s/o The Magic of Tidying

[Lisbeth]

So, I am reading the book now, and I might have a girl crush on Marie Kondo. That is all. 😊

[Guest]

Ha!

 

Not I!! I like her ideas and she is motivational but I can't imagine having her over for dinner. She's faint at the number of toys we own.

[TammyS]

I was watching her on Youtube, giving a talk (it was translated).  I kept wondering why she sounds like a 12 year old girl.  Her voice is very high and sometimes giggly sounding.  So different from the philosophical tone in the book.

[Guest]

I was watching her on Youtube, giving a talk (it was translated). I kept wondering why she sounds like a 12 year old girl. Her voice is very high and sometimes giggly sounding. So different from the philosophical tone in the book.

Yes, I'm curious how old she is. I assumed from her book that she is in her 40's but she looks 12.

[AMJ]

Yes, I'm curious how old she is. I assumed from her book that she is in her 40's but she looks 12.

 

Interesting.  Having been through my 40's I assumed she was quite young, and was a bit surprised at how long she claims to have been doing this for a living.  She makes some good points and hearing her point of view can freshen one's own outlook on things, but much of how she says what she says comes across as lacking in much life experience, at least from my perspective.  I suspect she will not only change her tune a bit on some of her particulars when/if she ever encounters certain life matters, but will also mellow her phrasing as she gains more insight into those who have already gone through various life stages.

[hornblower]

She's 30

 

http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/02/marie-kondo-room-purge.html

 

The style of speaking is not uncommon in her culture from my exp with Japanese women (worked at border for years and we have lots of travellers from there).

[Slache]

The style of speaking is not uncommon in her culture from my exp with Japanese women (worked at border for years and we have lots of travellers from there).

Yep. :)

[MiMi 4under3]

I recently read her book and used her technique to streamline my closet. I was able to toss over 80 items that didn't spark joy - and I had considered myself to be a ruthless decluterer before I read the book! 

 

Of course she will change as she gains life experience, we all do.

 

But the basis of her book, to keep only what sparks joy, was a revelation to me. When cleaning, I've always looked for things I didn't 'need' or 'want'. Things I wanted to 'get rid of' or donate. But she changes your whole mindset (if you buy into it, lol) to view things completely opposite. Look for things you love and want to keep, toss the rest. 

 

Yesterday, I accompanied my sister to a clothing store because she needed dressy clothes for a new job. Just for fun I tried on some spring dresses. There were 3 that I really loved and normally would have bought because I 'loved' them. They were the right price, the right fit, the right color... etc. But they didn't spark joy so I put them back! 

 

 

I heart Marie Kondo.  :001_tt1:

 

 

 

 

[hornblower]

“Have nothing in your house that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful."  William Morris, 1880

it's not much different, is it? The beautiful, useful things spark joy...

[Guest]

I struggle with the "sparks joy".  Maybe I'm just not naturally joyful??  I can see that a shirt fits and I like it just fine but feel no joy, not anything close.  If I only kept what gave me a sense of joy, I'd get arrested!  

[MiMi 4under3]

I struggle with the "sparks joy".  Maybe I'm just not naturally joyful??  I can see that a shirt fits and I like it just fine but feel no joy, not anything close.  If I only kept what gave me a sense of joy, I'd get arrested!  

 

Is this in a general sense or are you actually doing the technique of handling each item?

[albeto.]

I struggle with the "sparks joy".  Maybe I'm just not naturally joyful??  I can see that a shirt fits and I like it just fine but feel no joy, not anything close.  If I only kept what gave me a sense of joy, I'd get arrested!  

 

I think it's okay to define "sparks joy" for you. I don't find a lot of "joy" being sparked around my life either, but the takeaway point I get is to not feel guilty for getting rid of Something That May Or May Not Be Useful To Me Or Someone I May Know Or Meet Now, Soon, Or In The Future. If you don't enjoy having it, don't sweat giving it away to someone who will. 

 

I also adore the idea of thanking things! omg, that's so freaking cute! And surprisingly cathartic for me. I don't care for the animist woo, but the idea of consciously recognizing that I did value something and I don't need to feel guilty for giving it away is unexpectedly freeing. Okay, so I don't actually thank anything, but I do take a moment to realize I did find it valuable, I did or didn't get out of it what I expected, I'm moving on. 

 

Hmm, maybe this says more about me than her.

 

^_^

[*Alyssa*]

I've never heard of her before this post, but I'm putting the book on hold from the library.  I could use some fresh inspiration for how I clean and declutter my home.  I've always used the standard measure of whether or not you've used the item in the last six months.  I like the idea of determining if something sparks joy.  I'm going through a stage in life where I am not happy with any of the colors around me.  Colors I have loved for years are now bothering the daylights out of me and I want a change.  This might be just what I need to help figure out how to make the change in my home to spark joy in me again.

It's the little things in life that make a big difference.  :)

ETA: I just went to put the book on hold and I am #62 in the line-up.  :ohmy:

[Mimm]

I've been hearing about this book everywhere, and I don't get it. If I didn't have anything that sparks joy, I wouldn't have anything, or I'd have all the wrong stuff. For instance, I do not like my computer desk. It's too tall, I dislike the keyboard tray, it's not attractive. However, I use it constantly and can hardly just set my computer on the floor.

 

On the other hand, I have jars of buttons,glitter, beads, colored pencils, markers and on and on laying around. They create clutter, but I love them. I love having a bunch of art supplies. I love that when a creative mood strikes someone around here, we can pull out what we need use them. I need to organize them better but in general, I like having them. So if I had only what sparks joy, I'd have glitter and stickers but almost no furniture (it's possible my spending priorities are out of whack). ;)

 

Am I missing something? The "sparks joy" criteria doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I have things around my house that no one uses, likes or wants. Those are the things I need to get rid of.

[happi duck]

I think "sparks joy" can makes sense for mundane things too. Having a computer desk can spark joy because you don't need to sit on the floor. So the joy comes in the usage not the item, kwim?

[albeto.]

I've never heard of her before this post, but I'm putting the book on hold from the library.  I could use some fresh inspiration for how I clean and declutter my home.  I've always used the standard measure of whether or not you've used the item in the last six months.  I like the idea of determining if something sparks joy.  I'm going through a stage in life where I am not happy with any of the colors around me.  Colors I have loved for years are now bothering the daylights out of me and I want a change.  This might be just what I need to help figure out how to make the change in my home to spark joy in me again.

 

I think the real trick is in knowing how much money in your checking account "sparks joy," and whether or not that money sparks more joy than the thing I really want. Like new colors on the outside of our house. New carpet (the old one sparks something, but it ain't joy). New boots for my bike. 

 

sigh

 

So many things that could spark joy if only my bank account was magic.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

So if I had only what sparks joy, I'd have glitter and stickers but almost no furniture (it's possible my spending priorities are out of whack). ;)

 

I don't have an answer for you, I just wanted to say that this made me :lol:

 

I think the real trick is in knowing how much money in your checking account "sparks joy," and whether or not that money sparks more joy than the thing I really want. Like new colors on the outside of our house. New carpet (the old one sparks something, but it ain't joy). New boots for my bike. 

 

sigh

 

So many things that could spark joy if only my bank account was magic.

 

This was exactly what I was thinking. I have lots of tops that don't spark joy, but I can't afford the ones that do, so I have to make do.

 

I don't think she's talking about acquiring things, though, is she? I think she's specifically referring to getting rid of things you don't need. And maybe that, when you DO need to acquire new things, you should buy with joy in mind, since you'll want to keep that thing for the long-term and not be sick of it or annoyed by it later. Maybe? I don't know, I have the book on hold too. One thing I do know is that I'm not thanking anything as I get rid of it!

[albeto.]

 And maybe that, when you DO need to acquire new things, you should buy with joy in mind, since you'll want to keep that thing for the long-term and not be sick of it or annoyed by it later. Maybe?

 

She's clearly not addressing an ADD audience.

 

:glare:

 

 

I don't know, I have the book on hold too. One thing I do know is that I'm not thanking anything as I get rid of it!

 

*snort*

[Lisbeth]

I am a card-carrying, diagnosed, riddled-with-adhd person, and yep the "sparks joy" thing is an issue. Off of medication, so many things spark joy. One of the hallmarks of the condition is finding meaning and endless possibility in objects. (Oooh, I want all of the shiny things! or, If I get this thing, this other duty/job will improve (a gadget for cooking, a planner, whatever.) But I still love the book, because order, peaceful clean surfaces, hushed, meditative spaces ... SO appealing to me.

 

ETA: The moral of the above for me is: If I attempt this method, it will have to be while I am medicated.

[Mimm]

I am a card-carrying, diagnosed, riddled-with-adhd person, and yep the "sparks joy" thing is an issue. Off of medication, so many things spark joy. One of the hallmarks of the condition is finding meaning and endless possibility in objects. (Oooh, I want all of the shiny things! or, If I get this thing, this other duty/job will improve (a gadget for cooking, a planner, whatever.) But I still love the book, because order, peaceful clean surfaces, hushed, meditative spaces ... SO appealing to me.

 

ETA: The moral of the above for me is: If I attempt this method, it will have to be while I am medicated.

 

This! I vacillate between wanting to BUY all the things and wanting to THROW OUT all the things! I have ADHD but I'm not medicated, and focusing long enough to take on a home reorganization project is also an issue.

[Lisbeth]

This! I vacillate between wanting to BUY all the things and wanting to THROW OUT all the things! I have ADHD but I'm not medicated, and focusing long enough to take on a home reorganization project is also an issue.

Same! I also shift between zero focus and hyperfocus. It makes every day an adventure!

[sunflowerlady]

Yep. Buy all the things!

 

Later on- Get rid of all the things!

 

Even later on- Where is that one thing? Oh yeah, I got rid of it. Why did I do that? I want it now.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

This! I vacillate between wanting to BUY all the things and wanting to THROW OUT all the things! I have ADHD but I'm not medicated, and focusing long enough to take on a home reorganization project is also an issue.

 

Yep, here too. I'm not diagnosed (so not medicated), but every test I take, article I come across, and book I read about it seems like it's written about me *sigh* How interesting to hear it expressed this way. It's exactly how I feel too, even down to the "THIS gadget/tool/service will solve ALL my problems!" At least it's good to know we're not alone. 

[albeto.]

Yep. Buy all the things!

 

Later on- Get rid of all the things!

 

Even later on- Where is that one thing? Oh yeah, I got rid of it. Why did I do that? I want it now.

 

 

YES!

 

:laugh:

[fraidycat]

Yep. Buy all the things!

 

Later on- Get rid of all the things!

 

Even later on- Where is that one thing? Oh yeah, I got rid of it. Why did I do that? I want it now.

This is not limited to ADD. :)

[TammyS]

I've been hearing about this book everywhere, and I don't get it. If I didn't have anything that sparks joy, I wouldn't have anything, or I'd have all the wrong stuff. For instance, I do not like my computer desk. It's too tall, I dislike the keyboard tray, it's not attractive. However, I use it constantly and can hardly just set my computer on the floor.

 

On the other hand, I have jars of buttons,glitter, beads, colored pencils, markers and on and on laying around. They create clutter, but I love them. I love having a bunch of art supplies. I love that when a creative mood strikes someone around here, we can pull out what we need use them. I need to organize them better but in general, I like having them. So if I had only what sparks joy, I'd have glitter and stickers but almost no furniture (it's possible my spending priorities are out of whack). ;)

 

Am I missing something? The "sparks joy" criteria doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I have things around my house that no one uses, likes or wants. Those are the things I need to get rid of.

 

She has a 45 minute talk on Youtube you can watch, and someone asked her about things that you must keep that don't "spark joy", and she said you should try to talk yourself into it finding it joyful.  If it serves you, even though it doesn't spark joy, then getting that need served is a joyful thing.

 

I'm thinking that I will encounter a lot of this when I start, and I think I'm going to make a list of things to replace as $$ comes available with versions that do spark joy, or to fix it up in some way.  I know dishes will be one thing (I swear my kids have chipped every dish in this house).

[TammyS]

This! I vacillate between wanting to BUY all the things and wanting to THROW OUT all the things! I have ADHD but I'm not medicated, and focusing long enough to take on a home reorganization project is also an issue.

 

One of the things that I like about the idea of this is that you get rid of so much stuff that you don't have to work so hard to organize it anymore.  Organizing being what we do to combat the fact that we have too much stuff.

[Momof3littles]

I think it's okay to define "sparks joy" for you. I don't find a lot of "joy" being sparked around my life either, but the takeaway point I get is to not feel guilty for getting rid of Something That May Or May Not Be Useful To Me Or Someone I May Know Or Meet Now, Soon, Or In The Future. If you don't enjoy having it, don't sweat giving it away to someone who will. 

 

I also adore the idea of thanking things! omg, that's so freaking cute! And surprisingly cathartic for me. I don't care for the animist woo, but the idea of consciously recognizing that I did value something and I don't need to feel guilty for giving it away is unexpectedly freeing. Okay, so I don't actually thank anything, but I do take a moment to realize I did find it valuable, I did or didn't get out of it what I expected, I'm moving on. 

 

Hmm, maybe this says more about me than her.

 

^_^

 

ITA.  I get that some people find the "thanking things" and similar advice from the book over the top, etc. When I first read the book, I thought that those parts were a little odd.  But really, as I started implementing some of it, I realized that that moment of gratitude helps relieve some of the guilt and other emotional baggage many of us carry.  It makes it easier to part with things IMO.  SImilarly, her advice about thanking items you don't use or like for having taught you something is also helpful in purging with less guilt. And thanking the things I keep (well, having a moment of gratitude vs. actually thanking them ;) ) encourages me to care for the things I have.  In the last few years I've found myself at a point where I handwash more items, do more "maintenance" on the things I have, and so forth.  Don't look in my messy car though :lol:

[MiMi 4under3]

 

I don't think she's talking about acquiring things, though, is she? I think she's specifically referring to getting rid of things you don't need. And maybe that, when you DO need to acquire new things, you should buy with joy in mind, since you'll want to keep that thing for the long-term and not be sick of it or annoyed by it later. 

 

This.

 

She's referring to things you already own. But the same principle can be applied to future purchases, like you said.

 

That's why I put back the dresses I really loved, I knew they wouldn't be keepers in the long term.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

ITA.  I get that some people find the "thanking things" and similar advice from the book over the top, etc. When I first read the book, I thought that those parts were a little odd.  But really, as I started implementing some of it, I realized that that moment of gratitude helps relieve some of the guilt and other emotional baggage many of us carry.  It makes it easier to part with things IMO.  SImilarly, her advice about thanking items you don't use or like for having taught you something is also helpful in purging with less guilt. And thanking the things I keep (well, having a moment of gratitude vs. actually thanking them ;) ) encourages me to care for the things I have.  In the last few years I've found myself at a point where I handwash more items, do more "maintenance" on the things I have, and so forth.  Don't look in my messy car though :lol:

 

OK, I guess I can see it from a gratitude perspective as opposed the "animism woo" perspective. I don't know. I really need to do a closet purge. We'll see just how how grateful I feel toward all the pants that don't fit me anymore  :glare:

[lewber]

For some reason this book was the one that allowed me to get rid of the pants that no longer fit. They caused me so much guilt every time I saw them. A twinge of anger at myself for gaining the weight back. I think it's this exact thing- not joy, but rather the moments that suck the joy right out of you- that allowed me to finally let go of things I was holding onto.

[Lisbeth]

Yep. Buy all the things!

 

Later on- Get rid of all the things!

 

Even later on- Where is that one thing? Oh yeah, I got rid of it. Why did I do that? I want it now.

Hee! Yes!

[Lisbeth]

Another ADHD thing is to leave projects out, because if you put it away, it is just gone, almost forever, from intentions, plans,memory, etc for it. Maybe this is true for most, but ADHD people are especially prone. I always want to leave new things or projects out, but until I read about that trait, I didn't really realize how much I was doing it and why.

[umsami]

I just got her book from the library.  I'm hoping it makes a difference.

 

What usually happens with me is I'm good at purging...but then I end up rebuying stuff.   Doing the entire room (rather than a gradual approach) has not made a difference for me.

[monstermama]

I just got her book from the library.  I'm hoping it makes a difference.

 

What usually happens with me is I'm good at purging...but then I end up rebuying stuff.   Doing the entire room (rather than a gradual approach) has not made a difference for me.

 

I think that some of the benefit comes from making the whole "holding it in your hands, does it spark joy?" thing a habit.  I wonder, also, if that's why she's so gung ho about doing as much as possible at once, so that you form a new habit.  I haven't gotten very far with tidying, yet, but I have noticed myself buying less because I'm constantly asking myself whenever I pick something up if it sparks joy.

 

Are you rebuying stuff because you got rid of something you really really need, or just buying different stuff?

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Another ADHD thing is to leave projects out, because if you put it away, it is just gone, almost forever, from intentions, plans,memory, etc for it. Maybe this is true for most, but ADHD people are especially prone. I always want to leave new things or projects out, but until I read about that trait, I didn't really realize how much I was doing it and why.

 

Yep. If it's not in my line of vision, it might as well be gone from the house. 

[umsami]

I think that some of the benefit comes from making the whole "holding it in your hands, does it spark joy?" thing a habit.  I wonder, also, if that's why she's so gung ho about doing as much as possible at once, so that you form a new habit.  I haven't gotten very far with tidying, yet, but I have noticed myself buying less because I'm constantly asking myself whenever I pick something up if it sparks joy.

 

Are you rebuying stuff because you got rid of something you really really need, or just buying different stuff?

 

I don't know, actually.  I think part of it is I tend to want to go all minimalist....and the reality is with four little kids, it's just not going to happen.  I also think that because I do have trouble finding clothes that I love....due to being plus sized, short legged, and needing to be very modest....if I get rid of everything that doesn't "spark joy", I'm left with very little....and there's not always that many options to replace it.  If I find something, say a shirt, that works for me, if I can, I'll buy it in two or three different colors--because it's so hard to find things that are long sleeved, not low-cut v-necks, etc.  

[MomtoCandJ]

If I got rid of everything that didn't spark joy, there wouldn't be much left

[Ravin]

I've been hearing about this book everywhere, and I don't get it. If I didn't have anything that sparks joy, I wouldn't have anything, or I'd have all the wrong stuff. For instance, I do not like my computer desk. It's too tall, I dislike the keyboard tray, it's not attractive. However, I use it constantly and can hardly just set my computer on the floor.

 

On the other hand, I have jars of buttons,glitter, beads, colored pencils, markers and on and on laying around. They create clutter, but I love them. I love having a bunch of art supplies. I love that when a creative mood strikes someone around here, we can pull out what we need use them. I need to organize them better but in general, I like having them. So if I had only what sparks joy, I'd have glitter and stickers but almost no furniture (it's possible my spending priorities are out of whack). ;)

 

Am I missing something? The "sparks joy" criteria doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I have things around my house that no one uses, likes or wants. Those are the things I need to get rid of.

If no one uses, likes, or wants something, it likely doesn't spark joy.

 

And I personally see no problem with having very little furniture. We have too much furniture. It sparks frustration, not joy. Of course, so does simply living in this house.

[VaKim]

I found an audio version of the book on youtube.....right after I bought the Kindle version of course, lol.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcim7Cvn-oM

You can return Kindle books for a refund within I think 7 days from purchase. I have done it once, when a book turned out to be pretty pathetic.

[Garga]

I adore that book.  The lady is a little odd at times, being concerned for her poor socks rolling all around in that drawer, but I still like her.

 

I just wish she'd write a book for people who live with others.  I hate the mixer and quesadilla maker on my counter, but my son who loves to cook owns those.  I can't get rid of them because they're not mine.  I suppose she'd say to stick with what I can change because that's all I can do.  

 

Overall, I like the book a lot and would love to live that way.  Love it!  But there are these other people in my house who don't want to live that way.

[nevergiveup]

My bras do not spark joy.

Getting rid of them would not spark joy in others.

[hornblower]

My bras do not spark joy.

Getting rid of them would not spark joy in others.

 

really? Boob containment systems were the one item of clothing I thought was almost guaranteed to spark joy. And esp when they're being removed... ?

 

 

 

[Guest]

My bras do not spark joy.

Getting rid of them would not spark joy in others.

Well, you have your anomalies. Not everything will hold up equally well under the joy-sparking litmus test. However, it remains a pretty good measure for determining whether or not something ought to hang around. Certainly many Americans are having a hard time deciding what is or isn't important in all this junk we are amassing.

[Guest]

I adore that book. The lady is a little odd at times, being concerned for her poor socks rolling all around in that drawer, but I still like her.

 

I just wish she'd write a book for people who live with others. I hate the mixer and quesadilla maker on my counter, but my son who loves to cook owns those. I can't get rid of them because they're not mine. I suppose she'd say to stick with what I can change because that's all I can do.

 

Overall, I like the book a lot and would love to live that way. Love it! But there are these other people in my house who don't want to live that way.

I hear ya. Here's my view on other people's junk: you can only control your own behaviour ultimately. Although I can envision how much better my closet would look if DH would just recycle his giant box of airplane magazines (along with coming to the rational truth that there is no way in heck he will ever consult those ancient mags to learn something pertinant at this point), if ONLY I get rid of my excess boots or sweatshirts or camera equipment, it is still better by half than if neither of us does anything. Because really, he would have a point if he asked why I keep my film SLR. Even I do not know.

 

Also, I have my little areas of delight no matter if my other people don't care about order. My sock drawers are all for me and they look just the way I like. So really, who cares if DH's sock drawer looks like hell and would probably terrify Ms. Kondo? His socks are being strangled by a clip that keeps them paired up! And there are some pairs suffocating in the bottom of the drawer that haven't been brought up for air in years!

 

 

ETA: typo

[TammyS]

I adore that book.  The lady is a little odd at times, being concerned for her poor socks rolling all around in that drawer, but I still like her.

 

I just wish she'd write a book for people who live with others.  I hate the mixer and quesadilla maker on my counter, but my son who loves to cook owns those.  I can't get rid of them because they're not mine.  I suppose she'd say to stick with what I can change because that's all I can do.  

 

Overall, I like the book a lot and would love to live that way.  Love it!  But there are these other people in my house who don't want to live that way.

 

I like the book and find a lot valuable in it, too, but I agree that there is a very naive element when it comes to living with others and running a home.  She doesn't even mention going through kitchen stuff or how to deal with incoming stuff.  Her order to go through things is: clothes, books, documents, misc items, and mementos.  She seems to assign practically everything in the house to the misc category.

 

I also noticed that lot of the people that she helps "get tidy" are single people living in 1 room (presumably in their parents home) and not families.

[*Alyssa*]

I think the real trick is in knowing how much money in your checking account "sparks joy," and whether or not that money sparks more joy than the thing I really want. Like new colors on the outside of our house. New carpet (the old one sparks something, but it ain't joy). New boots for my bike. 

 

sigh

 

So many things that could spark joy if only my bank account was magic.

 

No kidding.  Sigh.

[*Alyssa*]

Every author cannot possibly cater to every person's situation.  You can take what they've written and apply it to your life in a way that works. 

For instance, I guess the author says to thank your stuff, which sounds really odd to me, but the principle behind it is actually quite wonderful.  I recently read that they have scientifically found you can rewire the brain towards happiness by saying aloud three things you are grateful for over a month period.  I believe it.  Of course, again, you can't say that would be true for absolutely everyone, because there are just too many variables out there to consider, but for the average person, I'm sure that is true.

So maybe you won't thank your stuff directly, but you can be grateful for other factors that allowed you to have that thing. Take her idea and make it practical for you.  :001_cool:

I'm looking forward to reading the book, but based on my number in the cue, it's going to be a little while.  I'm patient.  I love books, but I really hate having to take care of them when I'm done.  The library is my friend in being a minimalist, so I'm not buying the book.  ;)

[nevergiveup]

really? Boob containment systems were the one item of clothing I thought was almost guaranteed to spark joy. And esp when they're being removed... ?

 

 

 

My girls like their freedom--unfortunately, floppy little things that they are, it's not a good look and is an embarrassment to the children....

[Ausmumof3]

I adore that book. The lady is a little odd at times, being concerned for her poor socks rolling all around in that drawer, but I still like her.

 

I just wish she'd write a book for people who live with others. I hate the mixer and quesadilla maker on my counter, but my son who loves to cook owns those. I can't get rid of them because they're not mine. I suppose she'd say to stick with what I can change because that's all I can do.

 

Overall, I like the book a lot and would love to live that way. Love it! But there are these other people in my house who don't want to live that way.

I did hear her do an interview where someone questioned her about shared spaces. Basically the guidelines were you can't touch others peoples stuff (not sure how that fitted with her childhood obsession with doing the whole families rooms but hey), but you can define spaces that are theirs, and a reasonable rule might be that it all has to be behind closed doors.