How do you live peacefully with en extremely stubborn/strong willed child?

[Jennifer132]

This thread is really only for those who have a child like this. My dd8 is extremely strong willed. She doesn't respond to any kind of punishment/reward system, consistency doesn't matter, logic doesn't work, letting her do what she wants doesn't work, nothing works. She is a very helpful and intuitive child--when she wants to be--but if she doesn't want to, watch out! I'm at the point where I don't know a WHAT to do. If I require nothing of her (this includes battles regarding school, and yes, I have changed the curriculum) she will still find things to get mad about, in fact she will even get mad that I won't tell her what to do, and I will end up with no personal time at all because she won't leave me alone in the evenings when I want to hang out with dh. If I offer rewards or consequences, she doesn't care. If she doesn't want to, she won't. I have never encountered someone so stubborn. So I'm asking, what can I do just to keep the peace...I think I've exhausted all the parenting methods in the world already, now I'm just looking for a truce of some kind. :(

 

Btw, we have contacted a psychiatrist, but it'll be at least a month before they can see her. So in the mean time...help!

[JumpyTheFrog]

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542143-moms-of-difficult-kids-there-is-hope-an-update-on-tigger/

 

I started the above thread to discuss what has helped us. My son sounds much like your daughter.

[Catwoman]

No advice here, but sending you a :grouphug:

[hjffkj]

I offer extra cuddles when my 6 year old gets like this. For him its all about needing to reconnect with my or dh because the younger kids have taken up all our energy and attention. I also make it a point to stop doing what I'm doing and just play with him, whatever he wants to play. It has helped a ton when he was in a particularly stubborn period of life. Dd who is almost 5 is even more stubborn than he is and this approach is slowly making her stubbornness less of a daily issue.

[SKL]

My 8yo has always been very strong-willed.  I think she has a control thing going on.  Thankfully she is also a quiet, friendly, peaceful person most of the time.  She isn't one to pitch a fit if I tell her what to do, even if she is mentally very opposed to it.  She is more likely to slip out of the room when I turn my head.  :P

 

I give her as many choices as I can.  Serve food buffet-style or let her get her own (within reason) - and if that's not good enough, accept the fact that she isn't going to eat this meal, she'll eat when she's hungry enough.  I talk to her about cause and effect and what it takes to meet goals she has.  Wherever possible, I let her set the goals, or at least choose between a few that I approve.

 

A little competition can go a long way.  Getting her into an environment with other kids who are working toward similar goals helps.  Deep down, she's competitive.  She wants to be first and best on things that matter to her, and this could be one reason why she avoids things that aren't easy for her.  But if I tell her that doing xyz will get her abc, she will mull it over and often start doing xyz when I'm not looking.

 

Let her fail if that is the natural consequence of her choices.  Explain why her choices led to the failure.  Talk about what she can do better next time.  My kid has spent the past 6 months feeling bummed about not taking a test seriously and missing out on the gifted program.  Her choice, her loss.  If she wants it fixed, she needs to fix it.  And she's trying - because she wants it.

 

When all else fails, tell her she isn't allowed to do something you really want her to do.  :P  OK, I'm just joking about that.  I mean, it's tempting, but I don't play games.

 

And - what nobody wants to hear - my daughter's personality is the reason I don't seriously consider homeschooling an option for her.  She will do the needful to keep up in school and keep the teacher off her back.  At home, there is no peer pressure and no official doom for not complying.  If I give her 2 choices, 99% of the time she chooses a third option.  Sounds like a small issue, but cumulatively, it's tiring.  I could not operate like this day in and day out with something so important as an education.

[Catherine]

You know that site called It Gets Better?  Well, the site addresses a different issue of course, but...the same applies. 

 

Being strong willed is very adaptive but it can make a child extremely difficult to live with.  BTDT.  Limit-setting becomes this insane cat and mouse game.  It's horrible. 

 

Pick your battles, first and foremost.  Choose a few hills to die on and then YOU MUST DIE on them.  There are some battles you absolutely must win if you want any hope of sanity or order in your life or your child's.  Enlist help.  Send your other kids away temporarily if you must.  Devote an entire weekend to one problem if you need to.  It was so hard when I did this but I prevailed and it was soooo worth it.  He is a decent human being now and I think he needed to know we were there to guide him when he needed it. 

 

((hugs))

[creekland]

All I can say is good luck.  I kinda, sorta, maybe was that child in my youth and I can't even begin to give you much in advice as what would have worked in any given situation was totally based upon that situation and my mood at the time.  Then too, if there was something I wasn't going to do, I wasn't going to do it and no amount of time or punishment would have changed my mind.  I know - totally honestly - that in some countries and time periods in life I wouldn't have survived childhood.

 

But if you want hope, my mom and I have a great relationship now...  I like to think I turned out ok, but even now, there are things I won't do unless I decide to do them.  I don't feel there is any person or laws or gov't, etc, that is in control of my life.  I'm sure it's been that way since birth.

[LMD]

We bought 20acres and let him run. That, and get as much food into him as possible. 100% consistency makes a difference here, but it is tiring!

[creekland]

We bought 20acres and let him run. 

 

:lol:  My parents sent me (or let me go) outside as much as possible from as young as I can remember (I have memories from back to 3 years of age - wandering the woods around our house, purposely getting my 4 year old sister lost and enjoying the experience - no dangerous critters around, so "safe").  When at my grandpa's they let me go out into the barn to "help" too.  At 8 years of age I got my first pony... I got along better with our dogs, cats, and ponies than I did with humans.  They used our dogs and ponies to "babysit."  It worked quite well.

[TammyS]

One thing that helps a lot with a kid like this is to get away from the idea that consequences need to be immediate (or immediately announced).  She's not a baby anymore.  She isn't going to forget her wrong behavior if you don't discipline her immediately.  So, when you say, "Child do X." and she pitches a fit, refuses, or doesn't do it, just shrug your shoulders and walk away.  Later (maybe that day, maybe in a few days) she's going to want SOMETHING (a treat, to watch TV, a ride to her friend's house, whatever), THEN you deliver the consequence, "No.  I'm not taking you to your friend's house, because two days ago you were given an instruction and you didn't do it.  This is your consequence."  Then walk away.  You're not going to have an argument, because you're not going to be there.  Literally remove your body to some other space. 

 

Never give warnings.  That's just an invitation to an argument; you are, essentially, "starting it" (as kids say) when you give warnings.

 

Do have quiet time everyday (even if you have to get it by parking her in front of the TV).  A kid like this is exhausting. You've got to have some downtime to keep you from losing your mind.

 

 

[NorthwestMom]

One thing that helps a lot with a kid like this is to get away from the idea that consequences need to be immediate (or immediately announced).  She's not a baby anymore.  She isn't going to forget her wrong behavior if you don't discipline her immediately.  So, when you say, "Child do X." and she pitches a fit, refuses, or doesn't do it, just shrug your shoulders and walk away.  Later (maybe that day, maybe in a few days) she's going to want SOMETHING (a treat, to watch TV, a ride to her friend's house, whatever), THEN you deliver the consequence, "No.  I'm not taking you to your friend's house, because two days ago you were given an instruction and you didn't do it.  This is your consequence."  Then walk away.  You're not going to have an argument, because you're not going to be there.  Literally remove your body to some other space. 

 

Never give warnings.  That's just an invitation to an argument; you are, essentially, "starting it" (as kids say) when you give warnings.

 

Do have quiet time everyday (even if you have to get it by parking her in front of the TV).  A kid like this is exhausting. You've got to have some downtime to keep you from losing your mind.

 

Gently - this basically contradicts most behavior change advice I have ever studied. Most kids who have trouble complying with rules/requests/expectations need to have clear, consistent, predictable, and immediate feedback. 

[TammyS]

Gently - this basically contradicts most behavior change advice I have ever studied. Most kids who have trouble complying with rules/requests/expectations need to have clear, consistent, predictable, and immediate feedback. 

 

That's fine for kids that it works with, but IME, it does not work with strong willed children.  Strong willed children look at "clear, consistent, predictable" as some kind of economic exchange.  "If I do X, the punishment is Y.  I'm willing to pay that."   As a parent, I'm not ok with that.  I'm not ok with my child being willing to take Consequence X, so that they can indulge in Misbehavior Y.   

 

And immediate feedback with a strong willed child, IME, is one of the worst ideas that parents get sold.  TODDLERS need immediate feedback because they won't remember.  A child over 5 will. Their is no danger of them not associating their punishment with their crime, so to speak.  But their is real danger in immediate feedback, the danger is that you will be in a vicious fight trying to implement a consequence with a child whose will is so strong that they are almost literally willing to go to their death, rather than to submit to your punishment.  And once you are in that fight, you have already lost, regardless of what happens, because you have now taught the kid that it's ok to fight with you.  Immediate feedback is asking for a fight that you will lose, so that you can gain nothing.

[foxbridgeacademy]

All I can say is good luck.  I kinda, sorta, maybe was that child in my youth and I can't even begin to give you much in advice as what would have worked in any given situation was totally based upon that situation and my mood at the time.  Then too, if there was something I wasn't going to do, I wasn't going to do it and no amount of time or punishment would have changed my mind.  I know - totally honestly - that in some countries and time periods in life I wouldn't have survived childhood.

 

But if you want hope, my mom and I have a great relationship now...  I like to think I turned out ok, but even now, there are things I won't do unless I decide to do them.  I don't feel there is any person or laws or gov't, etc, that is in control of my life.  I'm sure it's been that way since birth.

Yeah I was kind of that child too.  My mom would lock herself in the bathroom to hide from me.  I think the physical discipline (my dad, not really my mom) actually made it worse and no amount of grounding helped.  For me the only thing that did help was giving me time away to come to the logical conclusion that yeah, maybe, mom was right.  But there was no convincing me, I had to decide on my own.  Another thing that works is absolutely refusing to engage in any arguing. 

 

I grew out of it in time and I also have a good relationship with my mom now. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

That's fine for kids that it works with, but IME, it does not work with strong willed children.  Strong willed children look at "clear, consistent, predictable" as some kind of economic exchange.  "If I do X, the punishment is Y.  I'm willing to pay that."   As a parent, I'm not ok with that.  I'm not ok with my child being willing to take Consequence X, so that they can indulge in Misbehavior Y.   

 

And immediate feedback with a strong willed child, IME, is one of the worst ideas that parents get sold.  TODDLERS need immediate feedback because they won't remember.  A child over 5 will. Their is no danger of them not associating their punishment with their crime, so to speak.  But their is real danger in immediate feedback, the danger is that you will be in a vicious fight trying to implement a consequence with a child whose will is so strong that they are almost literally willing to go to their death, rather than to submit to your punishment.  And once you are in that fight, you have already lost, regardless of what happens, because you have now taught the kid that it's ok to fight with you.  Immediate feedback is asking for a fight that you will lose, so that you can gain nothing.

:iagree:  :iagree:

 

As I said in previous post I was the that kind of kid and I was willing to take a beating, yeah literally, before I'd give in.  But if I was given time to calm down and consider, to reevaluate my position and/or given a face saving out then I did/do so much better.  I'm still strong willed and reactionary but I've learned how to stop and think to consider if what I'm about to say/do is reasonable.  I've also learned how to apologize for my bad behavior.

[creekland]

One thing that helps a lot with a kid like this is to get away from the idea that consequences need to be immediate (or immediately announced).  She's not a baby anymore.  She isn't going to forget her wrong behavior if you don't discipline her immediately.  So, when you say, "Child do X." and she pitches a fit, refuses, or doesn't do it, just shrug your shoulders and walk away.  Later (maybe that day, maybe in a few days) she's going to want SOMETHING (a treat, to watch TV, a ride to her friend's house, whatever), THEN you deliver the consequence, "No.  I'm not taking you to your friend's house, because two days ago you were given an instruction and you didn't do it.  This is your consequence."  Then walk away.  You're not going to have an argument, because you're not going to be there.  Literally remove your body to some other space. 

 

Never give warnings.  That's just an invitation to an argument; you are, essentially, "starting it" (as kids say) when you give warnings.

 

Do have quiet time everyday (even if you have to get it by parking her in front of the TV).  A kid like this is exhausting. You've got to have some downtime to keep you from losing your mind.

 

I would NEVER do this.  My Dad used this method.  Not only did it make me rather sneaky around him, it also taught me to never tell him the truth (basically never tell him anything) and never to depend upon him for anything - ever.  To this day our relationship is strained, but one "plus" (I suppose) is I learned to do many things myself from a very young age.  Other adults learned to never depend upon him either.  Sure he'd say I could go to this or that, but when the time came, he had changed his mind (based upon something I did wrong in his eyes days ago) so we didn't show up.  I never knew what would set him off as he wouldn't say anything.  All I knew was that I couldn't trust him.

 

For my kids (all of them, but esp my strong willed one), choices worked far, far better.  It's the same way with "challenging" kids at school too.  Give them choices and give them time to actually ponder those choices.  Just never give them a choice that you won't follow through with (plus or minus).

[Ottakee]

I would NEVER do this.  My Dad used this method.  Not only did it make me rather sneaky around him, it also taught me to never tell him the truth (basically never tell him anything) and never to depend upon him for anything - ever.  To this day our relationship is strained, but one "plus" (I suppose) is I learned to do many things myself from a very young age.  Other adults learned to never depend upon him either.  Sure he'd say I could go to this or that, but when the time came, he had changed his mind (based upon something I did wrong in his eyes days ago) so we didn't show up.  I never knew what would set him off as he wouldn't say anything.  All I knew was that I couldn't trust him.

 

For my kids (all of them, but esp my strong willed one), choices worked far, far better.  It's the same way with "challenging" kids at school too.  Give them choices and give them time to actually ponder those choices.  Just never give them a choice that you won't follow through with (plus or minus).

I TOTALLY agree.  As a foster parent we often deal with kids who come from parents who couldn't be trusted to do what they said, changed their mind at the last minute, etc. and to the kid it seemed like it didn't matter what they did as the parents would change their minds.

 

If possible try to give 2 or 3 choices of which ANY or ALL of them are fine with you.  Give the kid the opportunity to make choices that are all OK.

 

Also, if things get heated.  Try a PAUSE button........just take a break for a few minutes and then come back to the issue and they might have time to ponder their decision and "do it over".

[jewellsmommy]

One thing that helps a lot with a kid like this is to get away from the idea that consequences need to be immediate (or immediately announced).  She's not a baby anymore.  She isn't going to forget her wrong behavior if you don't discipline her immediately.  So, when you say, "Child do X." and she pitches a fit, refuses, or doesn't do it, just shrug your shoulders and walk away.  Later (maybe that day, maybe in a few days) she's going to want SOMETHING (a treat, to watch TV, a ride to her friend's house, whatever), THEN you deliver the consequence, "No.  I'm not taking you to your friend's house, because two days ago you were given an instruction and you didn't do it.  This is your consequence."  Then walk away.  You're not going to have an argument, because you're not going to be there.  Literally remove your body to some other space. 

 

Never give warnings.  That's just an invitation to an argument; you are, essentially, "starting it" (as kids say) when you give warnings.

 

Do have quiet time everyday (even if you have to get it by parking her in front of the TV).  A kid like this is exhausting. You've got to have some downtime to keep you from losing your mind.

 

 

Gently - this basically contradicts most behavior change advice I have ever studied. Most kids who have trouble complying with rules/requests/expectations need to have clear, consistent, predictable, and immediate feedback. 

 

 

This is different from what I have read, too... But I am still curious.

 

In Raising Your Spirited Child she suggests kids need warning. We are leaving in 10 min vs now. I try to give ds lots of heads up now, especially for the next day if we have big plans. Nothing is perfect, but I think it usually helps.

 

We have been given these same instructions (as Tammy S. suggests) with ds who is ODD. ODD and strong willed are 2 different things but ODD kids are strong willed.

 

What is meant by 'don't give warnings' (as I was taught by the therapist) is don't go into a situation where you say "We are going to the xyz store. If you want your screen time, do not do cartwheels in the aisle like last time." Doing this would literally make ds do whatever I said not to do. It would become an overwhelming compulsion. Instead I would say. "I expect you stay within arms reach" or within eye sight or right beside me etc. Giving a heads up to shifts in plans is fine. "We are leaving in 10 minutes." is great but don't say,  "We are leaving in 10 minutes and there better not be any whining about it or else______"

[LMD]

:lol: My parents sent me (or let me go) outside as much as possible from as young as I can remember (I have memories from back to 3 years of age - wandering the woods around our house, purposely getting my 4 year old sister lost and enjoying the experience - no dangerous critters around, so "safe"). When at my grandpa's they let me go out into the barn to "help" too. At 8 years of age I got my first pony... I got along better with our dogs, cats, and ponies than I did with humans. They used our dogs and ponies to "babysit." It worked quite well.

😄 that pretty much describes my father & father-in-laws childhoods (in India & former Yugoslavia respectively), I blame them!

But my son is a different kid out there! He runs, plays, picks up sticks... He's happy. In the city he's just so combative. Over everything.

[jewellsmommy]

I would NEVER do this.  My Dad used this method.  Not only did it make me rather sneaky around him, it also taught me to never tell him the truth (basically never tell him anything) and never to depend upon him for anything - ever.  To this day our relationship is strained, but one "plus" (I suppose) is I learned to do many things myself from a very young age.  Other adults learned to never depend upon him either.  Sure he'd say I could go to this or that, but when the time came, he had changed his mind (based upon something I did wrong in his eyes days ago) so we didn't show up.  I never knew what would set him off as he wouldn't say anything.  All I knew was that I couldn't trust him.

 

For my kids (all of them, but esp my strong willed one), choices worked far, far better.  It's the same way with "challenging" kids at school too.  Give them choices and give them time to actually ponder those choices.  Just never give them a choice that you won't follow through with (plus or minus).

 

I think this is an entirely different thing. Any method of discipline or correction can be used or manipulated in an unfair or random manner. That becomes a reflection on the parent not the program. As my understanding of this method, not sure about Tammy S. but I imagine hers may be the same, is not that you spring it on them days later. You tell them the consequence you just don't argue/haggle about it.

 

Real life example: I told ds to clean up a mound of legos that were spreading across the den floor (from a previous playtime still left out). He started yelling and screaming and throwing himself around. I told him he would not disrupt my evening, he could go collect himself in his room. An hour later he is still in his room, but has started playing. When he came out, I told him that the legos still need to be picked up. He started getting tensed up again, and I held up my hand and said "Stop. you will not be permitted to do anything else in the den until the legos are up. That is the rule. This is not negotiable." He says fine and goes back to playing in his room. Half an hour later was bed. The next day after school he wanted to watch a movie. I told him, "No, there is still a pile of legos in the floor. When they are put away then you may ask me about the movie again." He went to his room to play instead. When dd wanted to play wii, he asked to watch her (wii is in the den). I said no. He got mad etc. was sent to his room. Finally he came out of his room and cleaned them up.

 

The difference from before was that I didn't have a massive blow-up on my hands by trying to make him clean them up that night. I knew that his want of the den would eventually outweigh his resistance to "lose" the battle as he sees it. In his mind any compliance is a loss of his perceived power/control. By waiting him out, he is forced to decide which is worth more his victory or the privileges. He is always welcome to come and talk about a rule as long as it is in a controlled manner. My biggest mistake though is "over" talking something to death. Trying to reason it out. I am working on that. I try to save the reasoning for long after the battle, when we can look back and ask ourselves how it could have gone down better etc.

 

We have the same battle with some of the chores. I don't ask if they are done throughout the day. I wait. I give him time. When he asks to do something involving a screen or extra I say, "Yes, if your responsibilities are done." If he starts a fit he must go to his room. If he chooses not to do his chores that day then he forfeits the privileges that would have come with them. At 11, he knows this plus it is printed up and laminated in 2 places in our house.  Nothing is a surprise. We state our expectations. We have stated rules. We have stated privileges that come when you are in good standing with those rules.

[SKL]

Just a general comment about immediate discipline changing behavior.  I find it much more helpful to remind the kid of the rule / preferred behavior shortly before the next opportunity to make that choice.  (Of course that requires *me* to remember the problem before it happens again.)  I generally don't even bother mentioning it right after the mistake, unless the offense was more of a respect issue than anything else.  I know they will probably forget by next time - unless I deal out some sort of dramatic punishment, which is not my usual style.

 

I know the popular advice is immediate, consistent, etc.  But I recall from my college psych courses that studies showed the most effective learning occurred with inconsistent discipline.  Inconsistent discipline has been used on most people throughout history and it hasn't destroyed the human race yet.  Consistency sounds more rational, but life is messy, and sometimes we just have to do the best we can.

 

I do warn my kids if I think they need a threat to change their behavior, but I don't feel constrained if something comes up that I didn't think to warn them about in advance.  An 8yo has a pretty good sense of what is and isn't going to fly.

[SKL]

Another thing.  A need for control is more of an insecurity than anything else.  It isn't the same as wanting to do naughty things or hurt people.  "I am going to make you xyz" will intensify the problem.  "xyz needs to get done and your help is needed" is more effective IMO.  Team speak is more effective than "I" vs. "you."

[creekland]

I think this is an entirely different thing. Any method of discipline or correction can be used or manipulated in an unfair or random manner. That becomes a reflection on the parent not the program. As my understanding of this method, not sure about Tammy S. but I imagine hers may be the same, is not that you spring it on them days later. You tell them the consequence you just don't argue/haggle about it.

 

...

 

What you are describing is the same thing as choices and time to ponder those choices.  This is what I opt for in various ways because it is what works if anything is going to.  Choices are spelled out with consequences and it is consistent.  It works super well at school or in any situation, and when it doesn't, the consequence is there, used, making it likely the following time will be better.

 

But what was said before was:

 

So, when you say, "Child do X." and she pitches a fit, refuses, or doesn't do it, just shrug your shoulders and walk away.  Later (maybe that day, maybe in a few days) she's going to want SOMETHING (a treat, to watch TV, a ride to her friend's house, whatever), THEN you deliver the consequence, "No.  I'm not taking you to your friend's house, because two days ago you were given an instruction and you didn't do it.  This is your consequence." 

 

This is what my dad did.  From the time I was 11 until I was 15 just the two of us lived together.  He'd say in some sort of nonchalant way that he wanted the lawn mowed.  It didn't get done.  Three or four days later I'd be supposed to go to a friend's house.  Five minutes before we were supposed to leave he'd come to me and say I couldn't go because I didn't get the lawn mowed eons ago.  I was then supposed to call the friend and explain why I couldn't come.  He messed up birthday parties, get togethers, and pretty much anything else he could.

 

My reaction was to tell him nothing and make no plans he knew about or could ruin.  If there were plans, my friends knew I wouldn't necessarily be coming.  I'd never let him know anything I liked and I made sure nothing he did could get to me.  I sure as heck didn't make it a priority to mow the lawn once he used that tactic.  It would (and did) become a battle forever for me at that point.  He ended up giving up and mowing the lawn most of the time thereafter.  I only did it when I wanted it done for a reason - usually a pony related one (I rode on our yard).

 

Had he (nicely) given me warning that the lawn needed to be mowed before I could go to the friend's house, it would have been done without issue - as long as he didn't want me to drop everything and do it that minute that he asked.

 

Choices work.  Demands do not.  And unknown consequences bring on the battle and the resentment - along with the distrust, and at the time, pure hatred.  I've since gotten over the hatred, but the close relationship I have with my mom is not there with my dad.  I doubt I'll shed a tear at his funeral.  We had many good times together growing up (he was my groom at horse shows and my main cheerleader at school and showing horses, etc), but closeness and trust?  Never.  I couldn't EVER let him know anything that could get to me.  I learned that at a young age.  

 

One time he did it to me with an important horse show where I was supposed to ride horses for other people.  It wasn't long after that that I left him and never looked back.  At this point I don't even remember what the infraction was for that one.  I just knew that if he was going to interfere with horses/showing too, there was no point of closeness between us any longer.  There hasn't been since either.

[Pronghorn]

I think the big question is why the kid is strong-willed. If you answer that, you have a better chance of addressing the problem. My strong-willed child had attachment issues. My strong-willed nephew has Aspergers. Just applying discipline without understanding could undermine parent-child trust.

[KrissiK]

That's fine for kids that it works with, but IME, it does not work with strong willed children. Strong willed children look at "clear, consistent, predictable" as some kind of economic exchange. "If I do X, the punishment is Y. I'm willing to pay that." As a parent, I'm not ok with that. I'm not ok with my child being willing to take Consequence X, so that they can indulge in Misbehavior Y. .

This is my 11 year old kid. He doesn't care. But, he does start caring when we don't give him immediate feedback or warnings. Engaging him at the time just gives him more ammo. Yesterday he was downright disobedient and defiant in church. Horrible attitude. I said nothing. But we went out for lunch for other DS's birthday to KFC and I told him that he won't be choosing his lunch. We will provide for him a 2 piece meal and water. If that was not acceptable to him, he could have PB&J at home. He chose to pout in the corner while the rest of the family enjoyed our lunch. But his attitude changed!

[Brianna]

For us, I know you said you've already contacted someone, but behavioral therapy and she's on meds now too.

For me I cope with coffee, late night bubble baths and I like to diffuse vetiver essential oils. When she's driving me crazy I can sniff it and it totally relaxes me ;)

[TammyS]

This is different from what I have read, too... But I am still curious.

 

In Raising Your Spirited Child she suggests kids need warning. We are leaving in 10 min vs now. I try to give ds lots of heads up now, especially for the next day if we have big plans. Nothing is perfect, but I think it usually helps.

 

What you are talking about is different from what I am talking about.  What you are talking about I would call "notice".  I do it and I think it's a good idea.  You are giving the child notice that you will be leaving in 10 min.  This not only helps the kid wrap their head around it, but it's also just plain respect.  The kid, even though a child, is a person, and no one likes to be told "out of the blue" (which is what it feels like to the child) to drop what they are doing.  Advance notice is just showing respect to them as a person.

 

A "warning" is more like, "If you don't stop X behavior now, Y consequence is going to follow.".  I understand for a lot of kids that works to give them a chance to change their behavior.  For strong willed kids, however, that statement is just picking a fight.

[TammyS]

I would NEVER do this.  My Dad used this method.  Not only did it make me rather sneaky around him, it also taught me to never tell him the truth (basically never tell him anything) and never to depend upon him for anything - ever.  To this day our relationship is strained, but one "plus" (I suppose) is I learned to do many things myself from a very young age.  Other adults learned to never depend upon him either.  Sure he'd say I could go to this or that, but when the time came, he had changed his mind (based upon something I did wrong in his eyes days ago) so we didn't show up.  I never knew what would set him off as he wouldn't say anything.  All I knew was that I couldn't trust him.

 

For my kids (all of them, but esp my strong willed one), choices worked far, far better.  It's the same way with "challenging" kids at school too.  Give them choices and give them time to actually ponder those choices.  Just never give them a choice that you won't follow through with (plus or minus).

 

This is entirely different from what I'm talking about.  If I told a kid they could go do something, they can go do it.  I've already said so.  I'm just talking about denying their next request.

 

It also sounds like your dad had dependability issues across the board, so again, not related.

[TammyS]

 My biggest mistake though is "over" talking something to death.

 

For real.

 

Sometimes I wish that someone could stand behind my kid when I'm talking and hold up a sign that says, "Shut up already!"

 

 

[TammyS]

  But I recall from my college psych courses that studies showed the most effective learning occurred with inconsistent discipline.

 

I haven't read this, but it makes sense.  I know that in reading dog training lit there is the idea of "jackpot" rewards, which is that every so often, instead of a cuddle or a little treat, you give the dog some "high" value reward (like a cheeseburger) and it keeps them coming back to that behavior, hoping they will "jackpot" again.  It's also the thing that keeps gamblers gambling, even in the face of bad odds, and even after they've won.

[Jennifer132]

OP here--I'm sorry, I don't have time to reply to everyone individually--but thank you everyone, so many good thoughts here. I may print this out and read it from time to time.

 

For those who were themselves strong willed as children (I was not) , you've talked about what didn't work a lot. But what did work?

 

Some of you said something along the lines of, "If this doesn't happen, she has to go to her room." How exactly do you enforce that? My dd will stand in my doorway and not leave. If I close the door, she will pound, and if I retreat to another part of the house, she will follow me, just to continue to fight with me.

 

Those with a child with ODD, how is it different than strong willed--just more intensely strong willed, or?...

 

It's crazy because my dd is so incredibly sweet and helpful when she wants to be. She will do chores for me without me even asking. She is very intuitive with helping with the smaller children and kind. And she takes instruction fine a lot of the time, but if she gets it in her mind that she doesn't want to, nothing, nothing, nothing will change her mind. So I'm left feeling unsure and confused since half the time I tell her what to do and she has no issue, the other half of the time we are looking at WWIII!

 

Someone said it would help to know why she is strong willed; I'm sorry, I had to wonder at that comment. She was simply born that way. She pretty much came out crying and demanding and hasn't stopped.

[fairfarmhand]

I have a child exactly like this.

 

I am so sorry to tell you this, but your life will not be peaceful. There are going to be many battles and days where you just want to run away.

So, gird up your yoga pants and prepare yourself.

 

Read the Explosive child. It really helped me.

 

I do agree that you can't start meting out consequences in the midst of a fit. The child is SO wound up that they are beyond logic. It's all about feelings to them at that point and you won't get through to them. Also, my dd has the annoying habit when I do enforce consequences of saying "I only got that punishment because YOU were mad at me." Which is not what was happening (she's seeing my reaction mirrored in hers) and not what I want her to take away (mom punishes because she was mad, so this punishment is not my fault) You have to wait until later, when they are sort of calm and then have a discussion. Just popping a punishment up out of the blue will give a repeat of the tantrum that started the whole thing!

 

Now, when you have a conflict, here's how I handle it. I don't do some random punshiment days later. However, when the storm has passed, my dd and I have a discussion. It helps that she has younger siblings, so I frame it as "Honestly, dear, you know your behavior was terrible. Would you expect me to punish your sibling for behaving that way?" Usually, if the storm is over, she will hang her head. I then say things like, " Well, , I need you to start considering your behavior before you do ___. And punishments can help with that. It's tempting to me to have ____ as a punishment. But I don't want to because I know you are really looking forward to that. However, is there something else that you can think of that might be just as effective?" Often, we can come to an agreement about the consequences. Don't allow this to turn into a hugely long lecture or argument. Get in there address the issue and leave it there. If the child starts winding up for round two, step away, because you won't get through. It's exhausting, but take as much time as you can to quietly discuss things. You're probably thinking "I don't have time for that" and you're probably right, but you really need to take time for it, because these intense kids will end up taking that time in other ways if you don't.

 

Your dd needs a clear statement of behavior. We needed it written down and discussed when we were both calm. I posted it in a prominent place. This eliminated the discussion of what I said, what she thought it meant blah balh blah (You probably have had these insane arguments!)

 

We also need magadoses of structure. We have a day to day routine that is seldom deviated from. (not rigid schedule, but routine) She totally needs hig-quality food (sugary snacks were not a good idea) physical activity (usually took some of the rough edges off) socialization time with friends, and plenty of sleep. This was hard for me because I'm not a structured person, but it really helps with life in general.

 

 

By the way, when your child makes a stride, no matter how small, praise the daylights out of it. This seemed so weird to me, because most kids can complete a page of math without falling to pieces and wailing in the floor, or clean their rooms without screaming and throwing things. (why should I praise a child for doing normal everyday things?) But when I see my dd tempted to fall apart, and yet she pulled it together, I really want to make a note of that. Especially because these kids are so hard that you feel that you have to stay on them about every little thing.  You're not really praising the thing that the child did, you praise them for holding it together in very frustrating (for them) circumstances.

 

Really, the thing that helped me most was stepping away from my adversarial mindset and "getting on my dd's side." Figuring out ways for her to do what had to be done, with my help, going around circumstances that will cause a meltdown. Choosing battles is very wise. My children don't make their beds or have very clean, organized rooms. It's just not a battle that I want to fight.

[Ottakee]

Just as an encouragement, my friend had a dd like this.  She was extremely difficult, even at school.  Once in the ER the doctor came out and was so frustrated with the teen.  Her mom would hide out in the barn sometimes taking a LONG time to do chores just to avoid the conflicts.

 

This dd had a rough teen years, made some poor choices, etc. BUT.......now is 28, married to a wonderful guy, has 2 beautiful children (including a daughter just like her  :huh: ).  She is now a paramedic and a great one at that as she can handle the intense emotions of people, the difficult patients, etc.  My friend said that once she got to be in her early 20s she wrote them an apology letter about how she had behaved as a child/teen.  

 

They now have a great relationship and knowing this young woman now, I would have never guessed how difficult she was as a child/teen.

[Scarlett]

That's fine for kids that it works with, but IME, it does not work with strong willed children. Strong willed children look at "clear, consistent, predictable" as some kind of economic exchange. "If I do X, the punishment is Y. I'm willing to pay that." As a parent, I'm not ok with that. I'm not ok with my child being willing to take Consequence X, so that they can indulge in Misbehavior Y.

 

And immediate feedback with a strong willed child, IME, is one of the worst ideas that parents get sold. TODDLERS need immediate feedback because they won't remember. A child over 5 will. Their is no danger of them not associating their punishment with their crime, so to speak. But their is real danger in immediate feedback, the danger is that you will be in a vicious fight trying to implement a consequence with a child whose will is so strong that they are almost literally willing to go to their death, rather than to submit to your punishment. And once you are in that fight, you have already lost, regardless of what happens, because you have now taught the kid that it's ok to fight with you. Immediate feedback is asking for a fight that you will lose, so that you can gain nothing.

My strong willed child is 15 now and I can tell you there is some truth to this. He will talk me to death......and it is so easy to say oh just stop talking....but short of putting tape over his mouth he won't stop. For over a week we have been in a battle over his grades. I told him I want them brought up or he can't keep taking time off during the school day to hang out with his friends. To me it wasn't a punishment.....it was hey your grades are slipping lets get back to a more rigid schedule until they come back up. He has been enraged for a week. Most of the time I have held it together but I lost it with him a dew days ago....and that is the worst Possible thing it seems....but anyway...he won't eat because things aren't going his way. and although he denies it I believe he did LESS work last week which was the first week he had to stay home during the day all week. It feels like he just wanted to show me that MY away won't work.

 

It is a hill to die on at this point. If he chooses to continue letting his grades go to prove a point with me that will,be on him.

 

Anyway, hugs and I do understand.

[fairfarmhand]

OP here--I'm sorry, I don't have time to reply to everyone individually--but thank you everyone, so many good thoughts here. I may print this out and read it from time to time.

 

For those who were themselves strong willed as children (I was not) , you've talked about what didn't work a lot. But what did work?

 

I'm not strongwilled, but my dh is. He said his father did better with him than his mom. Dad was consistent (each child had a standard of behavior) and he was fair. It didn't eliminate all the battles, but his dad only made rules he could enforce and he wisely chose his battles.

 

Some of you said something along the lines of, "If this doesn't happen, she has to go to her room." How exactly do you enforce that? My dd will stand in my doorway and not leave. If I close the door, she will pound, and if I retreat to another part of the house, she will follow me, just to continue to fight with me.

 

Yeah, been there done that. Really, I have learned that I need to find a way around the fight. So if it's math, I tell her, Okay. Here's math, do you want to do it on the couch, at the table, or at the kitchen counter? Would you like me to sit with you? When she gets to a hard problem, I try to step in before she gets to the crazy part. Ooohhh...I remember learning that. It is hard. Let's do some together on the marker board. I'll do a step, and then you do the next step.

 

Sometimes, as moms of intense kids, you do just go to your room and let the kid pound. It's hard. It's not peaceful. I've noticed I'm graying alot. I know, some kids just WON'T cooperate. Parents of normal kids go "I wouldn't stand for that!" and I go, "Okay, How would you not stand for that?" When the child doesn't care how much you take away, what do you do?

 

We've had some crazy Super Nanny moments in our house. For some of them, I don't see how they could've been avoided.

 

Those with a child with ODD, how is it different than strong willed--just more intensely strong willed, or?...

 

It's crazy because my dd is so incredibly sweet and helpful when she wants to be. She will do chores for me without me even asking. She is very intuitive with helping with the smaller children and kind. And she takes instruction fine a lot of the time, but if she gets it in her mind that she doesn't want to, nothing, nothing, nothing will change her mind. So I'm left feeling unsure and confused since half the time I tell her what to do and she has no issue, the other half of the time we are looking at WWIII!

 

So when she balks at instruction, give us a for instance of what happens? Do you say, "You MUST do this."

 

Someone said it would help to know why she is strong willed; I'm sorry, I had to wonder at that comment. She was simply born that way. She pretty much came out crying and demanding and hasn't stopped.

Kids are born strong willed. Jesus himself could parent her and she'd still be angry demanding and ugly.

 

[Scarlett]

For real.

 

Sometimes I wish that someone could stand behind my kid when I'm talking and hold up a sign that says, "Shut up already!"

My mom does. :). Well she mouths shhhhh behind his back.

[Alte Veste Academy]

It's crazy because my dd is so incredibly sweet and helpful when she wants to be. She will do chores for me without me even asking. She is very intuitive with helping with the smaller children and kind. And she takes instruction fine a lot of the time, but if she gets it in her mind that she doesn't want to, nothing, nothing, nothing will change her mind. So I'm left feeling unsure and confused since half the time I tell her what to do and she has no issue, the other half of the time we are looking at WWIII.

Based on the above, seeing that it is not a constant, across-the-board issue, I strongly recommend Strong-Willed Child or Dreamer? http://www.amazon.com/Strong-Willed-Child-Dreamer-Dana-Spears/dp/0785277005

 

My DD10 is strong-willed...and a Dreamer. She has a very strong sense of justice and fairness. Sensitive, artistic, kind, thoughtful... My biggest confusion was the glaring incongruity between how sweet and empathetic she was with how upset and unreasonable she could get. This book taught me so much. For starters, she has got to get her feelings out and feel heard and understood, or she will go to the mats. I did not change my rules or consequences for anything, but what I did do was keep my own reactions in check and be gentle with her even when she was not gentle with me. I listened to her feelings, found the source for each perceived injustice, and we talked, talked, talked, talked, talked, talked, talked...

 

I also made sure to spend lots of time building a more mature relationship with her. We cooked, we sewed, we read books together. One HUGE thing (and still is) is that I talk to her about when I got in trouble as a kid. I will ask her what she would do if she were the mom (exercising her sense of justice, LOL). I was strong-willed and my parents handled it all wrong. No one ever listened to me, understood me, knew me.

 

I see a new baby too. Congratulations! Has she had any feelings about that, adjustment issues? Do you make time for just her? A challenge, I know. But this may be part of it if problems are surging right now.

 

And my life is very peaceful! Don't resign yourself to opposition! I will reiterate: consequences for misbehavior remained the same! But I changed my handling of her, and that changed everything. Honestly, she is my easiest child now, something that DH and I laugh about regularly. LOL I am not saying everything would change for everyone if they just do things this way. But they might. Might at least improve.

[fairfarmhand]

I agree with what was written above.

 

Just because a child says, "This is STUPID! I HATE this!" Is no reason to go to the mat. Instead of "You don't need to complain about school. Just hush and do your work. " I was better served by saying, " I remember thinking the same thing." There;s a difference between momentary venting and a lifetime of whining.

 

In other words, what some parents see as BACKTALK is a strongwilled child's way of venting their feelings. My dd may complain about it when I tell her to get off the computer and go to bed, but I still firmly go, "Yes, but it is bedtime. Finish up what you need to do in 5 minutes and then hit the sack. Busy day tomorrow!" (cheerful smile kiss on the head)

 

Remember that feelings are much much bigger to these kinds of kids than many of us.

[Clear Creek]

Just a general comment about immediate discipline changing behavior.  I find it much more helpful to remind the kid of the rule / preferred behavior shortly before the next opportunity to make that choice.  (Of course that requires *me* to remember the problem before it happens again.)  I generally don't even bother mentioning it right after the mistake, unless the offense was more of a respect issue than anything else.  I know they will probably forget by next time - unless I deal out some sort of dramatic punishment, which is not my usual style.

 

I know the popular advice is immediate, consistent, etc.  But I recall from my college psych courses that studies showed the most effective learning occurred with inconsistent discipline.  Inconsistent discipline has been used on most people throughout history and it hasn't destroyed the human race yet.  Consistency sounds more rational, but life is messy, and sometimes we just have to do the best we can.

 

I do warn my kids if I think they need a threat to change their behavior, but I don't feel constrained if something comes up that I didn't think to warn them about in advance.  An 8yo has a pretty good sense of what is and isn't going to fly.

 

 

I haven't read this, but it makes sense.  I know that in reading dog training lit there is the idea of "jackpot" rewards, which is that every so often, instead of a cuddle or a little treat, you give the dog some "high" value reward (like a cheeseburger) and it keeps them coming back to that behavior, hoping they will "jackpot" again.  It's also the thing that keeps gamblers gambling, even in the face of bad odds, and even after they've won.

 

Inconsistent discipline and inconsistent rewards are two different things. Inconsistent rewards (the "jackpot" reward) leads to the desired behavior in hopes of the jackpot. Inconsistent discipline will actually have the opposite effect - the jackpot in that case will be the lack of consequenses for misbehavior, which will just reinforce the misbehavior.

[gardenmom5]

btdt with dudeling.  I take him to a naturopath (which may not be available where you are), as he has brain chemicals that are at the wrong levels. correcting those has helped.

 

a consistent routine and plenty of sleep, regular feeding (blood sugar) are super important. having enough "quiet time" scheduled in for him as he can easily get overwhelmed. he's a conundrum in that he seeks sensory input - but is very easily overwhelmed by sensory input (and then he becomes utterly unreasonable.).  I have to limit it.  no ifs, ands or buts. it's also something very easy to miss unless you are watching for it.  there is a window in his stimulation level where he will cooperate, but five minutes either side . . . forget it. 

I will add: as he's gotten older, he can tolerate more flex, but still not as much as his peers.

 

 it is very easy to have too many things going on.   even now that he is 10.  he spent much of the weekend with his adult brother, and things were not as consistent as they needed to be.  he had a complete meltdown when I picked him up.  he was very overtired, among other factors.  he actually apologized the next day.

 

changing his chemistry has also made it more able to work with him that these are the rules.

I also had to stop caring if he did what I wanted him to do or not.  the: is this a hill you want to die on?  if he refused to get dressed - well, he could go in his pj's, but he had to come.  (he's never taken me up on it.  we don't tell him the number of college students (incl. grad students) in class in their flannel pj bottoms . . . . )

 

letting him know ahead of time exactly what actions/behaviors were expected from him - in pretty blunt terms.  also remembering, this is a child for whom cooperation is a foreign word.   so, I only push on that which is most important.  there are things that are non-negotiable, but something's he needs to be allowed the illusion of power.

[gardenmom5]

about the thinking you are there to provide entertainment so you have no time to yourself, with your dh:

 

he has to be in his room by a certain time.  he can read, he can draw, he can play with a toy, but he must be in his room.  he would actually turn off the light and then climb in bed.  only recently have I caught him still reading at 11pm . . .. . he thought turning the light off when he heard me coming would protect him . . . .

 

 he still has a bedtime routine that I still have to take charge of, but it is much easier now than even when he was eight.  I have to have time away from him in the evening.

 

 

[creekland]

This dd had a rough teen years, made some poor choices, etc. BUT.......now is 28, married to a wonderful guy, has 2 beautiful children (including a daughter just like her  :huh: ).  She is now a paramedic and a great one at that as she can handle the intense emotions of people, the difficult patients, etc. 

 

...

 

They now have a great relationship and knowing this young woman now, I would have never guessed how difficult she was as a child/teen.

 

This.  One of the best things about my background is I do understand where other kids are coming from (at school mainly where I work) and can handle many situations even with the "bad" kids.  They usually aren't bad (drug addiction issues excepted as it applies to behavior).  They usually are really misunderstood and have built walls.

 

I have a child like this (one who is very strong-willed or stubborn), and she is the same age. I was also like this myself. Still am, actually.

 

Yes, it can be enormously frustrating. Yes, I have struggled with this. Quite a lot. Over time, DD and I have built up some sort of mutual understanding and respect, however, and we now have a good, open relationship the vast majority of the time. From observing her and thinking back to what made me tick as a kid, I have made these conclusions:

 

• This child NEEDS to feel and be respected and listened to. She sees herself as an equal in all ways. Because she is young and inexperienced, the value of experience is not quite clear to her yet. I cannot blame her for that.
• Punishing her for being who she is is counterproductive. Seeking obedience is futile. Seeking mutual understanding and consensus works.
• This requires me to explain my motivations for doing something in detail. That includes the explicit need to say I am not doing things to bug her, but because I think she benefits from them. 
• She can be socially unaware. This is not something she does on purpose. She yells at me when she feels frustrated, for instance. Rather than punishing that, I calmly explain why what she is doing could be seen as rude. Then, I ask her to adjust her tone. She does. 

In short, I have been treating her the way I would want a more experienced mentor to treat me: with respect, dealing with problems through dialogue, and not attaching value-judgments or motivations to behavior I don't like to see.

 

DD is a wonderful person. She is just resistant to doing what other people tell her to do because they tell her to do it. She needs to understand the "whys" and agree. This way of thinking will offer great benefits to her in the future, but she also needs to learn to cooperate with others successfully. I tell her just that.

 

I don't think my DD needs the intervention of any type of mental health professional. Her personality will always be like this, and there is nothing wrong with it. I'll add that she is a very hard worker who wants to contribute to the family in any way she can. She does not behave like a master in the home or anything. It's just that she won't do stuff if she disagrees. Getting her to agree through very detailed dialogue solves most of that, but I need to compromise too.

 

:iagree:

 

These kids want to feel truly needed.  They don't want to be bossed around.  They want to be part of a team where their thoughts count and as team members with real responsibility they will be awesome.  They need reasons and they need time to process reasons.  They don't have experience, but naturally assume they know everything, so act accordingly.  It takes a good understanding and each situation is different.  My intuition helps me far more than any set rule, but one rule is not to get into verbal fights.  Those help nothing.

 

Even as an adult I will have nothing to do with those who feel they are my boss vs a team member.

[SKL]

Another thing I should have mentioned.  If my kid starts being oppositional about something important, I will just ask why she doesn't want to do something.  90% of the problem can be solved just by letting her feel heard.  She can then listen to why that thing is important in my opinion.  Maybe we can even restructure things so her preferences are figured in.  Of course this also requires her to live up to her end of the bargain.

 

I also have categories of things that aren't negotiable, period.  Like, what she's going to wear to school.  I will not have that discussion/argument/negotiation 180 days per year.  And she understands why.  She doesn't care too much about what she wears to school anyway, but if she thinks she has a say so, it will be a negotiation every time.  (And she has weird tastes.  :P)  So I made a rule that I always choose her school clothes, period.  I think it was a relief for both of us.

[Clear Creek]

I agree with what several others have stated...routines (with advance notice for anything out of the ordinary), praise when the child's frustration is held in check, choices offered instead of demands imposed, clear guidelines and expectations up front in order to satisfy the child's sense of justice (i.e. in our house the TV does not turn on until school is done, piano has been practiced, and rooms are clean - for *all* of the kids - so there is no point in throwing a fit because the TV just doesn't turn on until all three conditions are satisfied, ever), and most important...making sure the child feels heard. My daughter will dig herself into a deep, deep hole if that is what it takes to feel heard. Her sense of justice is extremely strong, and if she feels that I am being unjust in my reaction to her behavior, she will do anything to be heard. Pausing to listen to her point of view (no matter how very wrong it might be) leads to more cooperation on her part than anything else I can do. Until she feels heard, lecturing just leads to arguing. Things remain much calmer if I listen to her side and offer a logical explanation for my side.

 

Also, extra doses of affection throughout the day. Since we seem to be at odds with each other quite often, I want her to feel loved despite our disagreements. I know that if someone I loved disagreed with me constantly and made (in my view) unreasonable and unjust demands of me all the time, I would struggle to feel truly loved by that person. Since that is what my daughter thinks her reality is, I try to build up her feelings of being loved so that they greatly outweigh the feelings she gets from our battles.

[Scarlett]

I have a child like this (one who is very strong-willed or stubborn), and she is the same age. I was also like this myself. Still am, actually.

 

Yes, it can be enormously frustrating. Yes, I have struggled with this. Quite a lot. Over time, DD and I have built up some sort of mutual understanding and respect, however, and we now have a good, open relationship the vast majority of the time. From observing her and thinking back to what made me tick as a kid, I have made these conclusions:

 

• This child NEEDS to feel and be respected and listened to. She sees herself as an equal in all ways. Because she is young and inexperienced, the value of experience is not quite clear to her yet. I cannot blame her for that.
• Punishing her for being who she is is counterproductive. Seeking obedience is futile. Seeking mutual understanding and consensus works.
• This requires me to explain my motivations for doing something in detail. That includes the explicit need to say I am not doing things to bug her, but because I think she benefits from them.
• She can be socially unaware. This is not something she does on purpose. She yells at me when she feels frustrated, for instance. Rather than punishing that, I calmly explain why what she is doing could be seen as rude. Then, I ask her to adjust her tone. She does.

In short, I have been treating her the way I would want a more experienced mentor to treat me: with respect, dealing with problems through dialogue, and not attaching value-judgments or motivations to behavior I don't like to see.

 

DD is a wonderful person. She is just resistant to doing what other people tell her to do because they tell her to do it. She needs to understand the "whys" and agree. This way of thinking will offer great benefits to her in the future, but she also needs to learn to cooperate with others successfully. I tell her just that.

 

I don't think my DD needs the intervention of any type of mental health professional. Her personality will always be like this, and there is nothing wrong with it. I'll add that she is a very hard worker who wants to contribute to the family in any way she can. She does not behave like a master in the home or anything. It's just that she won't do stuff if she disagrees. Getting her to agree through very detailed dialogue solves most of that, but I need to compromise too.

I did this when my son too. Now he is 15 and explains to me why he thinks he should get to do what he wants. And he will not stop. So I have been rethinking my detailed explaining to him all of these years.

[fairfarmhand]

I did this when my son too. Now he is 15 and explains to me why he thinks he should get to do what he wants. And he will not stop. So I have been rethinking my detailed explaining to him all of these years.

 

yeah. It doesn't cure it all. I can take some discussion but there comes a point where I'm like "Okay. I've answered you;. You didn't like my answer and that's okay, But it will not change. you're wasting your breath."

 

"I believe I've answered you."

 

"Hmmm...I feel like we've had this conversation before."

 

 

"Child, We've already discussed this. Are you nagging, or just spoiling for an argument? Because either way my answer will not change."

 

grunt.

 

 

And yes, sometimes when I fail to engage, it does cause a blow up. But there's only so far I can go. Eventually, yes is yes and no is no. And the kid doesn't have to like it.

[KrissiK]

I did this when my son too. Now he is 15 and explains to me why he thinks he should get to do what he wants. And he will not stop. So I have been rethinking my detailed explaining to him all of these years.

Oh yeah! We, too, got sucked into that old "children need a reason and should understand why they should obey or do something" and now everything is an argument. And he thinks that if it is not reasonable to him, he shouldn't have to do it. And that includes taking a shower, doing school work, everything.

[Scarlett]

yeah. It doesn't cure it all. I can take some discussion but there comes a point where I'm like "Okay. I've answered you;. You didn't like my answer and that's okay, But it will not change. you're wasting your breath."

 

"I believe I've answered you."

 

"Hmmm...I feel like we've had this conversation before."

 

 

"Child, We've already discussed this. Are you nagging, or just spoiling for an argument? Because either way my answer will not change."

 

grunt.

 

 

And yes, sometimes when I fail to engage, it does cause a blow up. But there's only so far I can go. Eventually, yes is yes and no is no. And the kid doesn't have to like it.

I guess you are right. That is what I am dealing with right now. Although he woke up in a fairly agreeable mood after being sent to bed at 8 because he was being so unpleasant. He refused to eat....and sat at the table seething....all because I told him he needed to pause school work for a while and come help with dinner.

 

Sorry for T/J!

[Scarlett]

Oh yeah! We, too, got sucked into that old "children need a reason and should understand why they should obey or do something" and now everything is an argument. And he thinks that if it is not reasonable to him, he shouldn't have to do it. And that includes taking a shower, doing school work, everything.

No kidding. And curse the vocabulary lesson that taught him the word persuasion when he was about 7.

[fairfarmhand]

I guess you are right. That is what I am dealing with right now. Although he woke up in a fairly agreeable mood after being sent to bed at 8 because he was being so unpleasant. He refused to eat....and sat at the table seething....all because I told him he needed to pause school work for a while and come help with dinner.

 

Sorry for T/J!

 

I've had to learn to shake off my kids' moods. They can be sulky. So what? I just ignore it. Most days,  I've stopped allowing my emotional equilibrium to depend on how my dd is behaving.

[TammyS]

My dd will stand in my doorway and not leave. If I close the door, she will pound, and if I retreat to another part of the house, she will follow me, just to continue to fight with me.

 

 

 

A little survival home improvement project.  Go to Restore (if you have such a place in your area) and buy a nice, solid wood bedroom door for yourself, or Lowes or some place.  Hang it in your bedroom door frame and add a thick felt gasket, so that the door is snugly in the frame.  This is going to kill most of the noise from her banging on the door (which comes from the fact that most interior doors are hollow and tend to rattle in their frames when banged on).  Next time she follows you around, go in your room, shut and lock the door.  She can bang all she wants (which, I'm guessing, isn't going to be long because little girl hands aren't going to enjoy a solid wood door) but she's not going to make much noise.  You might want to turn on the TV or radio or something.  Or get a pair of ear plugs and read a book.

 

As soon as she stops banging and hollering, open the door and ask her if she's ready to comply.  If she does, fine.  She can get on with it.  If not, say NOTHING. Just shut and lock the door again.  Wait for her to shut up again, then open the door again.  Ask again, etc.  If she gets bored and goes away, fine.  You can come out and proceed as seems best to you at that point.

 

Whatever you, do NOT talk to her through the door.  You want to make it 100% clear that you are not going to be assaulted in your own home.  If she wants to talk about something, she needs to realize it will NEVER happen by her behaving in this way.  She doesn't get any attention until she can behave decently,