpful to get opinions about what is going on.

 

Personally, I would concentrate on diagnoses before therapy. Our ped always suggests getting evals from more than one type of professional, because each type of provider has a different skill set and point of view. That said, a developmental ped is good to start with, because they look at the broad picture -- physical, medical, cognitive, emotional. There can be long waits for dev ped appointments, but worth it, imo. Insurance should cover.

 

Iirc, the dev ped appointment will include getting a family history from you, a physical for the child, slightly different from a usual physical, as they are looking for tiny physical signs that may indicate some developmental difference. They test cognitive development with block play, specific activities that are part of developmental tests. They will look at gross and fine motor. Speech may be referred to a ST and an audiologist (routine). If there were questions about any area, another specialist would be asked to follow up.

 

After the session, you should get a detailed, multi-page report with the observations and test results. This is very useful to have if you later chose to pursue additional therapies.

 

My preference is for a dev ped in a hospital setting, because he/she can wrk with a team of other specialists as needed. It could be a neurologist, psychologist, geneticist, speech therapist, occupational therapist, etc., whatever is needed for your child.

 

I generally think that I want a positive sense of progress from a therapist from the first visit. By sense of progress, I don't mean immediate improvement, but something that gives me more understanding, some tool I can use right away. Often, it helps to be told what behaviors you cannot fix now, just wait through the situation, versus other things that you could change now.

 

Every psychiatrist, psychologist I have been too uses game play. It can be very effective when therapist observes and shares what is going on. And very time consuming when the games and talk are more random getting to know you session at $$$ per session. BTDT, both types. And of course, JMHO.

[flyingiguana]

Some kids respond well or ok to this. For some kids though, it just creates a downward spiral of anger issues, power struggles and stress for the whole family. Some kids require a level of patience, flexibility and facilitating success rather than admonishment and rigid punishment.

 

We've had a lot of success with the Nurture My Heart approach. http://www.amazon.com/Nurture-Heart-A-Nurtured-Approach-Handbook/dp/0983861013

Agreed.

 

A kid who is really willful won't even notice a spanking.  Or if they do, they just get angrier.

 

I wouldn't go with just one strategy.  I'd try a few things, see if anything worked.  But at 5, it might just be normal for him to act this way.

 

It would also be totally normal for him to not be ready for academics yet.  And he might show that by acting sassy.  I wouldn't expect a kid that age to be able to sit down calmly and say, you know, mom, I think I'm just not ready to read yet.  Can we put that on the back burner for now and work on something else?  

 

He has a fair amount of time for the academics.  I wouldn't stress about that for another year or so.

 

I've also always found that rigorous academics just do not sit well with my kids.  They tend to learn what they need through other means.  In high school, things have had to get more focused, but at that point, they've taken the initiative themselves.  My telling the kids to do this or that thing never really ended well.  Even if they did what I wanted to please me, they still didn't LEARN the stuff.   

[flyingiguana]

I'll add that the op's son sounds a lot like my oldest at that age.

 

She's still a difficult personality, but she did get into multiple colleges with good financial aid, got through college with a difficult major and almost a straight A average, and is now holding down a good technical job with lots of potential for moving up.  She's self supporting and has a friend group.  

 

And she IS potty trained, I'm happy to report.  Which she was not at 5 yrs of age, due to her immense stubbornness.