AP or DE Chem without having had an official HS Chem class?

[Ann.without.an.e]

Would you let your child dive into AP or DE Chem if they haven't technically had a basic HS Chem class?  Just thinking it all through ;)

 

thanks

[3in9th]

Yes...depending. There are some Chemistry classes that are basic and do not require HS Chemistry. Check the uni for these. I hope to get my kids in DE Chemistry, but they've had a pretty extensive MS Chemistry program this year, FWIW.

[plansrme]

AP is likely to be harder than Chem 101 or its equivalent at most schools that will permit DE.  That said, my daughter too AP Chem through ChemAdvantage after just reading the Apologia chem book the summer before.  She made an A in the class and a 5 on the exam, but she is an outlier academically.  Most AP Chem classes will require a regular chem course as a prerequisite.  If you are talking DE at a community college, I would actually consider doing their Chem I class first and AP Chem second, if you want the AP class.

[SparklyUnicorn]

If they are highly motivated and capable, why not?

 

 

[chiguirre]

AP is likely to be harder than Chem 101 or its equivalent at most schools that will permit DE. That said, my daughter too AP Chem through ChemAdvantage after just reading the Apologia chem book the summer before. She made an A in the class and a 5 on the exam, but she is an outlier academically. Most AP Chem classes will require a regular chem course as a prerequisite. If you are talking DE at a community college, I would actually consider doing their Chem I class first and AP Chem second, if you want the AP class.

Virtual Homeschool Group offers a chem at your own pace class using Apologia's first or second edition. I am planning to use it to prep and backup Spectrum Chemistry next year. It could help your dd get in the groove before AP or DE chem.

[Joules]

AP Chem would be hard with no background (as would the DE class for scientists and engineers), but if the student goes in prepared for the extra time and work, it's doable.  DE for regular chemistry would be easier.  At our DE U, they list it as the class for nurses and teachers, but that would vary with schools.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ok sorry, but I know what AP chem is, but I have no idea what DE chem is.  What is DE chem?

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ok looking at this again are you talking about Advanced Placement chem? 

[Arcadia]

Ok sorry, but I know what AP chem is, but I have no idea what DE chem is. What is DE chem?

DE - dual enrollment (community college)

[Ann.without.an.e]

Ok looking at this again are you talking about Advanced Placement chem? 

 

 

I am just trying to decide between going with a regular High School Chemistry class, Dual Enrollment General Chem class, or AP Chemistry (probably a stretch for a student who hasn't actually taken a regular HS Chem class but I want to check.  DD is bright and the math would not be too challenging. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am just trying to decide between going with a regular High School Chemistry class, Dual Enrollment General Chem class, or AP Chemistry (probably a stretch for a student who hasn't actually taken a regular HS Chem class but I want to check.  DD is bright and the math would not be too challenging. 

 

Ok I get it now.  I thought that is what you were asking, but then who knows!

 

We are currently using Thinkwell Chemistry.  It's very very challenging for my son, but he is motivated and is willing to do the work.  I have a few high school texts floating around and honestly I don't see massive differences. 

[Handmaiden]

I am just trying to decide between going with a regular High School Chemistry class, Dual Enrollment General Chem class, or AP Chemistry (probably a stretch for a student who hasn't actually taken a regular HS Chem class but I want to check.  DD is bright and the math would not be too challenging. 

 

What are her strengths? Is she a math/science kid or a humanities kid? Or an all-around kid?

 

My nerdy math/science kid is taking online AP Chem after a basic chem course, and he's working very very hard to maintain his A average. It's a tough course.

[Reefgazer]

I assume you are talking about DE in a for-majors chem class.  Unless your child is an outlier in math/science and extremely motivated, no, I would not toss them off that cliff.

[Trilliums]

I would let my child take AP or DE Chemistry if Chem was of special interest to them and they had previous chemistry exposure (such as reading a text book, going through Khan Academy, doing a lot of independent reading on the subject).  My kids took AP Physics without previously taking any physics classes, but they are both interested in the subject.  One son opted for AP Physics over AP Chem (even though he actually has taken honors Chemistry) because he thought he'd enjoy the physics class more.

 

If they do go straight to AP CHem, I would try to allow for some flexibility in the other classes in case the AP Chem takes up a lot of time.

 

GL!

[Ann.without.an.e]

What are her strengths? Is she a math/science kid or a humanities kid? Or an all-around kid?

 

My nerdy math/science kid is taking online AP Chem after a basic chem course, and he's working very very hard to maintain his A average. It's a tough course.

 

 

She's all around good at most things academic.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I assume you are talking about DE in a for-majors chem class.  Unless your child is an outlier in math/science and extremely motivated, no, I would not toss them off that cliff.

 

 

What do you mean by 'for-majors'?  I was considering at DE class at a local 4 year, private university.  It is not a science/math school.  It is introductory chemistry 105 & 106.  They don't have a chemistry class below it.  If that helps.

[In The Great White North]

It also depends on where she is in math.  I vaguely recall some calculus in AP Chem.

[Reefgazer]

In most colleges, there is a for-majors class (heavy on the math and the nitty-gritty of the topic) and a non-majors class (which focuses on the conceptual aspect of chemistry and has less math and less depth).  A non-majors college class should be no problem, but I would think the pace and depth of a majors class would be another thing entirely, unless your child is exceptional in the math-science area.  I would speak to the head of the department to ask about the course you are considering.

What do you mean by 'for-majors'?  I was considering at DE class at a local 4 year, private university.  It is not a science/math school.  It is introductory chemistry 105 & 106.  They don't have a chemistry class below it.  If that helps.

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

It also depends on where she is in math.  I vaguely recall some calculus in AP Chem.

 

 

Since pre-cal algebra is the only prerequisite, I can't imagine that there is calculus.  This is not a STEM college, it is a liberal arts focused school.  Mostly produces education, history, and English majors. 

 

DD is completing pre-cal algebra/trig this year.  She will start calc. next year.

[Dicentra]

No calculus required for AP Chem.  Alg 2 is required.  They will be using natural logarithms for Arrhenuis plots in the kinetics unit but they don't need an extensive understanding to be able to do the work.  They will need to know base 10 logs for the acid/base unit (pH and buffer calculations, etc.).

 

Chemistry is a weird subject (I think Regentrude will back me up on that :D ).  The progression of topics and skills learned isn't nearly as linear as it is in physics.  Students need the appropriate math skills, yes, but they also need the ability to think abstractly.  Basic chemistry can be very hands-on and experienced at the "macro" level but chem at the level of AP and above will deal more with the "micro" level.  Students will also need to be able to make connections between the molecular explanations (at the "micro" level) and what they see happening in the lab (at the "macro" level).  That can be VERY difficult for some students.

 

All this to say that while it is certainly possible for a student to jump into AP Chem without a first chem course, it would be an exceptional student who would be successful.

 

I can't comment as to DE chem - we don't have DE programs here in Canada. :)

[texasmama]

Do you have a CC option for DE?  That would probably be my preference.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Do you have a CC option for DE?  That would probably be my preference.

 

 

Our CC does not have the best reputation for quality.  They want dd to completely change her math sequence, retaking her math with them and dd doesn't prefer that.  I wish she could take it there because it is very convenient to us and the 4 year is a little farther.  A friend's son tried the CC this year and they were extremely unimpressed.  Most classes are online without enough instructor contact and the classes that were on campus were pretty bad.  For example, over half of the kids dropped the chem class before the end, most kids just played on their phones or read non-class material, the prof. stated right up front that she hated teaching, and though she never taught she would just give random tests that weren't necessarily related to the textbook.  My friend's student was very frustrated and even she dropped said class.   

[texasmama]

How discouraging and unfortunate about the CC.

[FaithManor]

 

 

Chemistry is a weird subject (I think Regentrude will back me up on that :D ).  The progression of topics and skills learned isn't nearly as linear as it is in physics.  

But, sniff sniff, I love chemistry! :001_wub:

 

If this were my student, I would enroll in a non-major freshman level chemistry course first and pursue AP or higher level after that.

[FaithManor]

Our CC does not have the best reputation for quality.  They want dd to completely change her math sequence, retaking her math with them and dd doesn't prefer that.  I wish she could take it there because it is very convenient to us and the 4 year is a little farther.  A friend's son tried the CC this year and they were extremely unimpressed.  Most classes are online without enough instructor contact and the classes that were on campus were pretty bad.  For example, over half of the kids dropped the chem class before the end, most kids just played on their phones or read non-class material, the prof. stated right up front that she hated teaching, and though she never taught she would just give random tests that weren't necessarily related to the textbook.  My friend's student was very frustrated and even she dropped said class.   

This would similar to our local one. We do not use it. They offer no math courses except college algebra, no history, no fine arts, and the only science is a psychology class and an introductory level biology course. They have mostly business and computer classes (not programming either, just end user kinds of courses), college writing (and it's not impressive to say the least), and licensing programs like massage therapy and a two year welding program.

 

We have to travel an hour each way to get to a good one, and even our best does not offer calculus, physics, or much in history or literature. Very limited and many classes have a waiting list. We've ended up using online courses from a four year university instead.

[Mom22ns]

If this were my student, I would enroll in a non-major freshman level chemistry course first and pursue AP or higher level after that.

 

This is what I would do as well. If the course at the CC has no prerequisites in Chemistry, only math, then I would go ahead and enroll there. It should be easier than AP and even if it isn't a great class she'll be more prepared for AP than she is now. 

 

That is the way I did chemistry when I was in high school too. I didn't take Chem in high school, then realized I should have. I took Chem 100 de the spring semester of my senior year, then took Majors level Chem when I got to college. I enjoyed the CC class. It was challenging.

 

My dd's experience with our local CC has been that a large number of students rarely show up for class and many dropped the class. However, she has been very challenged and felt the class was good. The students that have stayed have made a reasonable cohort. I would look carefully at the teacher's ratings and see if you can find one that looks decent.

[emzhengjiu]

My daughter is taking General Chemistry (for majors) at our local community college as a dual credit student.  It's a tough class and moves very quickly.  Some background in chemistry as well as strong math skills makes a huge difference.

[Teachin'Mine]

Introductory Chem should be fine for someone who hasn't taken chemistry in high school.  Look at the course description for prerequisites.  It probably doesn't have any except maybe a certain level of math.  I wouldn't recommend going into General Chemistry without some previous exposure as that is intended for science majors, pre-med, etc..  Intro Chem or high school chemistry is usually a prerequisite for that.   As for AP Chemistry, I'm not familiar with it but I believe that it covers only the first semester of a General Chemistry sequence and does that in a year as opposed to a single semester, so that should be doable at the slower pace. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Here is the course description, if this helps :)

 

A two-semester introductory course to familiarize students with the basic principles and calculations of chemistry: chemical formulas and reactions; atomic structure and the periodic table; chemical bonding; gases, liquids, and solutions; thermodynamics; equilibrium; electrochemistry; chemical kinetics. The laboratory introduces basic chemical techniques and the use of standard laboratory equipment (class, three hours; laboratory, three hours per week). Offered every year.

[Dicentra]

But, sniff sniff, I love chemistry! :001_wub:

 

 

:D  So do I, Faith!  Otherwise, I wouldn't be teaching it. ;)  Regentrude and I have had conversations in the past about the non-linear way in which beginning chemistry tends to be taught and how frustrating it can be so that's what I was referring to. :)