Simple Chat about a college situation

[Granny_Weatherwax]

DS and I had an interesting experience yesterday.  He is in the running for a full-ride scholarship at a state uni.  This is not the state flagship and is not highly rated.

 

When we arrived we expected many (were told possibly 100) students to be in attendance for the interviews.  There were 23.  That's it.  Due to the low numbers DS and I thought that perhaps being awarded the scholarship was more prestigious than we first thought and that there was a screening process and many candidates had already been eliminated.

 

Throughout the day, as we chatted with other students, parents, and current scholarship winners, we found out that the 23 who were there were the only applicants who were qualified.  Everyone who applied that met the criteria and completed the supplement were there.  The chatter then switched to why so few high stats students apply to this particular school.  One of the things that has stuck with me all evening and into this morning is that almost every one of the scholarship winners admitted that this particular school was a safety.  Not one said it was a first or even second choice.  Every one also admitted the only reason for attending this school was due to winning the full-ride.  Each student expressed pleasure with the choice and referenced their research opportunities as freshman, off campus study opportunities and the benefits of being in the Honors program but there was always a hesitation.  Two young women, both freshmen, repeatedly stated that their first choice was Case Western and both were sad that they were unable to attend.

 

 

Some other interesting facts:

There was only one OOS student in the group.

DS and the OOS student were the only non-Chicagoland students.

The group was not diverse.  It was quite homogeneous and not representative of the student population.

 

The housing for Presidential scholars is wonderful. The school certainly is catering to those high stats students who do attend.

 

This has me thinking.  Is accepting a full-ride to a third rate school the best choice?  Is graduating debt free worth a bit of unhappiness and compromise?

 

We won't know for a few more weeks if DS is awarded the scholarship but all of this is fresh in my mind and, with DH being out of town, there is really no one around for me to speak with regarding my thoughts.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

It is not lost on me that I am also the one who shared the news story about the girl who is $167K in debt due to attending a private LAC so she could have her great college experience.

 

There has to be a middle ground. 

[MysteryJen]

Just anecdotal of course, but I knew a girl in high school who did take a full-ride to a state university (a decent, but not outstanding one). She transferred into high ranked elite school for her sophomore year. The state school was not a good fit for her, especially socially. But she was a but unusual.

 

But the smartest people I know went to undergrad on scholarship to big state universities, lived in the Honors dorm, got accepted into prestigious grad programs, and are doing very well.

 

You have to know your own kid.

[Barbara H]

This has me thinking.  Is accepting a full-ride to a third rate school the best choice?  Is graduating debt free worth a bit of unhappiness and compromise?

 

We won't know for a few more weeks if DS is awarded the scholarship but all of this is fresh in my mind and, with DH being out of town, there is really no one around for me to speak with regarding my thoughts.

 

I guess one big question is will there really be unhappiness? What kind of unhappiness? Will the benefits of being the "big fish" outweigh whatever limitations there are to this school environment? How are the "big fish" who currently attend doing?  Are they getting major awards, good grad school admissions, summer research opportunities, etc.? Can the school be flexible to waive some introductory courses and offer some special opportunities?

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

And what you have to wonder is out of those 23, how many will be awarded scholarships and actually attend.  That sounds like a very small honors program and as you mentioned, not diverse.  It is all about fit.  And I think that there is a lot of middle ground for those concerned with finances but not absolutely needing a full ride.  Hopefully your son gets the scholarship so he has this as one of his options.  Hopefully he gets other acceptances with workable finances so he has options.  I'd suggest he arrange for an overnight visit, if he gets the scholarship, and arrange to speak with professors in his major area(s). 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I guess one big question is will there really be unhappiness? What kind of unhappiness?

 

I don't really know.  I guess I am thinking about the two girls who were obviously upset about not attending their first choice schools.  I expect some sadness about not going to one's first choice and these girls were both freshmen so the disappointment is still fresh but, oh I don't know, there was no glow in their eyes, no extra spark.  There was definitely none of the salesmanship that we have seen on other college visits and tours.

 

I guess what has me thinking is this:  should the 23 families who were there even know that this school wasn't these particular student's first choice?  Should we know that one of them was Commended on NM but didn't get enough merit aid to attend anywhere else so she was at this uni by default?  Should we be happy that the girls were this honest?  Their openness definitely gave everyone a new perspective.  It was certainly more realistic and true to life than anything I expected.

 

The undercurrent was like this "We know you kids are talented. We know you are applying elsewhere. We know you will have options.  If none of those work out for you, this is what we can offer.  It's not that bad and you'll be debt free."

[8filltheheart]

 At ds's school they only invite 50 kids out of the qualified applicants for 40 spots. He was very interested in the program, but with reservations b/c he was unclear as to what the program actually offered.  All of the students there were definitely curious about the program, but all were equally qualified for top schools.  It was during the interview weekend when ds met currently involved students and the other kids interviewing for the program that he became totally jazzed about the opportunity.  It was only at that point that he made the decision that that was where he wanted to attend for sure. Each yr out of the 50, they do not accept a few the interviewing students and several make the decision to attend elsewhere.  They pull kids in from the reserve pool if they have vacancies.

 

What are the accomplishments of former students in the program at the school where your ds interviewed?   Ds's program has students that have gone on to top grad schools around the country, people who are top people in well-known businesses, etc.  They are a network of advocates for the program and its grads.

 

I don't know if they gave you that kind of feedback on the program your ds interviewed for or not.  But between that information and the actual undergrad opportunities it offered, ds didn't find it just the "middle ground."  He actually determined that for him, it was the top.  

 

Is there more to the program than just the scholarship?  Are they offered special mentors?  Unique educational experiences?  Extra guidance toward meeting career objectives?  Are former graduates still interested in the outcome of new students? etc?  Just wondering if there is something that sets the program above other options other than just financial reasons.

[8filltheheart]

I don't really know.  I guess I am thinking about the two girls who were obviously upset about not attending their first choice schools.  I expect some sadness about not going to one's first choice and these girls were both freshmen so the disappointment is still fresh but, oh I don't know, there was no glow in their eyes, no extra spark.  There was definitely none of the salesmanship that we have seen on other college visits and tours.

 

I guess what has me thinking is this:  should the 23 families who were there even know that this school wasn't these particular student's first choice?  Should we know that one of them was Commended on NM but didn't get enough merit aid to attend anywhere else so she was at this uni by default?  Should we be happy that the girls were this honest?  Their openness definitely gave everyone a new perspective.  It was certainly more realistic and true to life than anything I expected.

 

The undercurrent was like this "We know you kids are talented. We know you are applying elsewhere. We know you will have options.  If none of those work out for you, this is what we can offer.  It's not that bad and you'll be debt free."

 

I was typing when you posted.  That would make me wonder.  All of the kids in ds's program are thoroughly excited about the program and what they are getting from it.  Based on his description, I can't imagine any of them acting that way.  I can imagine them saying something, "well, I was accepted to x,y, and z, but I am glad I chose here b/c this is what I am being offered......." b/c that is simple truth.  I know that some of the kids they reject during the interview weekend are students who act like they are too good for the program and are there reluctantly.  They only want kids who want to be part of it and will bring to the program as well as receive from it.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

There could be a number of other undercurrents, including that the girls are upset that their parents aren't willing to take out large loans for their dream school. Maybe there was some insistence on also applying to places the family could afford.

I can't say that I'm terribly shocked to hear that an 18 year old was put out at a situation and expressed disappointment in a non tactful way.

 

I think your son should investigate the honors program, including corresponding with students who have been in it for a year or two rather than base his assessment on students who are just applying and know no more than he does about the school.

[8filltheheart]

Did I misunderstand? Are the freshman students who currently part of th program or were they interviewing? I assumed they were supposed to be there representing the program since ds's program is only open to incoming freshman.

[Trilliums]

You aren't alone in pondering these issues. 

Son won a scholarship at a regional school.  He toured the school and was warmly welcomed.  They obviously want him to attend and would provide much support.  But, they outright said that they expect DS to apply to other, more competitive schools.  They also discussed merits of our state flagship for son's particular area of interest.  I was impressed by their honesty actually.  They recognize that money is what they have to offer to high stat kids.

 

We also attended an awards ceremony at the school and the accomplishments of the students was impressive--many kids were going onto grad school/professional programs at well known institutions.   But, it was striking how many kids had triple majors and perfect gpas.  Class loads seemed pretty non-demanding, but on the flip side, this probably allows students to pursue research and volunteer programs to a greater degree.  I suspect the kids who achieve a lot at this school are kids who put themselves out there and MAKE opportunities for themselves. 

 

Son also attended a class section in his major and the level of discussion was fairly low.  One or two students provided the most discussion and asked the only questions.  I do not think this necessarily means that those high achieving students are poorly served.  They have the opportunity to really shine and gain one on one attention from the professors.  After visiting the school, son said he would attend if he did not have other opportunities.  He definitely got the feel that you get out of the program what you are willing to put into it, which is true of course of other schools.  But, the feeling was that at this school, you could easily just drift along, do the bare minimum and still graduate with honors.  If a student really wanted to grow and learn, they would have to have the self discipline to reach out beyond the bare minimum of what the school offers. 

 

 

[Julie of KY]

Does the school offer studies your student is interested in?

 

Is your student one that thrives by being challenged by better students or not?

 

What is the financial reality of going somewhere else - I wouldn't go into a bunch of debt.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Did I misunderstand? Are the freshman students who currently part of th program or were they interviewing? I assumed they were supposed to be there representing the program since ds's program is only open to incoming freshman.

 

No, you didn't misunderstand.  These young ladies are already in the program, freshman at the uni, and were representing the program.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I was typing when you posted.  That would make me wonder.  All of the kids in ds's program are thoroughly excited about the program and what they are getting from it.  Based on his description, I can't imagine any of them acting that way.  I can imagine them saying something, "well, I was accepted to x,y, and z, but I am glad I chose here b/c this is what I am being offered......." b/c that is simple truth.  I know that some of the kids they reject during the interview weekend are students who act like they are too good for the program and are there reluctantly.  They only want kids who want to be part of it and will bring to the program as well as receive from it.  

 

Your description is what I had anticipated.  Students who may have had other opportunities but still chose this program and are excited about it.

[musicianmom]

*

Edited May 22, 2022 by musicianmom

[Sebastian (a lady)]

No, you didn't misunderstand.  These young ladies are already in the program, freshman at the uni, and were representing the program.

 

Oh my.  Well that is pretty sad then.  Mostly for the girls in question.  

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Does the school offer studies your student is interested in?

 

Is your student one that thrives by being challenged by better students or not?

 

What is the financial reality of going somewhere else - I wouldn't go into a bunch of debt.

 

I guess my questions aren't directed toward my DS specifically but toward students in general.  Fit vs. debt free?  True happiness with uni/program vs. debt free?  Having a solid tribe vs debt free?

 

The other questions being asked (grad school placement, research opportunities, etc) are all great questions and we have some answers to those but I still find the reiteration by the current students that being debt free (the full ride) was the compelling reason to be there as questionable.  The other stuff, the opportunities, was secondary .

 

It's not like "Hey, I can begin research my freshman year and have a one-on-one relationship with Dr. XYZ and publish early and, btw, I got a full ride on top of it all."  It was "I was offered a full ride, will graduate debt free and am taking advantage of what is here."

[Granny_Weatherwax]

And what you have to wonder is out of those 23, how many will be awarded scholarships and actually attend. 

 

All 23 could be offered the scholarship or none might be offered.  From what we could determine, it's all about what each student will bring to the program.

 

The interview process for this scholarship is fairly new. This is only the second year for interviewing for scholarship determination.  Up until last year, from what we were told, the scholarships were automatic based on ACT/SAT scores.  For some reason the scholarship dept has opted to interview candidates instead.  I don't know if the reason is quality control or if they are trying to limit the number of scholarships offered.  Our state has had multiple cutbacks in education and scholarships are more difficult to earn at every state school.

[Artichoke]

I guess my questions aren't directed toward my DS specifically but toward students in general. Fit vs. debt free? True happiness with uni/program vs. debt free? Having a solid tribe vs debt free?

 

The other questions being asked (grad school placement, research opportunities, etc) are all great questions and we have some answers to those but I still find the reiteration by the current students that being debt free (the full ride) was the compelling reason to be there. The other stuff, the opportunities, was secondary .

 

It's not like "Hey, I can begin research my freshman year and have a one-on-one relationship with Dr. XYZ and publish early and, btw, I got a full ride on top of it all." It was "I was offered a full ride, will graduate debt free and am taking advantage of what is here."

We have a son who chose to go with his second choice school and is incredibly happy there. His decision came down to no debt and a stipend vs. about 200k in loans. Once he made his decision, he went with it and didn't bemoan the fact. It sounds like these girls may have a case of "the grass is greener" instead of fully appreciating a debt-free education.

 

Choosing a college does come with a price tag, and hopefully our children will heed that. It's little different than many other decisions in life -- Lexus vs. Toyota, this neighborhood or that, used or new furniture, etc. Everything has an opportunity cost.

[TechWife]

 Fit vs. debt free?  True happiness with uni/program vs. debt free?  Having a solid tribe vs debt free?

 

 

Part of finding the right fit is finding something that is a financial fit. It has to be a piece of the puzzle. 

 

Was there a major he was interested in? Were there any clubs or sports that he would like to do there? Sometimes a tribe can be far reaching - coming from different areas of interest instead of academics only. 

[TechWife]

We have a son who chose to go with his second choice school and is incredibly happy there. His decision came down to no debt and a stipend vs. about 200k in loans. Once he made his decision, he went with it and didn't bemoan the fact. It sounds like these girls may have a case of "the grass is greener" instead of fully appreciating a debt-free education.

 

I think you're onto something here. The problem may just lie with these girls. Perhaps they hang out together and feed off of each other instead of trying to get the most out of their education. I wonder, though, at the university would select them to represent the scholarship students and not some older scholarship students who have had the benefit of more experience at the university. 

[8filltheheart]

You know, I just realized something (feeling rather stupid here!) Though ds did receive some scholarship $ from the program, it was fairly small. The interview weekend was for acceptance into the program and students didn't even know they would get scholarship $$ from the program. (that was a surprise!) Bc ds has several stackable scholarships, it didn't dawn on me until a little while ago that the scholarship $$ and the program were not directly related. So at that point, it was the PROGRAM, not the $$ which drew the kids in. But, I do know other schools, like NCSU's Park Scholarship, do intertwine the 2. But Park adds a lot of additional benefits on top of the scholarship $$.

[Teachin'Mine]

Honors programs are not all equal.   What did your son think of the school overall and the honors program in particular?  With such a high percentage of students from the local area, what is it like there on the weekends?   (Do they tend to go home for weekends, or do they stay and participate in on-campus events?)  It surprises me that the honors class didn't have more active discussions.

 

The freshmen were being honest about why they chose the school, but I would think that after being there for a semester that they would have a much more positive spin on it than they did.  Does it also say something for the admissions people who chose them to represent the honors college?  Or were others in the program even more negative?   Or were the students free to say how they really feel and that's a positive compared to some which require them to give the propaganda spiel?  It surprises me that admissions chose only freshmen to represent the honors program.  Students who had been there longer than just one semester would have more interesting research and internship experiences to talk about.  If your son does visit, he may want to talk with them and see how they feel now about their decision to attend.

 

The honors program will affect his class experience and his research experience, and they may even have some separate social programs, but ultimately he'd be a member of of the whole student body.  Does the school meet his needs overall?  Maybe your son needs something to compare this school's honors program with.  Could you visit local state colleges with honors programs? 

 

You don't have to answer any of these questions here, but they're just the questions that came to mind that your son might want to think about.

 

[justasque]

When we were in a similar situation, one question we asked was, "These honors kids seem great.  But - how many of them are in the specific major that our dc is interested in?  How many of them, percentage-wise, can he expect to be in any given class he takes (whether in his major or not)?"  The answer came down to - not many, and perhaps not any. Which would have meant that our dc would be in classes that were aimed at kids who were working at a lower level (place, pace) than dc was capable of.  We decided against this "safety" school, and found a good-fit school that was in the middle of the money/challenge spectrum.  A bright relative did go to the honors program at the safety school (due to poor planning of the schools to which he applied - too many reaches (Ivies), the one safety, and nothing in the middle), and found the classes utterly unchallenging. 

[-M-]

Is accepting a full-ride to a third rate school the best choice?  Is graduating debt free worth a bit of unhappiness and compromise?

 

First of all, congratulations to your son. What an exciting opportunity! Did he think the university would do right by him in his field? Did he have an opportunity to meet with folks from his department? Best wishes to him as he awaits notification.

 

To your questions... For many majors and many students, it's not so much which college one attends but how he or she attends it (i.e., taking advantage of research and internship opportunities, focusing on studies, developing relationships with influential faculty and administrators, etc.). In such cases, accepting a scholarship and a spot in an honors program in a school some might perceive as "less than" is a good compromise, one that need not involve a whit of unhappiness.

 

My daughter is also in the running for a full-ride merit scholarship at a state university. The honors college and competitive scholarship are what initially attracted her, but she did not apply until she knew the university could meet her requirements, which included freshmen research opportunities and special opportunities and housing for honors students.

 

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that the young women who spoke with you at the program were tactless and less than gracious in communicating their "sadness" about not attending their first-choice college. It is one thing to acknowledge that you applied to other schools and that X or Y university was your first choice. It is quite another to express "sadness" that you did not attend X or Y when you are now engaged as a spokesperson for the school that is paying your tuition, room, and board!

 

As the recipient of full-ride merit scholarship package at a state college, I, too, was asked to speak at open house programs and scholar recruitment functions. It never occurred to me to express anything but excitement, gratitude, and enthusiasm for the college for which I was a student ambassador. (And, no, it was not my first choice. Several weeks into my senior year, my father came into my room, prodded by my mother, and repeated what I had heard her angrily discussing with him: "We can't afford any of this." Why no one had shared that information with me sooner in the process and why I was advised in such a disagreeable manner are two of about 5,628 inexplicable things about my family of origin, but there was a happy ending: I confided in a beloved teacher who guided me toward her alma mater. Unhappiness didn't cloud my application and admission. I experienced relief, excitement, and soon enough, honor and pride.) If my daughter is fortunate enough to earn a similar opportunity, I know she, too, will be an ardent ambassador, as she would not accept the award unless she believes she and the school would be a good "match" with much to gain from the "relationship."

 

When you linked the article about the Monmouth student, I immediately shared it with my husband as he and I continue to be baffled by parents who think that simply because their children want something and / or are eligible for something that they should have that something, no matter what it is or how much it costs. The article notes that the student's parents may "lose everything." It took four years for them to figure that out? And who is paying for that young woman's hair maintenance? The cut and color on that lovely mane could set one back $100 monthly. I'm not being snarky or facetious. She has mountains of college debt -- and still enough time and treasure to keep up the faux tan and great hair? Amazing. And now she's headed to San Diego. Twenty-two years ago, my husband and I fled SoCal after less than three years there to ensure that someday we could own a home and retire. It was so expensive -- and we were working fulltime jobs in our fields, not serving at a restaurant chain! As one of the commenters to that article pointed out, the student could have attended the community college and transferred to WIU and graduated with far less debt.

 

Which (sort of) brings me back to my opening idea: For some students and some majors, compromise is definitely in order because the "better" school may simply not be worth the bigger price tag. After all, who thinks going $150,000 into debt for a public relations degree is a smart plan?

 

Perhaps some will be unhappy with this analogy, but here is an idea my husband and I have been batting about: If a family can afford to provide a car for their young driver, they usually look for a vehicle that is safe, reliable, and reasonably priced. (For the purposes of this analogy, we set aside the parents who will indulge their kids in what's "cool" or "in.") Safety, reliability, and cost-effectiveness. Those are the considerations. The parents don't generally send the teen driver off to search for a vehicle without outlining how much can be spent and on what sorts of features. I'm not sure why we would set our prospective college students off without similar information. This is what we will contribute. We will never set a limit on how high you aim, but we will also not risk our financial future on a big-ticket college simply because you were admitted. If you want to attend XYZ, do what you can to earn merit aid. After that, let's crunch numbers. Be prepared with some alternatives that also meet your needs.

 

We've been having conversations like this with our students since, oh, they were able to understand that working hard and earning the right stats do not guarantee anything.

 

Anyway, those are some thoughts I had after reading this post and the one in which you linked the article. Again, congratulations and best wishes to your son!

[creekland]

I would ditch the school if there are any other (better) affordable options.

 

I see multiple kids go to colleges each year.  Some return to tell their stories.  The vast majority end up loving where they go even if it wasn't originally their first choice.  The main common denominators of those who don't are:

 

1)  Too much debt

2)  WAY underchallenged with few (if any) academic peers

3)  Poor fit (urban vs rural, etc - not finding their tribe, etc)

 

My youngest has been in discussion with us about #3 since Christmas break.  The chances are looking good that he will change schools (or quit college entirely).  He just hasn't been able to find males he can connect with at Eckerd and it's getting to him.  I feel bummed as he likes the school otherwise, but I'm certainly not going to make him stay.  I am going to try to have him investigate other options, but I think, at this point, it's turned him off from college totally.

 

The same happens with the other two categories.  Those kids wonder what the big deal about college is and end up wishing they hadn't gone where they ended up even if they "succeed" afterward.  It's sad.  And with the underchallenged bit, they certainly are.  Courses are far easier than they are elsewhere and there are far fewer opportunities for research and things.  Middle son has a peer who is wishing he had gone elsewhere after the two of them discussed what they were doing - and were able to do - at their respective schools.

 

Based upon what you've said about the program, I'd be ditching it.  If you don't feel you've investigated it enough, then do that first (what opportunities are there - are there peers, etc).

 

There usually is a middle ground that is affordable.  It doesn't have to be "too much debt" as an alternative.

 

And I mentioned youngest's deal because I was thinking that was a college your guy was interested in and want to be honest with what my guy is (not) finding in a peer group that doesn't care for non-drinking, etc.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

My youngest has been in discussion with us about #3 since Christmas break.  The chances are looking good that he will change schools (or quit college entirely).  He just hasn't been able to find males he can connect with at Eckerd and it's getting to him.  I feel bummed as he likes the school otherwise, but I'm certainly not going to make him stay.  I am going to try to have him investigate other options, but I think, at this point, it's turned him off from college totally.

 

 

And I mentioned youngest's deal because I was thinking that was a college your guy was interested in and want to be honest with what my guy is (not) finding in a peer group that doesn't care for non-drinking, etc.

 

Thanks for sharing this particular bit of info.  Yes, DS has applied to Eckerd. The male/female ratio and finding a tribe is something that comes up in conversation as we discuss feasibility and fit.  At this point Eckerd is not a financial possibility; we are waiting on financial aid for the final determination.  Of the 3 schools DS has been accepted to, Eckerd offered the least amount of merit aid (in relation to COA) and has the highest price tag.

 

I am sad to hear your DS isn't having a better time second semester and that his experience is such that he is thinking about dropping out of college all together.  He sounds like someone my DS would get along with well.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I would ditch the school if there are any other (better) affordable options.

 

I see multiple kids go to colleges each year.  Some return to tell their stories.  The vast majority end up loving where they go even if it wasn't originally their first choice.  The main common denominators of those who don't are:

 

1)  Too much debt

2)  WAY underchallenged with few (if any) academic peers

3)  Poor fit (urban vs rural, etc - not finding their tribe, etc)

 

 

At this point, crossing this particular school of the list isn't possible.  DS is in the Admission Twilight Zone and we still have about 6 weeks(or more) to go before all decisions are received.  Right now, every admission must be considered, especially if merit aid is good.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

As I dig deeper into the state uni, I have found that it has never had a Rhodes scholar although one student was interviewed a couple of years ago.

What's interesting about that student?  He was homeschooled.  The article focused on his homeschooling and how it contributed to his unique way of  engaging with his professors and approaching academics.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Honors programs are not all equal.   What did your son think of the school overall and the honors program in particular?  With such a high percentage of students from the local area, what is it like there on the weekends?   (Do they tend to go home for weekends, or do they stay and participate in on-campus events?)  It surprises me that the honors class didn't have more active discussions.

It is viewed as a Chicagoland commuter school.  Students are on campus Mon morning -Fri afternoon but leave for the weekend.  The parking lots were practically empty and we saw precious few students on campus, although it was cold and a storm was approaching(15-18 inches of snow ended up falling that night and the next morning).  The majority of people we did see were there for an admitted students day(not the same as the scholarship competition).

 

The freshmen were being honest about why they chose the school, but I would think that after being there for a semester that they would have a much more positive spin on it than they did.  Does it also say something for the admissions people who chose them to represent the honors college?  I wonder if the scholarship committee is even aware of what these young women were saying.  The scholarship recipients were the group leaders and the adults were available only during the large group sessions and during the interviews.  The tours and breakouts were lead by the students.  It was during the breakouts, when the parents were asking the questions and the high schoolers had taken a back seat, that the above mentioned conversations took place.   Or were others in the program even more negative?   Our group leaders weren't negative but they weren't stellar either. Or were the students free to say how they really feel and that's a positive compared to some which require them to give the propaganda spiel?  It surprises me that admissions chose only freshmen to represent the honors program.  There were about 8 student representatives.  Not all were freshmen.  These two young ladies just happened to be the ones with whom we were sitting during the breakout session. Both were well spoken and carried themselves well; it was obvious why they were awarded the scholarships.  Students who had been there longer than just one semester would have more interesting research and internship experiences to talk about.  If your son does visit, he may want to talk with them and see how they feel now about their decision to attend. Honestly, I think/hope the committee set it up this way (maybe) as a result of the recent changes in how scholarships, the honors program, and the fellowships are awarded.  The new university president has been making sweeping changes in an attempt to raise the reputation, academic level and competitiveness of the uni.  He has been in office two years so there hasn't been a lot of time to see tangible results.  They hope to see initial results beginning with the class that graduates in 2017, with full data not anticipated until about 5 years after that.

 

The honors program will affect his class experience and his research experience, and they may even have some separate social programs, but ultimately he'd be a member of of the whole student body.  Does the school meet his needs overall?  Maybe your son needs something to compare this school's honors program with.  Could you visit local state colleges with honors programs? 

 

You don't have to answer any of these questions here, but they're just the questions that came to mind that your son might want to think about.

 

I think I may have unintentionally muddled things a bit.  This particular competition is for a Presidential Scholarship only, not admission into the honors program.  All Presidential scholars are automatically admitted to the Honors College but there are other students in Honors as well. DS has already received his Honors College acceptance.

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

You aren't alone in pondering these issues. 

Son won a scholarship at a regional school.  He toured the school and was warmly welcomed.  They obviously want him to attend and would provide much support.  But, they outright said that they expect DS to apply to other, more competitive schools.  They also discussed merits of our state flagship for son's particular area of interest.  I was impressed by their honesty actually.  They recognize that money is what they have to offer to high stat kids. This is what I think is going on at this particular uni.

 

We also attended an awards ceremony at the school and the accomplishments of the students was impressive--many kids were going onto grad school/professional programs at well known institutions.   But, it was striking how many kids had triple majors and perfect gpas.  This too.  Some of the students we spoke to have double majors and two or three minors.Class loads seemed pretty non-demanding, but on the flip side, this probably allows students to pursue research and volunteer programs to a greater degree.  This uni offers a new research opportunity for high achieving freshman.  The first year(freshman year) the student is a research assistant for a professor.  The second year the student gains more independence.  Junior year the student begins total independent research with independent publication anticipated by the senior year.  I suspect the kids who achieve a lot at this school are kids who put themselves out there and MAKE opportunities for themselves. 

 

Son also attended a class section in his major and the level of discussion was fairly low.  One or two students provided the most discussion and asked the only questions.  I do not think this necessarily means that those high achieving students are poorly served.  They have the opportunity to really shine and gain one on one attention from the professors.  After visiting the school, son said he would attend if he did not have other opportunities.  He definitely got the feel that you get out of the program what you are willing to put into it, which is true of course of other schools.  But, the feeling was that at this school, you could easily just drift along, do the bare minimum and still graduate with honors.  If a student really wanted to grow and learn, they would have to have the self discipline to reach out beyond the bare minimum of what the school offers. 

 

The bolded part is what I think will happen at this university.  Success will depend on the student looking for and taking opportunities.

 

[8filltheheart]

I think the bolded is true at any university: elite, avg, or otherwise. Students can attend class and party the rest of the time and drift along via the social scene. Or kids can search out educational opportunities outside of the classroom and benefit from that broader experience while balancing their educational life and their social life.

 

I personally don't believe that most universities are such an academic wasteland that even brilliant kids can't find academic worth. Maybe I over estimate my kids' abilities and over estimate their college educations, but I don't think that is reality. I don't doubt that there are some extremely poor schools out there, but I don't believe that somehow only a handful of schools can meet the needs of top students.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I think the bolded is true at any university: elite, avg, or otherwise. Students can attend class and party the rest of the time and drift along via the social scene. Or kids can search out educational opportunities outside of the classroom and benefit from that broader experience while balancing their educational life and their social life.

 

I personally don't believe that most universities are such an academic wasteland that even brilliant kids can't find academic worth. Maybe I over estimate my kids' abilities and over estimate their college educations, but I don't think that is reality. I don't doubt that there are some extremely poor schools out there, but I don't believe that somehow only a handful of schools can meet the needs of top students.

 

I completely agree and I apologize if my statements make anyone think that only top schools are preferable for high stats students. 

 

I do wonder, though, if is easier to push oneself toward finding opportunities and reaching for lofty goals at a school where there is a larger number of students who are also pushing themselves?  Where competition or mutual support is available?  Isn't that what the Big Fish-Little Pond debate is all about?

 

ETA:  Just to further the conversation ~ then why do we look at grad school admissions rates, awards earned, job placement, etc?  A uni with grad school admissions rates of 35-50% is not equivalent to a school with higher rates.  I realize this line of thinking takes us to other issues associated with the higher ed system.

[MysteryJen]

:iagree: For me, having known so many brilliant people who went to state schools, 8's statement is absolutely correct. The difference, for many kids, is maturity and self-knowledge. Kids need to be mature enough to avoid the party scene and seek out professors and classes on their own. And, if they know what they want to do or what they love to study it makes everything easier.

 

Ds1 has no idea what he wants to do. He would have floated around a big school, taking the easy path. He needed a small school where he wasn't going to get lost.

 

Dd1 will most likely be at a big university. But a swim team will buffer some of the challenges, I hope.

[Teachin'Mine]

Is it possible for him to consider applying to more colleges?   Here's a very abbreviated list of colleges still accepting applications, but I'm sure that there's a more comprehensive one available with some searching.  https://www.universalcollegeapp.com/accepting The other thing I would look into is if he were to receive the scholarship and attend there, what would be his options for transferring.   Would any of the state universities with honors programs offer similar benefits?  Are there other higher-rated state schools with great honors programs which would offer him some merit aid?  They may not be full ride, but the cost may be worth the benefits of more engaged students and more challenging academics.   All state colleges and their honors programs are not equal.  This is not at all about only a few colleges being worthy, but about finding the right academic fit which is also affordable.

 

Of course he may end up with an option out of his current applications which will work well for him, but if not, he may want to consider a gap year.  That would give him time to find some better options, earn some money and/or do something interesting and fun, and still apply with the full benefits of a freshman applicant.  Just a thought.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Is it possible for him to consider applying to more colleges?   Here's a very abbreviated list of colleges still accepting applications, but I'm sure that there's a more comprehensive one available with some searching.  https://www.universalcollegeapp.com/accepting The other thing I would look into is if he were to receive the scholarship and attend there, what would be his options for transferring.   Would any of the state universities with honors programs offer similar benefits?  Are there other higher-rated state schools with great honors programs which would offer him some merit aid?  They may not be full ride, but the cost may be worth the benefits of more engaged students and more challenging academics.   All state colleges and their honors programs are not equal.  This is not at all about only a few colleges being worthy, but about finding the right academic fit which is also affordable.

 

Of course he may end up with an option out of his current applications which will work well for him, but if not, he may want to consider a gap year.  That would give him time to find some better options, earn some money and/or do something interesting and fun, and still apply with the full benefits of a freshman applicant.  Just a thought.

 

I am trying my best not to make this conversation about my DS but about students in general.  There were only 23 students, out of over 20,000 applicants, who either qualified for or chose to apply for the presidential scholarship.  This is what I find interesting.

 

What does this simple statistic reveal about the school?  the students who choose to attend?  the students who choose not to attend?  Obviously, there is something keeping high stats students from 'taking the next step' at this particular school.

[Hoggirl]

I completely agree and I apologize if my statements make anyone think that only top schools are preferable for high stats students.

 

I do wonder, though, if is easier to push oneself toward finding opportunities and reaching for lofty goals at a school where there is a larger number of students who are also pushing themselves? Where competition or mutual support is available? Isn't that what the Big Fish-Little Pond debate is all about?

 

I think this is the big unknown and what can be so worrisome in these kinds of situations. I believe that the answer will depend on the individual student and there is simply no way to know ahead of time if a child will continue to challenge himself.

 

As far as your experience with the scholarship weekend and how these young women feel about where the ultimately landed, it's also impossible to know why the feel that way. It could be many things. I will say, as I have said before, that parents do themselves and their children a disservice when they are pie-in-the-sky about admissions and ability to afford schools. I have expressed here before that ds had classmates who made comments along the lines of, "It makes me sick to my stomach to think I might have to go to the local state U." Well, guess what? That's where several of them wound up either because they didn't get into their "dream" school or because the dream school was unaffordable for their parents. I personally heard two moms dissing the local state university and how their kids had NO interest in going there. If you (not literal you, I mean this figuratively) go around acting like having to attend a public state university whether flagship or directional is beneath you, then, of course, the kid is going to feel like s/he had to settle. These moms had to do all kinds of backpeddling when Big State U wound up being the only viable option for their respective children. I am not saying YOU are doing this, OP.

 

I was certainly not the poster parent for admirable behavior during the admissions cycle, and I am sure I could have handled MANY aspects of it far better than I did. However, the one thing I do think I did correctly early on was to emphasize the "love thy safety," concept. Ds had three safeties. We rejoiced/celebrated/got excited about every single acceptance he received, regardless of school rank/prestige whatever. We were enthusiastic about specific opportunities at each of the three safeties and made a big deal about how much merit money ds had "earned" because of his hard work and academic achievement. I wanted him to feel good about all the options he had. If they were not good options, they were not on the list of schools he applied to. You cannot, as a parent, go around acting like anything "below" fill-in-the-blank school is not going to be good enough for my little snowflake. You cannot, as a parent, beat yourself up or express guilt because you don't have the financial resources to tell your kid he can go anywhere he likes. My point is, if a parent acts like a child is having to settle, the kid will feel that way, too. This is how ds's classmates felt when all the dust settled, and I blame their parents. Now, children themselves, can get all high and mighty on their own about where they are "entitled" to go or where they "deserve" to go, so I am not saying the parents were necessarily the cause of the attitudes of these young women. But you never know. You can't keep a kid from having a dream school - but, as an adult, you can certainly keep yourself from jumping on that ridiculous bandwagon. Again, I am not saying you are doing this, OP.

 

Sorry - this is all rambling and kind of rant-y. I have been trying to figure out how to respond to this query for a couple of days. A go-getter kid may always be a go-getter kid, even if not surrounded by gobs of academic peers. But maybe not. He may become lazy and complacent. A kid who has always been a big fish may struggle horribly no longer being the big fish if he IS surrounded by gobs of academic peers. A kid may push himself more if he is surrounded by those who are stronger academically than he. You just can't know ahead of time. Pond sizes, fish sizes, number of fish - I'm not saying that doesn't matter at all, but I am saying it mostly depends on YOUR particular fish, and you cannot predict what that that little booger will do.

 

ETA: "ComplaceMent?" Egads! I really do proof what I submit - epic fail! Ha ha! I fixed it!

[angela in ohio]

It wasn't worth it to me. It took me so far off-track that I never finished college at all.

 

I accepted one of the four top "full-ride plus" scholarships at a mid-level state school. I had an opportunity at a better out-of-state state school, but it would have been a few thousand a year after scholarships. I am 100% sure it was the wrong choice. The debt would have been worth it.

 

It wasn't that I couldn't find opportunities there, and I took advantage of every honors program and class. But it didn't compensate for the overall culture, which can eventually get to even the most motivated student.

[Teachin'Mine]

I am trying my best not to make this conversation about my DS but about students in general.  There were only 23 students, out of over 20,000 applicants, who either qualified for or chose to apply for the presidential scholarship.  This is what I find interesting.

 

What does this simple statistic reveal about the school?  the students who choose to attend?  the students who choose not to attend?  Obviously, there is something keeping high stats students from 'taking the next step' at this particular school.

 

Only 23 out of 20,000 applicants would concern me.   But as it's all about fit, students faced with this choice would have to ask themselves if they would do their best as one of the few top students in an otherwise less academically rigorous school, or not.  Some would, and some wouldn't, and as Hoggirl said, with some you just don't know ahead of time.

[Teachin'Mine]

Some thoughts about how to evaluate honors college programs in general ..   Check out the listing of honors courses, (many programs have limited selections but try to make it look like more, so look carefully for courses posted under different headings)  look at the current semester's honors course selections, find out the policy for taking courses on an honors level beyond those listed as an honors course.  As a student I would look to see if the offerings are of interest, look at the ratings of the professors as these are usually some of the top professors, see if it would only be requirement fillers or electives vs courses in my major.  I'd look if there are lots of time conflicts as some interdisciplinary honors courses meet for large chunks of time and may or may not fit in with other courses.  I'd look at the research opportunities and even read about the list of presenters and what their research involved.  I'd look for internship info or contact the head of my major department for more specific info.  I'd look to see if there is specific honors housing and social events and the level of participation.  I'd look to see if the school overall would be a good fit as well.

 

The above would give me an idea of how much of my academic life would be based in the honors college, and how much of it would be based on the regular academics.  I would also look at web sites where current students rate their school and look not just at the rating, but read what they wrote in the comments.  This gives you some idea.  The disgruntled students may be more prone to voicing their opinions, but it's just more info to think about and investigate.

[raptor_dad]

No, you didn't misunderstand.  These young ladies are already in the program, freshman at the uni, and were representing the program.

 

Some degree of buyer's remorse is common. The whole point of these large scholarships is to recruit kids who don't fit the school's profile. However, I think the fact that the program can't find some enthusiastic current students is a huge red flag. Either lots of the current kids are alienated from the school or the scholarship program doesn't provide enough support and mentorship to know who would make a good ambassador. Either way that would be concerning. Plenty of lower tier schools can find enthusiastic, thriving scholarship kids to host students and serve on panels etc...

 

[creekland]

I am trying my best not to make this conversation about my DS but about students in general.  There were only 23 students, out of over 20,000 applicants, who either qualified for or chose to apply for the presidential scholarship.  This is what I find interesting.

 

What does this simple statistic reveal about the school?  the students who choose to attend?  the students who choose not to attend?  Obviously, there is something keeping high stats students from 'taking the next step' at this particular school.

 

At our public high school we have three levels of classes (NOT counting the physical learning issue kids).  Level Three is supposed to prepare for four year college bound.  Level Two is supposed to prepare for community college or lower level college bound.  Level One is supposed to prepare for non-college bound.  The latter just want to graduate high school.

 

In reality, levels 2 and 3 can intermix a bit and kids can still do well going to four year schools or community college or whatever.  However, on occasion we get Level Three capable seniors who opt to take Level One because they want "easy" their senior year.  They are super bored and learn nothing (esp since the standard tends to be an 8th grade level for these classes).  It doesn't matter how much they want to put into the class.  The teacher is there to teach to the majority of the students and the other students just aren't at their level of understanding or desire to understand.

 

Similar deals happen at college - up a notch from high school - but not by much.

 

State schools - esp flagship schools?  They are often just fine and can easily beat the private schools for fields like engineering as they tend to have more funding.  They usually offer a bit of research options too.

 

But schools where the average SAT/ACT score and/or GPA is tons below the incoming student... well, the prof can only teach to the students they have too.

 

That's when top kids get bored and wonder WTH?

 

Are there a handful of suitable schools?  Not at all.  There are many.  Are all schools equal (in content/opportunities) as options?  Not at all.  Not even close.

[-M-]

 

What does this simple statistic reveal about the school?  the students who choose to attend?  the students who choose not to attend?  Obviously, there is something keeping high stats students from 'taking the next step' at this particular school.

 

It's a shame the Rhodes Scholar candidate wasn't able to meet with the Presidential Scholarship candidates. That certainly would have been motivating. I think the story of his success is actually an endorsement (i.e., look what one motivated and unconventionally educated student has done with his --U education).

 

I can speak to why my "high stats" student chose not to apply to the college you visited, even after being advised of the opportunities that awaited her: Neither she nor her sister relished the idea of living on that campus or in that area. It's... bleak, to say the least.

[-M-]

As I dig deeper into the state uni, I have found that it has never had a Rhodes scholar although one student was interviewed a couple of years ago.

What's interesting about that student?  He was homeschooled.  The article focused on his homeschooling and how it contributed to his unique way of  engaging with his professors and approaching academics.

 

Well, you mentioned that your son had also applied to Eckerd. They've only had one Rhodes Scholar, and that was back in 1977. I'm not certain that --U's lack of a winner is necessarily a deal-breaker.

[-M-]

If it involved an essay, it is most likely due to them overscheduling themselves and not getting the application finished. Or, they couldnt come and are doing the interview at another time. My son had a deadline last weekend for one honors app..but with all the extracurricular events that were not on the schedule until after the year started, he had to find time....uploaded the completed app 15 min before the deadline, as he didnt want to submit a rough draft and it was tough to schedule time to revise.

 

We have run into this, too. It is not easy -- at. all. -- to keep up on the "extra" applications. And the essays! And coordinating the letters of recommendation. And clearing weekends to travel for interviews. And so on. My youngest is completing all of this in the interstices studies (she's enrolled fulltime at the local college as a dual-enrolled high school senior), music practice and lessons, and work permit. We all said, "Thank goodness for the winter break!" But there is still a bit more to do. It has been exciting, to be sure, but I am now looking forward to our May vacation, when all of this is done. Heh, heh, heh.

[creekland]

Well, you mentioned that your son had also applied to Eckerd. They've only had one Rhodes Scholar, and that was back in 1977. I'm not certain that --U's lack of a winner is necessarily a deal-breaker.

 

If I'm remembering correctly, the Eckerd App was due to wanting Marine Science (the same reason my guy wanted to go there in the first place).  Eckerd, IMHO, is the TOP school for Marine Science.  NOAA's Hollings Scholarship attests to that (as well as what their graduates do).  U Miami comes in second and I would imagine a fair number of their winners come from their meteorology program as much as their marine science.  Even with that, they are still far back in second place for overall winners.  Eckerd wins easily.

 

http://theonlinecurrent.com/hollings-scholarship-winners-provide-eckerd-a-legacy/

[Granny_Weatherwax]

If it involved an essay, it is most likely due to them overscheduling themselves and not getting the application finished. Or, they couldnt come and are doing the interview at another time. My son had a deadline last weekend for one honors app..but with all the extracurricular events that were not on the schedule until after the year started, he had to find time....uploaded the completed app 15 min before the deadline, as he didnt want to submit a rough draft and it was tough to schedule time to revise.

 

There was an essay.  It was short, though, and there were about 8 prompts.  Some of them were quite fun.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

If I'm remembering correctly, the Eckerd App was due to wanting Marine Science (the same reason my guy wanted to go there in the first place).  Eckerd, IMHO, is the TOP school for Marine Science.  NOAA's Hollings Scholarship attests to that (as well as what their graduates do).  U Miami comes in second and I would imagine a fair number of their winners come from their meteorology program as much as their marine science.  Even with that, they are still far back in second place for overall winners.  Eckerd wins easily.

 

http://theonlinecurrent.com/hollings-scholarship-winners-provide-eckerd-a-legacy/

 

Yes, he is still interested in Marine Science.  Eckerd does enjoy a nice reputation for MS.  DS's main concern with EC is whether or not there will be anything else there for him if something should happen and he decides to switch majors.

[-M-]

If I'm remembering correctly, the Eckerd App was due to wanting Marine Science (the same reason my guy wanted to go there in the first place).  Eckerd, IMHO, is the TOP school for Marine Science.  NOAA's Hollings Scholarship attests to that (as well as what their graduates do).  U Miami comes in second and I would imagine a fair number of their winners come from their meteorology program as much as their marine science.  Even with that, they are still far back in second place for overall winners.  Eckerd wins easily.

 

http://theonlinecurrent.com/hollings-scholarship-winners-provide-eckerd-a-legacy/

 

You've misunderstood me. I am not comparing --U to Eckerd; I am positing that the number of Rhodes scholars is not necessarily a strike for or against a college or university.

 

Related but off this post's topic: Given the high regard you have for Eckerd, I realize more fully how heartbreaking it must be for you to learn that it is not necessarily a good fit for your son (re: the semester update thread). The excerpt from his note was so sad. I hope it all works out for him. Best regards.

[creekland]

Related but off this post's topic: Given the high regard you have for Eckerd, I realize more fully how heartbreaking it must be for you to learn that it is not necessarily a good fit for your son (re: the semester update thread). The excerpt from his note was so sad. I hope it all works out for him. Best regards.

 

Definitely true.  I wish they attracted more guys like my guy.  He seemed to enjoy the school itself even when he switched out of Marine Science (too limiting for him as he likes land flora and fauna as well as marine).  I still secretly hope he can find a friend or two and decide it's worth staying, but if not, I'll support a transfer to a school he thinks he might like better.  At the moment, he's not thinking of continuing at any college (sigh).