Simple Chat about a college situation

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

For what it is worth--my husband's mantra after doing some college visits last summer was to say that he understood that not every student on every day, even at the best of universities, would be sound or look professional when leading a tour or discussion.  But in some cases you really need to ask yourself why would the uni pick that kid to lead the tour/discussion-don't they put their best and brightest up front?

 

I'm not sure I agree with him completely on this but it is certainly one perspective to view the op's experience from.

[tex-mex]

 

 

Perhaps some will be unhappy with this analogy, but here is an idea my husband and I have been batting about: If a family can afford to provide a car for their young driver, they usually look for a vehicle that is safe, reliable, and reasonably priced. (For the purposes of this analogy, we set aside the parents who will indulge their kids in what's "cool" or "in.") Safety, reliability, and cost-effectiveness. Those are the considerations. The parents don't generally send the teen driver off to search for a vehicle without outlining how much can be spent and on what sorts of features. I'm not sure why we would set our prospective college students off without similar information. This is what we will contribute. We will never set a limit on how high you aim, but we will also not risk our financial future on a big-ticket college simply because you were admitted. If you want to attend XYZ, do what you can to earn merit aid. After that, let's crunch numbers. Be prepared with some alternatives that also meet your needs.

 

We've been having conversations like this with our students since, oh, they were able to understand that working hard and earning the right stats do not guarantee anything.

 

Anyway, those are some thoughts I had after reading this post and the one in which you linked the article. Again, congratulations and best wishes to your son!

 

 

Sorry to hijack the thread... coming out of lurkdom to compliment your post.   :iagree:

 

And to give my 2 cents in that based on the same discussion with my parent before going on to college, I made the choice to get an education without sky-high debt.  Once I graduated and began teaching, I quickly paid off my remaining $25K debt with my first year's income while we lived on my spouse's income.  Then we switched and did the same to eliminate his $20K debt.  That was back in 1993.  No need to risk our future on a student loan debt. 

 

/hijack over

[8filltheheart]

For what it is worth--my husband's mantra after doing some college visits last summer was to say that he understood that not every student on every day, even at the best of universities, would be sound or look professional when leading a tour or discussion. But in some cases you really need to ask yourself why would the uni pick that kid to lead the tour/discussion-don't they put their best and brightest up front?

 

I'm not sure I agree with him completely on this but it is certainly one perspective to view the op's experience from.

Most of the kids doing tours are participating in work study. It has nothing to do with best and brightest but kids who need an on-campus job. Kids who have better options will not be giving tours.

 

There are lots of ways to evaluate a college, but I personally would not base a decision on a student led tour. Dept interviews and sitting in on a class will give you a much more realistic view of what your student will experience. (Nothing like going on a tour with a physical education major when you are interested in chemical engineering. ;). Definitely not an accurate source of information.)

[Angie in VA]

Off topic: I didn't know Mental multivitamin still posted here.

Yay!   :hurray: 

And, no, MM, you don't "know" me, but I have been blessed by many of your posts, and I am thrilled that you are still here. Best wishes to your senior.

OP, please forgive this off topic post. Congrats to your ds. I hope he finds his place. I recall wishing I was in a barb coma until the college decision was made during dd's senior year. That song, "Wake me up when it's all over, when I'm wiser and I'm older..." would have been my theme song that year.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

For what it is worth--my husband's mantra after doing some college visits last summer was to say that he understood that not every student on every day, even at the best of universities, would be sound or look professional when leading a tour or discussion.  But in some cases you really need to ask yourself why would the uni pick that kid to lead the tour/discussion-don't they put their best and brightest up front?

 

I'm not sure I agree with him completely on this but it is certainly one perspective to view the op's experience from.

 

You know what...this particular breakout session was the last one of the day.  The day began at 8am and this was after 4pm.  These girls had been smiling and answering questions all day.  This particular session, as I noted earlier, was dominated by the parents.  The high schoolers were completing their interviews or enjoying the reception.  A couple of the parents were asking some really tough, in depth (and personal) questions. It is a good possibility these girls were simply worn out after 7 straight hours of 'being on'.  It's a shame, though, that this conversation took place in the last few minutes of the day and is what I (and possibly others in the room) took away as the final impression.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 (Nothing like going on a tour with a physical education major when you are interested in chemical engineering. ;). Definitely not an accurate source of information.)

 

I agree.  DS, DH and I toured an LAC a couple of weeks ago.  There were 8 of us in the tour group.  We were there the Friday before Spring semester began and campus was fairly quiet.  We sat through the info session (DH's first) and when we were getting ready to leave for our tour they split us into two groups. Five went in one group, our family went in another. We told them we would be happy to be with the other 5 and just have one large group but were told the tour was specific for each student and the others had common interests.  DS had declared a possible Bio major and our tour guide was a senior Bio major who had recently been accepted to med school.  He took us to the places that DS would be using - the Bio labs, the Bio library, the science buildings, the tennis courts, etc.  He spoke specifically to DS's interests and glossed over the things DS probably wouldn't need to know right away. It was obvious the admissions office and tour guide had at least looked at DS's application/profile.

 

I do not know if we would have had the same experience on a busier day but it made a good impression.

 

<self hijack over>

[Granny_Weatherwax]

OP, please forgive this off topic post. Congrats to your ds. I hope he finds his place. I recall wishing I was in a barb coma until the college decision was made during dd's senior year. That song, "Wake me up when it's all over, when I'm wiser and I'm older..." would have been my theme song that year.

 

Thanks.  I cannot believe how tough this is.  What I want to know is how DS can remain so calm while I am riddled with anxiety and the need to do something.

 

[Angie in VA]

Thanks.  I cannot believe how tough this is.  What I want to know is how DS can remain so calm while I am riddled with anxiety and the need to do something.

 

 

 

:grouphug:

 

I couldn't believe how calm my DH was while I was freaking out. It started in the fall w/ all the apps and transcript and course descriptions, and continued till she made her decision in the spring. I had a meltdown at a debate tournament in the spring (before the decision was made) b/c I messed up someone's name tag and Dh thought it was funny. Several people thought it was funny, b/c it was an unusual name. All my stress from the whole school year manifested in that moment. I can laugh about it...now.* 

 

I'm telling ya, barb coma is the way to go. That's my plan for my ds's senior year. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

*The next year I made two name tags for everyone who saw my error and had a laugh on me. I made correct name tags and then I made one reading that first name and each person's last name. One friend's expression was a guarded smile that seemed to say, "You  mean you can laugh about this now?" Yeah. Finally.

[angela in ohio]

Most of the kids doing tours are participating in work study. It has nothing to do with best and brightest but kids who need an on-campus job. Kids who have better options will not be giving tours.

 

There are lots of ways to evaluate a college, but I personally would not base a decision on a student led tour. Dept interviews and sitting in on a class will give you a much more realistic view of what your student will experience. (Nothing like going on a tour with a physical education major when you are interested in chemical engineering. ;). Definitely not an accurate source of information.)

 

We toured Carnegie-Mellon with a theater major. We never even saw the engineering building, and the young man focused mostly on the social aspects of college. :D My dd was decidedly unimpressed, of course, but I talked her into looking deeper.

 

I was the "tour guide manager" during my sophomore year at my state school, so I can give a peek into the workings there. :) It was indeed just anyone who wanted an on-campus job. We interviewed and tried to select the best guides, but in the end we just needed warm bodies sometimes, so they weren't all great. For scholarship/honors events, we trotted out the "scholarship ambassadors" (myself included) to sit with students and parents and answer questions, but the tour guides were the same as usual.

[angela in ohio]

The overall academic culture in the honors program, or the social culture of the whole college?

 

The academic culture of the whole college.

 

No matter how great the honors program, most only offer a limited number of classes. I think this is an important question to ask a university, by the way. For example, my university offered enough honors courses to take one almost every semester. That left 3-4 courses that were non-honors (many of us routinely took 5 courses, 20 credit hours) per semester. They also couldn't fill the honors dorm with enough honors student, so it was really only about 50% honors students (another important question to ask, I think.)

 

I think there are probably gems out there, truly great opportunities for honors students in larger schools. But I think you have to look carefully and not assume that simply being a motivated student with access to an honors program is going to be enough.

[8filltheheart]

The academic culture of the whole college.

 

No matter how great the honors program, most only offer a limited number of classes. I think this is an important question to ask a university, by the way. For example, my university offered enough honors courses to take one almost every semester. That left 3-4 courses that were non-honors (many of us routinely took 5 courses, 20 credit hours) per semester. They also couldn't fill the honors dorm with enough honors student, so it was really only about 50% honors students (another important question to ask, I think.)

 

I think there are probably gems out there, truly great opportunities for honors students in larger schools. But I think you have to look carefully and not assume that simply being a motivated student with access to an honors program is going to be enough.

 

I think this is where understanding specific school offerings matter.  At ds's school, upperclassmen are not guaranteed on-campus housing b/c there aren't enough rooms for entering freshman and upperclassmen, including honors dorms.

 

At ds's school, students are allowed to take grad level courses.  B/c they allow students to carry in AP and DE credit, students like our ds are able to take grad level courses.  He will only ever take a handful of lower level classes and most of those he can take via honors courses. 

 

I have a hard time picturing the environment that SMinIL is describing.  Ds has nothing but enthusiasm for his experience (even when I have expressed doubts.)

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

 

I have a hard time picturing the environment that SMinIL is describing.  Ds has nothing but enthusiasm for his experience (even when I have expressed doubts.)

 

Me too which is why I wanted to chat about it.  This experience was so odd.

 

[Home'scool]

In my opinion I do not think it is wise to accept a full ride to a third rate school if that school really is third rate.

 

If it is just a case of wanting their dream school over another reputable school then that is a different case. It all depends on the individual colleges.

 

My daughter went to a lower tier school than what we wanted because she received a very generous scholarship. She transferred out after one semester. Being surrounded by students whose GPA's and SAT's are much lower than yours can have a negative effect. The coursework was too easy. The approach and work ethic shown by the students did not fit my daughter's style. She found it frustrating and demotivating. She is by no means an ace student but you want your student to be challenged and motivated by the people they are surrounded by. People adjust their "normal" based on their peers. She is now at a higher tier school with no scholarship, although it is still on we can reasonably afford without her graduating with hundreds of thousands in debt. NO SCHOOL IS WORTH THAT.

 

My other daughter had the opposite experience. We could not afford to send her to her dream school. She was devastated. She did not want to go to her safety school but financially that was the best option. She is now a junior and LOVES the safety school. However, the safety school is a very good school with high academics. So although this school was not her first choice (it was really her last choice) it is not a lower tier school.

 

If the school that is offering a full ride is a decent school (does not have to be top tier but should be competitive) then fine, go there. If the school that is offering a full ride is a third tier school? No, do not go there.

 

Choose the best school that you can afford. It is better to graduate with manageable debt than to graduate with no debt but with a degree that is not valued.

[Hoggirl]

^I wish there were a "love" button for this entire post!

[Mom2boys]

Just wanted to say that this thread has been very helpful to me. My ds17 is trying to decide between his top two schools - one where he would be a big fish and one where he would not. You all have given us lots to think about. Thanks to all who have posted.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Most of the kids doing tours are participating in work study. It has nothing to do with best and brightest but kids who need an on-campus job. Kids who have better options will not be giving tours.

 

There are lots of ways to evaluate a college, but I personally would not base a decision on a student led tour. Dept interviews and sitting in on a class will give you a much more realistic view of what your student will experience. (Nothing like going on a tour with a physical education major when you are interested in chemical engineering. ;). Definitely not an accurate source of information.)

 

As I said, I didn't agree with him entirely on the usefulness of this as an evaluation tool. 

 

However, you do need to know that not all campuses have it as an employment option.  At my alma mater being a tour guide/student host was more akin to belonging to a club.  There was a lengthy interview and training process and only a few were selected.  It was considered an honor.  I also don't believe that there was a pay check-strictly volunteer work.  It ensured there were bright and enthusiastic students giving tours and such but did have the effect of reducing the number of students using work study options also being tour guides-only so many hours in the week.

 

Yes, we found having a tour guide from the right department was very helpful and sometimes one of the same gender had a perspective on housing that was useful.  Those times we had some one not so matched weren't actually worse-just not as useful.  Most were willing to try and find answers or who to contact at the end of the tour.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

You know what...this particular breakout session was the last one of the day.  The day began at 8am and this was after 4pm.  These girls had been smiling and answering questions all day.  This particular session, as I noted earlier, was dominated by the parents.  The high schoolers were completing their interviews or enjoying the reception.  A couple of the parents were asking some really tough, in depth (and personal) questions. It is a good possibility these girls were simply worn out after 7 straight hours of 'being on'.  It's a shame, though, that this conversation took place in the last few minutes of the day and is what I (and possibly others in the room) took away as the final impression.

 

I think sometimes parents forget that there are boundaries.  While those students are often giving personal insights, their personal relationships, GPAs, personal opinion of Prof. X, amount of financial aid awarded to them, etc. are not necessarily up for discussion. Being a tour guide doesn't require putting your entire personal life on display to the public.

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Just wanted to say that this thread has been very helpful to me. My ds17 is trying to decide between his top two schools - one where he would be a big fish and one where he would not. You all have given us lots to think about. Thanks to all who have posted.

 

I've been spending alot of time working on my new application mantras.  "It's not just about how great the school is--it's about how great the school is for my kid."  This has a part 2 which is "It's not about will they accept my kid but will my kid succeed there."

 

***sorry for the multitude of posts but multi-quote keeps giving me only one quote

[8filltheheart]

This list might interest some. I didn't really follow through on looking at how the data was analyzed, so I am taking it at face value. It is a compilation of the number of students with ACT scores of 30+ on several college campuses. Bc large campuses avgs are lower due to high enrollment numbers, it skews the percentage and dwarfs the number of high performers. Some large campuses have numbers that are higher than the total enrollement at some more prestigious campuses. Anyway, if her analysis is accurate, it does show that large pockets of strong students do exist on lower ranked schools.

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/18061424/#Comment_18061424

 

Hope it helps someone or at least gives some ideas on how to look at some of the available data. (On the third page of that link, there is a article linked with some more analysis. I didn't read it, but it looked similar.)

[creekland]

This list might interest some. I didn't really follow through on looking at how the data was analyzed, so I am taking it at face value. It is a compilation of the number of students with ACT scores of 30+ on several college campuses. Bc large campuses avgs are lower due to high enrollment numbers, it skews the percentage and dwarfs the number of high performers. Some large campuses have numbers that are higher than the total enrollement at some more prestigious campuses. Anyway, if her analysis is accurate, it does show that large pockets of strong students do exist on lower ranked schools.

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/18061424/#Comment_18061424

 

Hope it helps someone or at least gives some ideas on how to look at some of the available data. (On the third page of that link, there is a article linked with some more analysis. I didn't read it, but it looked similar.)

 

???  I did not see any lower ranked schools on that list.  Is the list with lower ranked schools somewhere else?  Every school I saw from Harvey Mudd to UA is in the Top 100.  There are 3000+ schools.  Top 100 isn't "lower ranked" to me.  

 

When we've researched lower ranked schools that had been suggested to us for practically free educations (for top stats), college board has had < 1 or 2% of students getting a 30/1330+.

 

I just looked up the Top 30 Regional (vs National) school middle son's peer attends (wishing he had picked a higher level school rather than the free education).  It has 2% SAT > 700 and 5% ACT > 30.  Putting this into real numbers with attending freshmen, that's < 50 students out of 900+ who chose to go there.  Their average ACT is 18-24.  Comparatively, URoc has an average ACT of 29-32.  They do not give percentages above 30, but it sure has to be higher.  Actual numbers will be higher too, of course.

[creekland]

Most of the kids doing tours are participating in work study. It has nothing to do with best and brightest but kids who need an on-campus job. Kids who have better options will not be giving tours.

 

We were not paid for giving tours.  It was a volunteer deal and we had to pass a test about college history and info first.  I enjoyed giving tours!  Pay would have been nice, but it never occurred to me to get paid as that wasn't how it happened at my campus.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

???  I did not see any lower ranked schools on that list.  Is the list with lower ranked schools somewhere else?

 

There is a link on the third page that lists over a thousand  schools in order by average SAT scores.  That is the only metric used on that list.  Here's the link.

[creekland]

There is a link on the third page that lists over a thousand  schools in order by average SAT scores.  That is the only metric used on that list.  Here's the link.

 

But that list doesn't give actual number counts of students with higher scores as the link on the second page does.

 

Even then, I didn't see any school in the Top 150 (or so) that surprised me.  I didn't look through the whole list.  I used the "Find" feature (Ctrl F) to look at my guy's schools and was content with their listings.

[8filltheheart]

Lower ranked is a relative term. For some people, anything outside of the top 50 is lower ranked. (Honestly, for some people anything a outside the top 10 is lower ranked. :p ) But ranking was not my point at all. I was simply offering a way of looking for strength of student body outside of typical rankings that people see.

I have read way too many arguments about top students not being able to find peers at schools not listed in USNWR 's top 50. Her breakdown of numbers shows that there are more higher ranked students attend schools outside that top # list but their presence is diluted by the very high numbers of lower stat students attending. 1500 top students in the midst of 6500 freshman does not give the same data as 500 students all with closely similar stats.

The link on the third page I still don't think compensates for student body size, but I didn't really read it closely enough to state one way or the other.

[8filltheheart]

We were not paid for giving tours. It was a volunteer deal and we had to pass a test about college history and info first. I enjoyed giving tours! Pay would have been nice, but it never occurred to me to get paid as that wasn't how it happened at my campus.

I am sure that is the case at some schools, but student employees are the norm at many. We have been on far more tours that would turn us off the school than on, including schools we are very familiar with. Just sharing that dept meetings have revealed far more pertinent info for our student than a generic campus tour.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I don't know if this is relevant or helpful at all, it's just an anecdote, but I thought I'd share my story.  I went to a parochial high school that had zero support/advising for any student doing anything but attending the church's college.  If you didn't do that you were going to hell anyway, so why bother helping you get there? I also had some serious health problems my last year and a half of high school and didn't know if I'd be up for college, physically. And my parents, who were in the final stages of saving a downpayment for the purchase of their first house, had no money to contribute to my college education, and had a savings account balance that put me out of the running for needs-based scholarships.

 

So.  Despite really high PSAT & SAT scores and being a NMS finalist, I didn't make an effort to pursue any top-tier college.  Or any college, for that matter. I applied to the local Cal State, which was in commuting distance from home.  I did win one independent scholarship that would pay for my first couple of years - tuition plus books - and I knew I'd have to work for the rest.  When I got to freshman orientation, I stopped at the Honors Program table and asked the guy there about the program.  At first he was kind of dismissive, but once he heard about my test scores, he got all irate that he hadn't gotten my name from Admissions, and started pursuing me for the program and for a scholarship.  He got me in and got me enough $$ to pay for the rest of my tuition and books. The honors program was small, didn't fit the college's demographic, and didn't help me find a tribe, but it did direct me through the madness of my first two years of GE classes via Honors classes with small class size and great profs.  My junior year, I found a prof in my major who was doing research, and spent the next two years doing research with him.  I had opportunities that are rare for an undergrad, as there were no grad students to compete with - I was definitely a Big Fish.  I applied and got accepted to MIT for grad school, based on the research experience I'd had as an undergrad (and decent GRE scores).  I graduated from college and a PhD program with zero debt, which had a huge impact on my ability to do a lot of really interesting and unique things, including international travel, apprentice-based training in a new field, and starting my own business, none of which would have been possible had I had huge debts.

 

My point? Just that being the Big Fish can lead to all kinds of opportunities - which depend on the student, not any prep the parents can give them.  That graduating debt-free can mean that there are so many more choices.  That it can all happen without a financial contribution from parents - my parents contributed zero $ to my tuition, though they helped out in other ways, mostly free rent and paying car insurance.  And in my experience, if grad school is part of a student's plans, where you go to grad school is way more important than where you do your undergrad.

 

And that ultimately, your students will have to make their own way, and their success and failure will have so much more to do with what they do with the opportunities in front of them than where they are for college.  College is a tiny part of life.  Not everyone finds their tribe at college. Just like high school isn't the sum total of life - which can be hard to see when you are 16 and in the middle of it - college isn't either.  It gives you tools, hopefully, to create the life that will make you happy, but it's no guarantee one way or the other.  You still have to bring it, for the rest of your life, and nobody can do that for you.

 

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Lower ranked is a relative term. For some people, anything outside of the top 50 is lower ranked. (Honestly, for some people anything a outside the top 10 is lower ranked. :p ) But ranking was not my point at all. I was simply offering a way of looking for strength of student body outside of typical rankings that people see.

 

 

I have been Googling like a madwoman trying to nail down the line between top tier, second tier and third tier.  It cannot be done.  The definitions change depending upon who is doing the ranking. 

 

USNWR states that Top Tier schools include the top 75%; second tier, the bottom 25%.  The numerical ranks for Second Tier schools are not published (RNP).  Other schools are not ranked at all and given a designation of NR.

 

--

 

Although I found an article, based on USNWR data, from 2008 that breaks the Tiers into groups of 50.

1-50 - Top Tier

51-100 - Second Tier

101-150- Third Tier

151-200 - Fourth Tier

 

If this is indeed the acknowledged breakdown, the school which began my musing, is a fourth tier school. 

 

So this begs the question - what about the hundreds of other colleges and universities? Where do they stand?

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Just found a reference to an article from 2009 that says the 'new' tiers are:

 

Tier 1 - 1-130

Tier 2 - doesn't exist

Tier 3 - anything above 150

 

--

(off to have another chai to calm my rattled brain)

 

[8filltheheart]

Fwiw, I think rankings are relative. For example, the tech university our oldest went to school is only ranked regionally, not nationally. It isn't ranked very high regionally either, according to USNWR. BUT, industry LOVES its grads. . Its engineering program is excellent(as is its nursing school.) ds was hired alongside grads from schools like GA Tech and VT. If it were ranked by employers what would its ranking be?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Lower ranked is a relative term. For some people, anything outside of the top 50 is lower ranked. (Honestly, for some people anything a outside the top 10 is lower ranked. :p ) But ranking was not my point at all. I was simply offering a way of looking for strength of student body outside of typical rankings that people see.

 

I have read way too many arguments about top students not being able to find peers at schools not listed in USNWR 's top 50. Her breakdown of numbers shows that there are more higher ranked students attend schools outside that top # list but their presence is diluted by the very high numbers of lower stat students attending. 1500 top students in the midst of 6500 freshman does not give the same data as 500 students all with closely similar stats.

 

The link on the third page I still don't think compensates for student body size, but I didn't really read it closely enough to state one way or the other.

 

I think for large universities it would matter a great deal where those students were concentrated.  The education department may have a very different saturation of higher stat students than the biology department.

 

But the point is well taken to look at the quantity as well as the quality.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Just found a reference to an article from 2009 that says the 'new' tiers are:

 

Tier 1 - 1-130

Tier 2 - doesn't exist

Tier 3 - anything above 150

 

--

(off to have another chai to calm my rattled brain)

 

Said cheekily (because I got no sleep last night).  I have created the following handy guide to college.

 

New tiers as observed at parties with parents of high school seniors and college students 

 

Tier 1 - School where my kid attends or has been recently accepted

Tier 2 - Schools that accepted my kid, but that weren't affordable

Tier 3 - Schools that turned down my kid.  Especially if they also accepted the children of the annoying parent at the dessert table

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Fwiw, I think rankings are relative. For example, the tech university our oldest went to school is only ranked regionally, not nationally. It isn't ranked very high regionally either, according to USNWR. BUT, industry LOVES its grads. . Its engineering program is excellent(as is its nursing school.) ds was hired alongside grads from schools like GA Tech and VT. If it were ranked by employers what would its ranking be?

 

I also think the bigger the school the harder it is to read meaning from rankings.  How does one compare the value of history instruction and learning against that of mechanical engineering?  How does the black studies department compare with nursing?  

 

When we toured WVU, we had two tour guides, one who was a biology major and another who had a goal of going into sports broadcast journalism.  The bio major seemed very bright and interesting.  The other guide was a real firecracker who could totally work the room.  He had spent the preceeding summer on a study abroad program doing intern work for NBC at the London Olympics.  WVU is also more than a little sports obsessed.  But my most rankings, WVU would not be very high.  (It's 474th on the Psychology Today list of 1000 schools.)  Might not have been the most challenging option for the biology major.  But I think it may have been quite a good choice for the sports management guy.

 

This is actually what I find really challenging about helping my kids investigate colleges.

 

For that matter, I have an English degree from a service academy that isn't even a BA (I have a BS instead).  On the positive side, it was a very traditional English degree, that spent a lot of time on what would be considered classic works.  On the other hand, there were very few works that weren't written in English.  I read modern and contemporary works by English and American authors, but almost no Germans, Russians, or South Americans (Borges was one major exception).  So it was good to be able to spend a whole class on Chaucer or works on the African American experience.  But I wish we'd be able to do a semester on Russian literature or South American too.  On the other hand, the program did not dwell on works that were included mostly to check the box on some underrepresented category of author identity.

 

My education MS degree is from a mostly commuter school that is 3/4 of the way down the Psych Today list.  But nearly every one of my instructors was a currently working teacher or administrator, or they were a special education adviser or a past teacher and principal who was working as a school consultant.  These folks had years and decades of experience in the classroom, mostly continuing to the current day.  But it was part of a barely advertised program for non-traditional (mostly former military) students.  The standard ed department was more populated with educators who were not and had not been classroom teachers and students who were young and not as accomplished.  I would not have sent a student to this school for an engineering degree.  But the education class that I was in were quite good and the students were mostly very involved.

[8filltheheart]

I think for large universities it would matter a great deal where those students were concentrated. The education department may have a very different saturation of higher stat students than the biology department.

 

But the point is well taken to look at the quantity as well as the quality.

I suspect majors are rather self-selecting. It also points toward whether or not there is an honors program and if it serves a specific function. Does the honors program try to meet specific needs of high achievers? Not all do. Some are nothing more than a name. Some are honors college with designated honors as a minor. Ds's program is definitely geared toward meeting student needs. I think the stats for his 2014 group are something like a 33.9 ACT/1490 SAT and 4.5 GPA. (I'm too lazy to look for his acceptance letter. ;) ). But even for the kids that aren't in his program, the honors college itself offers Emerging Scholars (another research undergrad program), STEM MBA (that would have been perfect for our oldest who dreams of opening his own microbrewery), UFE, etc. The point being that top students aren't dropped into a void. IF the STUDENT wants to be active in additional opportunities, they are readily available. The university wants its students to succeed. They actively encourage and fund student requests.

 

What would greatly concern me would be if nothing exists which allows undergrads to excel outside the classroom and distinguish themselves beyond grades. That would be a horrible place to be.

[creekland]

Although I found an article, based on USNWR data, from 2008 that breaks the Tiers into groups of 50.

1-50 - Top Tier

51-100 - Second Tier

101-150- Third Tier

151-200 - Fourth Tier

 

If this is indeed the acknowledged breakdown, the school which began my musing, is a fourth tier school. 

 

So this begs the question - what about the hundreds of other colleges and universities? Where do they stand?

 

And this is why most rankings based upon Tier are more or less meaningless.

 

We looked at schools that fit my guys SAT/ACT scores (and I wanted mine in the top 25% of stats) and we looked at schools that employers in their anticipated fields recommended.  IMO, if employers like the schools, well, that's what counts.  

 

When I looked for Marine Science for youngest I also looked at NOAA Hollings Scholarship winners. This led to my finding out that Top 10 for Marine Science definitely doesn't match typical Top 100 schools.  

 

When I investigated med school admissions for middle I also checked the various pre-med threads.  This led to finding out that pretty much any undergrad school can work for med school.  Middle son more or less had his choice of schools (and majors).

[Hoggirl]

Just wanted to say that this thread has been very helpful to me. My ds17 is trying to decide between his top two schools - one where he would be a big fish and one where he would not. You all have given us lots to think about. Thanks to all who have posted.

I think these types of threads can be very helpful because they offer many different perspectives and personal experiences. But the problem with these types of queries - there are always MANY of them on CC this time of year, usually with titles such as "Full-pay at Top 20 or Full-ride at Big State U" or "Is such and such school with debt worth it?" - is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer. The anecdotal evidence is great because it may lead to considerations not previously thought of. However, regardless of the number of anecdotes, one cannot draw a sweeping conclusion. As is evidenced by the replies shared on this thread, the bottom-line answer is, "It depends."

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Said cheekily (because I got no sleep last night).  I have created the following handy guide to college.

 

New tiers as observed at parties with parents of high school seniors and college students 

 

Tier 1 - School where my kid attends or has been recently accepted

Tier 2 - Schools that accepted my kid, but that weren't affordable

Tier 3 - Schools that turned down my kid.  Especially if they also accepted the children of the annoying parent at the dessert table

 

:laugh: :thumbup1: :001_tt1:

[8circles]

I thought of this thread when this article popped-up on FB.  Thought you might find it interesting.  http://www.businessinsider.com/most-underrated-colleges-in-america-2013-6?op=1

 

BTW, I may have gone to this particular school that you are discussing. LOL.  In the honors program no less.  Many, many moons ago.

[8filltheheart]

Momoflaw, interesting link. One of the schools on that list, Louisiana Tech, is one that makes the list of offering a lot of merit money.

 

Louisiana Tech University

Application Deadline: Jan 5th

Award: Full Ride (tuition, fees, and on-campus regular dorm and meals for four years)

Residual COA: $5,229/year

Requirements: 3.0 GPA, 32 ACT or 1400 SAT (CR+M)

http://admissions.latech.edu/tuition_fees/pdfs/freshman_scholarships.pdf

[Hoggirl]

Here is an example of the same type of discussion on CC: I liked post #117, because that poster echoed the sentiment I made here in post #89. Always like having someone agree withe me! :D

 

So, if you want to read more opinions and more anecdotal evidence, here ya' go:

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1738001-full-ride-to-a-state-school-or-paying-for-an-ivy-p1.html

[chiguirre]

I have been Googling like a madwoman trying to nail down the line between top tier, second tier and third tier.  It cannot be done.  The definitions change depending upon who is doing the ranking. 

Tier One is a classification based on a university's research output. Texas has been pushing for more T1 schools for the last decade and U of Houston finally qualified a couple of years ago. Here's their explanation of the term:

 

http://www.uh.edu/about/tier-one/tier-one-faq/

 

Obviously, U of H is not Harvard, it's not even UT Austin, but I do see why they're proud of the T1 status. It does have value for a university to pursue it and it is an indicator of opportunities that students have at a school. U of H offers a full ride plus perks to NMFs. It could be a good alternative of U of Alabama if it's strong in a field you're interested in.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Well, after doing more reading (thanks for all of the links) I found this bit of info.  It's a Wiki link but it details the Carnegie Foundation lists of Tier 1 and Tier 2.  There is a list for what I assume would be Tier 3 but I chose not to follow that link. 

 

The lists are quite interesting.  There are 107 colleges/universities in the top tier and 99 in the second tier.  I was surprised with the ranking of some schools on each list.

 

Upon looking through the lists the school we visited is in the second tier.

 

(off to do more reading)

[Mom2boys]

Well, after doing more reading (thanks for all of the links) I found this bit of info.  It's a Wiki link but it details the Carnegie Foundation lists of Tier 1 and Tier 2.  There is a list for what I assume would be Tier 3 but I chose not to follow that link. 

 

The lists are quite interesting.  There are 107 colleges/universities in the top tier and 99 in the second tier.  I was surprised with the ranking of some schools on each list.

 

Upon looking through the lists the school we visited is in the second tier.

 

(off to do more reading)

 

Hmmm... all four schools that my ds applied to (and was accepted at) are on the tier 2 list. Not sure if I should be happy about that or not. I really thought that two of them were stronger academically than the other two, but maybe the difference isn't as great as I thought. But I guess what really matters is which schools are stronger in my son's chosen major, right?

[creekland]

Hmmm... all four schools that my ds applied to (and was accepted at) are on the tier 2 list. Not sure if I should be happy about that or not. I really thought that two of them were stronger academically than the other two, but maybe the difference isn't as great as I thought. But I guess what really matters is which schools are stronger in my son's chosen major, right?

 

This list seems to be solely based upon how much research is done at these schools (quantity) - not necessarily the quality of research within what they do.

 

And it only lists Universities.  There are also many highly regarded LACs out there.  Their quality/caliber shouldn't be looked down upon just because they don't make this list.  They are a different type of school (and many also have some research options).

 

My oldest and youngest opted for LACs.  Middle son wanted a Research U.  Different paths for different students.