CaffeineDiary Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 In an absolutely shocking and completely unexpected development that totally surprises everyone, it turns out that fraternity and sorority systems are, often, hideously racist. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 That is OU, OSU is a different school. I attended OU, IMO it is a very diverse University. I was shocked by the video. It isn't representative of my experiences at OU but it doesn't surprise me that a frat is involved. I am glad they were thrown off campus. The University President made it very clear it was unacceptable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaffeineDiary Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Corrected the thread title, thanks, Slartibartfast. Here's what I think about when I watch that video: -For how many years has that been a chant in that frat? -Think about how many people (now, presumably, all in the Oklahoma legislature...) were singing that song in 2001 and were lucky enough to NOT have it uploaded to YouTube. -Ask yourself how many members of other frats and sororities watched that video whose first thought was "Thank God no one filmed what happened on our bus." I think the point the article made that organizations that are inherently exclusive are more liable to this sort of thing is a good one. And I will be completely honest, my gut says that this sort of behavior is much more the norm than the exception. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Corrected the thread title, thanks, Slartibartfast. Here's what I think about when I watch that video: -For how many years has that been a chant in that frat? -Think about how many people (now, presumably, all in the Oklahoma legislature...) were singing that song in 2001 and were lucky enough to NOT have it uploaded to YouTube. -Ask yourself how many members of other frats and sororities watched that video whose first thought was "Thank God no one filmed what happened on our bus." I think the point the article made that organizations that are inherently exclusive are more liable to this sort of thing is a good one. And I will be completely honest, my gut says that this sort of behavior is much more the norm than the exception. When I was there a frat was drunk, pushing a flag pole back and forth (which was some sort of tradition??) it fell over and killed someone. The frat was disciplined and there was general disgust. Also while I was there the very same frat was drunk and peed and danced around teepees that were on campus for a NA cultural event. The frat was disciplined, there was a protest and general disgust. I think it is a bad system that encourages poor behavior from similarly privileged and ignorant individuals. Oh hey I found an article about flagpole incident http://newsok.com/victims-family-lays-no-blame-in-fatal-ou-flagpole-incident/article/2485650/?page=1 and teepee incident http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2199&dat=19940721&id=TqgyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LecFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6604,6509143 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I went to a small liberal arts school in the deep South. SAE was the frat all the good ol' boys gravitated to. They were known as Same A$$holes Everywhere back then. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrissiK Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Must be something with that group. The chapter of SAE at the university I attended here out West had the reputation as being the worst as far as drinking and general mayhem and poor behaviour were concerned. I think there were several times they were on probation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Here is David Boren's, the University President, statement. http://www.oudaily.com/news/president-david-boren-releases-full-statement-on-sigma-alpha-epsilon/article_02b02ee2-c667-11e4-903d-4fdd71bf61d2.html "To those who have misused their free speech in such a reprehensible way, I have a message for you. You are disgraceful. You have violated all that we sand for. You should not have the privilege of calling yourselves "Sooners". Real Sooners are not racist. Real Sooners are not bigots. Real Sooners believe in equal opportunity. Real Sooners treat all people with respect. Real Sooners love each other take care of each other like family members."Effective immediately, all ties and affiliations between this University and the local SAE chapter are hereby severed. I direct that the house be closed and that members will remove their personal belongings from the house by midnight tomorrow. Those needing to make special arrangements for positions shall contact the Dean of Students. "All of us will redouble our efforts to create the strongest sense of family and community. We vow that we will be an example to the entire country of how to deal with this issue. There must be a zero tolerance for racism everywhere in our nation. President Boren" 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Crews removed the letters from the house today. http://www.oudaily.com/news/ou-facilities-management-employees-remove-sigma-alpha-epsilon-letters-from/article_2d108b44-c696-11e4-871d-7fd0be24bffa.html 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SproutMamaK Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I went to a small liberal arts school in the deep South. SAE was the frat all the good ol' boys gravitated to. They were known as Same A$$holes Everywhere back then. There wasn't a chapter at my university (are there any in Canada?) but when I visited a friend in the States I was warned about this particular group because they were having a party that weekend. In this case they were referred to as "Sexual Assault Expected". 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 That is OU, OSU is a different school. I attended OU, IMO it is a very diverse University. I was shocked by the video. It isn't representative of my experiences at OU but it doesn't surprise me that a frat is involved. I am glad they were thrown off campus. The University President made it very clear it was unacceptable. Really? It was very much representative of my time at OU. I was there in the mid 80's and then to teach in the mid-90's. The racism was open and everywhere. I don't believe for one minute that OU officials are shocked and sorry about the racist crap those idiots spouted on that video. I think they're only sorry that it was outed to the nation, hence tarnishing the reputation of the university. And, Gawd Almighty forbid THAT should be allowed! Hence the strong reaction. My only question is -- where the f*ck was their almighty outrage for the previous 100 years of blatant racism, misogyny and classism? 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Now there is a new video of the house mom repeatedly saying the N word...a few lines from a disgusting song.. The same house mom was interviewed saying she was 'shocked' by the chant on the bus video. She says never heard that song......sure lady. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 No matter how long it's been going on (undoubtedly a long time), I'm glad it's been outed now and hopefully there ARE many others watching and learning. When we were looking at colleges, those with huge Greek presences received negative check marks. We didn't discount them all as we needed some financial safeties, but it certainly wasn't a mark in the plus column for them. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 When I was there a frat was drunk, pushing a flag pole back and forth (which was some sort of tradition??) it fell over and killed someone. The frat was disciplined and there was general disgust. Also while I was there the very same frat was drunk and peed and danced around teepees that were on campus for a NA cultural event. The frat was disciplined, there was a protest and general disgust. Just had to say that it's funny that you and I were there at the same time. I was there from 92-96. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Really? It was very much representative of my time at OU. I was there in the mid 80's and then to teach in the mid-90's. The racism was open and everywhere. My experience with OU was that it was a mix of racist, sexist, good ol' boy types and progressive, inclusive, fair-minded types. I felt like the sexism was especially rampant, but as a white girl, I was probably unaware of a lot of the racism since I wasn't experiencing it. I do remember the teepee incident very clearly, though. And I also remember there being a fuss about how OU wouldn't hire women speakers for their special events, and the university's response was basically an unapologetic "we won't pay women as much as men to speak here, and it isn't our fault they don't want to speak for the peanuts we offer them." Pathetic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Someone posted about sorority and fraternity "basement songs" on Facebook, which makes me wonder what other such chants are still in use and passed on to new initiates and how common this tradition is. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Here is David Boren's, the University President, statement. http://www.oudaily.com/news/president-david-boren-releases-full-statement-on-sigma-alpha-epsilon/article_02b02ee2-c667-11e4-903d-4fdd71bf61d2.html Real Sooners were land thieves. And the original article is not surprising. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaffeineDiary Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 This is the pernicious thing about racism (and, specifically, the white supremacy flavor of racism.) It has this awful twilight-sleep life where it is completely aboveground and public until someone indicates they're offended by it, at which point the exact same people who perpetuate it pretend, like an accidental fart, that it never happened and of course they're not racist, and why do you people insist on talking about race all the time? Why, it's you minorities who are the real racists. I sort of hate the term "gaslighting", but this effect really does feel like some culture-wide version of it. 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise in Florida Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 This is the pernicious thing about racism (and, specifically, the white supremacy flavor of racism.) It has this awful twilight-sleep life where it is completely aboveground and public until someone indicates they're offended by it, at which point the exact same people who perpetuate it pretend, like an accidental fart, that it never happened and of course they're not racist, and why do you people insist on talking about race all the time? Why, it's you minorities who are the real racists. I sort of hate the term "gaslighting", but this effect really does feel like some culture-wide version of it. I needed to do more than just 'like' this. :) Yes... I have heard decent people say shocking things since I moved to the south. It is like they don't even hear themselves, and when you point out something they said they just look at you like you are crazy and of course it doesn't mean anything. The implication is always left that I am the one bringing up racism, sexism, etc. therefore I am the problem. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 This is the pernicious thing about racism (and, specifically, the white supremacy flavor of racism.) It has this awful twilight-sleep life where it is completely aboveground and public until someone indicates they're offended by it, at which point the exact same people who perpetuate it pretend, like an accidental fart, that it never happened and of course they're not racist, and why do you people insist on talking about race all the time? Why, it's you minorities who are the real racists. I sort of hate the term "gaslighting", but this effect really does feel like some culture-wide version of it. Oops, hit the wrong button on my phone. Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 This is the pernicious thing about racism (and, specifically, the white supremacy flavor of racism.) It has this awful twilight-sleep life where it is completely aboveground and public until someone indicates they're offended by it, at which point the exact same people who perpetuate it pretend, like an accidental fart, that it never happened and of course they're not racist, and why do you people insist on talking about race all the time? Why, it's you minorities who are the real racists. I sort of hate the term "gaslighting", but this effect really does feel like some culture-wide version of it. It reminds me of the dynamics in a dysfunctional family. Often if one person in the family gets out or starts to become healthy they become the scapegoat for the family. It seems like this sort of dynamic is being played out on a societal level with issues of racism, sexism, religious intolerance, classism, homophobia and discrimination. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jann in TX Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 DH and I are both OU grads ('87 for me and '89 for him-- he took the scenic route and changed majors a few times). It is sad to see the whole university being slammed for the actions of some (enter not so nice word) students. I firmly believe that the majority of OU students (past, present, future) are not represented by those frat guys. I think you can and WILL find people who are 'bigots' in ANY large population. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 This is all so terribly disturbing. I live in such a bubble: I can't imagine where these people come from...how they can say these things...how they can do these things. Who looks at their children and thinks "I can imagine them chanting vile things and hazing someone to death."? :( 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 This is all so terribly disturbing. I live in such a bubble: I can't imagine where these people come from...how they can say these things...how they can do these things. Who looks at their children and thinks "I can imagine them chanting vile things and hazing someone to death."? :( That apple doesn't fall far. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 This reminds me of the one and only time I had a conversation with our elderly white neighbors. They were very nice. Complimentary of the work we have done on our place....then she said, " I know how this remodeling goes.....we spent years restoring one of the old Victorians in <local town >....it was just beautiful." Then she lowered her voice ( even though we were in my driveway with no one anyone near) and in that syrupy sweet southern voice said, "but the Blacks bought it"....shaking her head in saddness. I can still not believe how stunned I was. I had no words and I think I sort of sputtered......but I dont think I chastised her...I was just too shocked. So yeah...racists are everywhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I think the overall the sense of entitlement that many members of the Greek System display is completely abhorrent. This has been the big news story all winter in my neck of the woods: Treetops Resort: Fraternity Damage Could Top $400,000 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Really? It was very much representative of my time at OU. I was there in the mid 80's and then to teach in the mid-90's. The racism was open and everywhere. I don't believe for one minute that OU officials are shocked and sorry about the racist crap those idiots spouted on that video. I think they're only sorry that it was outed to the nation, hence tarnishing the reputation of the university. And, Gawd Almighty forbid THAT should be allowed! Hence the strong reaction. My only question is -- where the f*ck was their almighty outrage for the previous 100 years of blatant racism, misogyny and classism? Since my siblings and I appear racially ambiguous we tend to confuse people and they don't usually share racist opinions if they have them. I was not remotely interested in frats or attending frat parties and most of the people I knew felt similarly, I tended to gravitate towards more progressive people. Following the teepee incident there were protests and there was a big event with speakers regarding cultural sensitivity at the teepees, I was at those events. Most of my family attended OU and my own kid has considered attending OU, how they react to things like this in the future is pretty important to me. I would NOT allow my kid to attend UT because they seem pretty tolerant towards racist behavior on campus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excelsior! Academy Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 DH and I are both OU grads ('87 for me and '89 for him-- he took the scenic route and changed majors a few times). It is sad to see the whole university being slammed for the actions of some (enter not so nice word) students. I firmly believe that the majority of OU students (past, present, future) are not represented by those frat guys. I think you can and WILL find people who are 'bigots' in ANY large population. Absolutely. My parents were football season pass holders for years and as such I spent oodles of time on the campus. Dh's brother attended there in the late 80's early 90's. This reminds me of the one and only time I had a conversation with our elderly white neighbors. They were very nice. Complimentary of the work we have done on our place....then she said, " I know how this remodeling goes.....we spent years restoring one of the old Victorians in <local town >....it was just beautiful." Then she lowered her voice ( even though we were in my driveway with no one anyone near) and in that syrupy sweet southern voice said, "but the Blacks bought it"....shaking her head in saddness. I can still not believe how stunned I was. I had no words and I think I sort of sputtered......but I dont think I chastised her...I was just too shocked. So yeah...racists are everywhere. Yippers. We are Native American, although dh is the only one that looks like he is. We also are raising children of different ethnicities one being African American. We hosted an event and one of our good friends talked negatively about Native Americans to us. I really don't think she has any idea about our heritage or family background. It is pretty interesting to see people's thoughts behind the scenes when they have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Not surprised but wish I were. Wasn't it just last year that the University of Alabama began admitting black women to its Panhellenic sororities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Since my siblings and I appear racially ambiguous we tend to confuse people and they don't usually share racist opinions if they have them. I was not remotely interested in frats or attending frat parties and most of the people I knew felt similarly, I tended to gravitate towards more progressive people. Following the teepee incident there were protests and there was a big event with speakers regarding cultural sensitivity at the teepees, I was at those events. Most of my family attended OU and my own kid has considered attending OU, how they react to things like this in the future is pretty important to me. I would NOT allow my kid to attend UT because they seem pretty tolerant towards racist behavior on campus. I admit I had rushed one sorority my first year there. One girl was ever so kind as to let me know that I looked "right enough" but with "a sp*c last name wouldn't sit too well with the committee." I suppose it wouldn't have mattered if I'd told her that I don't have any hispanic heritage. Indeed, I wasn't accepted, but it didn't really matter. There was no way I was going to be besties with those girls. I knew others with similar experiences depending on which house they rushed. Naive me had no clue about "how it worked" with certain houses. I spent the rest of my years as a GDI with other GDIs, but the same type of story got repeated every year. It came into even sharper focus when, as a member of faculty, I saw the same things and the lack of response, or even acknowledgment from admin about any of it. The fact that they're saying something about it now... yes, that means something, but it's a bit late and rings a bit hollow to my ear. That's not to say I don't have fond memories of my alma mater, too. I certainly do. But, I would couch any recommendation to attend there with a fair warning that it is a good-ol'-boys bastion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Real Sooners were land thieves. And the original article is not surprising. I am Native American but technically Sooners were people who snuck into the areas where land runs were being held and hid until the time that the landrun began. They were cheaters, they were not "thieves." The people participating in landruns were also not "thieves" they were doing something legally permitted by the government. The land involved was Unassigned Lands. No tribe was on the land when that happened. One cannot call those that participated in the landruns as "land thieves" because that isn't what happened. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Most of my family attended OU and my own kid has considered attending OU, how they react to things like this in the future is pretty important to me. I would NOT allow my kid to attend UT because they seem pretty tolerant towards racist behavior on campus. The incident was beyond shameful, but I am proud that the University responded appropriately and swiftly. I saw in one of the links in this thread that something similar had happened with this same frat at UT, but it didn't say what the university's response was. I take it their response was underwhelming? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 The incident was beyond shameful, but I am proud that the University responded appropriately and swiftly. I saw in one of the links in this thread that something similar had happened with this same frat at UT, but it didn't say what the university's response was. I take it their response was underwhelming? It was a different fraternity, they had a "border patrol" party. Their response was "blah blah free speech blah blah blah we don't agree but blah" Edited I found the quote, "While the behavior doesn’t mirror UT core values, it’s within students’ right to freedom of speech at private off campus event" http://www.dailytexanonline.com/2015/03/02/fiji-border-patrol-party-did-not-violate-university-rules-administrators-say I am proud to be a Sooner today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I made a choice as a newbie homeschooler looking for connections . . . to choose not to put myself or my children in a social/educational group that excluded people based on their faith, their race, or their sexuality, or their nationality. I chose to politely decline the many kind invitations to join Christian homeschool groups, even though my family was practicing Episcopalians at that time and, so we identified as Christians and could have fit in to the Statements of Faith at the groups I was invited to join. It just seems wrong to me on a fundamental level to support a social or educational organization that excludes people based on those criteria. I'm fine with a church having a church-based activity, and I'm even fine with minorities or ethnic groups having groups that meet their unique needs. I'm not fine with the dominant culture/faith/social group creating structures that support themselves while excluding others. Seems wrong, so I don't play that way. I think these Greek groups typify the kind of social dominance and ugliness that grows in that fertile soil of separation and arrogance. I'm very glad that my children seem, so far, strongly in agreement with my rejection of the Greek system. I know my dollars wouldn't be going to support participation in that sort of system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Two students have been expelled. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Peregrine Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Two students have been expelled. Hopefully more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 It was a different fraternity, they had a "border patrol" party. Their response was "blah blah free speech blah blah blah we don't agree but blah" Edited I found the quote, "While the behavior doesn’t mirror UT core values, it’s within students’ right to freedom of speech at private off campus event" http://www.dailytexanonline.com/2015/03/02/fiji-border-patrol-party-did-not-violate-university-rules-administrators-say I am proud to be a Sooner today. Thank you for the correction and the further information. And I'm proud to be a sooner today too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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