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Almost every Central African Republican Church Destroyed...


umsami
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Actually, it's every mosque.  All 436 of them.  At least according to the US ambassador to the UN (and not Claire Underwood. ;))

 

I'm posting this because I see so many of those can you believe what the Muslims did type posts.

 

It's not just Muslims.

 

It's Christians too.  It can be Buddhists with the Rohingya (Muslims).  It can be Hindus, like with the rape of the nun in Ranaghat.

 

I'm betting you didn't hear about this on your local news or news feed.  

 

Are any of the faiths who do these things following the tenants of their faith? Absolutely not.  Are there usually other things at play? Other motives?

 

Yup.  CAR has issues regarding a history of colonization and coups.  Not unlike the Middle East and North Africa, which are still feeling the effects of colonization and Western powers determining borders. 

 

Posting this just as something to remember next time you're shocked by what those Muslims did.  They're not the only ones.  And they are following their faith just about as much as these Christians are (which is not at all).  

 

Oh, and yes, I do know that there are some who believe that this is a good thing.  That there shouldn't be mosques there or in the United States (or anywhere ideally).  I used to live in TN.  I'm well aware of that.  

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I'm betting you didn't hear about this on your local news or news feed.

 

I did, actually, but that's because I've been following the situation in CAR. Still, I agree with your main point. I see far too often "Those Muslims this" and "Those Muslim that" and people act surprised when I point out huge terroristic violence against Muslims (by people who aren't Muslim) is also ongoing.

 

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Actually, it's every mosque.  All 436 of them.  At least according to the US ambassador to the UN (and not Claire Underwood. ;))

 

I'm posting this because I see so many of those can you believe what the Muslims did type posts.

 

It's not just Muslims.

 

It's Christians too.  It can be Buddhists with the Rohingya (Muslims).  It can be Hindus, like with the rape of the nun in Ranaghat.

 

I'm betting you didn't hear about this on your local news or news feed.  

 

Are any of the faiths who do these things following the tenants of their faith? Absolutely not.  Are there usually other things at play? Other motives?

 

Yup.  CAR has issues regarding a history of colonization and coups.  Not unlike the Middle East and North Africa, which are still feeling the effects of colonization and Western powers determining borders. 

 

Posting this just as something to remember next time you're shocked by what those Muslims did.  They're not the only ones.  And they are following their faith just about as much as these Christians are (which is not at all).  

 

Oh, and yes, I do know that there are some who believe that this is a good thing.  That there shouldn't be mosques there or in the United States (or anywhere ideally).  I used to live in TN.  I'm well aware of that.  

 

I would hope classical educators would know all of this and never find themselves in need of such a scolding toward the entire board (which I believe is against board rules). This post puts a bad taste in my mouth when I consider all the threads in which I have participated where the majority of thoughts expressed are not bigotry toward Muslims but rather an attempt to understand and defend all true worshipers as well as those of no faith, just in an attempt toward humanism...we're at our best in those moments and I wish you saw your board friends that way instead of as you portray us in this post.

 

But I don't live in a fairyland and I have no doubt you've seen what you're criticizing, even among those enjoying the lofty pursuit of a liberal arts education. I've seen some of it, too, even on those threads I'm so proud of...our humanity comes out in those threads in an attempt to push against inappropriate remarks. I am truly regretful that we've come no father, although all rational people know that no amount of education will ever eradicate bigotry. It's always more hate than anything else, even ignorance, when it happens.

 

I see this as an understandable but divisive post. I honestly hope no board members, especially old friends, devolve into negativity toward one another over its duration.

 

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I would hope classical educators would know all of this and never find themselves in need of such a scolding toward the entire board (which I believe is against board rules). This post puts a bad taste in my mouth when I consider all the threads in which I have participated where the majority of thoughts expressed are not bigotry toward Muslims but rather an attempt to understand and defend all true worshipers as well as those of no faith, just in an attempt toward humanism...we're at our best in those moments and I wish you saw your board friends that way instead of as you portray us in this post.

 

But I don't live in a fairyland and I have no doubt you've seen what you're criticizing, even among those enjoying the lofty pursuit of a liberal arts education. I've seen some of it, too, even on those threads I'm so proud of...our humanity comes out in those threads in an attempt to push against inappropriate remarks. I am truly regretful that we've come no father, although all rational people know that no amount of education will ever eradicate bigotry. It's always more hate than anything else, even ignorance, when it happens.

 

I see this as an understandable but divisive post. I honestly hope it doesn't devolve into negativity toward one another over its duration.

 

First off, this was not meant to be a scolding to the entire board....although I'm sorry if it comes off as such.

 

Tibbie, I'd like to be optimistic and think otherwise, but no,  have no doubts that it will end up in negativity.....or even more likely, the Christians will be dismissed as "not true Christians" but we all know that ISIS and others are true Muslims following the Qur'an when they do these things (roll eyes).   

 

I cannot count the number of threads I've been on that have been basically defending my choice of faith...against some really horrible accusations that one would hope people educating their own children would know are not true.  I also know of a few Muslim homeschoolers who no longer frequent these boards because of such threads....and I'll admit, I've become quite close to becoming one of them.  I dread every time I see a post about Islam because I wonder...do I want to put myself through that? Is it even worth typing the same things again and again.....trying to put that voice of a "real live" Muslim in the thread which often contains such hate?  I really don't know.  

 

You're right.  Perhaps this post was a bad idea.  

 

Mods...feel free to delete.  

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First off, this was not meant to be a scolding to the entire board....although I'm sorry if it comes off as such.

 

Tibbie, I'd like to be optimistic and think otherwise, but no,  have no doubts that it will end up in negativity.....or even more likely, the Christians will be dismissed as "not true Christians" but we all know that ISIS and others are true Muslims following the Qur'an when they do these things (roll eyes).   

 

I cannot count the number of threads I've been on that have been basically defending my choice of faith...against some really horrible accusations that one would hope people educating their own children would know are not true.  I also know of a few Muslim homeschoolers who no longer frequent these boards because of such threads....and I'll admit, I've become quite close to becoming one of them.  I dread every time I see a post about Islam because I wonder...do I want to put myself through that? Is it even worth typing the same things again and again.....trying to put that voice of a "real live" Muslim in the thread which often contains such hate?  I really don't know.  

 

You're right.  Perhaps this post was a bad idea.  

 

Mods...feel free to delete.  

 

How horrible. :( How horrible. And how tragic for all of us, this loss of fellow classical homeschoolers due to bigotry on the boards. I know no attempt to show people that they're talking about real people is wasted...

 

I wish I knew the answers for these horrible times. I don't think people are becoming more open minded even though the globe is shrinking, so to speak. I think people are setting up camps and hunkering down. Actually, I know they are. I witnessed it tonight. I guess that's one reason I sounded so grim about your post. Not wanting to think it's here, still wishing education was the answer.

 

What happened? I had to walk out of a new Bible class I was visiting. Unfortunately, it wasn't a religious gathering, it was a political meeting, which had NOT been in the brochure. (Not concerning bigoted attitudes toward people of other faiths but about a local government issue that is very polarizing in our community. There should not have been unanimity, even in a church, because it's one of those deals where very good people can find themselves on either side.) Now I have to find out if my kids have heard any of that kind of talk in Sunday school...of course I already know the answer if I heard it in the adult class...

 

This business of "We are ________ so we all think _______. QED." It's got to stop. I agree with you on that, although I disagreed some with the style of your OP. I think we'll do better with communication and alliances, for example here on the boards we can change the voice of the Hive Mind if the Mean Girls will focus on the issue a little. We've done it about other things, with varying levels of success.

 

Edited to add: That last bit is probably wishful thinking but it's all I've got to offer as an alternative. :(

 

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I sometimes feel pretty inadequate, personally attacked, and judged for my faith on this board (in some threads) which is why I am selective about what posts I make. I am not Muslim, but I feel my faith under attack on many posts, just choose not to debate. In skimming recent posts, I am wondering if debating the age of the earth should be against board rules just like politics. It seems the age of the earth just pushes everyone's buttons moreso than politics. I learn so much on many threads and value most postings on several threads. I try to be helpful and encouraging if I can be. I am guilty of some judgemental vents (not against Muslims though). It is unlike me to comment on a thread of this subject matter, but the attacks you and your friends have felt on this board for your faith are in the same line with the attacks of my beliefs...but only in certain threads, not the board as a whole.

 

I understand your vent, though. Just wanted to let you know that other faiths get dug into the ground as well. I feel in your post you have bitterness to my faith....that it generalizes all Christians as you see Christians generalizing all Muslims. It seems you think I automatically think my faith is perfect full of people who don't do horrific things, when I know they do. I know the media is biased in its reports as well.

 

I am terribly sorry about the situation you posted about. I know situations like that regularlyhappen all around the world to people of varying faiths, we just hear about certain ones. I didn't hear about your posted story, but that is because I don't keep up with world news as I should. I do think it is sad that we are spoon fed by the media one sided news all the time.

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Not really on topic, but I binged watched this doco series yesterday. http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/specialseries/2015/02/time-punchbowl-1975-1996-150223102756878.html

Sydney is a long way away from Melbourne and so very different. Pairing that with the old episodes of Salam Cafe (which came out of Melbourne) I tripped over on Youtube has been interesting.

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First off, this was not meant to be a scolding to the entire board....although I'm sorry if it comes off as such.

 

Tibbie, I'd like to be optimistic and think otherwise, but no,  have no doubts that it will end up in negativity.....or even more likely, the Christians will be dismissed as "not true Christians" but we all know that ISIS and others are true Muslims following the Qur'an when they do these things (roll eyes).   

 

I cannot count the number of threads I've been on that have been basically defending my choice of faith...against some really horrible accusations that one would hope people educating their own children would know are not true.  I also know of a few Muslim homeschoolers who no longer frequent these boards because of such threads....and I'll admit, I've become quite close to becoming one of them.  I dread every time I see a post about Islam because I wonder...do I want to put myself through that? Is it even worth typing the same things again and again.....trying to put that voice of a "real live" Muslim in the thread which often contains such hate?  I really don't know.  

 

You're right.  Perhaps this post was a bad idea.  

 

Mods...feel free to delete.  

No. It's not. People want to be ignorant. You're a terrorist that hates America, I'm an ignorant bigot, and every Mexican in the US needs to go home. It doesn't matter what you say or what you do, to some people you will never be a person, just a Muslim. I hear what's being said behind the backs of Muslims. There has been nothing that I could ever say or do to change someones mind and BELIEVE ME, I've tried.

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Actually, it's every mosque. All 436 of them. At least according to the US ambassador to the UN (and not Claire Underwood. ;))

 

I'm posting this because I see so many of those can you believe what the Muslims did type posts.

 

It's not just Muslims.

 

It's Christians too. It can be Buddhists with the Rohingya (Muslims). It can be Hindus, like with the rape of the nun in Ranaghat.

 

I'm betting you didn't hear about this on your local news or news feed.

 

Are any of the faiths who do these things following the tenants of their faith? Absolutely not. Are there usually other things at play? Other motives?

 

Yup. CAR has issues regarding a history of colonization and coups. Not unlike the Middle East and North Africa, which are still feeling the effects of colonization and Western powers determining borders.

 

Posting this just as something to remember next time you're shocked by what those Muslims did. They're not the only ones. And they are following their faith just about as much as these Christians are (which is not at all).

 

Oh, and yes, I do know that there are some who believe that this is a good thing. That there shouldn't be mosques there or in the United States (or anywhere ideally). I used to live in TN. I'm well aware of that.

I think this "Churches.... Actually it's mosques" thing was pretty tacky and uncalled-for.

 

I just don't see this forum being filled with negative posts about Muslims, so I think it was quite out of line to scold all of us in this way. You make it sound as though it is some sort of prevailing prejudice here, when I don't believe that to be the case at all.

 

Are you sure you aren't being overly sensitive?

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I sometimes feel pretty inadequate, personally attacked, and judged for my faith on this board (in some threads) which is why I am selective about what posts I make. 

 

As others have posted, it's not always faith.  Evangelical "anything" (atheists, nutritionists, healthists, schoolists, etc) can be quite condemning of those who are equally as intelligent, but make other choices than they do.  It's a natural human belief that anyone as intelligent as we are should believe the same things if only they know all the "facts."  It can take people a long time to learn that this is a fallacy.

 

Once you've read a few threads that delve into these topics, you've essentially read them all.

 

For me, this means I skip oodles of threads or drop off them once they reach a point.

 

Once in a while I'll continue, but only when I have time to kill.  It's actually very rare that any tactless folks get to me, but honestly?  Just reading blah, blah, blah again is quite boring.  There's no sin in skipping threads or even skimming what some folks type.

 

BUT, there is a plus when one reads the threads that it does help us understand where people are coming from in their thoughts.  We definitely don't all agree on any topic - and never will - but understanding other viewpoints is quite valuable as we go through this life.

 

And many, many, many of us on this board have a "Live and Let Live" attitude.  You just don't always see those folks on controversial threads as we do tend to skip many of them.  ;)

 

As to the OP's post, I find the news sad.  But it is a sad fact in so many places.  Atheists wanted to get rid of all places of worship too (many probably still want to).  It hits all areas due to that natural human response mentioned above.

 

As educators, I promote teaching "Live and Let Live."  Our planet would be so much better off.

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Are you sure you aren't being overly sensitive?

I don't think she is. I've seen a number of threads where Islam is brought up as a negative. I don't keep track of them, but I cringe every time.

 

Perhaps I notice because of the area I live, which is very mixed. I have Muslim neighbors. I also have gay neighbors. I used to have creationist Christian neighbors, but those families have moved. I take that back the family 4 doors down from me is creationist, at least they attend a creationist based church. There are neighbors I don't know well enough to know well enough to know their beliefs or whether they are gay. But I do get along with everyone, including the guy who has alienated 99% of the neighborhood with overzealous parking enforcement.

 

My point is I don't believe the op is not blowing bias in threads out of proportion.

 

I think it's easy to say stuff here than IRL because of some anonymity. I guess I partly take this as a reminder to be thoughtful about the opinions you post. There is only a small group compared to total participants here who identify as Muslim. When your group is small it is hard yo speak up for fear of being trampled. Being trampled here is no fun! I remember years ago I posted asking for advice about my ds and the responce was so judgemental it was deeply painful. I cannot imagine feeling that every time I've seen a post negative toward Islam.

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I don't think she is. I've seen a number of threads where Islam is brought up as a negative. I don't keep track of them, but I cringe every time.

 

 

To address an earlier thread, I do skip most of the hot topic controversial against differing beliefs just as I would political threads if they were allowed. This thread wasn't titled as such, it was titled like news info.

 

To address the above, there are far more attacks in the stupidity and narrow mindedness of YEC Christians than Islam in this board lately. . And agreed, it's not just religion, just this week I saw someone rudely criticizing people with medical conditions as a whole ( a post that was deleted when that OP realized that she PO'ed most of the board).

 

i would have avoided this thread if it were titled as " vent against Christians who click on a post about churches destroyed, but who want all Muskim mosques destroyed." Or vent against "people who live in TN, because I used to live there and know they don't want Muslims there". Just as Imwould avoid a thread that was about other things other than religion that get controversial to the degree of BPs rising. There was a post recently to vent against YEC creationist that got heated, but I don't want to go there because I was glad there were apologies. Before the apology, I didn't even read the original heated thread because I knew it was no good to try to defend my views on this board.

 

nm on the rest...sorry if I offended

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I sometimes feel pretty inadequate, personally attacked, and judged for my faith on this board (in some threads) which is why I am selective about what posts I make. I am not Muslim, but I feel my faith under attack on many posts, just choose not to debate. In skimming recent posts, I am wondering if debating the age of the earth should be against board rules just like politics. It seems the age of the earth just pushes everyone's buttons moreso than politics. I learn so much on many threads and value most postings on several threads. I try to be helpful and encouraging if I can be. I am guilty of some judgemental vents (not against Muslims though). It is unlike me to comment on a thread of this subject matter, but the attacks you and your friends have felt on this board for your faith are in the same line with the attacks of my beliefs...but only in certain threads, not the board as a whole.

 

I understand your vent, though. Just wanted to let you know that other faiths get dug into the ground as well. I feel in your post you have bitterness to my faith....that it generalizes all Christians as you see Christians generalizing all Muslims. It seems you think I automatically think my faith is perfect full of people who don't do horrific things, when I know they do. I know the media is biased in its reports as well.

 

I am terribly sorry about the situation you posted about. I know situations like that regularlyhappen all around the world to people of varying faiths, we just hear about certain ones. I didn't hear about your posted story, but that is because I don't keep up with world news as I should. I do think it is sad that we are spoon fed by the media one sided news all the time.

 

Expecting discussions on basic scientific literacy to be off limits on a homeschooling board seems a bit unreasonable to me.

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I think there's a difference between thinking someone's particular beliefs about the age of the earth are stupid (and, by extension, make the believer stupid, although I certainly don't think that) and thinking that a person's religion itself makes them violent.

 

It would be hard for a lot of us here if we were hanging out on an education board, open to anyone involved in education, and there was a constant beat that instead of homeschoolers being weird and unsocialized, that homeschooling leads to abuse and produces adults who are completely incapable of functioning in the world.  I know I'd get tired of defending homeschooling there was a vibe on the board that homeschooling itself encouraged and allowed people to be evil instead of a vibe that it's just weird.  

 

I don't think most people here think Islam is evil or that there is a general vibe here that Islam is evil, fortunately.  But there are certainly negative posts about Islam and of course Muslim posters are more likely to see all of them because they're more likely to open all the posts about Islam, just like I try to not miss any posts about my Mormon faith because Mormons get weird stuff too, although usually not the evil stuff. I do think there are a lot of people in the world who are scared of Islam and Muslims right now and fear messes with the logical part of people's brains sometimes which makes it harder to talk about some of these things rationally.  I do think these conversations are important.  

 

I wish Muslims weren't expected to explain and try to stop bad things done in the name of Islam any more than I want to be responsible for or connected in any way at all with people who use homeschooling to do evil things.

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I think this "Churches.... Actually it's mosques" thing was pretty tacky and uncalled-for.

 

I don't think I agree. It's a common bait and switch tactic to make a point. Did you notice the feeling you had when you read the thread? Did you feel any sense of relief that it wasn't *your* community that was targeted? If not you, I'll bet others had. That's the point - exposing this sense of relief at discovering your own tribe is safe by making you experience it. "You" being the general reader. That kind of tribalism spurs this violence, and while I disagree with umsami that it isn't following the faith (violent conquest is every bit as Christian as it is Muslim, reference the divinely inspired texts for examples), I completely agree with the point that tribalism is dangerous, and that this culture blatantly propagandizes the direction of acceptable tribalism (not necessarily the practical application, but the direction). So I don't think it was tacky, but controversial. And that's really part of the point, isn't it? Exposing the hypocrisy in this controversy? Obviously these boards are populated with people outspoken about a number of different opinions, so while her opinion may not reflect yours or mine, surely it reflects others. And that's good to know, too. 

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I sometimes feel pretty inadequate, personally attacked, and judged for my faith on this board (in some threads) which is why I am selective about what posts I make. I am not Muslim, but I feel my faith under attack on many posts, just choose not to debate. In skimming recent posts, I am wondering if debating the age of the earth should be against board rules just like politics. It seems the age of the earth just pushes everyone's buttons moreso than politics. 

nm

Edited by Susan Wise Bauer
IMO, this crosses the line into attacking another poster's beliefs.
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Either we keep talking, and yes, have days where our skin is thin, and we emote or over-react, and then we simmer down and keep listening and talking - or we end up with a forum that is only for our own kind, and for the discussion of laundry tips.

 

 

 

 

This is it in a nutshell.  I would rather have a place where we keep talking, even when it gets messy.  

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I don't think I agree. It's a common bait and switch tactic to make a point. Did you notice the feeling you had when you read the thread? Did you feel any sense of relief that it wasn't *your* community that was targeted? If not you, I'll bet others had. That's the point - exposing this sense of relief at discovering your own tribe is safe by making you experience it. "You" being the general reader. That kind of tribalism spurs this violence, and while I disagree with umsami that it isn't following the faith (violent conquest is every bit as Christian as it is Muslim, reference the divinely inspired texts for examples), I completely agree with the point that tribalism is dangerous, and that this culture blatantly propagandizes the direction of acceptable tribalism (not necessarily the practical application, but the direction). So I don't think it was tacky, but controversial. And that's really part of the point, isn't it? Exposing the hypocrisy in this controversy? Obviously these boards are populated with people outspoken about a number of different opinions, so while her opinion may not reflect yours or mine, surely it reflects others. And that's good to know, too. 

 

I can honestly say I didn't have a feels either way, but in fairness I had a strong suspicion Umsami wasn't actually posting about the burning of Christian churches.

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So there was no claim that churches in CAR had been destroyed?  I'm confused.  My take on the title/first line was that mosques had been destroyed but some Christians were claiming it was churches.

 

No...no claim, although I'm sure many have been destroyed in the fighting...but it hasn't been all of them.  (Not to say that in other parts of the world, it isn't the Christian churches that are destroyed...although historically, Muslims (and Christians in the case of Spain) just liked to repurpose religious buildings, for lack of a better word.  So, when what is now Turkey became Muslim, the old churches became mosques...... and in Spain...the old mosques became churches after the Muslims lost power.)

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Expecting discussions on basic scientific literacy to be off limits on a homeschooling board seems a bit unreasonable to me.

Yes, in theory that sounds great! Also we should be able to discuss political views respectively on a homeschool board of all places. I only reference it because on this board it becomes a HEATED debate that makes the view on either side seems ridiculous and narrow minded, just as a political thread discussing liberals and conservative views would likely become. We SHOULD be able to discuss either without bashing. Not to accuse anyone personally as bashing, just thinking of a few posts here and there. I am not Catholic, but I was so taken back by an anti-Catholic remark recently. I felt like some Catholics would read it and feel the same way OP feels reading remarks about her faith or the way I feel when I read a thread that i really think is news info yet later on down thread turns out to be a "gotcha Christians for clicking here thinking your faith was under attack, and now you're relieved that it wasn't your fellow believers, but a group you think doesn't deserve a place of worship anyway." I would have been as much disheartened had I read, "Mosques destroyed in CAR" as when I read churches were destroyed. But evidently, I've been generalized as a bigot who was relieved to find out something horrific happened to a people group, but it wasn't my people group.

 

edited out this section d paragraph, quoted below, because I realize it wasn't an issue in this thread, something I got confused about elsewhere, and even more OT than where I've already veered from the postings.

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If you would've thought "good!" had OP said "mosque" instead of "church," then you're probably offended by her title. Otherwise, being offended about being misled by a thread title seems...manufactured.

 

The Hive encouraged a poster to switch the sexes in a DV/stalking situation to see if it made a difference in her thinking. Here, we are switching religions. She's encouraging people to think differently about current events. She's not lecturing or proselytizing.

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 I dread every time I see a post about Islam because I wonder...do I want to put myself through that? Is it even worth typing the same things again and again.....trying to put that voice of a "real live" Muslim in the thread which often contains such hate?  I really don't know.  

 

Yes, it is worth it.  Because for every person who posts in a thread, there are bazillions more (scientific mathematical analysis there) who are reading without commenting.  Write for the lurkers, always.  They are listening.

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Yes, in theory that sounds great! Also we should be able to discuss political views respectively on a homeschool board of all places. I only reference it because on this board it becomes a HEATED debate that makes the view on either side seems ridiculous and narrow minded, just as a political thread discussing liberals and conservative views would likely become. We SHOULD be able to discuss either without bashing. Not to accuse anyone personally as bashing, just thinking of a few posts here and there. I am not Catholic, but I was so taken back by an anti-Catholic remark recently. I felt like so,e Catholics would read it and feel the same way OP feels reading remarks about her faith or the way I feel when I read a thread that a really thinks is news info yet later on down thread turns out to be a "gotcha Christians for clicking here thinking your faith was under attack, and now you're relieved that it wasn't your fellow believers, but a group you think doesn't deserve a place of worship anyway." I would have been as much disheartened had I read, "Mosques destroyed in CAR" as when I read churches were destroyed. But evidently, I've been generalized as a bigot who was relieved to find out something horrific happened to a people group, but it wasn't my people group.

 

And sorry folks, I am that YEC neighbor who goes to a conservative evangelical church that has apparently been like the worse neighbor one could have by the majority. I have never said anything negative about other views and ai don't go around the neighborhood shaming people who don't hold my view. But to think some people might not want to live near me and avoid me at all cost in the good old USA land of the free, even though I am a decent citizen and try to be kind to others is just weird.

My guess is you aren't the kind of YEC neighbor they were talking about, but I am not sure as I didn't see that thread. However, your earlier posts seem to express an issue with the discussion of YEC beliefs/curricula, and those will be a topic of discussion in a place where education is (or should be) taken seriously.

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nm

 


 Umsamii posted about mosques being destroyed in the CAR. That is a terrible, newsworthy story that probably will get overlooked by American media. But belittling the beliefs of another member of this community only cause hurt and anger. How does that help Umsami get her point across? As grown women, it seems as though we should be able to discuss difficult topics without resorting to attacks on other's worldview.

Edited by Susan Wise Bauer
Deleted quote. Left helpful observation.
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I think the "bait and switch" (I wish I could think of a less loaded term) was jarring and made it more difficult to read the content of the original post with an open mind.

 

Everyone who has spent any significant time on these boards knows that umsami is not a pot stirrer and is a very moderate, reasonable, and non-judgmental voice for Muslims. Perhaps she didn't realize how it would come across but I think it would behoove people to realize that Muslims (and I am one) get tired of some of the stuff that happens around here. She was just trying to make a point and I think her post should be seen in the light of her many kind and meaningful contributions to the boards.

 

Salam (peace)

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Yeah, those YEC people are idiots because, you know, SCIENCE. :glare:

 

I don't believe in YEC, either, but I can respectfully agree to disagree about it instead of treating the YEC crowd as though they are complete morons, because -- news flash -- they are nothing of the kind. They are just as intelligent as anyone else here, but I am sure many of them are afraid to post about their beliefs because they know they will be ridiculed. And that's not right.

Thank you. I appreciate your respectful disagreement very much. Being accused of being anti science or ignorant, when our family is chock full of science fields in both hobby and profession, is rather frustrating. And last time I checked I was drooling from exhaustion, not idiocy.
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So it's fine to "not respect" YEC, but other than that, we have to respect other people's religious beliefs?

 

So we get to pick and choose which religious beliefs are OK to respect, and then we get to ridicule the others? And as long as we talk about "facts," it's OK to ridicule people?

 

Sorry, but I find that concept to be incredibly intolerant -- and I don't even remotely believe in YEC.

Not all beliefs are worthy of equal consideration. Would we take someone seriously if they insisted the sun revolved around the earth despite evidence to the contrary?

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I think it is very sad that you believe that people would have felt relieved to hear that it was mosques that were destroyed instead of churches.

 

I would never assume that anyone on this forum would have felt that way. I think the vast majority of people here would equate mosques with churches in their minds and feel horrible that another person's place of worship had been destroyed.

 

Relief was my immediate gut reaction. Instantly, I knew why Umsami titled it the way she did and thought doing so was brilliant. I do feel horrible that the mosques were destroyed, but my initial emotions betrayed my logical side. I'm not proud to admit this. I don't want to have this kind of bias. But I do, and being aware of this bias is a good thing, IMO.

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I think it is very sad that you believe that people would have felt relieved to hear that it was mosques that were destroyed instead of churches.

 

I would never assume that anyone on this forum would have felt that way. I think the vast majority of people here would equate mosques with churches in their minds and feel horrible that another person's place of worship had been destroyed.

 

I don't suggest anyone here is celebrating the fact that mosques have been destroyed, and that's the implication I think you're arguing against, an implication I don't make. My point is that if the OP's title and subsequent post was meant to convey a sense of relief - in whatever measure - that it was "them" instead of "us," then her goal, as I interpret it, would have been realized. 

 

I think it's sad, too, but not unreasonable to assume that there are a number of people who would respond predictably with a natural, instinctive knee-jerk reaction to a such a bait and switch. This isn't about religion, it's about tribalism thinking, a cognitive bias humans have evolved as part of our social identities. We are generally more upset when a loved one suffers, and that empathy extends out from our kin, to our community, and eventually to others who are far removed from us. Some people are conditioned to suppress that empathy when "them," whoever "them" is identified to be, suffers. Defenses such as "they brought it upon themselves," or "they should have known better," or "they made their bed, now they have to lie in it," or even "I told you so," illustrate some of the many ways we rationalize a lack of empathy based on a person being a member of a different "tribe," however that "tribe" may be identified (religion, politics, sexual orientation, race, gender, class, etc). 

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So it's fine to "not respect" YEC, but other than that, we have to respect other people's religious beliefs?

 

So we get to pick and choose which religious beliefs are OK to respect, and then we get to ridicule the others? And as long as we talk about "facts," it's OK to ridicule people?

 

Sorry, but I find that concept to be incredibly intolerant -- and I don't even remotely believe in YEC.

 

Catwoman, are you seriously saying that you respect the beliefs of people who believe that the sun goes around the earth, or that the earth is flat, or that Jesus spoke English (sadly, those people do exist, I've spoken to some)?

 

Do you also respect the beliefs of people who think Elvis is still alive, or that there was no Holocaust, or that you will get a cramp if you go swimming less than one hour after lunch, or that the moon landing was faked? Or is it only religious beliefs that you respect?

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So it's fine to "not respect" YEC, but other than that, we have to respect other people's religious beliefs?

 

So we get to pick and choose which religious beliefs are OK to respect, and then we get to ridicule the others? And as long as we talk about "facts," it's OK to ridicule people?

 

Sorry, but I find that concept to be incredibly intolerant -- and I don't even remotely believe in YEC.

 

What post argues not respecting YEC, but respecting other people's religious beliefs? By "other people's" I'm assuming you mean non-christian? Which post? Which sentences argue this point. Please be specific. 

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My point exactly in bringing YEC Christian up is the OP brought up, lower In the thread, some of her friends left this board over anti-Muslim posts and she thought about leaving too, but was still undecided (not exact words). I brought up my belief (I could have equally said I was Buddhist, Jewish, or whatever) and stated I feel my belief gets bashed just as she feels hers is. TBH, I also felt a few comments about the Christians in general following were a backlash, but probably I misinterpreted.

 

However, unless someone can convince me otherwise, the views that Albeto expresses in the above comments is reason enough to steer clear of this board ( that is if it's so terribly degrading to be a YEC, and everyone else has a right to defend for their faith, to be the minority voice that brings about change. Yet the YEC view is a detriment to society, not even deserving of discussion in a belief thread....it is after all a belief in my very humble, and evidently uneducated, opinion. I am not trying to prove YEC, I am not trying to debate, I fully understand it is a minority view here and am not trying to convert anybody to my side. I feel the same way everytime a thread about YEC comes up, and it comes up way more often than Islam thread, and try to avoid the conversation. The fact that the 2 do not correlate is beyond me, because YEC are prone to violent attacks resulting in killings throughout the world just as people of other faiths. Anyone kept up with the under the radar news on Egyptian Christians lately? It isn't pretty, and neither is the Muslim persecution. Had there been threads against Buddhists recently, I would have brought that up instead..... (Note to self, should have claimed to be a Buddhust vs a YEC to see if that would have changed a couple reactions to my comparison). Can I shout it out?: I meant bashing of YEC as an EXAMPLE, not to be turned into a debate of whether it constituted an actual religion (plenty of Jewish and Christians hold it as part of their belief system...not that I am going to argue or belittle with anyone who thinks otherwise)......

 

I must have not had my wits about me last night to even comment...reminder to keep my mouth shut...especially since I adhere to a "flashing neon sign" faulty and immature belief....I should be reported for educational neglect of my children, because I obviously have been so wrong! I must not belong on an education board in the 1st place becauseI don't k ow the difference in an education and a religious hot topic (YEC is both, In my, once again uneducated, opinion).

 

(As an aside, I do give free reign for anyone to call me out on admittedly improper grammar, punctuation, and spelling)

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Relief was my immediate gut reaction. Instantly, I knew why Umsami titled it the way she did and thought doing so was brilliant. I do feel horrible that the mosques were destroyed, but my initial emotions betrayed my logical side. I'm not proud to admit this. I don't want to have this kind of bias. But I do, and being aware of this bias is a good thing, IMO.

 

You know what? It was mine too. It wasn't mine because I'm glad churches weren't targeted but mosques were, but I was glad because after yesterday's attack in Tunisia, my immediate reaction was to expect another event of Muslim terrorism. I think it's a natural reaction, whether that betrays my own bias or reflects the information I'm more likely to hear in the US, or a reasonable expectation, it was my immediate thought nevertheless. And I think that's the point. What's your immediate thought? Imagine being on the receiving end of that thought, once, twice, for years. Good god, that must be mentally and emotionally exhausting. 

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umsami,

I read your original post this morning. I was really glad it hadn't been deleted, as I really wanted to respond from a computer.

 

I haven't read all the comments, so maybe another already said what I wanted to. There is so much I'd like to say. But I just want to address one aspect of this. Where I live (rural, midwest) there are no other organized religions aside from Christianity. ESPECIALLY in the older generations here there is a disdain towards Muslims, Gay/Lesbians, and Mexicans. It really makes me sad. And it makes me very glad that I grew up in a city and have lived in other cities (towards the gulf). I'm sorry, truly, that you feel the need to defend your lifestyle on these boards.

Another poster said there's no point to repeating yourself over and over. I would disagree. You may not change the minds of anyone here that is outspoken against you or your faith. But there are many that read these boards that don't comment.

There are people here that "see" you. They see your kindness towards them and others (you were such an encouragement to me on my other thread). They see your dedication to your kids and your family. They see your struggles AND your successes. They see you as a person that maybe that begins to change their mind towards Islam. Even when you aren't defending your faith you are winning people over by being you. Don't stop. Be you.

 

I had more to say, but I deleted it. It was OT. Don't stop defending your faith. And realize that you (collective you- there are other Muslims here) ARE changing how people view Islam by being awesome. Don't leave the boards. Stay.

 

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I don't buy into the No Scotsman Fallacy regardless of where its used, and a Muslim terrorist is no less Muslim in my eyes than a Christian terrorist is Christian in my eyes. But funny how "Christian" and "terrorist" are two words that are seldom used together, whereas "Muslim" and "terrorist" are so commonly placed together that people routinely feel the need to offer reminders that the two are not synonymous. 

 

In my opinion, "attacks" is often code word for "this hits close to home for me," or "I'm uncomfortable with the direction of this conversation." I think that because the people who accuse me of attacking only ever do so when I touch on something that is important to them. I think the alternative must be conversation with the goal that no one is made to feel uncomfortable. Well, that's rather impractical where ideas are routinely challenged in some way, don't you think?

 

You have touched on something important to me-common decency. I can certainly argue a point and even vehemently disagree with someone else's point of view without making fun of his or her beliefs. I would hope that making other feel uncomfortable is not your main goal when you respond to posts.

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I don't think anyone should feel obligated to respect another person's religious beliefs.  Not all religious beliefs are worthy of respect.  Nor do I find lack of respect for certain beliefs to be intolerant.  Two different issues.  People have every right to believe in YEC, or wifely submission, or covering women from head to foot, but I do not need to respect those beliefs.  Tolerate, yes; respect, no.

 

There is a big difference in respecting a person's beliefs, which, I agree, may not be respect-worthy in my eyes, and in being disresectful to the person as a human being. One of the first things I tried to teach my daughter was not to make fun of other people for any reason.

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Not all beliefs are worthy of equal consideration. Would we take someone seriously if they insisted the sun revolved around the earth despite evidence to the contrary?

 

But there is a different in these.  The earth revolving around the sun is seen by all and agreed to by all - at least all who have the technology to see it.  Some remote people groups might be outside the box.

 

When one truly looks at YEC, there are explanations for how things could have occurred in a shorter period of time.  Part of this is via the Creator's design (starting with adults and starlight, etc) and that part is taken on faith much as any other part of religion is.  Part of it is seeing catastrophism rather than uniformitarionism as the way our world ended up as it did.  There are good modern examples that can support this position.

 

Since no one was there with film, we DON'T know which happened.  If one doesn't believe in a Creator, then case closed.  It HAD to take a long time as there would be no other option.  If one does believe in a Creator, then there are many more options that could have happened.

 

This is why I can go either way.  To me, the only one I DON'T believe is evolution/long ages without a Creator.  The odds are just way too long for me to think it could have happened.  Nonetheless, I respect those who disagree and feel no need to change their minds on the issue.  I don't feel they are less intelligent or should be belittled or chased off the board by incessant harassment or anything similar.

 

 

Catwoman, are you seriously saying that you respect the beliefs of people who believe that the sun goes around the earth, or that the earth is flat, or that Jesus spoke English (sadly, those people do exist, I've spoken to some)?

 

Do you also respect the beliefs of people who think Elvis is still alive, or that there was no Holocaust, or that you will get a cramp if you go swimming less than one hour after lunch, or that the moon landing was faked? Or is it only religious beliefs that you respect?

 

There are people I know who have many different beliefs that I respect.  If they want discussion, then we can have discussion.  If not, how does it hurt me (or the world) for them to believe as they do?  I know some who believe broccoli should be extinct...

 

Tolerance is not the same as expecting everyone needs to believe as oneself.  It's not even close.

 

And quite honestly, it's raising my hackles that a couple of posters feel such a sense of superiority that they are chasing folks off the Hive.  Those folks are rapidly losing my respect.

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You have touched on something important to me-common decency. I can certainly argue a point and even vehemently disagree with someone else's point of view without making fun of his or her beliefs. I would hope that making other feel uncomfortable is not your main goal when you respond to posts.

 

It is never my main, or even minor goal when responding to posts. 

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