Celts are a cultural not a genetic group

[Laura Corin]

Interesting study.

 

L

[Spryte]

I read this yesterday, and found it fascinating.

[fraidycat]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Very interesting. 

[mumto2]

Thanks Laura, so West Yorkshire is different? :lol:

[Mom-ninja.]

Ah, my ginger will be sad. He's got a romantic idea that he is a Celt by blood due to his very orange hair. I thinks he likes the excuse to run around in his underwear with a blue painted body. 

[katilac]

Ah, my ginger will be sad. He's got a romantic idea that he is a Celt by blood due to his very orange hair. I thinks he likes the excuse to run around in his underwear with a blue painted body. 

 

Let him live the dream a while longer! 

[Harriet Vane]

Facinating

[Ravin]

Sounds like he's got plenty of cultural affinity anyway!

[SparklyUnicorn]

We have read a lot of history books (lots of Horrible History too). and so this doesn't totally surprise me.

 

Very interesting...

 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

very interesting

[Laura Corin]

Ah, my ginger will be sad. He's got a romantic idea that he is a Celt by blood due to his very orange hair. I thinks he likes the excuse to run around in his underwear with a blue painted body. 

 

He could well still be red haired Scottish or Irish by blood, it's just that he would be genetically different from Welsh, Cornish or Breton people who also call themselves Celts.

 

As a side-note: there is a theory that red hair was successful in Scotland because it is usually accompanied by very pale skin, which improves the amount of Vitamin D that is taken up in northern climes.

[TeacherZee]

I heard about this on the radio the other day and I find it really interesting. The reporter was talking about how this might lead to more studies of the genetic make up of other countries.

[Mom-ninja.]

He could well still be red haired Scottish or Irish by blood, it's just that he would be genetically different from Welsh, Cornish or Breton people who also call themselves Celts.

 

As a side-note: there is a theory that red hair was successful in Scotland because it is usually accompanied by very pale skin, which improves the amount of Vitamin D that is taken up in northern climes.

 

When he was a baby, I had 2 old women oogling over him in the store. They were both Irish. They said that he was definitely an Irish boy. I laughed and said, "Who knows? He's got genes from all over. He's got German genes for sure." They both looked at me dead serious and said, "This boy is not German. Oh, no. He is Irish through and through. We know an Irish baby when we see one."  Well, okey dokey then. :lol: I was almost afraid they were going to take him from me.

 

Yes, he is very pale with freckles. Orange hair, orange eyebrows, orange eyelashes. Grey eyes with gold flecks. Doesn't look ANYTHING like his brothers who are darker skinned and have brown hair and brown eyes. Many people don't know he's my son, and some have asked if he's adopted.

 

Poor kid lives in a very sunny and hot climate.    

[maize]

There is a fascinating documentary series about the Celts on Amazon, it talks about the spread of Celtic culture and language to originally unrelated groups.

[maize]

"The Norman conquest of England did not leave any genetic evidence"--this is quite interesting. I am thinking this means the Normans did not mingle much with the general populace, and there was no large migration of people. Certainly Norman-derived genes would be found among the descendants of the aristocracy?

[Laura Corin]

"The Norman conquest of England did not leave any genetic evidence"--this is quite interesting. I am thinking this means the Normans did not mingle much with the general populace, and there was no large migration of people. Certainly Norman-derived genes would be found among the descendants of the aristocracy?

 

Yes - I suspect that the people chosen would not have been aristocrats: they tend to marry other aristocrats so daughters move away.  They wouldn't meet the criteria for four grandparents in a close geographical area.

[Tsuga]

The study actually said that there was no group of genetically ethnic groups in the UK, NOT that Celts were not a genetically distinct group. I think the implication is that there was enough mixing to obliterate evidence of the Celts within the UK genetic pool.

 

But it doesn't mean Celts are not a genetic group.

[maize]

Here's another article discussing the study http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/19/science/study-reveals-genetic-path-of-modern-britons.html?_r=0

[Laura Corin]

The study actually said that there was no group of genetically ethnic groups in the UK, NOT that Celts were not a genetically distinct group. I think the implication is that there was enough mixing to obliterate evidence of the Celts within the UK genetic pool.

 

But it doesn't mean Celts are not a genetic group.

 

We are talking in different tenses.  I am talking about people who now call themselves Celts - they are not a genetic group.

[Tsuga]

I disagree with the interpretation, though. The study suggests there are Celts, today--just not one uniform Celtic group.

 

"It also finds that people in North and South Wales are more different from each other than the English are from the Scots; and that there are two genetic groupings in Northern Ireland.

 

Prof Mark Robinson, an archaeologist who works with Prof Donnelly at Oxford University, said he was "very surprised" that Celtic groups in Cornwall, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland had such different genetic patterns.

 

"I had assumed at the very early stages of the project that there was going to be this uniform Celtic fringe extending from Cornwall through to Wales into Scotland. And this has very definitely not been the case," he told BBC News.

 

We did not find a single genetic group corresponding to the Celtic traditions in the western fringes of Britain

Prof Peter Donnelly, Oxford University

 

The researchers did see distinct genetic groups within those regions but those groups were quite different from each other, according to Prof Donnelly."

 

Emphasis mine. ;) So, if I were writing the headline, I would write, "Celts are comprised of several distinct genetic groups" or "Diversity within Celts greater than previously expected" followed by the sub-header, "Indicates pre-Britanic population may have been larger and/or more diverse than previously thought."

 

But then, I'm not a British imperialist. Long live democracy on the islands of the North Atlantic, and down with BBC propaganda.

 

(You could use the same reasoning to say that, for example, Native Americans don't exist. Sure, they share only a few markers, so in a sense they aren't a single group. However, suggesting that there was not a group, Native Americans, who lived here, and which was distinct from subsequent groups of settlers, is very unfair. This is simply not how most scientists interpret hierarchical cluster data--usually, first of all, it's left open, but more importantly, greater diversity within a sub-group does not imply merging with the main group.)

[Chrysalis Academy]

I saw this article the other day.  I thought it was interesting. In my family, all the various branches are firmly identified as Scots-Irish and Welsh.  No English, no Irish, no Scottish, no Norse, no German, nothing else, just those two specific identities. It's interesting to think there might be some actual genetic truth to that.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

We did not find a single genetic group corresponding to the Celtic traditions in the western fringes of Britain

Prof Peter Donnelly, Oxford University

 

The researchers did see distinct genetic groups within those regions but those groups were quite different from each other, according to Prof Donnelly."

 

Emphasis mine. ;) So, if I were writing the headline, I would write, "Celts are comprised of several distinct genetic groups" or "Diversity within Celts greater than previously expected" followed by the sub-header, "Indicates pre-Britanic population may have been larger and/or more diverse than previously thought."

 

 

I agree - that would have been a better way to present it.  I found the Cornish cluster particularly striking, given that the Cornish language has been dying for many centuries.

 

On the other hand, nowhere did it say that the Celts were not a cultural group (for comparison with your 'Native Americans didn't exist' idea) nor that the different genetic groups were not in place when the invaders arrived.

[diplomum]

I'm Welsh, and this doesn't surprise me one bit. Interestingly, I don't think Welsh people identify themselves as an "ethnic" group, but rather as a cultural group united mainly through the Welsh language but also culture. Frequent invasions over the millenia, as well a relative free movement of people over time, mean that the Welsh are a diverse group, though mainly Caucasian.Having said that, I swear I can spot a person from North Wales due to a certain "look" many people often have. 

[Tsuga]

I agree - that would have been a better way to present it. I found the Cornish cluster particularly striking, given that the Cornish language has been dying for many centuries.

 

On the other hand, nowhere did it say that the Celts were not a cultural group (for comparison with your 'Native Americans didn't exist' idea) nor that the different genetic groups were not in place when the invaders arrived.

Native Americans comprise a few genetic groups. They are not a cultural group. The headline posted that Celts are not a genetic but cultural group, and to me that is like comparing them to, say, Latinos. Latinos actually are a cultural, multi-racial group. Native Americans also have a lot of within group variation but there is a very real over-arching genetic tent.

 

The article was clear but the headline was misleading and this post title follows that pattern.

 

The English would love never to here from the Scots or Irish again... 😊"You don't really exist" is a common tack in that book. "It's all in your head. " "Just a culture but really you belong to us." I am probably over-sensitive to colonialism.

[Tsuga]

Sorry that was typed on a phone and was Hal incoherent.

[maize]

Native Americans comprise a few genetic groups. They are not a cultural group. The headline posted that Celts are not a genetic but cultural group, and to me that is like comparing them to, say, Latinos. Latinos actually are a cultural, multi-racial group. Native Americans also have a lot of within group variation but there is a very real over-arching genetic tent.

 

The article was clear but the headline was misleading and this post title follows that pattern.

 

The English would love never to here from the Scots or Irish again... 😊"You don't really exist" is a common tack in that book. "It's all in your head. " "Just a culture but really you belong to us." I am probably over-sensitive to colonialism.

 

 

Here is the documentary series I mentioned earlier in the thread http://www.amazon.com/The-Celts-Legend-and-Reality/dp/B00EM76X6W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427294269&sr=8-1&keywords=the+celts

 

I haven't watched the whole thing but I seem to remember a discussion of genetic evidence that the Celtic groups in Britain/Ireland are not genetically related to the Celts of Germany etc. who apparently spread the culture throughout Europe. My understanding was that the culture and language spread to Britain, not so much the people; people who were in the area already simply adopted Celtic traditions.

[Laura Corin]

The English would love never to here from the Scots or Irish again... 😊"You don't really exist" is a common tack in that book. "It's all in your head. " "Just a culture but really you belong to us." I am probably over-sensitive to colonialism.

 

Hmm.... you do know I live in Scotland don't you?  I spend all day, every day with Scots.  So I am aware of the sensitivities.

 

I absolutely understand the feeling that Scottish people (for example) have of being dominated by the English.  But the history is not simple.  For example, the kingdoms united first when a Scottish king took the throne of England and more completely as part of a financial deal to bail out Scotland.  So it's not a straightforward tale of dominance.

 

That being said, I do agree that the BBC does a poor job on this issue.

[maize]

This is the professor who appears in the documentary:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Sykes