Stand still with teen numbers

[happycc]

My 5.5yrs old son is at a standstill with teen numbers. 

Can't seem to count beyond 11 or identify numbers beyond it either.

 

A few months back we were stuck at 7 and 8 but was able to pass that barrier.

 

Now need more help with the teens.  Suggestions?

 

Using ten frames, flashcards etc. 

 

Any other ideas?

 

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

I can't remember what you have posted before, so I'm not recalling off the top of my head what else you have tried but have you worked a lot with manipulatives and maybe some basic games, like maybe the Right Start materials or MUS?

 

Maybe read up on the Ronit Bird thread and look at her materials, too?

 

Read up on dyscalculia, too.

[happycc]

Rightstart too distracting for him. 

 

He has to touch everything, start building with them, throwing them ...manipulatives do not work for him. 

 

Everytime I switched activities with Rightstart.... I lost his attention and he runs away/avoidance behavior. 

 

I used Rightstart A with him and he never progressed. No retention. 

 

You think CLE math might work for him

[MomatHWTK]

Wait a year?  Will he do single digit addition? Does he struggle with recognizing the names of the digits or applying their values? 

 

The visuals at Starfall and Splash Math really resonate with my K'er.  

 

The computer based manipulatives are harder to lose.  ;)

 

Here are some free resources-

https://www.google.com/search?q=virtual+math+manipulatives+free&oq=virtual+math+m&aqs=chrome.4.0j69i57j0l4.5704j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

 

 

 

 

[displace]

My 5.5yrs old son is at a standstill with teen numbers.

Can't seem to count beyond 11 or identify numbers beyond it either.

 

A few months back we were stuck at 7 and 8 but was able to pass that barrier.

 

Now need more help with the teens. Suggestions?

 

Using ten frames, flashcards etc.

 

Any other ideas?

 

Is it seeing the numbers and recognition of their names, counting by rote memorization (just saying names in order), and/or counting as he sees objects? These are three different skills IMO and can be worked on separately. Everyday you and he can count, there are some videos on you tube just of counting to learn names of numbers. Then maybe on alternate days work on counting objects, then assigning numbers to the words. Maybe start where he's stuck (11 for example) and just do a few instead of going all the way to 20. For higher concepts (10 is 10 +4), I liked education unboxed methods.

 

It's hard because the names of the numbers are so different. Sometimes the development is still coming along and takes time. Maybe set up a Lego staircase with the numbers written on stickers in the sides and have a minifig walk up the stairs saying the numbers or counting steps. Bounce a ball and say numbers, count jumping jacks, see how long he can stand still (if he can make it to 20). I'd try to make some games like that out of it.

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree that the naming of things and the actual internal sense of numbers are different skills. DD needed more time for her brain to mature before math skills started to even begin to make sense. If you are dealing with dyscalculia math may always be something of a struggle but he may need some time and maturity to have a chance.

[geodob]

The English speaking system of teens, is designed to create confusion?

Where instead you could teach him:

ten one,

ten two,

ten three,

and so on.

 

Which makes sense of them.

We write 1 for 10, and then 11 as ten one makes sense.

 

Eleven did make sense in 'Old English'?

Which began as 'leofan'.

That meant one left over, after ten.

 

The word 'end' was then adopted to mean 1.

Which was then shortened to 'en', and evolved into 'one'.

 

So that 11 became 'endleofan'.

 

But then the 'f' sound was then replaced with a 'v' sound.

Resulting in 'endelovan'.

Where 'endelovan' became shortened to eleven.

 

Also 'five', in Old English was 'fif',  which is why we have fifteen.

 

The word 'twelve', originally meant 'two left over, after ten'.

When 'f' changed to 'v', left became leave'.

Leave two after ten.

 

Which raises a serious question, about the use of Old English terms for numbers, which used to make sense?

But have lost their meaning in Modern English.

[OneStepAtATime]

The English speaking system of teens, is designed to create confusion?

Where instead you could teach him:

ten one,

ten two,

ten three,

and so on.

 

Which makes sense of them.

We write 1 for 10, and then 11 as ten one makes sense.

 

Eleven did make sense in 'Old English'?

Which began as 'leofan'.

That meant one left over, after ten.

 

The word 'end' was then adopted to mean 1.

Which was then shortened to 'en', and evolved into 'one'.

 

So that 11 became 'endleofan'.

 

But then the 'f' sound was then replaced with a 'v' sound.

Resulting in 'endelovan'.

Where 'endelovan' became shortened to eleven.

 

Also 'five', in Old English was 'fif', which is why we have fifteen.

 

The word 'twelve', originally meant 'two left over, after ten'.

When 'f' changed to 'v', left became leave'.

Leave two after ten.

 

Which raises a serious question, about the use of Old English terms for numbers, which used to make sense?

But have lost their meaning in Modern English.

And are a hot mess for kids that struggle.

[happycc]

It is all of the above. He can't read sight words so of course reading the numerals are out of the question and I am leaving that out of math lessons at this point.

 

It is counting beyond 11 that is difficult. 

It is recognizing the numerals beyond 11 that is difficult. 

It is making it on the ten frame that is difficult. 

 

So just right now working on number 12. 

 

So all of the above....

 

hmmm maybe teach it via sign language (ASL) since that helped him read three letter words. 

I'm totally thinking this out of the box at this moment. Can you tell I am desparate?

 

We have used all kinds of online stuff like ABC MOUSE, MATH SEEDS, JIJI math(not there yet in this program) for him to practice counting objects, building up to 20 etc.

[displace]

The English speaking system of teens, is designed to create confusion?

Where instead you could teach him:

ten one,

ten two,

ten three,

and so on.

 

Which makes sense of them.

We write 1 for 10, and then 11 as ten one makes sense.

 

Eleven did make sense in 'Old English'?

Which began as 'leofan'.

That meant one left over, after ten.

 

The word 'end' was then adopted to mean 1.

Which was then shortened to 'en', and evolved into 'one'.

 

So that 11 became 'endleofan'.

 

But then the 'f' sound was then replaced with a 'v' sound.

Resulting in 'endelovan'.

Where 'endelovan' became shortened to eleven.

 

Also 'five', in Old English was 'fif',  which is why we have fifteen.

 

The word 'twelve', originally meant 'two left over, after ten'.

When 'f' changed to 'v', left became leave'.

Leave two after ten.

 

Which raises a serious question, about the use of Old English terms for numbers, which used to make sense?

But have lost their meaning in Modern English.

 

This was super interesting!  I never knew but kind-of wondered how they were named. 

[displace]

Sight words I wouldn't bother with. 

 

Maybe a catchy song like to the ABC song but with numbers, or ring around the rosie?

 

If he has a speech problem then sign language would probably be much better and maybe also be an association with numbers?

[Heathermomster]

When DD was in K, I taught her to count the way that Geodob explained.  I then drew a rectangle on a sheet of paper, divided it into halves, labeled each portion 10s and units, and laminated it.  We took a dry erase marker, a die, and the MUS blocks for 10 and 1 (greens and blues) and made numbers together.  I jotted the numbers down while DD rolled, counted out the blocks, and read them. We worked our way up to making 100s.  Laminating the sheet made things simpler, and we also used this freebie.  

 

ETA:  I never really pushed counting past 10 much.  DD picked that up by making the numbers.  In fact, she leapt conceptually and started counting by 2s and 5s on her own.  I recall thinking that was crazy to witness because she was seeing OT.  She was a little over 6 yo at that time, and her bro has dyscalculia.

[Lecka]

My older son had a lot of trouble with saying the numbers 11,12,13,14, and 15 into 1st grade.  He could do numbers higher than that fine, when they followed the pattern.  He understood the numbers.  He just could not remember how to say those numbers.  He also had a hard time saying "thirteen" and "fourteen" and those were very hard for him to tell apart the word.  

 

My younger son is slower with all his math concepts, and we add one number at a time.  That is pretty normal for a lot of kids.  You can go further, too, but there is also a point where you are just adding one number at a time.  He has global developmental delay and so it is a given he is going to have to spend some time on things, and only add as many new numbers as he can handle at a time.  

 

But with him -- he has a huge difference between what he can do expressively and receptively.  He can point to a number and sequence numbers that are written on cards, that he is not able to count or name.  This is the order he learns, b/c it is harder for him to name or say things.  

 

He has separate goals for rote counting, counting items, receptive identification of numbers (you say a number, he points to the number), expressive identification (you show him a number, he says the name), and sequencing numbers.  Sequencing for him is laying out number cards in a jumbled order, and he puts them in the right answer.  This can start as matching to a number line, filling in gaps, and things, working up to him sequencing them on his own.  

 

I would still ask your ABA therapist about him throwing the manipulatives.  I would keep working on numbers, too, but that would be a higher priority for me.  If he only threw things when working on certain things, I would talk to the ABA therapist about whether those programs might be too difficult.  If it is not that they are too difficult, I would talk to the ABA therapist about how to handle it.  

 

I would not just give up on it b/c the throwing, I would want to feel like I was trying to work on the throwing, too.

 

But I agree -- there is no reason to quit learning numbers -- he can still work on numbers, too, and not be held back.  I would just not ignore the throwing, b/c I am assuming (ask me why lol) that he will also throw pencils, crayons, scissors, craft supplies, cards, etc, if he is throwing manipulatives.  And -- it is just hard to learn if you are throwing all your learning materials.  I think I would ask.  If he is doing this with the ABA therapist -- I would ask about pairing and building a rapport, and see what he/she has to say.  Or just see what he/she has to say in general.  

[Lecka]

My older son had a lot of trouble with saying the numbers 11,12,13,14, and 15 into 1st grade.  He could do numbers higher than that fine, when they followed the pattern.  He understood the numbers.  He just could not remember how to say those numbers.  He also had a hard time saying "thirteen" and "fourteen" and those were very hard for him to tell apart the word.  

 

My younger son is slower with all his math concepts, and we add one number at a time.  That is pretty normal for a lot of kids.  You can go further, too, but there is also a point where you are just adding one number at a time.  He has global developmental delay and so it is a given he is going to have to spend some time on things, and only add as many new numbers as he can handle at a time.  

 

But with him -- he has a huge difference between what he can do expressively and receptively.  He can point to a number and sequence numbers that are written on cards, that he is not able to count or name.  This is the order he learns, b/c it is harder for him to name or say things.  

 

He has separate goals for rote counting, counting items, receptive identification of numbers (you say a number, he points to the number), expressive identification (you show him a number, he says the name), and sequencing numbers.  Sequencing for him is laying out number cards in a jumbled order, and he puts them in the right answer.  This can start as matching to a number line, filling in gaps, and things, working up to him sequencing them on his own.  

 

I would still ask your ABA therapist about him throwing the manipulatives.  I would keep working on numbers, too, but that would be a higher priority for me.  If he only threw things when working on certain things, I would talk to the ABA therapist about whether those programs might be too difficult.  If it is not that they are too difficult, I would talk to the ABA therapist about how to handle it.  

 

I would not just give up on it b/c the throwing, I would want to feel like I was trying to work on the throwing, too.

 

But I agree -- there is no reason to quit learning numbers -- he can still work on numbers, too, and not be held back.  I would just not ignore the throwing, b/c I am assuming (ask me why lol) that he will also throw pencils, crayons, scissors, craft supplies, cards, etc, if he is throwing manipulatives.  And -- it is just hard to learn if you are throwing all your learning materials.  I think I would ask.  If he is doing this with the ABA therapist -- I would ask about pairing and building a rapport, and see what he/she has to say.  Or just see what he/she has to say in general.  

[Minerva]

I tried (and failed) teaching my five and a half year old how to count past ten.  I tried curricula (Right Start didn't work for us either), cuisenaire rods, abacus, grouping items...I finally gave up and just stuck with playing with numbers to ten.

 

When he was sixish, we hit the teens again. I am teaching him ten and one, ten and two, as geodob suggested, staying away from the confusing teen words. It is going much better this time. I do use lots of manipulatives with him, sticking to one type of manipulative at a time. So for example, we made teens with cuisenaire rods  for a few weeks. Then we switched to making teen numbers on the abacus for a few weeks. Then we made groups of ten and leftovers with shells (I think this is when things really started to click).  

 

We are just now showing the written number that goes with the concept. I still use the language ten and four rather than fourteen. I write the number 14 and he lines up a group of ten and then a group of four of whatever manipulative we are using.  He does not understand that this number is equal to the word fourteen.

 

Meanwhile, we spend a little time everyday just counting (while we march!) as high as we can go. I don't tie the counting to the math lesson yet. I have no idea if this is a good idea or not, but he can count to thirty (and sometimes higher) now without my intervention. I just want to wait a little longer before tie the concept to the number.

 

I know you said your son doesn't like manipulatives, but still wanted to share my experience with you since my son sounds so similar to your own. In our case I think that maturity and daily games with manipulatives is what is helping. Best of luck!

[MomatHWTK]

Forgot to mention, some of my kids struggled with place value more than others.  What turned the corner for them was money.  Once they knew what a dollar was worth in actual spending, they quickly caught onto the rest via dimes and pennies.   

[MomOfABunch]

Teen numbers are confusing for a lot of kids, because of the odd way we name them in English, I think. What kind of manipulatives are you using? I prefer base 10 blocks so kids can really see the difference between 10 and 1. I've had a few kids (at school) that had a really hard time with this. What worked with one, was to stop isolating the teens. He learned how to show tens (10, 20, 30, etc.) with base 10 blocks AND counting by 10s. I used a 100s chart and a table headed 100s, 10s and 1s to show him how to sort the base 10 blocks. From there, he learned to show various 2 digit numbers. 1. Find it on 100s chart. 2. How many 10s and how many 1s. 3. Show me with blocks. 4. Great job, what number? 5. Find again on 100s chart. (And maybe write it). Don't forget your visuals, they can be magical!

I also really hammered in place value. This number is the ones, this number is the tens (and hundreds too, if it's not too much). The base 10 blocks really help with this.

Eventually the teen fell into place by working on all double digit numbers. In the beginning, if the kid called 13 10 and 3 or three-teen, I let it go, as I was focusing on the counting aspect of the numbers. Once the concept was solid, I tackled that as a language problem. "The numbers between 11 and 19 have strange names in English, aren't we silly?" 11 is called eleven. What's is called? And so on.

Did any of that make sense? I'm pre-coffee....

[Julie of KY]

My 8 year old can do multiplication and double digit subtraction, but still can't remember the numbers names for 11, 12, 13.

 

I wouldn't introduce numbers on paper until he has the idea of counting larger numbers. If he has the idea, just can't remember a couple of names, then you can work with numbers on paper as well. Until the idea is firm, the number 15 on paper is very abstract.

 

Keep working. Lots of ideas above. It's hard for a number of kids to get theses numbers straight.