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What Do I Do With DS and Math?


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DS is doing Saxon math, with Beast Academy as a supplement.  He catches on to math easily, but when it comes to the tests, I am starting to see careless mistakes all over hell's half acre.  He has never scored beneath an 80 on a Saxon test, and often scores 90-100, but lately (last 6 tests or so), he has scored in the 80s and the mistakes are almost all careless.  Here are examples of the types of mistakes on today's test:  Not recording units, not finishing a multiplication problem (Yup, just dropped it, as if someone slapped the pencil out of his hand.  Yes, he can easily do multiple-digit multiplication), telling me 4 tons = 8 pounds (although when confronted with the mistake, he slapped his forehead and laughed). 

 

How do you correct/prevent these types of silly, careless mistakes?

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i am not a saxon fan, and my first reaction is that maybe he finds saxon boring and unchallenging.  that would actually be expected (by me) in a math talented kid.  It may not work but one approach i would try would be to choose  a more interesting book, like jacobs.  just a suggestion, but go with whatever works.

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I guess my first question would be, why test?  Do you need to?

It sounds like he's bored, and therefore inattentive.  The problem with tests is that you *want* them to be boring, because that means the child has mastered the material.  But then they're, well, boring.  And from a student's perspective, if you're bored because it's easy, why bother to do it?  Isn't this learning thing supposed to be about getting NEW stuff?

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I had similar problems with DD last year using Saxon Alg 1/2. I searched loads of threads here and asked questions.  I was told maturity could be a big reason, and I read that quite a bit too.  Sure enough, looking back, I see more clearly that my DD was in a fog, hitting puberty, trying hard and just not getting things to connect.  We had a solid year of math struggles over dumb little stuff that was super confusing because she knew the math.  It was so frustrating.  She had a huge year of growth and this year she picked up Alg 1 and has done fantastic with no more sloppy problems.  

 

Granted, everyone is different and this may not be the issue for you, but it's a possibility?

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I test because I do not have confidence that I can adequately assess his progress otherwise.  I would not feel comfortable not testing for this reason.  He might be bored; I can see that.  But when I try to push Beast Academy a bit more, he says it's "hard".  That, and the fact that BA doesn't have assessments for my own comfort, prevent me from switching to BA.  Although I could consider Jacobs, like previous poster suggested.

I guess my first question would be, why test?  Do you need to?

It sounds like he's bored, and therefore inattentive.  The problem with tests is that you *want* them to be boring, because that means the child has mastered the material.  But then they're, well, boring.  And from a student's perspective, if you're bored because it's easy, why bother to do it?  Isn't this learning thing supposed to be about getting NEW stuff?

 

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Is this mastery based or spiral.  Just wondering, although it seems DS can handle either.

i am not a saxon fan, and my first reaction is that maybe he finds saxon boring and unchallenging.  that would actually be expected (by me) in a math talented kid.  It may not work but one approach i would try would be to choose  a more interesting book, like jacobs.  just a suggestion, but go with whatever works.

 

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Definitely a possibility.  He's 10 1/2 and is starting to show the slightest bit of a hint of zits on his face, along with BO if he doesn't use deodorant.  But at his last checkup in September, ped said "not yet" regarding puberty.

I had similar problems with DD last year using Saxon Alg 1/2. I searched loads of threads here and asked questions.  I was told maturity could be a big reason, and I read that quite a bit too.  Sure enough, looking back, I see more clearly that my DD was in a fog, hitting puberty, trying hard and just not getting things to connect.  We had a solid year of math struggles over dumb little stuff that was super confusing because she knew the math.  It was so frustrating.  She had a huge year of growth and this year she picked up Alg 1 and has done fantastic with no more sloppy problems.  

 

Granted, everyone is different and this may not be the issue for you, but it's a possibility?

 

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When my kids understood the concepts but were making sloppy mistakes, I'd pick out ten problems from the page of homework (some from the beginning, some from the middle, some from the end.)  I'd tell them that if they got them all right, they were done with math for the day.  If even one was wrong, they had to go back and do the whole page.  This cured their sloppiness pretty quickly!

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I wouldn't tell him what he did wrong -- I would mark the test with right/wrong, then tell him (for example) 1, 6, and 9 are wrong. Re-do them on a separate sheet of paper. It should quickly become less work to check it in the first place than to have to do the same problems twice.

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I started doing "math challenges" with my dc, where I do 5 questions of their questions and they pick 5 of their questions and we see who makes fewer mistakes. It was a real eye opener for me. It's so easy to make those obvious little errors. After several days we all got better. 

 

With the answer book in hand correcting the children's errors, it seems completely clear where the errors are, but when actually doing the questions the errors don't pop out at you as obviously. It got me reflecting on why I tended to automatically help with their writing editing and expected errors, but didn't offer the same grace with math.

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When my kids understood the concepts but were making sloppy mistakes, I'd pick out ten problems from the page of homework (some from the beginning, some from the middle, some from the end.)  I'd tell them that if they got them all right, they were done with math for the day.  If even one was wrong, they had to go back and do the whole page.  This cured their sloppiness pretty quickly!

 

When my 4th grader  makes sloppy mistakes, I sometimes use this strategy. It's funny you mentioned the half-finished multiplication problem. We had one of those yesterday! :) We also had something similar to 4 cups = 5 Tons, or whatever, and she did the same thing -- "Oh. Duh." I do think it's the age. Flaky....

 

I wouldn't tell him what he did wrong -- I would mark the test with right/wrong, then tell him (for example) 1, 6, and 9 are wrong. Re-do them on a separate sheet of paper. It should quickly become less work to check it in the first place than to have to do the same problems twice.

 

I do this, but with a twist. If it's clear that her mind was elsewhere, at times I have simply put the number of errors at the top of the lesson or test, like so -- ERRORS: (minus)(number). I do not mark where they are. This means she has to find them. Some are obvious, like half-finished (or completely blank!) problems. Hello! Others require her to redo problems to find the errors. This really does seem to increase her concentration for subsequent lessons. My thought is, if we're working on new material and she seems to need more support, I'll offer it. But if it's sloppy work on review material she should have mastered, then she should have no trouble finding where she went off-track.

 

I agree with Wintermom, though. It's easy to make those "little" errors when we do the problems without the answer key!  :blushing:  I like your idea, Wintermom. I'm going to do this. Thanks for posting.

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I do this, but with a twist. If it's clear that her mind was elsewhere, at times I have simply put the number of errors at the top of the lesson or test, like so -- ERRORS: (minus)(number). I do not mark where they are. This means she has to find them. Some are obvious, like half-finished (or completely blank!) problems. Hello! Others require her to redo problems to find the errors. This really does seem to increase her concentration for subsequent lessons. My thought is, if we're working on new material and she seems to need more support, I'll offer it. But if it's sloppy work on review material she should have mastered, then she should have no trouble finding where she went off-track.

 

I like this even better than my suggestion. 

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He catches on to math easily, but when it comes to the tests, I am starting to see careless mistakes all over hell's half acre.  He has never scored beneath an 80 on a Saxon test, and often scores 90-100, but lately (last 6 tests or so), he has scored in the 80s and the mistakes are almost all careless.  Here are examples of the types of mistakes on today's test:  Not recording units, not finishing a multiplication problem (Yup, just dropped it, as if someone slapped the pencil out of his hand.  

 

Hmmmm...are you sure you're not talking about MY son?   :tongue_smilie: My personal favorite is when he makes a mistake because he can't read his own handwriting.   :001_unsure:   

 

I think it's the age (mine would be in 6th grade).

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Yes, I've taken to doing this, and he usually finds his mistakes right away that way.

I wouldn't tell him what he did wrong -- I would mark the test with right/wrong, then tell him (for example) 1, 6, and 9 are wrong. Re-do them on a separate sheet of paper. It should quickly become less work to check it in the first place than to have to do the same problems twice.

 

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Oh, I haven't tried this yet.  Having to hunt for the errors might be a deterrent against sloppy careless errors!

When my 4th grader  makes sloppy mistakes, I sometimes use this strategy. It's funny you mentioned the half-finished multiplication problem. We had one of those yesterday! :) We also had something similar to 4 cups = 5 Tons, or whatever, and she did the same thing -- "Oh. Duh." I do think it's the age. Flaky....

 

 

I do this, but with a twist. If it's clear that her mind was elsewhere, at times I have simply put the number of errors at the top of the lesson or test, like so -- ERRORS: (minus)(number). I do not mark where they are. This means she has to find them. Some are obvious, like half-finished (or completely blank!) problems. Hello! Others require her to redo problems to find the errors. This really does seem to increase her concentration for subsequent lessons. My thought is, if we're working on new material and she seems to need more support, I'll offer it. But if it's sloppy work on review material she should have mastered, then she should have no trouble finding where she went off-track.

 

I agree with Wintermom, though. It's easy to make those "little" errors when we do the problems without the answer key!  :blushing:  I like your idea, Wintermom. I'm going to do this. Thanks for posting.

 

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I don't know exactly what mastery based and spiral mean, although I have an idea.  I suspect one of the things that makes saxon boring is his spiral approach, since nothing ever goes away even after it is mastered.  I don't see any point in a spirally written book, since it bores the kid who gets it, and you can always read a book spirally if you forget things.  It doesn't have to be forced on you.  The main problems with saxon (as i recall from years ago) are the lack of challenge, and lack of insight offered.  In the book I had the material also looked visually ugly on the page, so there was no appreciation of the elegance of mathematics, or even the joy of  beautiful presentation.  Its strength is the tedious repetition, which for kids who forget easily offers useful reinforcement.

 

I also have given away my copy of Jacobs' algebra after using it with my son 30 years ago, so have forgotten the precise content a bit.  But as I recall, Jacobs' approach is gentle and entertaining, but thorough, with relevant and amusing cartoons for each section, followed by a crystal clear and easy explanation of a concept.  At the end of each chapter there are 3 or 4 sets of problems I think, the first two being routine, to measure basic grasp of the material, followed by a more challenging set and then one short experimental problem that is really interesting and challenging.  A good student would normally do only one of the routine problem sets, followed by the more challenging one and hopefully the really interesting one.  I am visiting my son next week and gave his daughter a new copy, so I will review it, if more recently informed comment is useful. I do recall Jacobs' presentation of variables as open boxes to be filled in instead of just letters to be manipulated was just wonderfully clear, and I used it in my classes afterwards for years.

 

One problem with bright kids who have not been challenged much is they think only weak students find themselves challenged.  By experience they have learned that good students find the (routine) material easy, and they therefore do not enjoy being challenged, it makes them question their ability. So they say they are bored at easy material, but when faced with challenging stuff they may say it's too hard.  They mean it's too hard to do easily and they think they are supposed to do everything easily.  

 

As a high school student I actually took the SAT's almost without making any calculation on the margin, doing them (all but one, so embarrassing to me) in my head, because I thought only weak students had to write things down!  Not making written calculation was part of my precious self image.  I cared more about what people thought of my ability, including my self, than about actually learning and being curious.  Every challenging problem was a threat to my image of myself as a strong student. In spite of all my success, I was very insecure about my ability.

 

This is a problem that needs to be dealt with patiently but persistently, or they will never achieve at their own level, and at some point will be very sad to find they are among kids of the same level of giftedness but who have actually achieved far more.  Then they may be so far behind, they may give up in an area where they are actually very talented.

 

If this sounds familiar, maybe others here have advice on dealing with it.

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I've heard of Jacob's algebra, and I even specifically went to our homeschooling store to eyeball it for DD (she will be starting algebra in a few months).  I actually liked the looks of it and am still considering it for DD.  But DS is only in 4th grade and no where near ready for algebra yet, so I have to find something to occupy him until then.  I haven't seen an elementary-level Jacob's book, but maybe I'm passing over one. 

I don't know exactly what mastery based and spiral mean, although I have an idea.  I suspect one of the things that makes saxon boring is his spiral approach, since nothing ever goes away even after it is mastered.  I don't see any point in a spirally written book, since it bores the kid who gets it, and you can always read a book spirally if you forget things.  It doesn't have to be forced on you.  The main problems with saxon (as i recall from years ago) are the lack of challenge, and lack of insight offered.  In the book I had the material also looked visually ugly on the page, so there was no appreciation of the elegance of mathematics, or even the joy of  beautiful presentation.  Its strength is the tedious repetition, which for kids who forget easily offers useful reinforcement.

 

I also have given away my copy of Jacobs' algebra after using it with my son 30 years ago, so have forgotten the precise content a bit.  But as I recall, Jacobs' approach is gentle and entertaining, but thorough, with relevant and amusing cartoons for each section, followed by a crystal clear and easy explanation of a concept.  At the end of each chapter there are 3 or 4 sets of problems I think, the first two being routine, to measure basic grasp of the material, followed by a more challenging set and then one short experimental problem that is really interesting and challenging.  A good student would normally do only one of the routine problem sets, followed by the more challenging one and hopefully the really interesting one.  I am visiting my son next week and gave his daughter a new copy, so I will review it, if more recently informed comment is useful. I do recall Jacobs' presentation of variables as open boxes to be filled in instead of just letters to be manipulated was just wonderfully clear, and I used it in my classes afterwards for years.

 

One problem with bright kids who have not been challenged much is they think only weak students find themselves challenged.  By experience they have learned that good students find the (routine) material easy, and they therefore do not enjoy being challenged, it makes them question their ability. So they say they are bored at easy material, but when faced with challenging stuff they may say it's too hard.  They mean it's too hard to do easily and they think they are supposed to do everything easily.  

 

As a high school student I actually took the SAT's almost without making any calculation on the margin, doing them (all but one, so embarrassing to me) in my head, because I thought only weak students had to write things down!  Not making written calculation was part of my precious self image.  I cared more about what people thought of my ability, including my self, than about actually learning and being curious.  Every challenging problem was a threat to my image of myself as a strong student. In spite of all my success, I was very insecure about my ability.

 

This is a problem that needs to be dealt with patiently but persistently, or they will never achieve at their own level, and at some point will be very sad to find they are among kids of the same level of giftedness but who have actually achieved far more.  Then they may be so far behind, they may give up in an area where they are actually very talented.

 

If this sounds familiar, maybe others here have advice on dealing with it.

 

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