What can I do to help my friend? Unfaithful spouse.

[Alicia64]

Get her to talk to an attorney about the implications of relocating. Selling house, liquidating assets... Heck no don't leave the state willingly!

 

And tell her not to leave the house no matter what! A friend who divorced had to live in the house w/ her almost-ex. I forget why, but there was a legal reason for it.

 

Alley

[TammyS]

This is illegal and wrong.

 

First of all, disappearing your kids from their own dad, no matter what a scoundrel he may be acting like at the time, is called kidnapping. It never, ever was a real option.

 

Second of all, my dad was a scoundrel. He was out of our life. My mom never spoke ill of him until she had to to let us know of his drug use. He has finally sought treatment and now I have a dad.

 

Disappearing from him would have denied me that. Aside from sociopathically selfish drug addiction, I am a lot like my dad. I am grateful to have him in my life in spite of everything.

 

OP's friend needs support. She needs to be safe. She needs to get a lawyer and protect her kids.

 

Keeping them from their dad is not an option legally or morally at this point.

 

It's illegal and probably unpractical given the information age, but it's totally moral.  Only in this day and age would someone think it moral to allow children to be around, much less living part-time with, someone openly living with multiple partners. 

[Janie Grace]

I agree with your friend that her dh is having a psychotic break. He is delusional. I have seen this exact situation in a family member. They feel sorry for hurting the spouse but at the same time they cannot let go of the "beautiful relationship" they have outside the marriage. They want the three people to be able to happily coexist so badly that they WILL THIS POSSIBILITY INTO EXISTENCE. It's insanity (thankfully in the case I'm familiar with, the betrayed spouse was strong enough to say h*ll no). Her dh is mentally unstable, he is not truly repentant and she needs to separate from him and get a lawyer. She should urge him as strongly as she can to see a psychiatrist/counselor. Thinking about salvaging the marriage before he is mentally healthy is unwise.

[Seasider]

I agree with everyone else that she shouldn't move.

 

It seems like he is being a typical controlling abuser by trying to separate her from any friends or family who might support her. If he can isolate her, he can control her.

She could certainly justify changing her mind, since her initial agreement to move was under a vastly different set of circumstances.

[Ravin]

Oh, no. This woman must bear at least some of the blame. And guilt. And they have met, so she knows the score.

As the resident polyamorist I have to agree. Healthy polyamory does not involve having to convince a partner's primary that Polyamory is a good idea. That's something both partners in a marriage have to be on board with BEFORE any other relationship begins. This situation is adultery, cheating. Any self-respecting polyamorous person courting a married person doesn't get as far as first base without knowing that spouse is okay with it from the horse's mouth.

[Melinda in VT]

It's illegal and probably unpractical given the information age, but it's totally moral. Only in this day and age would someone think it moral to allow children to be around, much less living part-time with, someone openly living with multiple partners.

Where to start?

 

Polygamy has been and is accepted in many societies. You have read the Old Testament, haven't you?

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm a bit confused (but I'm tired and achy and don't want to backtrack in the thread to find the answers).  I thought that the move was suggested by the husband in order for he and his wife to be together with the girlfriend?  So why would moving be an escape for the wife?  Wouldn't she be moving right into the situation that she wants to escape?  

[8circles]

I get that its confusing. Sorry.

 

They talked about moving after the affair was discovered. He said he the affair was done. She was devastated and didnt think she could start fresh unless they moved. Then (within a matter of weeks) he changed and said he wanted this woman to join them on their move. She is in denial and thinks he could still change his mind and move without the other woman. I think she has convinced herself that moving (without the other woman) is the answer. If they can do that their marriage might survive.

 

I'm a bit confused (but I'm tired and achy and don't want to backtrack in the thread to find the answers). I thought that the move was suggested by the husband in order for he and his wife to be together with the girlfriend? So why would moving be an escape for the wife? Wouldn't she be moving right into the situation that she wants to escape?

[Janie Grace]

I get that its confusing. Sorry.

 

They talked about moving after the affair was discovered. He said he the affair was done. She was devastated and didnt think she could start fresh unless they moved. Then (within a matter of weeks) he changed and said he wanted this woman to join them on their move. She is in denial and thinks he could still change his mind and move without the other woman. I think she has convinced herself that moving (without the other woman) is the answer. If they can do that their marriage might survive.

 

 

Okay, this is helpful. What she needs to understand is that he has backtracked. He is way back at the initial revelation of the affair stage and he is not willing to let it go. He is not choosing her.

 

The way the discovery of an affair goes if a marriage is going to survive is generally something like: unfaithful spouse breaks off all contact with other person, is willing to do anything (like move, quit job) for the sake of the marriage, unfaithful spouse may experience feelings of withdrawal (because the rush of an affair can be compared to addiction) but if he/she wants the marriage to be restored, he/she MUST RESIST TEMPTATION to resume the relationship. Lots of venting, listening, forgiving, talking. Other person must be totally cut off -- change cell number, email address, delete FB, whatever needs to be done to make sure the relationships is OVER. This is the ONLY way to restore trust and have a functional marriage again. 

 

It sounds like her dh got to the withdrawal feelings and decided he can't live without her and is now back to square one. Whether or not he will work to restore the marriage is a complete toss up because he is no longer repentant (repentance is TURNING AWAY). He is not empathetic. He is not walking in her shoes at all.

 

Has she freely expressed what this betrayal feels like? How much she is hurting? Her anger? If she is being super compliant/forgiving out of fear, it could be that he hasn't had the wake up call he needs to realize that he has completely decimated her and the marriage. Can you encourage her to be very open with him about the impact this has had???

[8circles]

Okay, this is helpful. What she needs to understand is that he has backtracked. He is way back at the initial revelation of the affair stage and he is not willing to let it go. He is not choosing her.

 

The way the discovery of an affair goes if a marriage is going to survive is generally something like: unfaithful spouse breaks off all contact with other person, is willing to do anything (like move, quit job) for the sake of the marriage, unfaithful spouse may experience feelings of withdrawal (because the rush of an affair can be compared to addiction) but if he/she wants the marriage to be restored, he/she MUST RESIST TEMPTATION to resume the relationship. Lots of venting, listening, forgiving, talking. Other person must be totally cut off -- change cell number, email address, delete FB, whatever needs to be done to make sure the relationships is OVER. This is the ONLY way to restore trust and have a functional marriage again. 

 

It sounds like her dh got to the withdrawal feelings and decided he can't live without her and is now back to square one. Whether or not he will work to restore the marriage is a complete toss up because he is no longer repentant (repentance is TURNING AWAY). He is not empathetic. He is not walking in her shoes at all.

 

Has she freely expressed what this betrayal feels like? How much she is hurting? Her anger? If she is being super compliant/forgiving out of fear, it could be that he hasn't had the wake up call he needs to realize that he has completely decimated her and the marriage. Can you encourage her to be very open with him about the impact this has had???

This is also helpful.  I'll try to talk to her about this too.  Thank you.

[Liz CA]

There need to be conditions so he realizes he cannot manipulate her into anything and everything.

 

For instance, she could say: you go to counseling immediately, you get an accountability partner (a trustworthy man) who is interested in saving their marriage, attend workshops, do everything Janie Grace suggested - cut off all contact, change all contact info, etc.

 

If he is not doing it or dragging his feet or flat out refusing, she files for separation and he leaves the home. She can give him more time to reconsider before she files for divorce. It sounds harsh, it is probably the most difficult thing a woman has to do but if he gets the impression he calls the shots, it will be an even more painful road.

 

Does she have family close by? IRL support? She also needs to know that there is a chance he'll stay with the other woman - there is no way to predict which way it will go.

 

:grouphug:

[Tsuga]

It's illegal and probably unpractical given the information age, but it's totally moral.  Only in this day and age would someone think it moral to allow children to be around, much less living part-time with, someone openly living with multiple partners. 

 

I disagree.

 

A father is a father and unless he is exposing the children to abuse, bodily or emotional, a lifestyle with multiple partners is not abuse, and it is wrong to take kids away from a parent.

 

The best thing any parent can do in a divorce is let their children remain ignorant of the other parent's foibles for as long as possible, provided those foibles will not seriously harm the children. The #1 thing she can do, in the event of a divorce, is to never speak a word of it to the children (let the priest or a counselor explain it, and tell them "because it's between mommy and daddy, so you know it is not my place to tell you what to think of your dad so the priest will help you think about it") and ensure that they have plenty of time with their dad.

 

Being honest but keeping your romantic issues to yourself while respecting the rights of the other parent is the only moral choice in this situation.

 

This is not new. For generations, if not all of human history, women have let their children observe men in all states, and men let children remain with mothers in all states. This is because no matter what, no matter what we think of the man in this thread, he is their dad. And a dad is a dad and it takes a lot to lose that--far more than it takes to lose a wife.

[LucyStoner]

It's illegal and probably unpractical given the information age, but it's totally moral. Only in this day and age would someone think it moral to allow children to be around, much less living part-time with, someone openly living with multiple partners.

No, it is not moral to lie to your children and tell them their father is dead. A lie is a lie is a lie and that can't even possibly be classified as a little white lie. Imagine the pain and hurt caused by that lie and when that lie was found out. Because family secrets like that almost always come out.

 

Lots of people who are unfaithful to their spouses are successful parents.

 

What you are suggesting is not only immoral, felonious and unethical, it is insanely selfish and judgmental. Unless the children are being abused, they have a right to have a relationship with their father. It is not for the mother to take that from them. I have no sympathy for the father's request at all (if my husband asked me to do this, dude would be gone), but he is still their father and it is not for anyone to take that from them without serious cause.

 

Do not mistake moral outrage with moral courage.

[MrsWeasley]

As the resident polyamorist I have to agree. Healthy polyamory does not involve having to convince a partner's primary that Polyamory is a good idea. That's something both partners in a marriage have to be on board with BEFORE any other relationship begins. This situation is adultery, cheating. Any self-respecting polyamorous person courting a married person doesn't get as far as first base without knowing that spouse is okay with it from the horse's mouth.

 

As soon as the other woman knew the wife didn't want her involved, I agree. I think people are getting stuck on the word polyamory, which I don't recall the original poster saying the husband identified as. Many, many open relationships have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. I'm not saying that's a good idea, just that it's common enough that I think it's plausible for someone to get involved with someone without knowing their partner.

[Ravin]

As soon as the other woman knew the wife didn't want her involved, I agree. I think people are getting stuck on the word polyamory, which I don't recall the original poster saying the husband identified as. Many, many open relationships have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. I'm not saying that's a good idea, just that it's common enough that I think it's plausible for someone to get involved with someone without knowing their partner.

Yeah, let's just say I learned the hard way when young that trusting someone's word that their spouse is okay with it without actually hearing from that spouse in some form is naive and a good way to get hurt and hurt someone else.

 

The situation the OP describes is one not uncommonly come across from newbies to online poly forums looking for info on polyamory because they're trying to salvage their mucked up mess of broken monogamy. The situation the friend's husband wants to set up is a polyamorous one on a superficial level, but it's lacking a basic necessary component-- the willing, uncoerced, happy consent of all parties involved. I think that's why poly came up--he may not be using the word, but it's what the friend's husband appears to want, except he's going about it all wrong. He sounds like a selfish turd.

 

You can't make a tasty apple pie from rotten apples and rancid flour. Nor will it turn out if you have peaches instead of apples.

 

I'm glad she's talking to a lawyer.

 

The advice about shielding the kids and not demonizing their father or alienating him from them is also sound.

[8circles]

Yeah, let's just say I learned the hard way when young that trusting someone's word that their spouse is okay with it without actually hearing from that spouse in some form is naive and a good way to get hurt and hurt someone else.

 

The situation the OP describes is one not uncommonly come across from newbies to online poly forums looking for info on polyamory because they're trying to salvage their mucked up mess of broken monogamy. The situation the friend's husband wants to set up is a polyamorous one on a superficial level, but it's lacking a basic necessary component-- the willing, uncoerced, happy consent of all parties involved. I think that's why poly came up--he may not be using the word, but it's what the friend's husband appears to want, except he's going about it all wrong. He sounds like a selfish turd.

 

You can't make a tasty apple pie from rotten apples and rancid flour. Nor will it turn out if you have peaches instead of apples.

 

I'm glad she's talking to a lawyer.

 

The advice about shielding the kids and not demonizing their father or alienating him from them is also sound.

Thank You, Ravin.  I appreciate your perspective and understanding of this situation.  You are right.

[Joanne]

It's illegal and probably unpractical given the information age, but it's totally moral.  Only in this day and age would someone think it moral to allow children to be around, much less living part-time with, someone openly living with multiple partners. 

 

 

It is not "totally moral" to sever and prevent contact with a non abusive parent based on the relationship of the parents. You should not punish the kids or effectively sever parental rights because of a conflict between spouses.

 

In this case, the other parent is not (to our knowledge) abusing the kids or doing anything illegal. All risky activity is subjective and involves adults. I anticipate you'll disagree, but there is nothing *inherently* wrong with a man sleeping with more than one woman.

 

You can't morally remove parental access and rights because a parent makes sexual and romantic choices (with consenting adults) that you don't approve of.

 

The best the OP's friend can hope for are restrictions of overnight guests written into the parenting plan (and that will go "both" directions, typically.)

[Joanne]

Yeah, let's just say I learned the hard way when young that trusting someone's word that their spouse is okay with it without actually hearing from that spouse in some form is naive and a good way to get hurt and hurt someone else.

 

The situation the OP describes is one not uncommonly come across from newbies to online poly forums looking for info on polyamory because they're trying to salvage their mucked up mess of broken monogamy. The situation the friend's husband wants to set up is a polyamorous one on a superficial level, but it's lacking a basic necessary component-- the willing, uncoerced, happy consent of all parties involved. I think that's why poly came up--he may not be using the word, but it's what the friend's husband appears to want, except he's going about it all wrong. He sounds like a selfish turd.

 

You can't make a tasty apple pie from rotten apples and rancid flour. Nor will it turn out if you have peaches instead of apples.

 

I'm glad she's talking to a lawyer.

 

The advice about shielding the kids and not demonizing their father or alienating him from them is also sound.

 

 

And, to complicate matters of vocabulary, "polyamory" is separate and distinct from "being in the lifestyle" which is often some form of "open marriage" but not necessarily embracing a mutual, ongoing, romantic *relationship*. Being "swingers" can be sexual play, not a desire for relationship (which poly typically implies.)

 

It's hard to tell the intent and motive of the husband in this case since he would be breaking rules and protocols of both communities.

[Katy]

Doesn't she understand that he's planning on this woman moving with them?  And he's probably going to a state where that's okay.  Someone needs to do an intervention with her.

[Slartibartfast]

Doesn't she understand that he's planning on this woman moving with them?  And he's probably going to a state where that's okay.  Someone needs to do an intervention with her.

 

 

Agreed, I think he is planning on bringing the GF with them. She needs to stay in the house before she ends up in an unfamiliar city in a situation she will have difficulty escaping. He is trapping her.

[ChrisB]

If she's uncomfortable going to her priest for counsel, most diocese have some equivalent of Catholic Family Services where there are trained Catholic therapists/professionals on staff and resources available.

[QueenCat]

OK.  I went to see her today.  I brought brownies.

 

She is in denial.  She still believes that there is hope for their marriage.  But, she actually broke down for the first time.  She is is flight mode and wants to just run away - to her that translates to moving with DH & the kids to somewhere far away.  She doesn't think he'd ever do anything regarding divorce that hurt the kids or her relationship with them.  (Meaning if they moved & then they divorced she would come back here with the kids and she doesn't think he'd interfere with that.  I told her I disagreed.)  She is also very afraid.  She has spoken with an attorney on the phone and plans to meet with them soon (I don't know what "soon" means).  Just to talk about options and such.

 

His mother has always been an ally of sorts - he's quite a mama's boy.  But she's been disappointingly silent for this latest development.  My friend was hoping for some support there.  

 

I just don't know what to do.   I'm so hurt for her that she doesn't even seem to have anyone in her corner to support her in front of him.  I want to go over there myself and smack him around.  I know that tonight her MIL is watching the kids & I so want to go over & ask her what the deal is - why is she not telling him that this is wrong and she won't be silent about it?  Yes, I know that wouldn't be a good idea and I know I won't go.  But I really want to.  Her family does know about the infidelity but not beyond that.

 

We didn't have a lot of time to talk so a lot didn't get said.  We didn't talk about finances or doctors or therapists.

 

Oh, someone asked how old the kids are - 9, 7, 4.

 

At this point, she needs to not be too trusting of MIL. If they divorce or there are issues, I guarantee MIL will side with her son. So no telling her of lawyer visits or anything.

[Guest]

At this point, she needs to not be too trusting of MIL. If they divorce or there are issues, I guarantee MIL will side with her son. So no telling her of lawyer visits or anything.

Agreed. My SIL put off divorcing her horrible husband because she loved his family so much. Guess who were the first to turn on her, paid for his attorney and lied about her to the judge?? Blood is thicker than water.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Doesn't she understand that he's planning on this woman moving with them? And he's probably going to a state where that's okay. Someone needs to do an intervention with her.

There are fifty states where that is okay.

 

Alright, some states may still have some old laws on the books, but really in 2015, having a wife and a live-in girlfriend? Not going to be a problem with the law.

[Joanne]

There are fifty states where that is okay.

 

Alright, some states may still have some old laws on the books, but really in 2015, having a wife and a live-in girlfriend? Not going to be a problem with the law.

 

One of the "things" I see many people struggle with is understanding how Family Law Courts rarely take into "between consulting adult" behavior when it comes to divorce and parenting plans.

 

Courts tend to support the parent who states a desire and intention to parent.

[elfgivas]

many hugs for you.  a good friend is invaluable.  its also a super-hard thing to do in situations like this.

 

encourage her to see a lawyer so that she knows what her options are.... when i was at the early stages of separation, i interviewed lawyers, and my requirement was that they not let me give everything away if it came to divorce.  i also asked them to tell me if i was about to do something stupid.  (ie.  against the best outcome for my kids and myself).  some of the things surprised me, and i would never have thought of some of them.  moving is included in this.  any change is likely to make whatever comes next more difficult.   

 

ie.  seeing a lawyer doesn't mean she is getting divorced.  it means she is being smart and caring for her kids.

 

if she really does believe her dh is having an emotional/psychological event, maybe she can get herself to the place of acknowledging that she needs to take care of all of them and NOT rely on his judgement.  (i must confess i'm doubting this is the case, but you never know.  it may help her get to the place of needing to take the lead for the time being.)

 

a crisis-councelor would be worth their weight in gold at this moment. 

 

fwiw,

ann

[Scarlett]

In my divorce, my xh's activities were taken into consideration in custody for our son. so not all jurisdictions are the same in practical matters.

[Scarlett]

But even though I used my evidence to obtain full custody I still knew it wouldn't be right to cut my xh out of dss life.

[Ellie]

At this point, she needs to not be too trusting of MIL. If they divorce or there are issues, I guarantee MIL will side with her son. So no telling her of lawyer visits or anything.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Scarlett]

Why does this thread not show up in my list of threads?

[Guest]

Why does this thread not show up in my list of threads?

That happened to me once. Thought I was going nuts!

[Scarlett]

That happened to me once. Thought I was going nuts!

It seems to be so random.....just certain ones drop off my subscribed list.

[school17777]

Just thought of this thread.  OP, how is your friend doing?

[8circles]

Just thought of this thread. OP, how is your friend doing?

Sigh. I don't really know how to answer. I haven't spoken to her in over a week. She wasn't doing well when last we spoke. I think she's still in denial. She went forward with the plan to fly out of state for a job interview for him this weekend. She is my friend and also my neighbor and I think that may complicate her confiding in me a bit. She seemed to be avoiding me a bit this week and i don't want to veer out of friend territory into nosy neighbor territory so I've tried to give her space while also being available.

 

The last I spoke to her, she was hoping he'd get a job out of state and she would stay behind with the kids to sell the house, then she would just change her mind and not follow him but he'd be gone. She's desperate and in denial and just in a lot of pain.

 

Thanks for asking.

[ktgrok]

I haven't read all the comments, but can say that I was in a similar situation, not exactly, but similar enough, and later did talk to a priest about it during my annulment proceedings. He didn't even blink an eye. Trust me, they have heard EVERYTHINg already. Especially the older ones.

[school17777]

I just realized why this thread came to mind.  It is because I was watching 48 Hours tonight and the story line was similar.  I didn't even think about it when I posted until just now.  

 

I am sorry for your friend.  Hope it works out the way she hopes it will.

[Catwoman]

I was hoping the update would be a happier one, or at least a decisive one (for your friend's sake.) She must feel like her entire life is in limbo. :(

[kiwik]

It is the sort of crazy plan my father might come up with. He would never try and avoid his responsibilities though but he is at times easily led by women.

It is hard to give up the dream (whether career, marriage or anything else) to deal with a less than perfect reality. It is hard to feel you failed and accept you are throwing good money after bad. It is convenient for men to blame the woman but is not usually the case. Think Adam and Eve.

 

I still recommend she stay put. She is willing to make the marraige work but she isn't going to run around after him. He goes and stays with his mother until he is ready to do what needs to be done. She will support him 100% in treatment or counselling and she will not say anything negative to the children but it is not her fault and she can't fix it.