The Choice: Big fish, little pond? Little fish, big pond?

[Jen in NY]

Your thoughts? Experiences?

 

 

[Laura Corin]

There's also pond within pond.  Calvin's college is only 500 students, but it's within a much larger university.  He can stay within his small pond, or swim out, as he wishes.  Husband went to Plan II at UT Austin, which I think had a similar feel.

[FaithManor]

For dd, she was the little fish in the big pond in terms of "numbers" at U of MI. But, as a chemistry major - there aren't a plethora of those students - she was the big kahuna in the water puddle, LOL. So even though some schools are really large, sometimes their body of water is made up of many smaller bodies. Fit is such a unique thing which is why I recommend trying really hard to do college visits, interviews, and research before making that final decision.

 

Eldest boy kind of prefers the big pond as well. He's a social butterfly and so a large student body, even larger classroom sizes and student to professor ratios just do not bother him. The more the merrier as far as he is concerned, LOL. That said, I think his pond, journalism, is not all that big in the grand picture.

 

 

 

 

[justasque]

Depends on who else is in the pond.  Enough same-size fish in your sub-pond (puddle?) to create intellectual community and allow instruction at the level of your fish.  

[Jenny in Florida]

My son chose to be a medium-sized fish in a small-to-medium pond.

 

As a performer, he knew he felt very strongly that he wanted lots of opportunities to perform. At a number of the larger and more prestigious schools and/or programs he visited, it was clear that he could expect to spend the first couple of years waiting for a chance to be cast in any mainstage productions. He loves to perform and knew that wasn't for him.

 

Socially, he also likes to feel very connected. So, he knew he wanted a small, nurturing space.

 

He ended up falling in love with a medium-sized, private university that has small but solid departments in dance and musical theatre. In his freshman year, he's been cast in three productions and is a member of two performance ensembles, each of which will do two full concerts. He's had featured parts and solos in most of the shows. All of the events have been well attended. We often arrive an hour before curtain just to make sure we can get seats. He gets lots of personal attention in his classes, and he has support from the faculty for a student ensemble he's starting.

 

The campus itself is large enough not to feel claustrophobic but small enough to feel homey. 

 

He's very happy there, and we all feel confident he made the right choice.

 

He has a good friend who is also looking at a performance-oriented major and has applied to much larger, more selective schools and auditioned for more competitive programs. He's done well in the "admissions game" so far and been accepted to some prestigious universities. I'm excited for him and am looking forward to having a chance to follow his journey.

 

 

[plansrme]

I am a proponent of the Medium Pond Theory of Undergraduate Education; i.e., that if you are in at least a Medium Pond, you can go from there to anywhere, including a Big Pond Graduate School or Big Pond Employer.  If you can afford a Big Pond for undergrad, fine; but if you are full pay at the Big Ponds and that is even slightly uncomfortable, save your money and focus on Medium Ponds.

 

If one is pursuing graduate school, my experience and observation is that it is important to attend a Big Pond for grad school but that you can get into said Big Pond from a Medium Pond without too much trouble.  

 

I would avoid Small Ponds, i.e., those at which her stats would put her at the super-tippy-top.

 

I am referring not to physical size but to academic quality and reputation.  My daughter has potentially Big Pond (Ivies, etc.) stats; Medium Ponds are Georgia Tech (and I am going to have to use a crowbar to get her out of there), Colorado School of Mines, U of Arizona, UNC-CH, etc.  There also are second-tier Medium Ponds she could attend cheaply or for free, but for her, there's not a compelling reason to look at that tier.  I include Auburn (it breaks my heart to refer to Auburn as second-tier anything, when they're clearly top-tier in my heart), UGa, etc., in that second tier.  For her combination of stats, interests and finances, there is no reason to delve into that tier.  But I still consider them Medium Ponds and include them in my Medium Pond Theory of Undergraduate Education.

[kiana]

I think it also depends somewhat on how big and how little. If you're a shark in a mud puddle, it's probably going to be really stifling. 

[Teachin'Mine]

It all depends on the student.  There's also two ways of looking at the size of the pond and the fish.  One is the physical size of the student body and the other is the academic strength of the student and the campus as a whole.  Both should be taken into account as far as fit goes, but like everything related to fit it really is different for each student.  It's possible to be a big fish in a big pond just as it's possible to end up a small fish in a small pond.   And as has been said, it's also possible to find smaller swimming ponds within lakes.  The student needs to visit the schools and spend as much time there as possible to get a feel for the fit.  There are pros and cons to each scenario.

[creekland]

My guys just knew what size appealed to them with visits.  Oldest and youngest wanted smaller and thrived (or are thriving) there, albeit with a couple of bumps to get started with youngest.  We just had a heart to heart talk yesterday and he loves his college now (phew!).  Oldest had no problem getting a job he likes that uses his degree.

 

Middle loved medium sized and is thriving there.  He does have more opportunities - and more competition, but thrives on it and is a big fish.  I've no doubt he will do well wherever he goes at this point.  His medium school has been a big asset for him.

 

None of mine wanted a large school, but both hubby and I loved it at ours.

 

I don't think there is one "right" answer.

[regentrude]

Let's first define what you mean by "big/little pond".

 

Are you talking about the actual size of the institution and the related offerings in opportunities?

Or are you talking about the student's academic level in relationship to the institution's academic level?

 

These are two very different things, and it seems from the answers that different people talk about different things here.

 

ETA: If we are talking about academic level: all external factors (like money) aside, a lot depends on the student's personality. Some perform great under pressure and need to challenged to the limit to develop fully, whereas for others, the transition from big fish in (academically) small pond to medium fish among bigger fish can be very difficult emotionally.

Generally, however, I think too big fish in too small a pond is detrimental because it prevents growth.

[Jen in NY]

Let's first define what you mean by "big/little pond".

 

Are you talking about the actual size of the institution and the related offerings in opportunities?

Or are you talking about the student's academic level in relationship to the institution's academic level?

 

These are two very different things, and it seems from the answers that different people talk about different things here.

 

ETA: If we are talking about academic level: all external factors (like money) aside, a lot depends on the student's personality. Some perform great under pressure and need to challenged to the limit to develop fully, whereas for others, the transition from big fish in (academically) small pond to medium fish among bigger fish can be very difficult emotionally.

Generally, however, I think too big fish in too small a pond is detrimental because it prevents growth.

 

This, mostly. I am thinking specifically of Huge U vs. a place like Hometown U or Teeny Tiny Private U. In truth, I think all three will be challenging. She's going for engineering... right now has a developing interest in materials science.

 

Large, well known U. affordable for us. Very. Lots of opportunities... large population... very high achieving students. It can be a challenge emotionally for some kids to swim in this large pond. I am looking through already tinted glasses. This is part of going to college... learning to use what you've got to deal with what comes at you... no matter where you end up. But.... it is definitely a unique situation.

 

Hometown U. Much smaller. Also rigorous. Here. here. Here. No info on the money yet, but there's a chance it will be slightly more expensive than that other place. (a few thousand a year, at least.)

 

Private U: Teeny Tiny program. Will cost a Lot more money. Lots of hand-holding. Admitted to the honors program, so research opportunities and intense mentoring right off the bat. Did I say Teeny tiny? Going by stats, not as competitive. But I don't believe stats = fit. :) Polar opposite of Huge U.

 

I am having a hard time weighing the options.

 

Deleted some identifying info - Thanks.

 

I know you all can't help her make this decision... I can't even help her!! Just thinking out loud. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[8filltheheart]

Depends on how much the pond costs. (LOL)

:lol:  Yep.  People like my brother who install pools and cabanas which cost more than our house can purchase "the lakefront with a view" school.  Some of us are thrilled with the pond that isn't a puddle.   ;)

 

I have a family member who went to a university ranked something like 80 regionally and went to Johns Hopkins for grad school.  Being a super huge fish in her tiny pond didn't hurt her.  

[creekland]

Let's first define what you mean by "big/little pond".

 

Are you talking about the actual size of the institution and the related offerings in opportunities?

Or are you talking about the student's academic level in relationship to the institution's academic level?

 

These are two very different things, and it seems from the answers that different people talk about different things here.

 

ETA: If we are talking about academic level: all external factors (like money) aside, a lot depends on the student's personality. Some perform great under pressure and need to challenged to the limit to develop fully, whereas for others, the transition from big fish in (academically) small pond to medium fish among bigger fish can be very difficult emotionally.

Generally, however, I think too big fish in too small a pond is detrimental because it prevents growth.

 

True.  If considering academics, all of mine were in the top 25% at their respective schools and I wouldn't change that.  However, they weren't in the top 2% and I wouldn't change that either.  (Middle son might have been close to top 2% I suppose, but that'd have been true at most schools.)

 

I've seen students get very underwhelmed at schools that are too easy for them and wonder what college is all about.  Some lower level schools have decent opportunities.  Some do not.  Looking into it all is essential.

 

I've also seen students come home discouraged when overmatched.

 

I feel badly for both.

 

There hasn't been a situation where I've seen a student happy about high debt in hindsight (high = anything upper 5 digits or more).

[Laura Corin]

So, to clarify: Calvin is an academic small fish in a highly academic small pond within a highly academic larger lake.  It suits him down to the ground.  In institution size terms, he's a big fish in a small pond in a much larger lake.

 

Husband was a big fish in a fairly academic small pond, surrounded by a less academic very large lake.  This worked very well for him too.

 

I made the mistake of doing a joint degree in a not very academic institution.  One subject was very high level in a sought-after department; the other not at all.  I would have been better off (more able to find peers and mentors) if I had been in an overall more academic institution.

[creekland]

If Clarkson would cost a lot more money, I'd skip it.  There's nothing like paying more for a less respected program... 

 

I'll have to bow out between the other two as I might be a little bit biased.  ;)

[FaithManor]

I agree with Creekland. I wouldn't pay more for less reputation unless it was a niche field in which the program itself is a stand out amongst grad schools or employers. There are few of those types of programs around. For instance, NMU is a regional ranked, not highly reputed school, except that their biology department is amazing and everyone knows it so their biology grads get into great grad schools and research opportunities. They used to be accredited in journalism - another niche field - but we found out after spending the money to visit - that they had discontinued the program....grrr...it was a recent loss, and they were reorganizing and revamping their English department, but were not advertising that to prospective college students which was really annoying since ds indicated on his application that he was going to dual major in creative writing and journalism.

 

As a general rule though, I am no fan of paying more for less.

[Caroline]

Materials science tends to be a small pond within any other size pond, if we are talking number of students. Nothing like ME, BME, EE, CE...

[G5052]

It's really going to depend on the kid.  I have one for whom a big pond wouldn't work for so many reasons.  The other one I think would probably adapt to either.

 

I did both.  I started at a medium-sized pond.  I didn't like big classes, but was able to get some in the honors program that were smaller.  That said the number of choices there was a big plus.  Then I went to a small pond.  I liked the class size there, but it was complicated getting my classes lined up at times because some were offered only every other year and only in a certain semester.

 

We're running into a little of the small pond downside with my oldest.  As we prepare to register, the time slots and availability of certain classes makes registering early a must.  And certain classes aren't at all available there that are going to have to be taken online and transferred in.  

[Teachin'Mine]

I'd suggest she contact admissions and start arranging overnight visits at all three.  That will help her decide. I doubt that UR's aid will be even close to Cornell, but I don't know this from personal experience, just that one meets 100% aid, and the other doesn't. It probably won't cost so much more that it would put it out of the running though.  UR has the best access to a city, if that's important to her.   As she'll be in engineering, I'd also have her look at the ratio of men to women in her department and take a look at the professors as well.  Some are perfectly comfortable being one of only a few women, and others prefer a more balanced ratio.   I have no idea how the three would compare on that basis.  I agree with Creekland that I wouldn't lean towards Clarkson, but it might be a good fit with all the mentoring and opportunities.  She needs to figure out that part. 

[FaithManor]

It's really going to depend on the kid.  I have one for whom a big pond wouldn't work for so many reasons.  The other one I think would probably adapt to either.

 

I did both.  I started at a medium-sized pond.  I didn't like big classes, but was able to get some in the honors program that were smaller.  That said the number of choices there was a big plus.  Then I went to a small pond.  I liked the class size there, but it was complicated getting my classes lined up at times because some were offered only every other year and only in a certain semester.

 

We're running into a little of the small pond downside with my oldest.  As we prepare to register, the time slots and availability of certain classes makes registering early a must.  And certain classes aren't at all available there that are going to have to be taken online and transferred in.  

Small pond is a problem in terms of scheduling. It is one of the main reasons ds is headed to U of MI instead of Alma. If he has another surgery, U of MI can accommodate him so much better in terms of scheduling. Lots of late afternoon and evening choices, options for making up work, which will make scheduling physical therapy much better. Alma had classes that were offered only one time slot the entire semester, some of them at times we knew would not work with physical therapy, and on top of being a small pond in this regard was also one that had a much harder time accommodating his disability. When I say that wheelchair ramps were not attended to all winter, I am not exaggerating. He never would have made it into several of the buildings without his younger brothers and dh ramming his wheelchair through the mess. Additionally, they have extremely limited parking, and not enough handicap spots by any stretch. We went there five times, different days of the week and different times and were never able to park in handicap parking, sometimes not being able to park even within a block of the building he needed access to so for our last visit we called ahead because there had been another big snow. We asked for a reserved parking space and for the wheelchair ramp for that building to be shoveled. They said, "No problem." We arrived 26 hours later and there was no parking, and the ramp was impassable. We looked for help and couldn't find any.

 

We love the school, but cannot imagine ds managing that after a surgery. Meanwhile, at both main campus and the extension campus he will be attending, U of MI maintenance and snow removal is on top of things. Sidewalks were always shoveled, salted, wheelchair ramps were given particular attention, and there was plenty of parking. Since he is considered permanently disabled though ambulatory, he is eligible for an assigned parking spot if he would like one. Add to that the lower cost on top of better scheduling options, and in his case, big pond was without a doubt, the better way to go. During one group activity, several students whom he had just met, all took turns pushing his wheelchair around or walked with him when he was on crutches. Really, really friendly and helpful. He felt very included and welcomed.

 

It's all so individual. Fit, fit, fit, fit, fit.....

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think it depends on the individual person.  What sort of arrangement will make them thrive. 

 

For me it was being somewhere in the middle.  Not that I actually had many options, but I ended up in a situation where it was in the middle.  I had a chance to strive to be a bigger fish without feeling completely overwhelmed at being a plankton. 

 

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

We have a similar dilemma. :bigear:

[FaithManor]

Sparkly, I love your use of the word plankton!! :D

 

My youngest would love to go to MIT, and he would probably have the stats and resume to get in, but he's a shy, nerdy, non-competitive kid, and I am sure he'd look like plankton to the first cod that came along. No thanks! It would be best for him to swim in a safer harbor.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sparkly, I love your use of the word plankton!! :D

 

My youngest would love to go to MIT, and he would probably have the stats and resume to get in, but he's a shy, nerdy, non-competitive kid, and I am sure he'd look like plankton to the first cod that came along. No thanks! It would be best for him to swim in a safer harbor.

 

That's all my son talks about.  My kid is not shy, but he is very introverted.  He couldn't be bothered with some people sometimes.  Not sure if it would be the best place for him.

 

And oh there is the not so little fact that he has a better chance of being struck by lightening than being accepted there. 

 

To some extent I regret taking him to the Spark thing.  On the one hand it was a chance to see what a college looks like.  It was another chance to see he's a little fish (although he still thinks he is a pretty big fish).  But ohhhh.  I suppose nothing wrong with shooting for something big because it isn't like the effort won't lead to SOMETHING.  KWIM?

 

I'm a wreck over all of this stuff. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Maybe you already saw this article, but it talks about this:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-how-to-survive-the-college-admissions-madness.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region%C2%AEion%3Dc-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=1

[FaithManor]

Chocolate Sparkly. Chocolate and a lot of it. I think we homeschooling moms really internalize this stuff in the way may PS parents don't. The locals here are completely uninvolved with the process. Wherever their kids land, they land. We don't have too many that are worried about it at all, and they aren't going to put a dime into the education either so if their kid lands somewhere with little debt, middle debt, enough student loan debt to sink a small country, or whatever, it is of no consequence. When we talk about college admission's, merit aid, FAFSA, you name it with others, they kind of look at us like our heads are spinning 360 a warp speed, LOL!

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Chocolate Sparkly. Chocolate and a lot of it. I think we homeschooling moms really internalize this stuff in the way may PS parents don't. The locals here are completely uninvolved with the process. Wherever their kids land, they land. We don't have too many that are worried about it at all, and they aren't going to put a dime into the education either so if their kid lands somewhere with little debt, middle debt, enough student loan debt to sink a small country, or whatever, it is of no consequence. When we talk about college admission's, merit aid, FAFSA, you name it with others, they kind of look at us like our heads are spinning 360 a warp speed, LOL!

 

Well yeah I guess we have to also be the guidance department too.  Although my guidance counselor was pretty lousy and useless. 

 

I do hear other parents talking a bit about it, but mostly just "oh my kid got into blah blah school".  I don't know how many hairs they lost in the process.  They don't say.  LOL 

[Kathy in Richmond]

Jen, your daughter has some terrific choices!

 

I was once in your daughter's shoes, and ended up choosing UR over Cornell & other higher-ranked schools for chemical engineering and math. In my case, the financial aid (combo of merit and need based) was actually better at UR than at Cornell.

 

Even though I was a bit hesitant going in, I ended up loving UR.

 

Pros for UR: small class sizes, profs knew & cared about us, rigorous classes in engineering, & even more choices in math & science (where the honors courses used books such as Apostol's Calculus), lots of lab time & good facilities, lots of talks by people in the industry & field trips to help us find areas of interest. I had the opportunity to do publishable research with an engineering prof, who also helped me secure really fun & useful summer positions at places like CMU & Xerox.  Lots of chances for great part time jobs, too, mostly grading & TA'ing in math and chem.

 

Cons for UR: although I had a core group of friends, I sometimes wished for more academically minded classmates. Many of them asked to copy my homework, etc. Note: this wasn't in my engineering group, but rather in the first two years of large introductory chem & physics sequences.

 

It's difficult to compare with Cornell, since that was the road I didn't choose. I did visit and interview with a local alumnus back then, and just felt more at home with UR. I was a small town & rather sheltered girl, and Cornell just didn't resonate with me then.

 

Good luck to your dd!

 

My youngest would love to go to MIT, and he would probably have the stats and resume to get in, but he's a shy, nerdy, non-competitive kid, and I am sure he'd look like plankton to the first cod that came along. No thanks! It would be best for him to swim in a safer harbor.

 

That's all my son talks about.  My kid is not shy, but he is very introverted.  He couldn't be bothered with some people sometimes.  Not sure if it would be the best place for him.

 

My VERY introverted, kind, nerdy, & totally non- competitive son *thrived* at MIT, where he found *many* kids just like himself. The 'competition' there is most definitely student vs. curriculum, not student vs. student. The atmosphere is VERY collaborative.  :)

[Jen in NY]

 

I do hear other parents talking a bit about it, but mostly just "oh my kid got into blah blah school".  I don't know how many hairs they lost in the process.  They don't say.  LOL 

 

So many hairs. I am practically bald now.

 

Chocolate Sparkly. Chocolate and a lot of it.

 

Yes. This. :)

 

 

Seriously though... deep down I know that these are good 'problems' to have. I just want everyone to be happy, all the time. It may or may not be a problem for me. :)

[FaithManor]

Well yeah I guess we have to also be the guidance department too.  Although my guidance counselor was pretty lousy and useless. 

 

I do hear other parents talking a bit about it, but mostly just "oh my kid got into blah blah school".  I don't know how many hairs they lost in the process.  They don't say.  LOL 

:D That's because they are now taking rogaine. It's a difficult thing to admit. ;)

[SparklyUnicorn]

:D That's because they are now taking rogaine. It's a difficult thing to admit. ;)

 

LOL

 

We are a hairy bunch so I have some hair to spare.

[Laura Corin]

That's all my son talks about.  My kid is not shy, but he is very introverted.  He couldn't be bothered with some people sometimes.  Not sure if it would be the best place for him.

 

 

On the other hand: sometimes the place makes the person.  Calvin has always been introverted, with few friends and not much social life.  Since being at university, he has become highly social, has volunteered for everything (acting, helping to run an arts festival, college choir, two jazz bands, poetry society, peer-to-peer counselling) as well as spending lots and lots of time with other people.  He just needed to find his crew.

[SparklyUnicorn]

On the other hand: sometimes the place makes the person.  Calvin has always been introverted, with few friends and not much social life.  Since being at university, he has become highly social, has volunteered for everything (acting, helping to run an arts festival, college choir, two jazz bands, poetry society, peer-to-peer counselling) as well as spending lots and lots of time with other people.  He just needed to find his crew.

 

Makes sense.  He has yet to find a situation where he feels he's with peers.  He tolerates the stuff I sign him up for.  He often complains the other kids don't care and just goof off.  He claims nobody he meets is interested in the same things.  I feel bad for him.  Except for on-line people he hasn't clicked with too many people. 

[Laura Corin]

Makes sense.  He has yet to find a situation where he feels he's with peers.  He tolerates the stuff I sign him up for.  He often complains the other kids don't care and just goof off.  He claims nobody he meets is interested in the same things.  I feel bad for him.  Except for on-line people he hasn't clicked with too many people. 

 

That sounds very familiar.  Even at school (500 pupils from age 5 to 18) there were not enough 'people like him' (whatever than means).  But then 500 'people like him' all got into the same college.  He's having a ball, to the extent that he needs to study all the way through his Easter holidays to catch up on work....

[Caroline]

On the other hand: sometimes the place makes the person.  Calvin has always been introverted, with few friends and not much social life.  Since being at university, he has become highly social, has volunteered for everything (acting, helping to run an arts festival, college choir, two jazz bands, poetry society, peer-to-peer counselling) as well as spending lots and lots of time with other people.  He just needed to find his crew.

 

I have always said my oldest was an old soul. When he got to college, he found his crew. I teach at the high school from which he graduated, and his teachers agree. He was ready to be at Georgia Tech long before he got there. I should have been more of an advocate for him like plansrme did for her daughter.

[creekland]

I doubt that UR's aid will be even close to Cornell, but I don't know this from personal experience, just that one meets 100% aid, and the other doesn't.  

 

URoc is pretty darn close to 100% overall and has been that way for us specifically.  They provided the best package overall for my guy though a couple of other schools came within 2K.

[plansrme]

I have always said my oldest was an old soul. When he got to college, he found his crew. I teach at the high school from which he graduated, and his teachers agree. He was ready to be at Georgia Tech long before he got there. I should have been more of an advocate for him like plansrme did for her daughter.

 

Advocate/parent-from-hell.  Such a fine line.  

[AK_Mom4]

Oldest DS went small fish in small, exclusive pond (USAFA).  Then he chose a major with few students (astro) and ended up being a big fish in his puddle.

 

Oldest DD chose small fish in huge pond (30,000+ students), but like her brother chose a smaller, exclusive major (music) and has built her own fish tank.

 

DD19 is a medium fish in a medium sized pond (11,000+).  We will have to see how this plays out, but it seems OK so far.