Is it ever profitable to say something in this situation?

[AndyJoy]

We were at a restaurant with a kids' play area today. Right as i walked in I witnessed a grandmother (I thought mother at the time) smack her 4 or 5-year-old grandson in the face. What happened was his older brother (6ish) told her he asked to see another boy's privates while they were up on the play area (and the kid did it). After she yelled and threatened and smacked him she calmed down, then later talked more calmly and discovered what actually happened was the other boy, who was about 7, asked the younger boy if he wanted to see, and when the younger boy answered "yes" he then exposed himself.

 

She told the mom of the older boy what happened and he confirmed it (while saying "It wasn't ALL my fault--he said yes!" The grandmother looked a bit sheepish after finding out the truth, but didn't apologize to the little boy. When he said, "See! It wasn't my fault!" she said, "That's right. But you shouldn't say 'yes'" in a gentle voice.

 

Later grandmother (Late 40s or early 50s I would guess) was hovering and micromanaging the two boys and 3-year-old girl, probably in reaction to the earlier incident. She was hyper-concerned about them taking turns on the various equipment. When the younger boy tried to "cut" in line, she pinched his neck to move him to the back of the line. She also pinched the arm of the 3-year-old for trying to get up to play rather than eating.

 

I really wanted to say something to her, but I was worried she'd mistreat them worse if that is her norm in public for very typical kid behavior. My heart hurts for those kids. I didn't think it was severe enough that calling the police would be useful, but what to you think? In your experience, would they follow up on a smack to the face? It wasn't a full up slap--she was holding his arm and had his face up by hers and smacked him from a few inches away when she didn't believe his answer. There were several others there, and we all stared and glared, but no one spoke up. Would you? Have you?

 

I snapped a pic of her and learned the boy's first name, but was unable to get their license plate.

[*Alyssa*]

We were at a restaurant with a kids' play area today. Right as i walked in I witnessed a grandmother (I thought mother at the time) smack her 4 or 5-year-old grandson in the face. What happened was his older brother (6ish) told her he asked to see another boy's privates while they were up on the play area (and the kid did it). After she yelled and threatened and smacked him she calmed down, then later talked more calmly and discovered what actually happened was the other boy, who was about 7, asked the younger boy if he wanted to see, and when the younger boy answered "yes" he then exposed himself.

 

She told the mom of the older boy what happened and he confirmed it (while saying "It wasn't ALL my fault--he said yes!" The grandmother looked a bit sheepish after finding out the truth, but didn't apologize to the little boy. When he said, "See! It wasn't my fault!" she said, "That's right. But you shouldn't say 'yes'" in a gentle voice.

 

Later grandmother (Late 40s or early 50s I would guess) was hovering and micromanaging the two boys and 3-year-old girl, probably in reaction to the earlier incident. She was hyper-concerned about them taking turns on the various equipment. When the younger boy tried to "cut" in line, she pinched his neck to move him to the back of the line. She also pinched the arm of the 3-year-old for trying to get up to play rather than eating.

 

I really wanted to say something to her, but I was worried she'd mistreat them worse if that is her norm in public for very typical kid behavior. My heart hurts for those kids. I didn't think it was severe enough that calling the police would be useful, but what to you think? In your experience, would they follow up on a smack to the face? It wasn't a full up slap--she was holding his arm and had his face up by hers and smacked him from a few inches away when she didn't believe his answer. There were several others there, and we all stared and glared, but no one spoke up. Would you? Have you?

 

I snapped a pic of her and learned the boy's first name, but was unable to get their license plate.

(I do not apologize for what I'm about to say.  This sort of mentality hurt me greatly as a child and it makes me downright angry when I see it, because I lost loved ones as a result.)

 

Unless you are willing to testify in a court of law, what you did was childish.  If Grandma was breaking the law, call the police right then and there.  If that child was in immediate danger, you should have done something!  Instead, you snapped a picture, listened in a conversation that wasn't yours, and attempted to get her license plate number to snitch on her like a school girl without any consequences, because you could do it anonymously. 

 

Good gracious, if the child is in danger, then you did something very bad by allowing that child to be in more danger.  However, I suspect you only have a moral ground of sand that means you instinctively know the situation was not a danger to the child, but you have a strong opinion against that sort of discipline and wanted the Grandma to know about it.  You stayed silent, because even you knew this did not warrant a police investigation.

 

 

[Slache]

The only reason I knew that child abuse was wrong growing up was because strangers spoke up when it happened in front of them. The way strangers would speak to my mom and respect me really changed the way I saw the world. I guess I was less scared and more hopeful. Given the opportunity I would have said something.

[*Alyssa*]

The only reason I knew that child abuse was wrong growing up was because strangers spoke up when it happened in front of them. The way strangers would speak to my mom and respect me really changed the way I saw the world. I guess I was less scared and more hopeful. Given the opportunity I would have said something.

 

I might have said something, too, if I felt it truly warranted it, but I wouldn't have thought it warranted needing to involve authorities.  Grandma is probably a product of her upbringing, but I know Italian grandmothers who sometimes still do that to their adult children and it's understood, you respect Grandma.  Grandma isn't abusing them, but in their culture, you learn to respect elders and they do it like that, rather than with words.  I think some people misunderstand that sort of thing if they don't grow up with that.

 

I think we all will know when something is abuse versus when it is a simple act of discipline we might disagree with.  I wouldn't do what that grandma did, but it didn't make what she did wrong either.

 

[Slache]

I might have said something, too, if I felt it truly warranted it, but I wouldn't have thought it warranted needing to involve authorities. Grandma is probably a product of her upbringing, but I know Italian grandmothers who sometimes still do that to their adult children and it's understood, you respect Grandma. Grandma isn't abusing them, but in their culture, you learn to respect elders and they do it like that, rather than with words. I think some people misunderstand that sort of thing if they don't grow up with that.

 

I think we all will know when something is abuse versus when it is a simple act of discipline we might disagree with. I wouldn't do what that grandma did, but it didn't make what she did wrong either.

 

But it sounds like this woman was venting her frustrations on these kids, not correcting behavior.

[AndyJoy]

(I do not apologize for what I'm about to say. This sort of mentality hurt me greatly as a child and it makes me downright angry when I see it, because I lost loved ones as a result.)

 

Unless you are willing to testify in a court of law, what you did was childish. If Grandma was breaking the law, call the police right then and there. If that child was in immediate danger, you should have done something! Instead, you snapped a picture, listened in a conversation that wasn't yours, and attempted to get her license plate number to snitch on her like a school girl without any consequences, because you could do it anonymously.

 

Good gracious, if the child is in danger, then you did something very bad by allowing that child to be in more danger. However, I suspect you only have a moral ground of sand that means you instinctively know the situation was not a danger to the child, but you have a strong opinion against that sort of discipline and wanted the Grandma to know about it. You stayed silent, because even you knew this did not warrant a police investigation.

 

 

I am/would be willing to testify in a court of law. I got documentation in case it went any further so I would have info for the police if I needed to call. I did not call because I do not know the law explicitly about whether it is illegal to smack a kid like that; I do know I would call the police if a stranger did that to me, but sadly this seems to be "OK" for a caregiver.

 

The "listening in" was done from 20 feet away in a loud room. The conversation was evident to everyone.

 

Yes, I do have a strong opinion against smacking and pinching small kids in one's care.

 

I was hoping I might be able to learn enough info to at least alert the mom, so in case she wasn't aware of grandma's tactics she'd be informed. My kids are never left with a certain relative because of similar actions.

 

So what would you have me do? Completely ignore? If you think it's not abuse (so no police) and just me on my high horse about "that sort of discipline" do you think no action, whether words to the grandma or "snitching" to mom is warranted?

[Eagle]

I wouldn't do what that grandma did, but it didn't make what she did wrong either.

 

It was wrong. Slapping a child in the face is WRONG. There is no excuse by way of someone's culture or upbringing. Wrong is wrong.

[AndyJoy]

The only reason I knew that child abuse was wrong growing up was because strangers spoke up when it happened in front of them. The way strangers would speak to my mom and respect me really changed the way I saw the world. I guess I was less scared and more hopeful. Given the opportunity I would have said something.

I'm sorry for your childhood :(. I've heard from other abuse survivors that they were punished worse at home when strangers spoke up because the parent was embarrassed and took it out on them. I fear hurting a kid in this way but I would love to be able to help them see the world differently like you were able to.

 

As a teen I had ongoing relationships with three young boys with crummy home lives. Nothing reportable as abuse, but just messed up family culture. I had enough contact with them to be able to open their eyes to other ways of doing things and was even able to explicitly tell them some things about how they might live differently. It's just hard to know with a stranger and a one time interaction if it is better for the kid to remain silent.

 

My mother had a messed up and abusive childhood but was able to overcome it mostly due to a friend's family providing an escape and showing her how healthy families operate.

[AndyJoy]

As someone who regularly got slapped in the face as a child, yes. It's wrong. If Grandma was slapping anyone else in the face, it would be assault. Having a blood relationship doesn't change that.

 

I would have been direct in my concern to Grandma. "Hey, is he OK ? You can't slap him in the face like that."

 

Probably wouldn't achieve much except to let child, Grandma and everyone else in the park know that slapping kids in the face is not on.

That was my first instinct, but I hesitated as I was juggling a toddler and a tray and had just walked in on the situation. I'm generally a very outspoken person and I'm trying to determine if I should listen to these first impulses. As a kid or teen I never hesitated to confront the peer who was like this, but it seems so much more complicated as an adult that I take less impulsive action. That can be a good or bad thing--I'm looking for some clarity for next time.

[SKL]

Nope, I would not have done anything other than look over there with a concerned look.  Maybe said something like "oh my" so the granny would realize that her behavior was not the norm nowadays.

 

Sounds like she acted impulsively due to being a bit shocked and very concerned about the underlying behavior.

 

It does not sound remotely like abuse, nor would reporting it help those kids in any way.

 

IMO it would be better if parents did such things matter-of-factly out in the open, vs. behind closed doors.  Spanking is still legal in most places and is still practiced by most parents.  Like it or not.  The kids who are hurt worst are the ones whose parents hide the deed.  Don't drive the grannies undercover.

[Slache]

I'm sorry for your childhood :(. I've heard from other abuse survivors that they were punished worse at home when strangers spoke up because the parent was embarrassed and took it out on them. I fear hurting a kid in this way but I would love to be able to help them see the world differently like you were able to.

 

As a teen I had ongoing relationships with three young boys with crummy home lives. Nothing reportable as abuse, but just messed up family culture. I had enough contact with them to be able to open their eyes to other ways of doing things and was even able to explicitly tell them some things about how they might live differently. It's just hard to know with a stranger and a one time interaction if it is better for the kid to remain silent.

 

My mother had a messed up and abusive childhood but was able to overcome it mostly due to a friend's family providing an escape and showing her how healthy families operate.

Yes, but the emotional healing caused by the love of a person was worth it in my opinion. I'm sorry that you had to go through this today, and because of you and this post maybe we'll all be a little more prepared should we witness something like that.

[AndyJoy]

I might have said something, too, if I felt it truly warranted it, but I wouldn't have thought it warranted needing to involve authorities. Grandma is probably a product of her upbringing, but I know Italian grandmothers who sometimes still do that to their adult children and it's understood, you respect Grandma. Grandma isn't abusing them, but in their culture, you learn to respect elders and they do it like that, rather than with words. I think some people misunderstand that sort of thing if they don't grow up with that.

 

I think we all will know when something is abuse versus when it is a simple act of discipline we might disagree with. I wouldn't do what that grandma did, but it didn't make what she did wrong either.

 

1. Grandma was not Italian.

2. Italian grandmas don't get a pass in my book.

3. I fail to see how a 4 or 5-year-old verbally, truthfully, defending himself against accusations that he told a boy to expose himself is a lack of any kind of healthy "respect". Grandma ASKED if he did it, he (truthfully) denied it, and she accused him of lying and smacked him. He was not fighting her or hitting her or saying anything other than "I didn't tell him that!"

4. I am so thankful I did not grow up with that. The potential was there. My mom did grow up with that and resolved to NEVER smack us in the face. She kept that promise; we were spanked in a calm manner with a discussion, but never smacked in the face or in heat-of-the-moment anger or embarrassment.

[AndyJoy]

Yes, but the emotional healing caused by the love of a person was worth it in my opinion. I'm sorry that you had to go through this today, and because of you and this post maybe we'll all be a little more prepared should we witness something like that.

So good (in a horribly sad way) to hear this. I'm glad the outcome was worth it to you and I will try to be that person who speaks up so the kid will know it's messed up from an outside observer.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't do the stare and glare. It just makes people feel cornered and judged, which (IMO) is more likely to put the child at risk once they get out to the car or home.

 

If I can't intervene in a way that is likely to be genuinely beneficial, especially toward calming the adult in the moment, I stay out of it. I usually judge that by whether the person seems like a habitual child abuser or "just" at the end of her tether temporarily. The first are above my pay grade. The second I can often help with quiet sympathy, humor, whatever.

 

When I was young I waded into everything all the time. Now that I'm older, and likely to have children or elderly relatives with me, I ask myself whether my intervention will...

 

a. do any good, and

b. likely result in the person turning on me (not unheard of)

 

If I'm probably not helping and might even be escalating their rage, and/or putting the people with me at risk of a brawl, I stay out of it.

 

I think if we all worked a LOT harder at changing the world just by modeling and teaching within our own spheres of influence, the net result would be huge. So much more effective than shaming people in public. What if we really talked about it, especially if we are in church or homeschool groups where striking children is somewhat accepted? What if we talked about it within our extended families? What if we got on board with the concept of children's rights, and taught younger women how to love their children (biblical concept, there), and worked a lot harder toward women's issues....

 

the stare and glare is the least we can do, as well the most cowardly and self-preserving thing we can do. I'm not a fan.

[*Alyssa*]

I am/would be willing to testify in a court of law. I got documentation in case it went any further so I would have info for the police if I needed to call. I did not call because I do not know the law explicitly about whether it is illegal to smack a kid like that; I do know I would call the police if a stranger did that to me, but sadly this seems to be "OK" for a caregiver.

 

The "listening in" was done from 20 feet away in a loud room. The conversation was evident to everyone.

 

Yes, I do have a strong opinion against smacking and pinching small kids in one's care.

 

I was hoping I might be able to learn enough info to at least alert the mom, so in case she wasn't aware of grandma's tactics she'd be informed. My kids are never left with a certain relative because of similar actions.

 

So what would you have me do? Completely ignore? If you think it's not abuse (so no police) and just me on my high horse about "that sort of discipline" do you think no action, whether words to the grandma or "snitching" to mom is warranted?

 

You don't know the law, so that's why you didn't call?  So it never occurred to you to call the police to find out?  :huh:

 

What would I have you do?  If I was there to see the situation play out, I would have an opinion, but I wasn't there to witness any of it.  I only have your side of the story.  I don't give blanket advice for a situation as ambiguous as that where even a small detail that is even slightly fabricated could change my entire opinion. 

 

It would be really interesting to hear Grandma's side of the story, but seeing how no one here has that, it's rather foolish to even be discussing this.

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I need to amend my above answer - thought I included this but I didn't --

 

The above is about a one-time incident that has just happened. One brief angry, hateful speech toward the child, a slap, a spank, and then the adult moves on as if all is normal. :( That's when I judge whether I should do anything and usually decide not to. That's the picture I got from the OP's situation.

 

A situation where the abuse is ongoing -- she's standing there spanking or slapping him, or yelling profanity at him, something like that, I call for the store manager and might make my own scene just to disrupt the moment until the manager arrives. That's Humanity 101 to me, to not just sit and gawp while somebody is being abused right in front of me.

[AndyJoy]

I don't do the stare and glare. It just makes people feel cornered and judged, which (IMO) is more likely to put the child at risk once they get out to the car or home.

 

If I can't intervene in a way that is likely to be genuinely beneficial, especially toward calming the adult in the moment, I stay out of it. I usually judge that by whether the person seems like a habitual child abuser or "just" at the end of her tether temporarily. The first are above my pay grade. The second I can often help with quiet sympathy, humor, whatever.

 

When I was young I waded into everything all the time. Now that I'm older, and likely to have children or elderly relatives with me, I ask myself whether my intervention will...

 

a. do any good, and

b. likely result in the person turning on me (not unheard of)

 

If I'm probably not helping and might even be escalating their rage, and/or putting the people with me at risk of a brawl, I stay out of it.

 

I think if we all worked a LOT harder at changing the world just by modeling and teaching within our own spheres of influence, the net result would be huge. So much more effective than shaming people in public. What if we really talked about it, especially if we are in church or homeschool groups where striking children is somewhat accepted? What if we talked about it within our extended families? What if we got on board with the concept of children's rights, and taught younger women how to love their children (biblical concept, there), and worked a lot harder toward women's issues....

 

the stare and glare is the least we can do, as well the most cowardly and self-preserving thing we can do. I'm not a fan.

Is look away and pretend it didn't happen not worse? I think stare and glare communicated to the grandma, but not the kid, that it was wrong.

 

I also had my own small kids with me, which is part of what gave me pause about saying something immediately. My toddler was in my arms and my mind leapt to her and what might happen if angry grandma decided to hit me.

 

I DO work hard at changing culture, talking with family and groups, teaching younger moms, etc. But does that mean I have to just give up on the kids living it now?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Is look away and pretend it didn't happen not worse? I think stare and glare communicated to the grandma, but not the kid, that it was wrong.

 

I also had my own small kids with me, which is part of what gave me pause about saying something immediately. My toddler was in my arms and my mind leapt to her and what might happen if angry grandma decided to hit me.

 

I DO work hard at changing culture, talking with family and groups, teaching younger moms, etc. But does that mean I have to just give up on the kids living it now?

 

I think you either MYOB or you quietly intervene. There's no in-between.

 

In-between just says, "I'm judging you but don't expect me to tell you why, or what I think you should be doing differently. I'm judging you as being wrong, but not enough to be an emergency that I'm compelled to stop. You'll have to figure out what portion of this incident I'm judging anyway, whether it's you or the child or just the fact that your noise has interrupted my dinner or maybe I just don't like how you're dressed. You'll never know any of this but I just wanted you to know I'm judging you."

[SKL]

If I thought it was illegal child abuse, I would call the cops right then and there.

 

But I don't think this was.  The OP was specific about the slap coming from a few inches away, not a "full on slap."  That is not a reason to disrupt a child's living situation.

 

We don't know a lot of things about this situation, such as why granny had three young grandkids at a chaotic establishment in the first place.  Maybe the kids' mom was in the hospital or something.  Maybe she was extremely stressed out. 

 

People make mistakes.  This IMO was not a big one.

[AndyJoy]

You don't know the law, so that's why you didn't call? So it never occurred to you to call the police to find out? :huh:

 

What would I have you do? If I was there to see the situation play out, I would have an opinion, but I wasn't there to witness any of it. I only have your side of the story. I don't give blanket advice for a situation as ambiguous as that where even a small detail that is even slightly fabricated could change my entire opinion.

 

It would be really interesting to hear Grandma's side of the story, but seeing how no one here has that, it's rather foolish to even be discussing this.

 

 

My husband and I have called the police several times for things we thought were worthy and been blown off. Sadly it makes me hesitate a bit now, to be demeaned and called stupid for caring (by the police). Had it escalated, I would have called 911. I plan to follow up by calling the non-emergency number or going into my local station and asking about it.

 

And yet, here you are discussing it and defending a woman who hit a child in the face.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My husband and I have called the police several times for things we thought were worthy and been blown off. Sadly it makes me hesitate a bit now, to be demeaned and called stupid for caring. Had it escalated, I would have called 911. I plan to follow up by calling the non-emergency number or going into my local station and asking about it.

 

And yet, here you are discussing it and defending a woman who hit a child in the face.

 

The reason why it avails you nothing to take her picture, write down her license plate number, and get the little boy's name for your follow up call to the police department is the same reason why we don't always call CPS on neglectful homeschoolers (remember the "no school in two years" thread recently).

 

Not because the adult in charge is a good caregiver or that the child is entirely safe, happy, provided for, nurtured, etc. as he should be. Not because we don't think it's wrong.

 

The reason why is because the authorities have their hands full with even worse situations. We don't have a "be nicer to your child" squad in our local law enforcement.

 

If you went to the police over this incident they would not do anything. They might even be on Grandma's side because she is there, actively guiding the children through their afternoon, intervening when something goes wrong, backing off on the punishment when she realizes her mistake, etc. and will be putting them into a vehicle and driving them home. She fed them, watched them, disciplined them. That's how they would see it.

 

Would I have approved of her methods? Absolutely not. I NEVER approve or excuse slapping a child's face or calling him a liar. (The law enforcement people likely treat their kids better, too.) But do I think this will raise the same alert level as a Grandma who is "babysitting" while carrying out a prostitution or drug business in the home during the child's waking hours and forgetting to feed him or change his diaper? Or what about the caregiver who drops their very little kid off at the playground or town center and drives off to do their own thing? No. And I know the police, and CPS, are short-staffed to deal with the real problems.

 

If I'm the police and I hear this story, my first concern is not the face slapping Grandma but the child who did expose himself. THAT child needs immediate help.

[AndyJoy]

Yeah, she slapped him in the face one time, verbally threatened him one time, later on pinched him one time. Is two slaps, two threats, two pinches the magic number ? Or does it have to be ten, or a hundred, or over weeks and months and years ?

 

I am obviously too emotional to engage in this thread further. All I will say Andy Joy, is thank God for people who think like you.

Thank you, Sadie. *Many hugs* I hope I can be helpful next time.

[SKL]

Right, because expressing disgust and intimidation is the best way to motivate grannies to be sweet to their grandkids.

 

If you really want to show love, show love to the whole group.  Smile and speak gently to the granny and say something understanding like, "this is a pretty chaotic and stressful place, isn't it?  Would it help you if I looked out for your littlest for a while?"

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yeah, she slapped him in the face one time, verbally threatened him one time, later on pinched him one time. Is two slaps, two threats, two pinches the magic number ? Or does it have to be ten, or a hundred, or over weeks and months and years ?

 

I am obviously too emotional to engage in this thread further. All I will say Andy Joy, is thank God for people who think like you. 

 

I think you are too emotional to engage in the thread further.

 

You're talking to an attachment parent who didn't spank or slap her own children and who has done an awful lot, online and IRL, over the past 20 years to change the culture among hs'ers and churchgoers. I'm not some person who thinks harshness toward children is fine.

 

I'm trying to answer the question about whether or not it's ever profitable to say something in this situation. If the OP wanted JAWM she could have said so. My answer is that it's often profitable to say something, although you have to know when (or whether) and have some wisdom about you, but to just glare at the person waiting for them to read your mind is not profitable.

 

[*Alyssa*]

So good (in a horribly sad way) to hear this. I'm glad the outcome was worth it to you and I will try to be that person who speaks up so the kid will know it's messed up from an outside observer.

 

What if you're that person who "speaks" up where you don't belong and ruins someone's life?  I'm sorry, but my life was completely ruined as a child because of someone like you sticking their nose where it doesn't belong and fabricating the story into something it wasn't.  Let me rest assure you, my time in foster jail was a million times worse than anything that could have ever happened to me at home.  :mad:  

 

No one likes to talk about that, because we only want to hear about how wonderful foster care is and how it saves the children.  People like me are told to shut up and don't sue the state (if you can even find a brave enough lawyer to do it), or else find your family in danger.

 

Do I have your sympathy now?  Of course not, because it reveals your bias to only want to hear what makes you feel good and righteous for what you think.  Darwin forbid if someone disagrees with you and defend kids who are abused by the very system that claims to protect them.

 

I'm not defending Grandma.  I wasn't there to see the other side of the story.  I'd be the last person to defend a true abuser.  I replied solely to how you responded to said situation you claim to be true from your point-of-view.  Instead of going to the police to find out if that situation warranted their involvement, you came to an internet board to find out.  I'm not impressed.

[AndyJoy]

The reason why it avails you nothing to take her picture, write down her license plate number, and get the little boy's name for your follow up call to the police department is the same reason why we don't always call CPS on neglectful homeschoolers (remember the "no school in two years" thread recently).

 

Not because the adult in charge is a good caregiver or that the child is entirely safe, happy, provided for, nurtured, etc. as he should be. Not because we don't think it's wrong.

 

The reason why is because the authorities have their hands full with even worse situations. We don't have a "be nicer to your child" squad in our local law enforcement.

 

If you went to the police over this incident they would not do anything. They might even be on Grandma's side because she is there, actively guiding the children through their afternoon, intervening when something goes wrong, backing off on the punishment when she realizes her mistake, etc. and will be putting them into a vehicle and driving them home. She fed them, watched them, disciplined them. That's how they would see it.

 

Would I have approved of her methods? Absolutely not. I NEVER approve or excuse slapping a child's face or calling him a liar. (The law enforcement people likely treat their kids better, too.) But do I think this measures up to a Grandma who is "babysitting" while carrying out a prostitution or drug business in the home during the child's waking hours and forgetting to feed him or change his diaper? Or what about the caregiver who drops their very little kid off at the playground or town center and drives off to do their own thing? No. And I know the police, and CPS, are short-staffed to deal with the real problems.

 

If I'm the police and I hear this story, my first concern is not the face slapping Grandma but the child who did expose himself. THAT child needs immediate help.

But everyone has a different standard for what they think merits a call. Don't they have people answering the phone to help determine this?

 

My husband has been stopped by police for letting my son splash in a gutter while they went out for a walk together. Another time for pushing him in a stroller out on a country road. A homeschooling friend recently got a visit because her 6-year-old peed in a bush in their yard. The school counselor from the PS across the street came over and got his name and age, heard from him that his mom was inside, then went back to school and called the police. No knock on the door to say "hey, I thought you might want to know.". All of these seem like a much worse waste of police time. Isn't a call about hitting and pinching a child more worthy of their attention? Where do we draw a line between determining for ourselves what warrants further investigation and letting the police decide this?

[*Alyssa*]

There isn't an easy answer to any of this, because sometimes it's d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't.  Sometimes it is hard to know what to do.  I will give you that, AndyJoy.

I'm sorry for being hard on you.  I just don't want people to be thoughtless about helping children that they inadvertently hurt them instead.  My life was truly ruined as a result and I cannot stress that enough what it did to me as a child.  Does my story not matter?

I'm sorry for my tone.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

But everyone has a different standard for what they think merits a call. Don't they have people answering the phone to help determine this?

 

My husband has been stopped by police for letting my son splash in a gutter while they went out for a walk together. Another time for pushing him in a stroller out on a country road. A homeschooling friend recently got a visit because her 6-year-old peed in a bush in their yard. The school counselor from the PS across the street came over and got his name and age, heard from him that his mom was inside, then went back to school and called the police. No knock on the door to say "hey, I thought you might want to know.". All of these seem like a much worse waste of police time. Isn't a call about hitting and pinching a child more worthy of their attention? Where do we draw a line between determining for ourselves what warrants further investigation and letting the police decide this?

I never said you or anyone would be wasting police time by reporting. Nothing of the kind. I said, in answer to your comment about feeling demeaned and belittled by the police when you reported this level of problem, that the reason they treat you thus is because this level of problem is not on their radar.

[AndyJoy]

What if you're that person who "speaks" up where you don't belong and ruins someone's life? I'm sorry, but my life was completely ruined as a child because of someone like you sticking their nose where it doesn't belong and fabricating the story into something it wasn't. Let me rest assure you, my time in foster jail was a million times worse than anything that could have ever happened to me at home. :mad:

 

No one like to talk about that, because we only want to hear about how wonderful foster care is and how it saves the children. People like me are told to shut up and don't sue the state (if you can even find a brave enough lawyer to do it), or else find your family in danger.

 

Do I have your sympathy now? Of course not, because it reveals your bias to only want to hear what makes you feel good and righteous for what you think. Darwin forbid if someone disagree with you and defend kids who are abused by the very system that claims to protect them.

 

I'm not defending Grandma. I wasn't there to see the other side of the story. I'd be the last person to defend a true abuser. I replied solely to how you responded to said situation you claim to be true from your point-of-view. Instead of going to the police to find out if that situation warranted their involvement, you came to an internet board to find out. I'm not impressed.

You do have my sympathy, and have all along. You and Slache's differing views is what makes this so difficult for an outsider. You both had crummy adults in your lives, but you have different perspectives on a proper response from outsiders. I have to try to wade through the opinions of many to come up with a personal response; or, I could ignore everyone else and do whatever I feel in the moment. I have a more logical, dissect-and-reason-it-out personality and try not to be too reactive so I came here to solicit input. I'm not trying to impress you or anyone else with my actions/lack of action/followup. Trust me I'm twisted inside over it, but I would probably have been posting here asking if I'd done the right thing if I HAD said something.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm thanking God I live in a place where the police are not concerned with children splashing in puddles or being pushed in strollers out in the country. Can't even imagine.

[MFG]

Honestly. Can no one MTOB anymore?

ETA: I was commenting on Tibbie's post above.

[AndyJoy]

There isn't an easy answer to any of this, because sometimes it's d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't. Sometimes it is hard to know what to do. I will give you that, AndyJoy.

 

I'm sorry for being hard on you. I just don't want people to be thoughtless about helping children that they inadvertently hurt them instead. My life was truly ruined as a result and I cannot stress that enough what it did to me as a child. Does my story not matter?

 

I'm sorry for my tone. I'm truly sorry.

I'm so sorry about your childhood and I know that must make this situation so much more personal for you. Your harshness obviously come from the horrible hurtfulness of your story. Im so sorry and wish i could give you a hug.

 

I thought I was making it clear that this is exactly why I posted here; I struggled with saying anything because I didn't want to make it harder on the kid or overreact, but ignoring what I believe is wrong can be bad too. I suspect it is impossible to know when you're talking about a stranger, but should one always err on the side of staying out of it? Not all adults who were raised this way agree. So here I am an outsider trying to hear ALL your stories and make sense of it.

[AndyJoy]

I never said you or anyone would be wasting police time by reporting. Nothing of the kind. I said, in answer to your comment about feeling demeaned and belittled by the police when you reported this level of problem, that the reason they treat you thus is because this level of problem is not on their radar.

The problems we reported before were:

 

1. Preteens smoking pot at the playground

2. Teens spinning donuts in a truck!!! in the middle of the playground where small kids were playing.

 

These were in the town where he was stopped with my son.

 

You'll note I did not call the police over the smacking incident. I came here asking if others would have done the same. I got your opinion.

[AndyJoy]

I'm thanking God I live in a place where the police are not concerned with children splashing in puddles or being pushed in strollers out in the country. Can't even imagine.

Yeah, pretty crazy. They tried to tell him the puddles were unsafe because it was on a 35 mph road. There was a 5-ft-wide bike lane and no side streets to turn in. DH was literally right next to 4-year-old DS.

 

When they were walking with the stroller, two different officers stopped him to question what he was doing. It was broad daylight and he was going for a several-mile-walk with his 2 1/2 year-old. When they questioned him about whether DS was his kid DS pointed and said "Daddy" so the officer moved on. I have no idea what the concern was. Kidnapping at 3 mph? Abandoning him in the desert? It wasn't like they asked if they were OK and needed water or a ride.

[*Alyssa*]

Is there a side of the story that excuses Grandma hitting her grandson in the face ?

 

Why doesn't it surprise me that on WTM, someone thinks there might be.

Neither am I surprised to find people on here who are more than willing to throw someone under the bus for something they didn't witness and only "heard" about from a random poster on the internet.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Assault is assault.

The victims age doesn't matter.

The perpetrators upbringing doesn't matter.

Assault is assault.

[AndyJoy]

Neither am I surprised to find people on here who are more than willing to throw someone under the bus for something they didn't witness and only "heard" about from a random poster on the internet.

I don't see anyone throwing grandma under the bus. No one has advocated calling the police based on what I witnessed. They do, however, all agree that smacking a child in the face is wrong. Even if I "made up" details and the kid did something horribly rotten I think they'd still agree. What if I posted that the mom of the 7-year-old instigator was the one who hit her kid? (she talked to him quietly in a corner then screamed and told him not to get up in her face disrespectfully). I think we'd still agree she shouldn't have hit him. What we're all saying is that whatever the back story or grandma's side (if you don't believe my account), it shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry if that was normal in your family; I think it sucks. But this is a separate issue from whether it warrants kids being taken away.

[texasmama]

Once, in public, I told a girl that her mother's slaps, grabs, and abusive language were not her fault (out of mom's earshot).  I then reported her to CPS.  I am a mandatory reporter, and what I saw was more than a spank on the butt (not illegal here) but less than "call the cops right now!".  

[AndyJoy]

Once, in public, I told a girl that her mother's slaps, grabs, and abusive language were not her fault (out of mom's earshot). I then reported her to CPS. I am a mandatory reporter, and what I saw was more than a spank on the butt (not illegal here) but less than "call the cops right now!".

Yes, there is an in-between, isn't there! The fact that I didn't know her and couldn't get enough identifying info is part of what made me second guess calling immediately.

[*Alyssa*]

I'm so sorry about your childhood and I know that must make this situation so much more personal for you. Your harshness obviously come from the horrible hurtfulness of your story. Im so sorry and wish i could give you a hug.

 

I thought I was making it clear that this is exactly why I posted here; I struggled with saying anything because I didn't want to make it harder on the kid or overreact, but ignoring what I believe is wrong can be bad too. I suspect it is impossible to know when you're talking about a stranger, but should one always err on the side of staying out of it? Not all adults who were raised this way agree. So here I am an outsider trying to hear ALL your stories and make sense of it.

Here's the deal.  When family courts treat the accused the same way any other court does with a right to a trial by jury, then I will say to call police until your heart is content.  Until then, I will never throw someone in that courtroom unless I truly believe they should be there.  Every person should have the right to a trial by jury and this is the rare exception in family court.  That is wrong.

[*Alyssa*]

I don't see anyone throwing grandma under the bus. No one has advocated calling the police based on what I witnessed. They do, however, all agree that smacking a child in the face is wrong. Even if I "made up" details and the kid did something horribly rotten I think they'd still agree. What if I posted that the mom of the 7-year-old instigator was the one who hit her kid? (she talked to him quietly in a corner then screamed and told him not to get up in her face disrespectfully). I think we'd still agree she shouldn't have hit him. What we're all saying is that whatever the back story or grandma's side (if you don't believe my account), it shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry if that was normal in your family; I think it sucks. But this is a separate issue from whether it warrants kids being taken away.

 

Where on earth did I ever say anything about that happening in my family?  Do you see why I don't trust your testimony?  You made up something about my family when I said absolutely nothing of the sort.  You read something into my story that simply wasn't there!  People reading that would have believed you if I didn't come to defend myself.

 

The more you talk, the less I believe your story to be accurate, because if you added that to my story, what have you done to grandma's story?

[Artichoke]

The problems we reported before were:

 

1. Preteens smoking pot at the playground

2. Teens spinning donuts in a truck!!! in the middle of the playground where small kids were playing.

 

These were in the town where he was stopped with my son.

 

You'll note I did not call the police over the smacking incident. I came here asking if others would have done the same. I got your opinion.

Are these the instances you're referring to in post 25 ( multi quote still isn't working for me ) when the police called you stupid for caring and demeaned you? If that's the case, I'd certainly be lodging a complaint against those officers. I'm not questioning your story, it just makes sense to me to lodge a complaint in those circumstances.

[*Alyssa*]

1. Grandma was not Italian.

2. Italian grandmas don't get a pass in my book.

3. I fail to see how a 4 or 5-year-old verbally, truthfully, defending himself against accusations that he told a boy to expose himself is a lack of any kind of healthy "respect". Grandma ASKED if he did it, he (truthfully) denied it, and she accused him of lying and smacked him. He was not fighting her or hitting her or saying anything other than "I didn't tell him that!"

4. I am so thankful I did not grow up with that. The potential was there. My mom did grow up with that and resolved to NEVER smack us in the face. She kept that promise; we were spanked in a calm manner with a discussion, but never smacked in the face or in heat-of-the-moment anger or embarrassment.

 

I missed this post earlier.

 

I gave an example and you come back to say the grandma in your story is not Italian.  :huh:   Would you also propose I was also saying every Italian grandmother does this?

 

Your mother did not smack you in the face, but she spanked you in a "calm manner".  With all due respect, there are people in this world who think your mother abused you and should be in prison, preferably hung without a trial by jury. 

 

You are proving my point that you have to tread with caution with these things and be slow to say something is abuse when the situation is not black/white.

[AndyJoy]

 

Where on earth did I ever say anything about that happening in my family? Do you see why I don't trust your testimony? You made up something about my family when I said absolutely nothing of the sort. You read something into my story that simply wasn't there! People reading that would have believed you if I didn't come to defend myself.

 

The more you talk, the less I believe your story to be accurate, because if you added that to my story, what have you done to grandma's story?

I said I'm sorry if; that's the main reason I can think of why someone would think it was OK to hit kids like that. You only hinted at your story, which made it sound like someone reported your caregivers for something that you see as similarly minor. I don't know your story. I fail to see how this makes me less trustworthy. And if you ask around I'm not some new poster who sets off the "too strange to be true" radar.

[*Alyssa*]

Accidentally sent that post when I wasn't finished, but I'm too tired to write it all out again.

[texasmama]

You do realize CPS does not swear to uphold the Constitution or any laws of the state.  That is why you call the police and if they decide to involve CPS, they can do that.

 

`The same is true about "mandatory reporters"

 

When a crime is committed, you contact police.  Child abuse is a felony crime!  Why on earth would you call a person who has not sworn to uphold the law of the land to "investigate" something they have a mere paperweight saying they've got some classes in "social" studies.  That's really what it is.  A police officer swears to uphold the constitution and if a crime has been committed, the police officer should be willing to testify against the accused with the evidence they have against them.

I used to work for CPS.  It is a crime to leave a mark on a child. That was not done in this instance.

 

I'm not sure why you need to have this discussion using such questions as the bolded.  I am also not sure why you feel the need to give a lecture.

[AndyJoy]

I missed this post earlier.

 

I gave an example and you come back to say the grandma in your story is not Italian. :huh: Would you also propose I was also saying every Italian grandmother does this?

 

Your mother did not smack you in the face, but she spanked you in a "calm manner". With all due respect, there are people in this world who think your mother abused you and should be in prison, preferably hung without a trial by jury.

 

You are proving my point that you have to tread with caution with these things and be slow to say something is abuse when the situation is not black/white.

Your example gave Italian culture as an appropriate justification for this action that I find appalling.

 

I fully recognize that some people think of spanking in this way. I would hope that were CPS and the police to get invloved it would be sorted out appropriately based on the testimony of everyone with knowledge. I do not defend spanking, but bring it up as an example of how my mom came from an overtly abusive home and became a milder parent due to an involved friend's family taking an interest. I similarly have stood on the shoulders of those before me and, I think, improved upon my upbringing. And I agree with the other posters here that a smack in the face is more than a spank.

[AndyJoy]

Are these the instances you're referring to in post 25 ( multi quote still isn't working for me ) when the police called you stupid for caring and demeaned you? If that's the case, I'd certainly be lodging a complaint against those officers. I'm not questioning your story, it just makes sense to me to lodge a complaint in those circumstances.

Yes! I should have said we felt demeaned--my husband was the one calling but i agreed with his judgement, agreed he should call, and was in it with him. I pushed my husband to report it but he has a defeatist, what-will-it-help-we'll-just-make-police-enemies attitude about it.

[*Alyssa*]

I said I'm sorry if; that's the main reason I can think of why someone would think it was OK to hit kids like that. You only hinted at your story, which made it sound like someone reported your caregivers for something that you see as similarly minor. I don't know your story. I fail to see how this makes me less trustworthy. And if you ask around I'm not some new poster who sets off the "too strange to be true" radar.

"New poster" with a "too strange to be true" radar?  I see.  That perfectly negates my story.  CPS doesn't have any corruption and I lied about it all.  You caught me.

 

AndyJoy, it has been nice speaking to you.  Good night.

[AndyJoy]

"New poster" with a "too strange to be true" radar? I see. That perfectly negates my story. CPS doesn't have any corruption and I lied about it all. You caught me.

 

AndyJoy, it has been nice speaking to you. Good night.

Hey, it was not a stab at you or your credentials in any way! I was speaking of myself since you seem intent on doubting me. I have never said a word of doubt about you!