Apples and Pears Spelling questions

[diaperjoys]

We're just getting started with Apples and Pears with our 9yo. He tested into book A, level 40, and we're currently doing a level a day. It is a ton of writing for him, and he really dislikes it, but we're getting through it by doing one page at a time and doing other subjects in between each page. He has only made one or two mistakes in an entire week of assignments, so it just seems like mindless copywork to him. And, really, it just seems too easy. I'm not sure if I should jump him ahead, or just combine lessons and let him skip some sections? The program asks him to write most new material three times - trace, copy, and then write from dictation. But he can already write the sentence perfectly, so it seems terribly tedious to him. Any ideas about where to go from here?

 

Also - when I purchased the program I didn't realize that it was also grammar/punctuation. Is it sufficient for grammar, or should I do a dedicated grammar program alongside?

 

 

[freesia]

We only do half a lesson four times a week. I wouldn't skip ahead if he tested into that level. I don't do other copy work, but I do do other grammar starting in fourth grade.

 

With the copy then dictate words , sometimes, if I know it's a spelling rule dc know well, skip the copying and go straight to the dictation.

[Loowit]

Apples and Pears are the least favorite subject for my boys.  But it is the only thing that has worked for my 12 year old.  We work through about a half a lesson at a time.  It was a lot of writing for my oldest who has fine motor delays.

 

I do not use this in place of a grammar program.  It teaches very basic sentence structure like punctuation and when to use capitol letters.  It does not teach parts of speech like verbs, nouns, and so on.

[sbgrace]

I have never, even in 5th grade, done a whole lesson a day. We would do 1/2 a lesson, and sometimes even 1/3, each day.  I allowed some oral work in book A. If this isn't challenging him, I think that is a possibility. When you get to challenging material, I would stop oral work. But some oral spelling didn't seem to hurt us. In fact, with my weak speller, it even helps. I would have him close his eyes and visualize words that were difficult for him. He would then spell aloud. Then he would visualize and spell backward, and finally forward again.

 

I wouldn't want it to be intolerable for him. So I would slow your pace to 1/2 a page with some oral work for the easy sections, and perhaps even go to 1/3 a page when it gets more difficult.

 

I probably wouldn't skip material, unless you think he placed lower than he is in actuality.

 

It can't double as a grammar program.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[freesia]

I have never, even in 5th grade, done a whole lesson a day. We would do 1/2 a lesson, and sometimes even 1/3, each day. I allowed some oral work in book A. If this isn't challenging him, I think that is a possibility. When you get to challenging material, I would stop oral work. But some oral spelling didn't seem to hurt us. In fact, with my weak speller, it even helped. I would have him close his eyes and visualize words that were difficult for him. He would then spell aloud. Then he would visualize and spell backward, and finally forward again. I wouldn't want it to be intolerable for him.

We also do the spell backward and forward spelling.

[Momling]

I started my daughter at book b and soon realized she's more advanced than I had thought. I made a deal that if she got the dictated sentence or list of words correctly (including punctuation and capitalization), she doesn't need to repeat it. I also sometimes swap words I know she struggles with for some of their words.

[...................]

I personally would not jump ahead.... These early books are laying a strong foundation for later.  Also, you CANNOT judge by how many mistakes he made, because the entire program is designed for so much "over-learning" (ie repetition) that the student won't make many mistakes.  It is designed for students to be and feel successful, and for that to stick, long term.

 

If you really think it's too easy, you should use the placement/mastery tests, instead.  In that case, you just read the instructions in the TM and it tells you how to use them, and then it tells you what lesson to go back to.  That would be an accurate assessment, and then you could skip ahead if needed.  

[MamaChicken]

We started at the end of A with DS11 this year.  He struggled with the amount of writing, and the dry presentation, at first, but it has improved his spelling dramatically.  If I knew he could already spell or write something, I just had him do it once.  It was starting to seem very easy for him around the second assessment test in Level B, so when I gave him the assessment, I went ahead and gave him the next one (10 lessons later), which he passed without missing any words.  I think that A&P truly changed the way he was thinking about spelling, above and beyond the specific words and rules he had learned.  We skipped those 10 lessons and he's been doing fine.

I agree that there should be very few mistakes.  The program is designed that way.  

[Haiku]

Also - when I purchased the program I didn't realize that it was also grammar/punctuation. Is it sufficient for grammar, or should I do a dedicated grammar program alongside?

 

Apples and Pears is not a grammar program. It is a remedial spelling program for kids with dyslexia. It is not in any way a substitute for grammar.

 

Personally, I would find it very surprising if a non-dyslexic 9 year old were in book A of Apples and Pears. If he's finding it too easy, then it's either the wrong program for him or you have him at the wrong level. But keep in mind that the program was not designed for kids who grasp spelling easily. it was designed for kids who struggle to cement phonemes and morphemes and spelling patterns, so that is why there is so much repetition.

[diaperjoys]

Thanks to all of you for your great suggestions. I went ahead and re-tested him this morning, and he easily tested out of the next 20 levels. This kiddo passed his dyslexia screening, yet has many dyslexia-like traits. We were told that he has a sight reading vocabulary of a sixth grader, yet we see him ineffectively sounding out new words, skipping, and generally making a muddle of unfamiliar material. He is quite able to memorize a spelling list, but doesn't carry that spelling over into his other work. I suspect he won't be using the apples/pears & fast track systems very long, but I think they will cement his decoding skills, and like a previous poster, I think (hope) it will change the way he is thinking about spelling, and help him to bring together the skill fragments into a usable whole.

[diaperjoys]

Apples and Pears is not a grammar program. It is a remedial spelling program for kids with dyslexia. It is not in any way a substitute for grammar.

 

 

Yes, I purchased it looking for remedial spelling. But when it arrived, the new cover calls it "The one-stop programme for spelling, punctuation and grammar." And that description came as a surprise to me. Level A doesn't have what I'd consider adequate grammar coverage, but I was wondering if the later levels covered that more thoroughly. Sounds pretty iffy to me, so at this point I'm planning on including another grammar program in our school week.

[Haiku]

Yes, I purchased it looking for remedial spelling. But when it arrived, the new cover calls it "The one-stop programme for spelling, punctuation and grammar." 

 

Oh, that's weird. Unless they have revamped it a lot, it does NOT cover grammar or punctuation. Unless, I guess, you consider "Some of these sentences may have a comma, or maybe none of them do. See if you can get it right!" punctuation instruction.  :huh:

 

Weird.  :confused1:

[FO4UR]

I do a page per day. That gets through the series at a book per year or 4 years total.  It also keeps the daily grind super short and sweet.  Also - and maybe most importantly - it spreads the repetition out over a longer period of time. I think less done more often reaps greater retention.  10min, 5 days a week, 36 weeks per year, for 4 years will hopefully take.

 

 

I think some kids could pass the tests but not be able to apply the words in sentence dictations....or maybe that's just my kids...

 

 

I'd err on the side of having spelling be easy for a while.

[Amy Jo]

My son is 12 1/2 and we are doing one lesson per day currently (book A). It is fairly easy for him right now, but he tested into this level and I'm trusting the process. I've seen Dancing Bears work -- it looks so simple on the surface, but it is more than the simple word lists and funny stories it appears to be. I'm assuming Apples and Pears is the same, that it is laying a foundation for things my son needs to internalize.

 

It's good to know that I can slow down later on if needed.

 

And I *think* they mean usage in book A as far as grammar. I'm pretty sure the later books include word roots, so perhaps more grammar is taught later? It probably also depends on age - what is adequate grammar for a 3rd grader is not for a 7th grader.

[attaboygirl]

My DD11 is in Book B of A&P, and it seems like there is a bit more usage instruction than I was expecting. It's teeny-tiny bites of teaching, and it's done in the same "over learning" way that the spelling is done, but hey, punctuation is a parallel weakness for her, so I guess it's a good approach. So far, I haven't seen true grammar teaching, but we're relatively early in the book.

 

As far as the spelling instruction goes, I'm thoroughly happy with A&P. My DD is not magically "cured" of spelling problems, but she's SO MUCH more legible these days. She's a fantastic writer, but geez it was hard to read her work until just recently. Now I don't have to work so hard at decoding her spelling inventions, so we're getting somewhere.