Skip ahead in math yes or no

[nknapp5]

My ds has been very bored with math, always. During saxon 6/5 I have had him do lesson practice and at times skip mixed practice. He tells me all the time, "mom I already know this". He is now on lesson 90 of 120. With saxon there are tests every 10 lessons. After talking to a friend she suggested letting him do the tests, which would be 4 more, and be done. Has anyone tried this? I haven't bought saxon 7/6 but assume the first half will be review anyhow. I just don't want to make a mistake and then have to go back over it!

[tshirtyogapantmama]

How old is your ds? I would go along with your friend. If he makes mistakes on the test you can go back and have him to the lessons. 

[elmerRex]

Give him the final exam tomorrow--if he aces it: 100% perfect, no mistakes or errors of anykind then yes you are done. The strength of Saxon is that it allows almost anyone to build mastery and long term retention of the concepts and skills. With Saxon it isn't about the ability to remember, tomorrow, but next month, next year. It is about being able to use what you know fluently and easily long after you finish the last page.

 

If you do not accept pauses and uncertainty about reading words that a student "should" know, then do not accept pauses and uncertainty about a math topic that the student "should" know. That is my interpretation of Saxon philosophy.

 

Saxon is wonderous for many, many people. For us, it absolutely works and I love it, my son loves it. Hooray.

But it isn't the universal top of the math tower.

There is more to math than Saxon, but the math that Saxon covers, it covers to mastery.

 

Your son may be able to easily go into the next book. Or it may be that he doesn't need Saxon at this level. Good luck.

 

[Ellie]

My ds has been very bored with math, always. During saxon 6/5 I have had him do lesson practice and at times skip mixed practice. He tells me all the time, "mom I already know this". He is now on lesson 90 of 120. With saxon there are tests every 10 lessons. After talking to a friend she suggested letting him do the tests, which would be 4 more, and be done. Has anyone tried this? I haven't bought saxon 7/6 but assume the first half will be review anyhow. I just don't want to make a mistake and then have to go back over it!

 

I have known of people to let their dc do just the tests. But *I* would require the dc to get 100% on every test in order for him to move on to the next book.

 

Did you give him the placement test before he started 65?

 

If you let him move on to 76, he needs to do every problem in every problem set.

[BobDonaldson-WHA]

One thing to remember about rushing ahead in math is that lower level courses are a foundation for higher level ones.  This is especially significant when children reach traditional "junior high" age, when there is pressure to rush ahead into Algebra 1 before they are developmentally ready to handle those abstract concepts.  One idea with Saxon would be to supplement with a more conceptual approach (like Singapore) rather than just rushing to the next level.  Learning to work the problems to a 100% correct level is important, but grasping the underlying concepts is at least that important.

[nknapp5]

Ds is 10 soon to be 11. We have always done saxon so no placement test has ever been given. I understand the need to get a good foundation to move on to the upper level math. It is just right now, at this point in time, he seems more bored with it than usual and I want him to love math. We have talked about using a different program but the thought of switching at this point stresses me out a bit! I do love saxon but for a student that seems to be "good at" math it doesn't seem like a good fit at times

[sweetpea3829]

I don't know anything about Saxon...

 

That said...if you don't want to move him ahead, try supplementing him where he's at.  There are so many options.

 

Beast Academy is great.  Start him in the 3rd grade level, even though he's beyond that grade.  Trust me, there's challenging stuff in that 3rd grade book.  

 

 

[dereksurfs]

Ds is 10 soon to be 11. We have always done saxon so no placement test has ever been given. I understand the need to get a good foundation to move on to the upper level math. It is just right now, at this point in time, he seems more bored with it than usual and I want him to love math. We have talked about using a different program but the thought of switching at this point stresses me out a bit! I do love saxon but for a student that seems to be "good at" math it doesn't seem like a good fit at times

 

Saxon is 'very' spiral in nature and for some students it is painfully so.  Like any math program it works better for some than others.  Saxon seems to be a watershed program in this way.  I don't think I've ever seen any other program with as many strong like/dislike reviews.  All that says to me is it is not for every child.

 

The description you have given for you ds seems like classic symptoms of this possibly not being the best fit for him.  If changing stresses you out maybe cut out some of the spiral/redundant aspects of the program.  I know for CLE, which we used and is also spiral, many parents will move ahead once a child demonstrates mastery.  Spiral by its very nature is redundant to some extent.  It is designed this way to help reinforce concepts learned.  If a student is bright and quick to learn this may seem like talking down to them intellectually since they 'got it' the first time.  In those cases a mastery program like Math Mammoth, Singapore, et al may actually be a better fit and more interesting to them. 

[nknapp5]

Saxon is 'very' spiral in nature and for some students it is painfully so. Like any math program it works better for some than others. Saxon seems to be a watershed program in this way. I don't think I've ever seen any other program with as many strong like/dislike reviews. All that says to me is it is not for every child.

 

The description you have given for you ds seems like classic symptoms of this possibly not being the best fit for him. If changing stresses you out maybe cut out some of the spiral/redundant aspects of the program. I know for CLE, which we used and is also spiral, many parents will move ahead once a child demonstrates mastery. Spiral by its very nature is redundant to some extent. It is designed this way to help reinforce concepts learned. If a student is bright and quick to learn this may seem like talking down to them intellectually since they 'got it' the first time. In those cases a mastery program like Math Mammoth, Singapore, et al may actually be a better fit and more interesting to them.

I have been considering CLE. Would this be too much like saxon to make the switch?

[Ellie]

Ds is 10 soon to be 11. We have always done saxon so no placement test has ever been given. I understand the need to get a good foundation to move on to the upper level math. It is just right now, at this point in time, he seems more bored with it than usual and I want him to love math. We have talked about using a different program but the thought of switching at this point stresses me out a bit! I do love saxon but for a student that seems to be "good at" math it doesn't seem like a good fit at times

 

More information. :-)

 

Let him take the final four tests and be done. When he starts the next book, let him test into that, too; that is, have him take the tests until he gets less than 80% on one, and back up five or so lessons from that (the tests tell you which lessons it covers).

 

I know many people whose children are naturally math-y who do well with Saxon. Perhaps your ds does need to move ahead more quickly.

[jennynd]

Isn't that why you homeschool? So you can go the pace that the kids are capable of? Trust ur instinct.

 

I will also suggest switch to curriculum with less review

[dereksurfs]

I have been considering CLE. Would this be too much like saxon to make the switch?

 

While they are both spiral I have heard CLE has a more gentle spiral than Saxon.  So CLE could be an improvement for him.  If your ds is bright and quick to pick up new concepts Math Mammoth could be better.  It's really hard to say as every child is different.  

 

Instead, this is what I recommend.  Look at the samples both programs offer *with* him.  Have him go through a few pages of each one to better gauge potential fit.  We actually used both CLE and MM together last year.  CLE is a great program which we supplemented with MM for a time for added conceptual development.  Over time we switched to MM because it does go a bit deeper into certain concepts. However, they are both very good and very affordable.  Even if you bought a year of both cost would be pretty low.  Then you could tailor the amount of either to fit his learning style.

[Ellie]

Saxon is not spiral. It is incremental. Different. :-)

[OneStepAtATime]

While they are both spiral I have heard CLE has a more gentle spiral than Saxon.  So CLE could be an improvement for him.  If your ds is bright and quick to pick up new concepts Math Mammoth could be better.  It's really hard to say as every child is different.  

 

Instead, this is what I recommend.  Look at the samples both programs offer *with* him.  Have him go through a few pages of each one to better gauge potential fit.  We actually used both CLE and MM together last year.  CLE is a great program which we supplemented with MM for a time for added conceptual development.  Over time we switched to MM because it does go a bit deeper into certain concepts. However, they are both very good and very affordable.  Even if you bought a year of both cost would be pretty low.  Then you could tailor the amount of either to fit his learning style.

Agreed.  :)

[BusyMom5]

Can you do more than one lesson a day?   Sometimes I do!  If my kid already has said material down pat, we do a few review problems from the problem set (the ones we struggle with), and then teach the next lesson.  I also dn't make my kids do all of the problems.  One does all the word problems aloud, nad 1/2 of the arithmetic problems (if she gets them 100%, which she normally does- 7 per day).  The other one does only the last 20 lessons, which is usually around 15-20 problems per day.  Neither mind it, since I've tweaked it to fit them better.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

I have heard Saxon 65 is an especially boring book.

[Guest ashtuzhed]

I would go along with your friend.

 

[dereksurfs]

Saxon is not spiral. It is incremental. Different. :-)

 

I have heard these terms used somewhat interchangeably.  So in doing a search I found a good description which demonstrates how many use them:

 

"Incremental just describes the *type* of spiraling occurring. It means that not only are you getting a spiraling math, you're getting one that approaches the concepts in tiny bits, tiny increments, tiny pieces. So, ABeka math is spiral. (So is Horizons.) But Saxon is incremental/spiral: it spirals, like ABeka; but does so in tiny bits and pieces. CLE is also an incremental spiral, though different than Saxon's."  -- http://homeschoolreviews.com/forums/1/thread.aspx?id=104773&page=1

 

I think many users of Saxon refer to its incremental nature and constant review as spiral.  The same is true for CLE.   http://www.homeschoolmath.net/curriculum_reviews/saxon.php

[Ellie]

I have heard these terms used somewhat interchangeably.  So in doing a search I found a good description which describes how many use them:

 

"Incremental just describes the *type* of spiraling occurring. It means that not only are you getting a spiraling math, you're getting one that approaches the concepts in tiny bits, tiny increments, tiny pieces. So, ABeka math is spiral. (So is Horizons.) But Saxon is incremental/spiral: it spirals, like ABeka; but does so in tiny bits and pieces. CLE is also an incremental spiral, though different than Saxon's."  -- http://homeschoolreviews.com/forums/1/thread.aspx?id=104773&page=1

 

I think many user of Saxon refer to its incremental nature and constant review as spiral.  The same is true for CLE.  You can see that in many reviews of it.  http://www.homeschoolmath.net/curriculum_reviews/saxon.php

 

Saxon doesn't describe itself as "spiral." And if you understand how Saxon works, you'll understand that it is not spiral at all.

 

In fact, there is such a discrepancy about how people refer to their favorite math's methodology that I continue to consider "mastery" vs "spiral" not to be a consideration, especially not when someone is deciding between a traditional math (ABeka, BJUP, Saxon) and a process math (Miquon, MUS).

 

Yes, I know I'm out standing in my field again, lol, but I am used to it by now.

[dereksurfs]

Saxon doesn't describe itself as "spiral." And if you understand how Saxon works, you'll understand that it is not spiral at all.

 

In fact, there is such a discrepancy about how people refer to their favorite math's methodology that I continue to consider "mastery" vs "spiral" not to be a consideration, especially not when someone is deciding between a traditional math (ABeka, BJUP, Saxon) and a process math (Miquon, MUS).

 

Yes, I know I'm out standing in my field again, lol, but I am used to it by now.

 

That's fine since they are really just terms used to help convey how concepts are taught.  I'm seeing this as somewhat semantics for those who use both types of programs since we know how they differ and are really describing those variations.  There is a huge difference in the way mastery programs such as MUS and Math Mammoth teach concepts as whole parts to mastery when compared to those programs which are more incremental and spiral in nature.  But I'm fine with using any of the terms as long as we honestly convey their obvious and very distinct differences.

[Ellie]

That's fine since they are really just terms used to help convey how concepts are taught.  I'm seeing this as somewhat semantics for those who use both types of programs since we know how they differ and are really describing those variations.  There is a huge difference in the way mastery programs such as MUS and Math Mammoth teach concepts as whole parts to mastery when compared to those programs which are more incremental and spiral in nature.  But I'm fine with using any of the terms as long as we honestly convey their obvious and very distinct differences.

 

Possibly semantics, although a description that lumps incremental with spiral is lacking. But there is also a big difference between materials that are based on manipulatives and materials which are not, and IMHO that's a bigger difference than whether something is "mastery" or "spiral," and IMHO, that's the first thing to consider.

[sweetpea3829]

I bought Horizon's 1 for my daughter a couple of years ago and gosh, I would think that would have been called incremental.  Each day was bits of new information...little bits at a time.  We didn't stick with it for long.  It was too many things at once for DD....she needs a mastery approach with a spiral review.  

[redsquirrel]

Hmm.. well, I don't know if you should 'skip' but I do think you need a math program that is more challenging for him.  I think it is better to find a way to challenge him more where he is than let him race ahead. You might want to check out Beast Academy or Life of Fred...or Beast Academy AND Life of Fred,lol.

 

Kids who are competent at math do still need their foundational work, but they also need to be challenged. A more conceptual program might give him that.

 

And Saxon is terribly repetitious, it drives a lot of kids crazy. For some kids it can feel like busy work

[Ellie]

I bought Horizon's 1 for my daughter a couple of years ago and gosh, I would think that would have been called incremental.  Each day was bits of new information...little bits at a time.  We didn't stick with it for long.  It was too many things at once for DD....she needs a mastery approach with a spiral review.  

 

Saxon's incremental approach (beginning with Math 54; the primary levels are different) doesn't just new information. It adds a little bit on the new concept while continuing to review and develop those previously taught. That development takes place through the whole book, such that there is at least one problem in every lesson set that reviews/develops every concept taught in the whole book. Every concept is mastered by the end of the book.  It doesn't teach a concept then move on to a new one, returning to the previous concept at a later time.

[nknapp5]

Ok I want to make sure I understand these terms. I use saxon...it provides pieces of info each lesson and builds on them throughout the course. That would be the term incremental approach. A friend of mine used MUS which from what I understand they worked on one main concept, lets say fractions, for most the year and this is considered mastery approach. Correct? How would the mastery approach not become boring? If you are working on the same concept over and over?

[kiwik]

Most mastery programmes don't do the same topic all year.

[kiwik]

Most mastery programmes don't do the same topic all year.

[sweetpea3829]

Actually, MUS would be a good example of an incremental mastery approach.  It is VERY incremental.  But it is not spiral.  

[dereksurfs]

Ok I want to make sure I understand these terms. I use saxon...it provides pieces of info each lesson and builds on them throughout the course. That would be the term incremental approach. A friend of mine used MUS which from what I understand they worked on one main concept, lets say fractions, for most the year and this is considered mastery approach. Correct? How would the mastery approach not become boring? If you are working on the same concept over and over?

 

Mastery programs such as Singapore, Math Mammoth and Math-in-Focus cover a good number of topics in one full school year.  For example, here are the highlights of Math Mammoth 6 which our middle dd will be using this Fall:

• review of the basic operations with whole numbers
• beginning algebra topics: expressions, equations, and inequalities
• review of all decimal arithmetic
• introduction to ratios and percent
• prime factorization, GCF, and LCM
• a review of fraction arithmetic from 5th grade, plus a focus on division of fractions
• the concept of integers, coordinate grid, addition & subtraction of integers
• geometry: review of quadrilaterals & drawing problems; area of triangles & polygons; volume of rectangular prisms with fractional edge lengths; surface area
• statistics: concept of distribution, measures of center, measures of variation, boxplots, stem-and-leaf plots, histograms

The Author, Maria Miller, refers to her curriculum as mastery.  Here is a bit more of her description of her curriculum goals:

Some main features of Math Mammoth complete curriculum (Light Blue series) are:

• focuses on understanding of mathematical concepts
• uses clear explanations, lots of visual exercises and pattern exercises
• mastery oriented: concentrates fairly long on a topic, with fairly few topics per grade
• emphasizes mental math and developing number sense
• very little teacher preparation needed

There are a few key things here to notice:

1.  Focus on conceptual development rather than more procedural approaches (e.g. plug and chug).  That is an area where some programs are definitely weaker.

2.  Mastery with review built-in.  It does focus longer on topics than incremental programs like Saxon or CLE.  Some children thrive more with this kind of approach.  While others do better with more incremental, smaller bits at a time, then going back to work on those same topics later adding more smaller bits.  Hence, you have fans for both.  Nothing wrong with that.  Sometimes you will have children in the *same* family who do better with one over the other.  That is where it is good to try to be flexible, even though somewhat harder to do.  While adults normally struggle more with variation and change children do better with it when something fits their learning style more.  

3.  Emphasis on mental math has been a really good thing.

4.  Written toward the student like CLE, MUS and I think Saxon.  So it can be done in a fairly independent fashion.  Teaching it is fairly straight forward as opposed to other more complicated, teacher intensive programs.