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Where you start with RB depends on where your child is. We used Overcoming because DS was a 5th grader who knew add/subtraction facts to 20 and some multiplication facts (1s, 2s, 10s, 11s). RB was very explicit about what math concepts should be mastered prior to multiplication. Armed with her list of concepts, I systematically worked through the concepts with DS using c-rods, colored pencils, and metric graph paper to teach him the distributive property. I used the latter half of the Overcoming book for mental bridging and new methods for long division and multi-digit multiplication. DS could subitize dots, so I didn't bother with dot work. I used RB like a road map and drew upon outside sources to work on concepts when RB seemed too babyish.

 

You could email RB directly and solicit her opinion. I have and she is very helpful. RB actually sent me materials for algebra work.

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Dot patterns is subitizing through 10.  It will build basic number sense and simple addition.  

 

C-Rods builds familiarity with the c-rods through a number of activities.  You then cross over to other manips, going back and forth (beads, numbers, c-rods) so the student can use them interchangeably.  You'll do things that make 10 (9+1, etc.) and place value.  This is when you would start using the FastFacts Math app or something similar, slowly adding to your deck.  Works for us.

 

Multiplication ebook I haven't used yet, but it's multiplication.

 

The ebooks build in that order.  You can jump in anywhere, but you don't want to jump if those prior skills aren't solid as she is definitely moving forward, with no review.  When you've completed those steps (or concluded you don't need them) you're ready to go into Overcoming.  

 

If you start with Overcoming, you'll definitely use the material.  The only question is how many of the ebooks you need to use to build your foundation.  The printed book isn't quite as easy to use as the ebooks, so if you NEED the concepts covered in the ebooks the ebooks will be the preferred way to start.  Once you use the ebooks a bit, it will be clear how you want to use the printed books.

 

Resource is a supplement to the others.  It's cool, but it's a supplement, not a main progression.  Toolkit is largely covered by the three ebooks and RB recommends moving on to Overcoming after you complete the three ebooks.

 

I suggest satisfying your question by buying an ebook tonight.  You could buy the one you think and then back up or go forward, depending on what you see.  It's under $10 and you get instant access, something you can start tomorrow.   :)

 

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I think that's a good decision.  The multiplication ebook will buy you several weeks, perhaps longer, and you'll see more clearly how she does stuff.  It will be MUCH easier to implement than if you bought Overcoming right off the bat, and it will be fun.  Then you can watch amazon for deals.  Maybe they'll do another 25% coupon or something.  That's how I got mine, with a combo of marketplace and the coupon.  

 

Or you could start with Overcoming if you really don't need multiplication covered.  Look at her list of topics for the multiplication ebook.  It will be exactly like what she lists.  

 

Ok, I'm looking at Overcoming.  I haven't used the Multiplication ebook yet, but I'm thinking what she covers there is what she covers in 2 pages (quick review essentially) in Overcoming.  So it's really whether you need a full exposition of multiplication or a two-page spread with a list of some games to play and done.  If you need the full exposition, get the ebook.  If you just need cursory, go straight to Overcoming.  Through page 74 of Overcoming is bridging, then she hits multi-digit and gets right into multiplication.  So you'll definitely need Overcoming as your next step.  It's just whether your ds needs the ebook before that to dig in on the multiplication facts.  I would think the division ought to be coming if he really ahd the multiplication, just like subtraction comes when you really understand addition.

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Grr. I hate making curriculum decisions because of my $, and DS's procedural memory struggles. Don't want to waste his time either.

 

I'll take Cuisenaire Rods and Overcoming out of my Amazon shopping cart and just start with the $10 multiplication e-book. Timez Attack reports say that given 10 seconds, he has +, -, and * facts down, and has 10% of division facts to go, so it seems weird to start with something he's supposedly mastered. But there's obviously a glitch and now I understand what RB materials are available and how much they cost.

If the multiplication facts are mastered, division facts should go quickly. Division facts came quickly to DS, and we even used flashcards, which was a huge no-no at one point. Your child may need practice with a subroutine essential for division. I have never used the e-books because they were not available 4 years ago, so I cannot really compare them. Some people find the books confusing, but for whatever reason, I don't.

 

My only beef with RB is the cost of her materials, but then we have paid more money for tutoring and my son's private school education than I care to count.

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Overcoming is more nicely laid out than Toolkit.  I haven't spent a lot of time with it, but I was just surprised glancing through it last night.  So if you started with Overcoming, that would explain it.  And I think there's also the sense in which when you have NO foundation to build on you need precise steps, whereas when you have some foundation, any variety of next steps might work.  So at the point you came in, you could have done any sensibly chosen next step in Overcoming and been fine.  When I started with ds, he really had to have that right targeted next step to make things click.  Now that he has more foundation, he's more flexible.  And when you need that really precise progression and to have it be really clear (those beginning stages), the ebooks really flesh it out and get it in a clear, tight order.  

 

As far as the cost, I doubt she's making money at this anyway.  

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The thing is, the manipulatives are to teach a concept. If you understand the concept, you then explain it to your child using the rods that you have.  It may be easier to use c-rods. IDK, it is up to you and how flexible you are.  The rods are a means to an end.  It is really about your comfort with teaching.  

 

Up thread I mentioned pre-skills.  See, IDK what the e-books look like, but with Overcoming the student needs to master a certain set of pre-skills prior to jumping into multiplication.  If RB tells you to use her c-rod ebook first, do it because RB has a very specific approach.

 

It was late 5th grade when I ditched son's math book and turned to RB.  I recall being scared which seems odd now that I look back, but I was also desperate.  Initially, DS thought I was joking as we worked through some of the concepts.  Anyways, DS and I worked together following RB methods, and he kept earning himself little victories.  As DS learned his division facts, we had a watershed moment.  I don't know how to say it.  My child started to believe he could learn, and he trusted my math teaching.  Even now when he struggles, DS never gets super frustrated because he trusts that he will eventually learn the concept.

 

 

 

   

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Can I ask for some help too?

 

I have dyscalculia. DD (just about to turn 9) has dyscalculia too. (DS 6 seems to have a real knack for math, from where I'm standing at least, but he also seems to be very capable of self-teaching and understanding concepts seemingly out of thin air.)

 

When I started homeschooling, I could essentially do no arithmetic without a calculator. I used a calculator to figure out stuff like 7+6. Over the last few years, DD and I have been working on math together. We are in the same spot, understanding-wise. We use Primary Mathematics third edition (now no longer available apparently - and we don't own 5a,5b, 6a and 6b). We are currently working on 4a and have hit a real rough spot with multiplying fractions. We can, however, do multi-digit addition and subtraction as well as long division and multiplication successfully. (We have a math tutor to occasionally check our progress, and make sure we are getting correct answers. However, the mathy brain is not much help to us in general. It just thinks differently and seems incapable of explaining stuff to us)

 

My question is essentially where to go from here. I NEED a break from 4a right now. We just don't understand.

 

My first question is whether any of the Ronit Bird books would be a good option for us (and by us I mean me just as much as DD). I don't feel like playing math "games" (math is NOT a game to us) will help. I think we are past the c-rods and adding dominoes stage, but also utterly stuck right now. Which Ronit Bird book is good for people who do understand the four operations but nothing else, if any?

 

The second question is, if the Ronit Bird books are not a good fit for us, what else would be? And here I am referring mainly to what would be a good fit for ME. I feel having DD do revision of mastered concepts for a while is a viable option. I can try to move beyond that myself, and then introduce her when I have a good understanding. I want and need something that explains the "why" as well as the "how" in a way that makes sense to the dyscalculic brain. Right now, it's fractions that are proving to be a nightmare, so maybe something that focuses on this would be good?

 

Thank you!

Here's a Khan video:

https://www.khanacademy.org/math/pre-algebra/fractions-pre-alg/multiplying-fractions-pre-alg/v/multiplying-a-fraction-by-a-fraction

 

I personally think that the Overcoming book by RB is fabulous because she teaches the area model, which is premised upon understanding how to decompose numbers. The area model also may be used to visually demonstrate the commutative and distributive properties of multiplication`. I taught my DS how to factor quadratics and derive the quadratic equation based upon an extenuation of the area model as explained by James Tanton. James Tanton has a website, and he is very helpful.

 

Should you purchase Overcoming for yourself? Email Ronit Bird and ask her. Maybe encourage her to produce some fraction material while you are at it.

 

I rip apart curriculum and adjust it to suit DS, but I have a strong math background. I am also motivated to help DS. I seriously doubt my DS could self teach math, so I applaud you for making every effort. I honestly think you should maybe use Khan, c-rod materials, and hire a tutor. We used MUS for fractions. DS found the MUS videos to be confusing, so I watched and explained. I really felt the MUS instructor had poor white/chalk board habits, and he didn't use clear math language. The fraction overlays with MUS were great though. I just feel you need an understanding tutor that can help identify the specific math weaknesses and explain concepts to you. I realize that finding a good math tutor is difficult. Unfortunately, there is no one math program that can suit all learners.

 

DS uses math mnemonics for process, grid paper, colored pencils, a math fact sheet, and a calculator. Draw pictures, type up process steps in big letters, and just do whatever it takes to internalize solving math problems.

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Thanks for that. I will email her. That is a great idea.

 

We've tried with tutors. My experience is that actual math tutors cannot help us. We live in Eastern Europe. Dyscalculia is not a known thing here. Math tutors simply don't understand why we don't understand as a general rule, and that drives us crazy (literally, depending on how much pressure there is). I might have better luck with, say, a philosophy tutor to try to teach us math.

 

With the fractions, I have no idea how to even use a calculator to get the answer. Nothing makes sense. I know we need to change something, but I don't know what.

Well, I'm curious. Did you understand the Khan video? There were parts of it that could have been explained better.

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You have to have a mac computer/laptop or an ipad of some kind for the e-books.  Make sure if you buy one that you purchase an ipad that it has an iOS of 7 or higher.  The books website says you need iOS 5.1 or higher and iBook 3.  The problem comes with the fact that you CAN NOT download the iBook 3 app on an iPad with less than a iOS 7.  I found that out from personal experience and a great amount of time on the phone with an amazing guy at Apple.  He tried every way he could think to make it work, but they're just not compatible.

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