Brave Writer: supplemental or complete program?

[dereksurfs]

Hello,

 

I am very interested Brave Writer's courses and curriculum.  I've read some very favorable reviews of their approach to writing and philosophy.  However I cannot tell from their website or other posts if one could use some combination of their offerings as a complete freshman composition course.  ds13 has will have completed WWS 1 & 2.

 

The courses I'm considering so far are:

Kidswrite Intermediate

Expository Essay

 

I don't think those would be enough for a full year.  So I could use these for the Fall semester and then use another writing curriculum for the Spring.

 

Any thoughts, experiences or combos used with Brave Writer at the High School level appreciated.

 

Thanks,

[dereksurfs]

Anyone?

[Lostinabook]

I don't have very much experience with this, but since no one else has replied...  My dd took KWI and was awarded 1/4 credit. Expository Essay is another 1/4 credit. I think the courses are 6 weeks each so you'd have another 6 weeks in a semester to do whatever you want. I didn't think KWI was all that thorough, but dd did not take EE and it could be that EE builds upon KWI's foundation. I wasn't disappointed in the class exactly, but I did think that she would get more extensive feedback on her writing.

[dereksurfs]

I don't have very much experience with this, but since no one else has replied...  My dd took KWI and was awarded 1/4 credit. Expository Essay is another 1/4 credit. I think the courses are 6 weeks each so you'd have another 6 weeks in a semester to do whatever you want. I didn't think KWI was all that thorough, but dd did not take EE and it could be that EE builds upon KWI's foundation. I wasn't disappointed in the class exactly, but I did think that she would get more extensive feedback on her writing.

 

Thanks, Lostinaboook, for sharing your dd's experience.  We are leaning toward using a writing curriculum ourselves vs. taking a class.  BraveWriter KWI and EE curriculum are being sold for 1/2 off through the homeschool buyer's co-op.  I'm leaning more toward using it as supplemental to LToW or another program this Fall.  WWS has been a good experience overall.  I think we are just ready for trying something new this year.

[Carol in Cal.]

The expository essay class is very good, but it only ends up assigning two complete essays.  To me that's about 1/3 to 1/2 of a semester, but it's an extremely helpful kickoff.
However, it's only a writing class--not a literature one, so it's incomplete as an English segment in that regard as well.  For English you want both.  And the focus is not on literary essays but on argumentation in general.
 

We never did the KWI class, but KWB was helpful at about the 5th grade or 6th grade level to force DD to learn to edit and proofread her work, which she had always resisted. 

[Carol in Cal.]

One more thing--while kids are taking those Bravewriter classes, the company suggests that they not to other ELA stuff simultaneously, and that is good advice even for avid readers.  The classes are not terribly long but they ARE quite intense. 

 

Also, it's a good idea to encourage your child to read the other kids' essays and the comments on them, and I would say that if you can fit it in, it's helpful to the teacher/parent also.  It's not all that often that you see detailed constructive critiques of a lot of different styles and levels of writing, and it's quite thoughtprovoking and helpful.

[dereksurfs]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Carol.  I agree with you about needing literature as well.

[Arch at Home]

I am on my second round going through KWI and EE. Each course is supposed to 1/4 credit which I think is about right. I found that the EE builds upon KWI. The girls have benefitted from having deadlines and having an outside set of eyes looking at their work. For the other half of the credit I have had my girls participate in the Brave Writer Boomerang Book Club which counts for 1/2 credit if participated in for 10 months. BCC is a combination of reading a variety of literature, online responding to questions with directed responses, and being part of a greater community of kids doing the same has brought my daughters' writing along quickly. I do though supplement with grammar as that is a weakness in our family which shows up in standardized tests.

 

Sarah

[dereksurfs]

I am on my second round going through KWI and EE. Each course is supposed to 1/4 credit which I think is about right. I found that the EE builds upon KWI. The girls have benefitted from having deadlines and having an outside set of eyes looking at their work. For the other half of the credit I have had my girls participate in the Brave Writer Boomerang Book Club which counts for 1/2 credit if participated in for 10 months. BCC is a combination of reading a variety of literature, online responding to questions with directed responses, and being part of a greater community of kids doing the same has brought my daughters' writing along quickly. I do though supplement with grammar as that is a weakness in our family which shows up in standardized tests.

 

Sarah

 

Thanks, Sarah.  It's good to hear how others are using BraveWriter for a full year program.  How do your dds like BraveWriter?  Do you use the classes primarily?

 

If one were to go through KWI and EE during the first semester do you think simply using BCC by itself would be enough for a high school student?  I know you said you also go through grammar.  It would seem that some additional writing may be needed for our son during the second semester, maybe some literary analysis with a writing component in addition to BCC.

[Julie of KY]

Of the high school classes, my oldest son has done both Kidswriter Int. and Expository Essay. Both come with a grade and transcript saying each is worth 1/4 credit. Both classes were very good. KWI does a lot of foundational work to make writing better without doing any single big projects or essays. EE teaches kids how to write an essay and two complete essays are done over the class.

 

Brave Writer's Help for High School is basically the pdf copy of these two classes together. It is written to the student and intended to be done over about 12 weeks. I bought the pdf first thinking that I'd teach it myself. In another family, I think this could easily be done. The combination of me being a math person and not a writer as well as my oldest being very resistant to writing made me decide to put him in the online class instead (and I've very glad I did). His writing improved tremendously though it is still painful to get writing out of him. I then thought maybe I could use the pdf to teach my second. He can do the exercises, but I'm missing the wonderful feedback from the teachers and "I" can't tell him how to improve his writing. He will be taking KWI this spring. 

 

Our family has taken several family classes this spring - Groovey Grammar and Playing with Poetry. We plan on taking the family Shakespeare class this spring. While these classes aren't geared toward high school specifically, my high schooler has learned a lot and we've had fun learning as a family. Through many different things we done with Brave Writer, I've become convinced that copywork and dictation are the best way for me to teach my (younger) kids grammar.

 

As far as literature, we are going to try out Boomerang Book Club for one or two months this spring and may utilize it more next year. In the past my son did Center for Literature's online lit class and this year we are mostly doing our own literature. I've used the Arrow for my younger kids and while it looked "easy" at first, I'm finding they are learning a lot through it.

 

Brave Writer does have several specific classes that read specific novels and write literary essays after kids learn how to write essays. They also offer a high school poetry class and other advanced writing classes, but they are not offered year round.

[Arch at Home]

Another family may find the Bravewriter classes light but for us they are intense. I find that at the end of a 6 week class we are ready for a break. It is my current plan for 9th grade is to schedule one BW writing class a semester and look for writing opportunities in my dd's other subjects and outside of class for the rest of the year. I am also going to have her do the Boomerang, either as part of the Book Club or from the back issues depending on the selection of the month. The Boomerang Book Club includes great literary analysis questions so I don't feel a need to add that in until later.

 

For the most part they have enjoyed Boomerang Book Club. The writing classes have challenged them and the girls aren't fond of being challenged. A better format for us might be in-person classes as sometimes things are hard to understand if it is always presented in a written format but the girls also do not want to go to a brick and mortar high school. Though the classroom format helps it is still hard to sense that others may be struggling with the same issues when you are reading it online. That said it is the best format I have found for us at this time.

 

That said my oldest went from EE to a CC history class with a number of response papers and then CC English 90 with 5 essays in one semester without problem. Much of what she learned in EE was reiterated in English 90.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Sarah

[dereksurfs]

Yes, Sarah, it does help.  Thank you!  I'm glad to see that there are several good options for us to choose from.  

 

My wife is also considering LToW as well based upon some positive feedback we've received on the latest edition.

[1Togo]

Adding more input.  Our older children took many Bravewriter classes, and our youngest will begin Bravewriter classes with the Spring session.  For us, all of the Bravewriter classes were excellent, and like another poster, they involved quite a bit of work, especially Expository Essay and above.  We followed this progression: KWI, Expository Essay, Timed Writing, Literature.  As regards the Expository Essay, while the students will only write two complete essays during the class, an Exploratory Essay and an Expository Essay with research and documentation, many students will not master those forms on one pass.  They will need to practice the form. The Expository Essay form is universal and can be used over and over with varying levels of sophistication; i.e.  instead of a five-paragraph essay, the student could write eight paragraphs with two paragraphs for each point, or write a longer conclusion or introduction, etc..  After the form is mastered, it can be used for any topic/subject.  Also, Bravewriter classes are shorter because they are focused on specific writing types, which allows the student/family to put together a year of writing that meets the needs and interests of the students.

 

The four classes I mentioned, especially if the material is practiced, would definitely be worth a high school credit for 9th grade.  The following year could include Textual Analysis, a class Julie teaches, Photography and Writing, Fiction I, etc.  For my children, one of the best parts of Bravewriter classes was the feedback and the access that both parent and student have to the feedback given to other students.  Teaching writing at home is often difficult because the student can't see what other students are writing.  They don't know know what good writing by their peers looks like.  Andrew Pudewa of IEW (I think it was Andrew.) has said that teaching a group of students gives the teacher the opportunity to steal from the rich and give to the poor.  Some students are gifted writers with a wealth of ideas, access to language, etc.  Others are not.   It really benefits students who have less ability to see the writing of more able peers, and Bravewriter classes were so wonderful for our students because everyone. regardless of ability, was nurtured.  As you an tell, I am a huge fan of Bravewriter.

[1Togo]

We have also used LTW, and I am a fan of LTW as well.  LTW I teaches one essay form, a complete persuasive essay, through Invention; i.e. coming up with ideas, Arrangement; i.e. putting your ideas in order, and Elocution; i.e. expressing your ideas appropriately.  LTW I uses literature of the student's choosing for the basis of the essays.  LTW shines (really, really shines) because it teaches the student to think about issues.  Every essay centers on one question:  Should Anne forgive Gilbert?  Should Gandalf recommend Bilbo?  Should Mole live with Rat? The process of thinking about these questions is complex, and as the student uses the various tools of invention, they will explore the characters, the setting, the meaning of words, etc.  Also, I really like LTW essays because they contain only the ideas of the student.   LTW essays equal original thought, and that thought is possible because of the rhetorical tools taught in the lessons. Just lovely.

 

I recently bought the 5th edition, and it is a clear and masterful presentation of the LTW materials.  It easily walks the teacher through the lessons - a linear progression with lots of examples.

 

[dereksurfs]

Wow, 1togo, this is very insightful information!  Thank you.  You've used *both* programs we are looking strongly at for high school.  It really helps to hear from parents who have gone through these programs with their children.

 

I have been wondering about the 5th addition of LToW since my wife is concerned about it being difficult to teach.  I know they tried to really re-work the curriculum to make it more teacher friendly.

 

Since you use both programs with your children I am wondering if you think it matters which a student goes over first?  I am thinking either could be beneficial and complimentary to the other.  It seems like they focus on different but important approaches to writing.  I noticed you mention both your older and younger are taking BraveWriter classes.  Do you do any tailoring based on age level and/or existing skill sets, one being further along and more mature than another?  

 

Thanks again,

[1Togo]

Hi Derek,

 

As an aside, I believe it was one of your posts that led us to Tablet Class math, which we have been using since the summer.  Our youngest has struggled math, and I had resigned myself to just getting through the remaining high school classes any way possible.  Tablet Class math combined with coaching from John Zimmerman has changed that.

 

As regards LTW and Bravewriter, I have thought quite a bit about which should come first, and I think LTW should be first.  Mastery of the Invention, Arrangement and Elocution tools taught in LTW will make the Expository Essay class with Bravewriter easier.  I realize I am looking at LTW with some experience, but I do think your wife can teach it using the 5th edition.  We are going to review LTW I soon, and I plan to follow the TG step-by-step.  If you have any questions, join the LTW yahoo Mentor group and post the questions.  Someone will help you.

 

Btw, as I am writing this post, I am looking through LTW 5th edition, and again, I am impressed by the work the Circe staff has done to make LTW accessible to home school parents.  Youngest dc is putting in lots of time studying for the National Latin Exam, but I am impatient to begin our LTW work because it's much more than just learning to write a certain type of essay.

 

Feel free to send a pm if you have further questions.

 

1togo 

[dereksurfs]

Hi Derek,

 

As an aside, I believe it was one of your posts that led us to Tablet Class math, which we have been using since the summer.  Our youngest has struggled math, and I had resigned myself to just getting through the remaining high school classes any way possible.  Tablet Class math combined with coaching from John Zimmerman has changed that.

 

As regards LTW and Bravewriter, I have thought quite a bit about which should come first, and I think LTW should be first.  Mastery of the Invention, Arrangement and Elocution tools taught in LTW will make the Expository Essay class with Bravewriter easier.  I realize I am looking at LTW with some experience, but I do think your wife can teach it using the 5th edition.  We are going to review LTW I soon, and I plan to follow the TG step-by-step.  If you have any questions, join the LTW yahoo Mentor group and post the questions.  Someone will help you.

 

Btw, as I am writing this post, I am looking through LTW 5th edition, and again, I am impressed by the work the Circe staff has done to make LTW accessible to home school parents.  Youngest dc is putting in lots of time studying for the National Latin Exam, but I am impatient to begin our LTW work because it's much more than just learning to write a certain type of essay.

 

Feel free to send a pm if you have further questions.

 

1togo 

 

Hi 1togo,

 

This really epitomizes what the WTM forum is all about, doesn't it?  So many folks on here willing to help each other out.  We basically pass on whatever contribution we can make, whether it be small or large.  Then everyone benefits.  It never ceases to amaze me how much combined knowledge and BTDT insight is available.  I'm glad things are working out well for your youngest DC with TC and John Zimmerman.  He really has a heart for teaching kids math.

 

All the best,