No School in Two Years

[texasmama]

The obvious difference, of course, is that the schools are not failing to provide regular, daily instruction.  There's all the difference in the world between consistently trying things that make sense and having them not work (not what's going on with the family in question) and doing nothing at all (exactly what's going on with the family in question.)   Doing nothing at all is criminal. Just because a child might fall through the cracks in ps is no reason to not report someone who is choosing not to educate their child when the law requires them to.

The state of Texas has very minimal standards for home educators, which are viewed as "private schools".  That is not to mean NO standards. 

 

This family is not doing "nothing at all", just doing an inadequate job which will lead to no good outcomes if continued.  It takes more than that to get involvement from the authorities.

 

You are I are in agreement that this family is failing their children, but I am saying, as someone with intimate knowledge of the inside of the CPS system, that this case would not likely even receive any action at all.  My point all along in this particular piece of the argument is that "calling CPS" will not likely help anything so Chelli is like Obi Wan Kenobi, the family's only hope.  (There may be other concerned citizens involved, but no one has acted as Chelli is, it doesn't seem.)

 

The last two calls I made to CPS as a mandatory reporter were not even investigated.  And they should have been.  They were more concrete and reliable (with me as a reporter rather than a general citizen) and serious in terms of actual physical risk of harm to the children involved than the case of the OP's friend.  One involved a 10 year old who had received a beating with a belt by a stepfather which left marks that I observed during a therapy session with the child.  Never investigated.  And CPS is well aware that a stepfather physically abusing a child holds a moderately high risk.  If the child had been younger, I think it would have been investigated. 

[8circles]

Where do you come up with the first sentence I bolded? It boggles my mind that you think the prevailing thought on this board is that children are not people with basic human rights.

 

It is so insulting to the posters here.

 

If a fly came along, it could lay eggs in my mouth and I'd be MaggotMouth in a few days because my mouth is just hanging open in disbelief.

 

I wouldn't say it's prevailing but it isn't uncommon.  

[unsinkable]

Educational neglect is a crime in all 50 states.  Children are as entitled to an adequate education as they are adequate food, clothing, shelter and medical care.  This woman and her husband are criminals. If your kitchen is as bad as hers was described as up thread, it's a threat to health.  That's child endangerment.  We remove animals from homes like that.

 

Not reporting it is the same as not reporting that a child is being denied enough food.

 

Is CPS dealing with even worse cases of abuse and neglect?  Yes.  Are they overburdened as it is?  Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that a child is being educationally neglected and the parents are criminals.  Someone defacing my property isn't as bad a someone else being raped or murdered, but it's illegal none the less and perfectly appropriate to report it to law enforcement and they should investigate and prosecute as appropriate.

 

This is an aside...but instead of inspiring me to dust or wash my floor...a few days ago, this thread inspired me to look up educational neglect in my state. It was mostly directed to students in schools. There was one paragraph (out of pages) on homeschooling which directed back to the homeschooling laws, the basic laws that apply to all homeschooling families.

 

So my 'take' on it was that IF this family was here, and someone reported them for educational neglect, their reporting school would be contacted. And then, I am assuming their paperwork and testing would be looked up, etc. They'd have a certain length of time to become compliant. Because here, it's *the family does this within X time and then the district responds during Y time*. So if the district has nothing, they'd have to contact the family and the family would have to get on the ball and submit their paperwork.

[happypamama]

 

 

My understanding is that it is even worse in Pennsylvania.

 

 

No, you could totally game the system here in PA. First, the parent sets the child's grade. Testing is required in grades 3, 5, and 8, but you can skip third grade, or call your kid a fourth grader twice, or whatever, and totally skip testing. Nothing says the child has to be a certain grade at a certain age, and not having to register until age eight gives a lot of flexibility about grade.

 

Did your kids run around the yard several days out of the years? Boom, they did PE, and you can check 180 days of school off on a chart because you have now met the letter of the law. Math is required but not every year, and if you bring three samples of math work to your evaluator, that might be a sample, or it might be all the math your kid did all year, and the evaluator has no way of knowing. Same with science, etc. Actually, you could watch one Magic School Bus video for your entirety of science, and they can't tell you that doesn't count. You could make the case that progress has occurred because they now have been introduced to new science topics, and so on. You can switch evaluators yearly, and the school can't tell you you can't. If the school argues the evaluator's letter, the onus is on the school to take you to court, and they have to justify that cost to the taxpayers. And now it's even easier because the district will only get the letter from the evaluator; the school won't even see the actual portfolio, and some evaluator's are stricter than others. All this oversight and hoop-jumping, and it's still possible to be a total slacker and still find *something* to put in the portfolio. (It's very possible to be a high quality unschooler here in PA too, but that's not what I'm discussing.)

[Catwoman]

My training in this regard is crystal clear. If the mother says to me, "We haven't done any school work in two years." That's actionable.

 

Unschooling is technically illegal in Michigan. Most people do not realize this. You are required to be able to produce proof that you have addressed throughout the school year and made progress in mathematics, grammar, writing, spelling, reading, civics/social studies, and science. Period. If you successfully unschool, you still need to keep some books and physical work around that shows progress because in both Macomb County and Traverse, unschooled students have been found truant, and parents have sat in the hot seat for it. Just because homeschooling is legal in your state, that doesn't mean every method of education has been embraced as legitimate by the state.

 

Four or five years of Alpha MUS is not progress. This will get one a date in family court.

 

If the mother said this to me and she were a resident of this state, I would face breaking the law to NOT report her. Her statement is one of extreme truancy.

 

We don't get the luxury of making judgment calls when such statements are made by the parent or guardian or the child for that matter.

 

My understanding is that it is even worse in Pennsylvania.

 

That is very unpopular on this board because again, the prevailing thought tends to be that children are not people with basic human rights. But, it simply is not legally so, and some of us would not be willing to put our own behind in a sling because someone else doesn't want to follow the law.

 

I would not report based on what the Sunday School teacher said. That's hearsay. If the child said, "I haven't done school work in two years." I have to report. If the mother says, "We have not done school in two years, there are maggots in my sink, and I throw away the dishes because there is more mold than I care to wash." I have to report. I don't get the option to try to figure out if it's hyperbole, or flat out lie for attention or whatever. I simply have to report.

 

Her husband, in this case is not a mandatory reporter due to spousal privilege. He would be for other families.

Do you seriously believe the bolded part of your post that I quoted? :glare:

 

I think that is incredibly insulting to the members of this forum.

 

And I feel sorry for anyone who likes and trusts you enough to admit to you that she is having a problem and needs help, if your only "legal" solution is to report your own friend after she has confided in you and asked you for help.

[Catwoman]

Where do you come up with the first sentence I bolded? It boggles my mind that you think the prevailing thought on this board is that children are not people with basic human rights.

 

It is so insulting to the posters here.

 

If a fly came along, it could lay eggs in my mouth and I'd be MaggotMouth in a few days because my mouth is just hanging open in disbelief.

:iagree:

 

I posted almost the same thing a minute ago, before I finished reading the rest of the posts. :)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

FM, I don't think this board disbelieves in children's rights, either. I think we are very harsh on public schools, homeschools, and parents who aren't up to our standards. We err on the side of being quick to spot motes in people's eyes, at least the Hive Mind. I think we hear the other voices around the periphery, in lots of threads I'll grant you, but the Hive Mind is a Queen Bee for a reason. We know how everybody should raise their children and we are harsh on those who don't provide what we think children need.

 

As to laws, in my state where the laws and political climate around hs'ing are similar to those of Texas, Chelli's friend's situation wouldn't get much attention from CPS. I think because our states are similar in these ways texasmama and I keep saying the same things in this thread.

 

Hs'ers in Ohio are under tougher laws, but I know of an entire cohort that went together to retain the services of corrupt examiners. These officials are qualified by the state to approve portfolios, etc. but believe the laws to be onerous toward Christians, so they'll just lie and declare everybody to be wonderful. Laws are only as good as the people following them and the people enforcing them.

 

 

[FaithManor]

Where do you come up with the first sentence I bolded? It boggles my mind that you think the prevailing thought on this board is that children are not people with basic human rights.

 

It is so insulting to the posters here.

 

If a fly came along, it could lay eggs in my mouth and I'd be MaggotMouth in a few days because my mouth is just hanging open in disbelief.

Actually, it is based on years of hanging out here and every time the subject comes up of reporting neglect, the bulk of the responses are usually "don't report", and support for the non schooling parent.

 

That is where it comes from...it's been like this a long time. We've hashed, and hashed this subject before over the years but so often when it comes down to the legality of the situation, there is no support for reporting extreme educational neglect despite it being illegal in all 50 states.

 

What is the logical conclusion then? That education is not viewed as a fundamental right of the child.

 

I will however go and delete my post to spare any further discussion of it.

[HS Mom in NC]

The state of Texas has very minimal standards for home educators, which are viewed as "private schools".  That is not to mean NO standards. 

 

This family is not doing "nothing at all", just doing an inadequate job which will lead to no good outcomes if continued.  It takes more than that to get involvement from the authorities.

 

You are I are in agreement that this family is failing their children, but I am saying, as someone with intimate knowledge of the inside of the CPS system, that this case would not likely even receive any action at all.  My point all along in this particular piece of the argument is that "calling CPS" will not likely help anything so Chelli is like Obi Wan Kenobi, the family's only hope.  (There may be other concerned citizens involved, but no one has acted as Chelli is, it doesn't seem.)

 

The last two calls I made to CPS as a mandatory reporter were not even investigated.  And they should have been.  They were more concrete and reliable (with me as a reporter rather than a general citizen) and serious in terms of actual physical risk of harm to the children involved than the case of the OP's friend.  One involved a 10 year old who had received a beating with a belt by a stepfather which left marks that I observed during a therapy session with the child.  Never investigated.  And CPS is well aware that a stepfather physically abusing a child holds a moderately high risk.  If the child had been younger, I think it would have been investigated. 

Again, just because CPS might not follow up, is no reason to remain silent.  This family is guilty of 2 years’ worth of educational neglect for their school aged child.  That's a crime in every state. 

 

I live in a state with very very little regulation for homeschoolers.  We still prosecute people for educational neglect.

 

In the Alpha book with a 10 year old is nothing at all in math.  That's educational neglect. She's not neglecting a second language, fine arts, etc.  She's not doing math.

[texasmama]

Again, just because CPS might not follow up, is no reason to remain silent.  This family is guilty of 2 years’ worth of educational neglect for their school aged child.  That's a crime in every state. 

 

I live in a state with very very little regulation for homeschoolers.  We still prosecute people for educational neglect.

 

In the Alpha book with a 10 year old is nothing at all in math.  That's educational neglect. She's not neglecting a second language, fine arts, etc.  She's not doing math.

Whether or not the OP reports to CPS is up to her own determination based on her interpretation of the state laws. That is (to state the obvious) not mutually exclusive to offering assistance. 

 

I have never known anyone prosecuted for educational neglect.  Not that it has never happened, but it is evidently not likely in this state.

 

I feel like we are splitting hairs at this point.

 

I am very much a pragmatist.  CPS will not act in this matter.  So I support the OP acting because she is actually in a position to be of assistance.

 

If you were this lady's friend, you would call CPS.  But it is almost certain that no help would come from that call in Texas.  I cannot speak for other states.

[HS Mom in NC]

 

And I feel sorry for anyone who likes and trusts you enough to admit to you that she is having a problem and needs help, if your only "legal" solution is to report your own friend after she has confided in you and asked you for help.

 

That's not an accurate portrayal of the family in question.  The mother has said she hasn't done anything with her 10 year old school aged child for 2 years.  Normal, mentally stable people run into problems along the way and seek out advice and help LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before 2 years tick slowly by.  They may delay for a few months if they plan on making it up by schooling year round.  They may choose the "no formal schooling until age 8" option if it's legal in their state.  (It is in mine.) But those things are not the case in this situation. 

 

They may choose a math curriculum and do it 3-5 days a week, see it isn't clicking after a semester or a year and ask for suggestions about:

 

1) A different approach

 

Saxon or Math U See or Singapore for more hands on, concrete teaching

Life of Fred to apply abstract concepts in a more real life way

Project based math

Song and or game based math fact memorization

 

 

2) Sign of Learning Disabilities

 

Indicators of processing problems or other LDs

 

3) Developmental Ranges

 

Ideas and resources for doing more hands on real life math and waiting another year or so with symbolic math if their child shows signs of delayed development

 

That's what the vast majority of IRL and board members do when they have struggles.  They don't do nothing for years and tell themselves that "working sporadically" at kindergarten/1st grade level math with a 10 year is acceptable. They also ask their pediatrician about diagnosing and dealing with a child that doesn't seem to be neurologically typical.  They don't stick their heads in the sand.

[TammyS]

I have never encountered this kind of situation where so many things need addressing and the parents are in such denial.

 

But there aren't "so many things" that need to be addressed.

 

There are TWO.

 

1. The house needs to be cleaned (I can tell you as someone who grew up in a dirty, sometimes filthy, home, that the many times that we were reported to CPS did nothing to help that situation).

 

2. The mom needs to actually DO homeschooling.  There is nothing that CPS can do for these kids that the mom can't (if she will) do herself about that.

 

 

It's TWO things.  I think, for some reason, that you find one or both of those things so personally horrifying that you are turning it into "so many" things in your mind.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Actually, it is based on years of hanging out here and every time the subject comes up of reporting neglect, the bulk of the responses are usually "don't report", and support for the non schooling parent.

 

That is where it comes from...it's been like this a long time. We've hashed, and hashed this subject before over the years but so often when it comes down to the legality of the situation, there is no support for reporting extreme educational neglect despite it being illegal in all 50 states.

 

What is the logical conclusion then? That education is not viewed as a fundamental right of the child.

 

I will however go and delete my post to spare any further discussion of it.

 

FWIW, I understand why you made that statement and agree with it to some extent.  However, I would say it is more of a subculture of the board than the board as a whole.

[TammyS]

Educational neglect is a crime in all 50 states.  Children are as entitled to an adequate education as they are adequate food, clothing, shelter and medical care.  This woman and her husband are criminals. If your kitchen is as bad as hers was described as up thread, it's a threat to health.  That's child endangerment.  We remove animals from homes like that.

 

Not reporting it is the same as not reporting that a child is being denied enough food.

 

Is CPS dealing with even worse cases of abuse and neglect?  Yes.  Are they overburdened as it is?  Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that a child is being educationally neglected and the parents are criminals.  Someone defacing my property isn't as bad a someone else being raped or murdered, but it's illegal none the less and perfectly appropriate to report it to law enforcement and they should investigate and prosecute as appropriate.

 

Not every "crime" needs to be reported.  Particularly where the "criminals" are making an effort to address the issue.  Turning to the government should be the last step, not the first.

[*Lulu*]

I have to say, I think at this stage I'm more terrified of the homeschool mom police than I am of the government!

As well you should be.

 

I didn't spend months reading about ancient warfare with Punk without picking up a few tips!

[texasmama]

My gut on this:  Mom feels pressured to home educate the children due to religious reasons, but she does not want to or feel able to, etc.  So she does a crappy job.  I don't think she is clinically depressed since she has the energy to run blogs and do public speaking.    Her life doesn't really work for her or use her strengths or fulfill her so she does a crap job with the stuff she doesn't like or really want to do and steps up to the plate with the speaking/blogging because, due to her dh or her religious culture, there are no other legitimate options offered her for the education of the children and she wants to have some sort of fulfillment.  She may also not really want to be an at home parent or to have as many kids as she has, but that might be influenced by her religious culture, as well.

 

<stepping out on a limb, filling in details, and mindreading here>

 

ETA:  The problem is systemic. cultural, and complex, more than just tiredness or depression or lack of good curriculum.

[texasmama]

I have to say, I think at this stage I'm more terrified of the homeschool mom police than I am of the government! 

I could kick your butt, Sadie, and I know you are well aware of this.  ;)

[texasmama]

As well you should be.

 

I didn't spend months reading about ancient warfare with Punk without picking up a few tips!

And if they don't home educate properly, we will cut their heads off as a sacrifice to the gods and roll them down a long, stone ramp as the minions cheer.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I have to say, I think at this stage I'm more terrified of the homeschool mom police than I am of the government!

Don't be scared of me. Due to this thread, another thread, and a FB conversation last week with a real homeschool hater who wants us all locked up, I'm wearing my Educational Anarchist t-shirt and writing (another) manifesto.

[zoobie]

My gut on this: Mom feels pressured to home educate the children due to religious reasons, but she does not want to or feel able to, etc. So she does a crappy job. I don't think she is clinically depressed since she has the energy to run blogs and do public speaking. Her life doesn't really work for her or use her strengths or fulfill her so she does a crap job with the stuff she doesn't like or really want to do and steps up to the plate with the speaking/blogging because, due to her dh or her religious culture, there are no other legitimate options offered her for the education of the children and she wants to have some sort of fulfillment. She may also not really want to be an at home parent or to have as many kids as she has, but that might be influenced by her religious culture, as well.

 

<stepping out on a limb, filling in details, and mindreading here>

 

ETA: The problem is systemic. cultural, and complex, more than just tiredness or depression or lack of good curriculum.

I think there may be some mental illness at play other than depression. From reading three posts and having no degree that qualifies me to make such a diagnosis, lol.

[unsinkable]

And if they don't home educate properly, we will cut their heads off as a sacrifice to the gods and roll them down a long, stone ramp as the minions cheer.

 

Minions! I like minions!

 

(has anyone else seen this vine of the little girl in her different minion outfits?)

 

found it! (I need another baby...)

 

http://www.vineroulette.com/v/I-like-Minions-minions-minionaddiction-DespicableMe-MurIibMILzF

[*Lulu*]

And if they don't home educate properly, we will cut their heads off as a sacrifice to the gods and roll them down a long, stone ramp as the minions cheer.

Don't forget the mummification. If we are going to take a day off seat work for an execution we had better make it of educational value.

[texasmama]

I think there may be some mental illness at play other than depression. From reading three posts and having no degree that qualifies me to make such a diagnosis, lol.

If I squint really hard and turn my head to one side, I can see this.  It is option number two in my book, though.  My money is on option number one, since we are now evidently laying bets.

 

<it goes downhill so quickly with the likes of us>

[*Lulu*]

I could kick your butt, Sadie, and I know you are well aware of this. ;)

She wouldn't even bother to gird up her yoga pants first.

[Sahamamama]

As you describe this, no, I would not go to any special lengths to help her put things in order. If it were me, I would be ready to simply say, "The main thing that makes hsing work in my family is just getting up every day with the decision to DO it. It's not really about how organized the room is or whether or not the curriculum is ideal. It's just the daily chipping away at math, at reading, and so on, that gets it done."

 

:iagree: That is so true! The daily chipping away... I'm using that. :laugh: It's March 4th, and as gray (grey) as a day could possibly be. We chipped away on Monday, we chipped away on Tuesday, we chipped away today, we'll chip away tomorrow. On Friday, my parents are coming, which means we'll chip away at school on Saturday. I need to hear this, Quill. I am so ready for spring. I keep telling the girls that when spring finally does come, we'll be glad we did our work through the Deep Gloom of January, February, and March. We'll take a family hike and see the crocuses and daffodils. I can hardly wait!

[Reefgazer]

I'm generally a hands off kind of person when it comes to these things, but this post made me rethink my attitude about that to the some extent.

 

 

quote name="Sahamamama" post="6221751" timestamp="1425486283"]

 

I absolutely agree, but it's hard to know what to do or say when a parent states something like, "I got out MUS Alpha for [child's name, a 10 year old] the other day, and told her that she could do it, if she wants to." And that is the extent of that "homeschooling" parent's involvement in her daughter's learning for the year! I did ask, "Do you require her to do anything?" and the answer was no. So here's a 10 year old who cannot add, cannot subtract, let alone multiply, divide, measure, tell time, count money, or work with fractions. I never do know what to do with this situation. I do wonder, "Why is she telling me this?" I conclude it's just conversation in this case, with my acquaintance.

 

Chelli, I went back and skimmed most of the nine or ten pages of this thread, and I have come to a somewhat different conclusion (than what I posted above). What do you and this person have in common, really? If she was someone you saw regularly, were thrown in with regularly, someone who lived close by, and you had other values in common, it might be worth the effort to work on the friendship and see if you can help these children. But in light of the rest of the picture of this family's lifestyle and laziness (IMO), why bother? Seriously, why bother? Since the entire picture is one of your friend (and her husband) being simply too lazy to clean their house or wash their dishes or teach their children to write, read, or do basic math -- or whatever -- what difference will your investment make? It's like pouring water in a sieve, IME.

 

If the situation involves illness or disability or other extenuating circumstances, then you can make allowances for that, but the children still ought to have a right to learn. And, (IMO) it's possible to keep a home in a healthy and orderly way. People just have to grow up and do it. Same with homeschooling. Either do it, or put the kids in school. Good grief.

 

I don't know. If I really wanted to help the children, if I thought that "someone should," then I might take it upon myself to be that someone and report that family. I would probably start with the school system, but it depends on the laws in your state. I don't know, though, we've struggled with this question here, too, in much the same circumstances (filthy house, neurologically typical children way behind in all basic subjects, parents laughing it off for years). What to do? There are no easy answers, honestly.

 

Again, I previously didn't believe that anyone should oversee another person's parenting, and I used to be a social worker. You can go back and search my posts to see that I was very "hands-off" and MYOB a few years ago. But I've changed (I think). I'm still not sure. OTOH, I don't want other people, especially the state, telling me what to do. OTOH, well... I've seen children in my state being truly neglected, educationally, and am almost on the verge of wanting some regulation, for their sake (we currently have none). Nothing drastic or overbearing, like in PA, but just some means of holding parents accountable for meeting, in some way, the basic educational needs of their children.

 

I wonder how a state differentiates between this type of "homeschooling" and truancy? What really is the difference, except for the label the parents are using? I think it's worth noting that the root for "truant" comes from the Old French word for "beggar, vagabond, idler," which is related to an Old Celtic word for "wretched."

 

I'm very politically conservative, but I do think that we all have some "vested interest" in the ability of other people's children to handle adult life when they reach it. Even if only from a purely selfish motive, we have a vested interest in asking, "What are these children going to do to meet their basic needs as adults?" They are going to climb on the back of your hard-working child and get a ride, that's what. They are going to sit up at the farmer's table, as though they grew the food.

 

I'm fulfilling my part as a parent, but other people don't seem to grasp that their children will not be ready to meet adult life when childhood ends. And the question I ask myself is, "Do I have another part to play as a citizen, as a neighbor, as an advocate for uneducated or undereducated children? Or even as my child's parent?"

[Jean in Newcastle]

I could kick your butt, Sadie, and I know you are well aware of this.  ;)

I have a feeling that Sadie can kick butt back.  I suggest a cage fight.  All proceeds will go towards remediating delinquent homeschool moms.  

[texasmama]

Don't be scared of me. Due to this thread, another thread, and a FB conversation last week with a real homeschool hater who wants us all locked up, I'm wearing my Educational Anarchist t-shirt and writing (another) manifesto.

I bought myself a t shirt recently that says "World's Okayest Mom" on it (purple!) so I think I will add your slogan in puffy paint right below it.  Then I will gird my freaking yoga pants, go to the grocery store, and it will be GAME ON.

 

Please note that I have a sticker for my minivan which says "I used to be cool",  and my official homeschool slogan is "Doing it half-a$$ed since 2007".  (Though after reading this thread, I am feeling like I have applied my full a$$.)

[Ausmumof3]

I think the advice to find out the obstacles to her homeschooling as mentioned upthread is spot on. If she wants to educate at home but doesn't have organizational skills, my opinion would be different than if she resents the burden but is taking it on because she feels she has to. There are ways to incorporate learning outside structured textbooks, but many people find a structured, consistent schedule more effective. I know for myself, as much as I'd love to have a structured, consistent schedule, I'm incapable of maintaining it longer than three days. No amount of good advice would work if it required a structured, consistent schedule. I can help with learning math concepts in a more natural setting (through play and exploration), but if she's not interested in that approach, I don't want to waste your time.

I am wondering if you would be interested in sharing your suggestions with others here, who are interested? I have moebius noodles but would love to get more ideas like this...

[texasmama]

I have a feeling that Sadie can kick butt back.  I suggest a cage fight.  All proceeds will go towards remediating delinquent homeschool moms.  

This is the best.idea.ever. 

 

<runs off to train for cage fight with Sadie to benefit a good cause>

[*Lulu*]

I have a feeling that Sadie can kick butt back. I suggest a cage fight. All proceeds will go towards remediating delinquent homeschool moms.

Oh I think Sadie is totally kick butt capable.

 

I just know that TM is evil. She will not hesitate to play dirty. (:P)

[texasmama]

She wouldn't even bother to gird up her yoga pants first.

I just now finally got rid of some that fall down when I run.  It was awkward, I tell you, running down the street with ds12 and the uncivilized dog and falling down pants. 

 

"Enough!", I said and banished them to the Goodwill pile.  Let someone else be pantless.

[texasmama]

Oh I think Sadie is totally kick butt capable.

 

I just know that TM is evil. She will not hesitate to play dirty. ( :p)

Well, yeah!  Imma give her my fall down yoga pants to wear so I can pants her during the cage fight and give myself a big advantage.

[*Lulu*]

I just now finally got rid of some that fall down when I run. It was awkward, I tell you, running down the street with ds12 and the uncivilized dog and falling down pants.

 

"Enough!", I said and banished them to the Goodwill pile. Let someone else be pantless.

Now I'm questioning your Texan cred.

 

You just needed a little duct tape.......

[texasmama]

Now I'm questioning your Texan cred.

 

You just needed a little duct tape.......

Don't question my Texas cred or you get on the cage fighting schedule.  ;)

 

You seem short, too, so I think I can take you...

[ElizabethB]

But where is Judomom, she could probably do some serious butt kicking, even if she was against several people at a time. I did some Judo back in the day but am now out of shape and get allergy induced problems if I overheat myself, so I could maybe kick one person's butt and then I would have to cool down and rest or you would be sticking me with my epi-pen and taking me to the ER.

[sunflowerlady]

I bought myself a t shirt recently that says "World's Okayest Mom" on it (purple!) so I think I will add your slogan in puffy paint right below it.  Then I will gird my freaking yoga pants, go to the grocery store, and it will be GAME ON.

 

Please note that I have a sticker for my minivan which says "I used to be cool",  and my official homeschool slogan is "Doing it half-a$$ed since 2007".  (Though after reading this thread, I am feeling like I have applied my full a$$.)

 

Stealing slogan-changing 2007 to 2004-running away while tripping over yoga pants.  :ph34r:

[*Lulu*]

Don't question my Texas cred or you get on the cage fighting schedule. ;)

 

You seem short, too, so I think I can take you...

5'4" and 1/2, thank you very much.

 

I may be too short to reach the top shelf in my kitchen, but I don't have trouble losing my pants while climbing the counters.

[texasmama]

But where is Judomom, she could probably do some serious butt kicking, even if she was against several people at a time. I did some Judo back in the day but am now out of shape and get allergy induced problems if I overheat myself, so I could maybe kick one person's butt and then I would have to cool down and rest or you would be sticking me with my epi-pen and taking me to the ER.

I only cage fight people whom I can win against, so I refuse Judomom ("Off with her head!") but I will cage fight you.  I will have Jean put you on the schedule. 

[texasmama]

5'4" and 1/2, thank you very much.

 

I may be too short to reach the top shelf in my kitchen, but I don't have trouble losing my pants while climbing the counters.

Short.

 

I'm 5'10" so everyone is short to me, but you really are short.  hehehe 

 

<runs away and holds pants up>

[idnib]

FWIW, I understand why you made that statement and agree with it to some extent.  However, I would say it is more of a subculture of the board than the board as a whole.

 

I also know exactly what Faith is talking about. I've seen it many times on these boards, and I think it's diminished over the years. I can think of one poster in particular who really had that attitude but I have not seen her post here in a long time. Lots of people agreed with her. That attitude was one of several I've seen shift on the boards.

[Tsuga]

I could kick your butt, Sadie, and I know you are well aware of this.  ;)

 

Oooh, Texan Mom vs. Aussie Mom. This should be good!

[Harriet Vane]

I have read the whole thread.

 

I also was personally involved with a family that was not homeschooling.

 

Chelli, your friend's problem is not the curriculum, and I doubt she will respond to homeschooling tips or advice on organization.

 

Your friend is unable to do the work each day. That will only get worse when her baby is born.

 

Your advice should be centered around getting her to DO SOMETHING each day.

 

As such, I would strongly recommend that your friend sign up with an online academy that requires attendance. The fear of that accountability and that deadline is the only motivator that is likely to be compelling to her.

 

The other advantage of an online schooling option is that the kids deal directly with their instructors, not with their mother who is unable to keep up.

 

The kids are still home, being "protected" from the environment of the public school, so that will be more palatable to them.

 

If they balk at the cost, focus the discussion on the fact that training children is their God-given responsibility, and that it will be hard when the baby is born. Suggest the online academy as a temporary measure to get over the hump. It is likely that, once they are doing that type of schooling, they will continue with it because it frees your friend to do the things she wants to do and still feel like she is homeschooling.

 

(This is NOT a commentary on all homeschoolers who use online academies. I have friends who use K12 and Abeka Academy, and they are not slackers. They are involved and hands-on. However, someone who does not want to be hands-on will find it easier to be this way with an online academy.)

 

I would even suggest K12, though she might still perceive that as being from the public schools. If she will perceive it that way, then that suggestion may cause you to lose credibility in her eyes. As such, you might need to confine your suggestions to faith-based online academies.

[ElizabethB]

Being short is an asset in Judo, you get more leverage if you get your center of gravity below someone else's center of gravity, you use people's height and weight against them.

 

(I am 63 1/2 inches BTW, a great height for gymnastics and Judo, actually almost too tall to be a gymnast.)

[Word Nerd]

Well, I'm newish...and I guess all I see if people acknowledging that flexibility is a benefit of home education. Kid not ready to read at 5 ? No worries, try again at 6.

Everyone sick with the flu ? No worries, snuggle up on the lounge and watch documentaries. Etc.

 

I simply do not believe this encourages neglect, unless there are already more serious problems in the family.

 

I doubt anyone believes that doing any of those things encourages neglect, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the thread or this situation.

[brehon]

The state of Texas has very minimal standards for home educators, which are viewed as "private schools". That is not to mean NO standards.

 

This family is not doing "nothing at all", just doing an inadequate job which will lead to no good outcomes if continued. It takes more than that to get involvement from the authorities.

 

You are I are in agreement that this family is failing their children, but I am saying, as someone with intimate knowledge of the inside of the CPS system, that this case would not likely even receive any action at all. My point all along in this particular piece of the argument is that "calling CPS" will not likely help anything so Chelli is like Obi Wan Kenobi, the family's only hope. (There may be other concerned citizens involved, but no one has acted as Chelli is, it doesn't seem.)

 

The last two calls I made to CPS as a mandatory reporter were not even investigated. And they should have been. They were more concrete and reliable (with me as a reporter rather than a general citizen) and serious in terms of actual physical risk of harm to the children involved than the case of the OP's friend. One involved a 10 year old who had received a beating with a belt by a stepfather which left marks that I observed during a therapy session with the child. Never investigated. And CPS is well aware that a stepfather physically abusing a child holds a moderately high risk. If the child had been younger, I think it would have been investigated.

Ayup. I've made several reports where either kids or elderly adults were in danger (either physical for the kids or the elderly lived in absolute filth - think feces smeared everywhere & no food in the house) and CPS/APS (depending) did nothing. So, incredibly frustrating.

 

In TX CPS wouldn't do anything beyond the basic intake report, I think.

[Catwoman]

Actually, it is based on years of hanging out here and every time the subject comes up of reporting neglect, the bulk of the responses are usually "don't report", and support for the non schooling parent.

 

That is where it comes from...it's been like this a long time. We've hashed, and hashed this subject before over the years but so often when it comes down to the legality of the situation, there is no support for reporting extreme educational neglect despite it being illegal in all 50 states.

 

What is the logical conclusion then? That education is not viewed as a fundamental right of the child.

 

I will however go and delete my post to spare any further discussion of it.

I have been here for several years, too, and I haven't seen much of what you have seen, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

There was no need to have removed your post, though! You are as entitled to post your opinion as anyone else here, and I'm sure there are many people who would have agreed with you.

[Guest]

This is probably a moot comment at this point, but as someone who has used MUS for the vast majority of the math education of three children for the past twelve years, if a mom can't figure out how to progress thru MUS, I would wonder if they were sub-mental. Sure - not all curriculum is equally ideal for every family or child, but it could hardly be any easier to implement. The whole reason I chose to use MUS myself is because I have zero aptitude for math and must have something that is very open-and-go and easy to implement. On top of that, it fits nicely into a four-day work week (leaving a day for co-op), which is to say we have not zoomed thru the curriculum at super-speed; nevertheless DS is at a normal level even with this very average pace.

 

All that to say: I would not recommend other curriculum to this mom. If MUS was simply a poor fit for them, she would have figured it out three years ago. If she's still sitting there with Alpha for a 10 yo, either The child has a serious LD or mom has her head up her ass.

[HS Mom in NC]

Not every "crime" needs to be reported.  Particularly where the "criminals" are making an effort to address the issue.  Turning to the government should be the last step, not the first.

 

2 years of not doing school is NOT "making an effort to address the issue."  Neither is doing a level 1 math book for 3 1/2 years.  It just isn't. It's nonsense to claim it is.  We just can't let people off the hook for this kind of thing.

 

I can plainly see that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.  If other people can't see it, that's their problem.  I'm sticking to my guns and stating the obvious no matter how uncomfortable it makes people. These children are entitled to a solid education.  Their parents are failing.  Someone with real authority needs to intervene for their sake.

[Tsuga]

I am pro-reporting in some cases, but given that reporting will probably cut the family off from the reporter (and it will be obvious), and given that CPS likely will not do a lot, since the kids can read well enough to fake it, and the parents are clearly articulate and could give character witnesses, it is much better to take a different approach at the start.

 

I think it's much wiser to leave the family a face-saving out that is honest with their level, rather than put them in a situation where it's either save face or CPS takes over this decision. They will save face so CPS doesn't take over and make Chelli look the fool. Chelli may be willing to take on that role but you get the idea... it's just not as effective as one might think.