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Classical Conversations, Are they paid to recruit?


Mom22ns
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The CC groups in my area are in recruitment overdrive mode right now. Every question that gets asked on any local forum or FB group gets the same response, there is a CC group near you with a full set of information on how to join. So:

"My 7 year old is struggling with math."

"Here is a CC group you can join!"

 

"I'm trying to choose a science curriculum for next year."

"Here is a CC you can join!"

 

We are looking for fun ways to interact with other homeschoolers... you get the idea.

 

Are CC leaders paid based on the number in their group? Is this all about money? I'm so, so tired of it, seriously.

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I notice it too.  Mostly because I wish "here's a CC you can join!" would be followed up by, except you you filthy atheist.  ;)   But seriously, it is only open to a particular creed, so it is just simply not a solution for vast swaths of people.

 

Classical Conversions :)

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I'm convinced it's the homeschool version of Amway.

 

:lol:

 

I have six reasons for not joining CC.

 

1. If I'm going to pay a million dollars per year I'll put the dc in our local Catholic high school, instead, or at least really go to town on extra-curriculars, because

 

2. I'm not paying fees like that to persons no more qualified than myself to teach the subjects.

 

3. I don't like the curriculum choices.

 

4. I don't want to give up one instruction day per week for my children while I still have to teach or help somebody else's kids on that day. (flipside of this - I don't want to supervise my dc at some other teacher's homework)

 

5. When CC moved into my area I was heavily recruited because I'd been somewhat involved in homeschool leadership locally and everybody referred CC proselytizers to my door. I was love bombed. They might have got me, especially when they offered me the chance to be a director* to cut the cost, except for the fact that I was entirely distracted by all the typos, misspellings, and grammatical errors in every single missive I received.

 

6. The most controversial, probably -- I don't want to place my children into a bubble where all of the people are of the same financial means and religion. That's antithetical to one of my primary reasons for homeschooling, which is to teach my children that you don't have to be WASP to read the classics and study Latin. This keeps me out of nearly all homeschool co-ops, not just CC.

 

*Being a director means your kids get to play for cheaper but you are going to work like an absolute dog. Better off picking up the breakfast shift at McDonalds to pay for your kids' extra activities than to "earn" them this way. Just my two cents on that.

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I'm convinced it's the homeschool version of Amway.

LOLOLOLOLOL!

 

Seriously though I'm getting kind of cranky when people do this.

 

Ask a question about how to home school something.

 

Get response of coops, charters and so forth so we don't have to home school it.

 

I have gotten rather snippy about it and have started saying, "I was actually interested in teaching my kids myself, hence asking how to teach this as a home schooler. I'm not interested in just sending them to a different type of school, tyvm."

 

Plus, based on 12 years experience, I have an exceedingly low opinion of coops. I've yet to see one of academic intergrity. I hope others have more luck, but this over a decade long observation has most certainly tainted my views.

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I'm convinced it's the homeschool version of Amway.

I'm not on FB so no personal experience but from the descriptions I thought to sounded like Mary Kay cosmetics.

 

EVERY MK conversation I've ever had included the following:

 

me: thanks, but I don't wear makeup

 

MK: do I look like I'm wearing make-up? *shoves makeup wearing face closer to me*

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I looked at CC a while back.  But for the price of the upper level programs, considering it's *one* day per week, you might as well send your kid to private school.

 

So I did.  :D

 

Seriously though... I had a lot of questions they couldn't answer, and it seemed to be a LOT of hoop jumping.  First, you need to come to a meeting or open house, then your child can come for a visit day, THEN maybe we'll let you in.  Oh, and check please.  And yes, based on a few of the e-mails I received, I don't want them teaching my child writing or grammar.  Sigh.

 

 

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Do the teachers get paid per student or per class?

I really wonder this!

 

The prices are outrageous and the curriculum choices are, well, let's just go with, not well matched to mine. Every new homeschooler in my area gets BOMBARDED by them though. From the messages, you would swear it was impossible to homeschool without CC, and if you do, certainly your child will not get a good education. Oh, but wait! Ds has already been admitted to every college/honors program that he applied to with excellent merit money. But we didn't do CC! Impossible!

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I looked at CC a while back.  But for the price of the upper level programs, considering it's *one* day per week, you might as well send your kid to private school.

Boy howdy, you weren't kidding. It's more than $1200/yr for Challenge. That buys a lot of online classes, dvd courses, Teaching Company, etc. That's quite a chunk of change for one day a week, non-professional tutor who doesn't grade and may not really know much math or Latin or physics.

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Well, I, for one, appreciate being approached by the people who invented homeschooling. Y'all are so ungrateful to these pioneers.

 

(Sarcasm font not working on my phone today, unfortunately, but this is the vibe I get from them locally--all these people with first and second graders telling me how awesome homeschooling is with CC, as I tour colleges with my superstar who managed to excel without them.)

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No, they don't get paid directly for their recruiting, but they are tasked with having information meetings until they are full. This is their heavy recruitment month. Our local homeschool facebook group administrators put some policies in place this year, because with 7 communities actively recruiting in our area, it became clear very quickly that the IM notices were going to take over the newsfeed.

 

According to an interview (https://www.classicalconversations.com/article/interview-robert-bortins-ceo) with the CEO, they have very aggressive goals for expansion. Robert Bortins says about their growth projections: " Our stretch goal is 1% of all students by 2021, which would be about 580,000 students. In order to have enough leaders to reach this goal, we will need to hire and train about 50,000 tutors, directors, and other leaders."

I am a little concerned about the Homeschool NOW efforts as well. I contacted the person at the HSLDA in charge of packing up and sending the homeschool information meeting packets for those efforts. There is a card included for people to fill out and return for more information on home schooling. Anyone who checks a box signifying interest in Classical education or groups/co-ops will be forwarded onto CC, the "experts in those areas." 
They are expanding their marketing to people simply considering home schooling.

I share this information, so that people understand how they are trying to change the landscape of home schooling. They are very aware of numbers and market share.


 

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No, they don't get paid directly for their recruiting, but they are tasked with having information meetings until they are full. This is their heavy recruitment month. Our local homeschool facebook group administrators put some policies in place this year, because with 7 communities actively recruiting in our area, it became clear very quickly that the IM notices were going to take over the newsfeed.

 

According to an interview (https://www.classicalconversations.com/article/interview-robert-bortins-ceo) with the CEO, they have very aggressive goals for expansion. Robert Bortins says about their growth projections: " Our stretch goal is 1% of all students by 2021, which would be about 580,000 students. In order to have enough leaders to reach this goal, we will need to hire and train about 50,000 tutors, directors, and other leaders."

 

I am a little concerned about the Homeschool NOW efforts as well. I contacted the person at the HSLDA in charge of packing up and sending the homeschool information meeting packets for those efforts. There is a card included for people to fill out and return for more information on home schooling. Anyone who checks a box signifying interest in Classical education or groups/co-ops will be forwarded onto CC, the "experts in those areas." They are expanding their marketing to people simply considering home schooling.

 

I share this information, so that people understand how they are trying to change the landscape of home schooling. They are very aware of numbers and market share.

 

 

I think they are too and frankly, I view them as a threat to home schooling. They are not interested in traditional parent home schooling and they most certainly are not encouraging of that in my opinion. And sadly it's just one more strike against HSLDA too. I have not felt comfortable with them for many years.

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I heard a lot about them when I was living in Northern VA.  There program did not fit my kids at all. I hadn't heard anything from them since I moved here in 2011.  I just checked the site and there seem to be a number of programs locally.  Nothing I am interested in- neither for my senior daughter or for myself next year to do as I retire from homeschooling.

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My dd did Challenge A last year. It was a good year for her and really helped her writing skills. And she learned some good work habits as well as study skills. I knew the tutor though as she also taught my older son through a different program a few years earlier. For us that one year was enough. It was pretty expensive but so was/is the university model school I sent her brother to that year. It seemed that tutor got paid per student.

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I don't know if they're paid as head-hunters. But I do know that a good percentage of the tuition fees goes "up the ladder" towards corporate. A small percentage to the main office I understand, but all the cuts along the way to middle people strikes me as MLM.

 

What really gets my goat, though is that the only "financial aid" offered is to sign up as a tutor/director/or whatever, but still pay full tuition upfront. I would have far more respect for them if they let needy families pay tuition minus the amount that doesn't even stay in the local community. But they'd rather pay a regional director who doesn't see the kids, while the mom has to decide between shoes and tuition.

 

Eh, CC never struck me as a company much concerned about poverty issues. But I do mind them using the sticker price to unofficially control membership. It's a rather Country Club mentality. No thanks.

 

 

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Unless it has changed in the past few years, yes, the tutors and directors do get paid per student.  They are paid a portion of each student's tuition.  I can't believe that their heavy recruitment has anything to do with $$$.  As much as I loathe the program and their ideals, I can't throw them that far under the bus.  But the fact does remain that each tutor is paid a portion of each student's tuition.

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I'm convinced it's the homeschool version of Amway.

Oh, my, I almost spit out my hot chocolate when I read that. They are all over my yahoo groups. Posting about the open enrollment, aanswering every question with how cc changed their children's lives over the very topic you asked about. I have learned to ignore them.

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I am a little concerned about the Homeschool NOW efforts as well. I contacted the person at the HSLDA in charge of packing up and sending the homeschool information meeting packets for those efforts. There is a card included for people to fill out and return for more information on home schooling. Anyone who checks a box signifying interest in Classical education or groups/co-ops will be forwarded onto CC, the "experts in those areas." [/font]They are expanding their marketing to people simply considering home schooling.

 

I share this information, so that people understand how they are trying to change the landscape of home schooling. They are very aware of numbers and market share.

 

 

This offends me greatly. I am with Martha in seeing these plans and actions as a threat to homeschooling.

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I don't know if they're paid as head-hunters. But I do know that a good percentage of the tuition fees goes "up the ladder" towards corporate. A small percentage to the main office I understand, but all the cuts along the way to middle people strikes me as MLM.

 

What really gets my goat, though is that the only "financial aid" offered is to sign up as a tutor/director/or whatever, but still pay full tuition upfront. I would have far more respect for them if they let needy families pay tuition minus the amount that doesn't even stay in the local community. But they'd rather pay a regional director who doesn't see the kids, while the mom has to decide between shoes and tuition.

 

Eh, CC never struck me as a company much concerned about poverty issues. But I do mind them using the sticker price to unofficially control membership. It's a rather Country Club mentality. No thanks.

Huh. I never really thought of it like that, but I think you are right. It's basicly a place rich people go to make sure their kids (and they) get to socialize with other rich people and be "leaders" - a country club mentality. I know many who use it or have used it and yes, they tend to be very.. elbow rubbing? kind of people. Which is not to say I think they are awful people per se. They are very nice people. I don't think they are even aware of being that way bc in their bubble that's just what people do. But yeah. Country Club mentality.

 

ETA: I don't care if they want to be in a private country club. Freedom of association and all that. I don't agree with it but whatever. I do strongly disagree with promoting it as though everyone can do it and that its the best or even a good deal financially when that's total blarney.

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What is Homeschool NOW?

 

I am wondering this too.  Just got a message on the local yahoo group about an informational meeting for new homeschoolers.  But it seemed to be backed by someone or something, not just a service to the local community.  Makes me uncomfortable to have new homeschoolers fed their most basic introductory info from someone with an agenda. 

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Robert Bortins is the president of this organization as well. 

 

OH.

 

So they're all shaking hands with each other behind the scenes, swapping the info and raising the money, while changing the face of homeschooling one newbie at a time. "Classical" defined as CC? Pandering to public school mentality that says to become a homeschooler is to join a club with oversight and out-of-the-home classes?

 

Blech!!!! I mean, this is not new, but it's another chapter of the story.

 

Thanks for finding this info for us! We need to know these things so that those of us who are (A) not entirely WASP, and (B) interested in preserving traditional homeschooling and traditional/classical pedagogy will know what to say to newbies whom we encounter.

 

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I'm not a fan girl for CC, having homeschooled three students all the way through under our own steam/hutzpah, but I am posting because I think some of the posters upthread need a financial reality check. 

 

Last year's total cost per high school student in CC was $1395 (give or take a few bucks, as the facilities fee may vary).  I don't know of any private school in my area except for public charter schools that are less than $7K for high school students, and that's for a very few dinky little, lower tier private schools.  And this is in an area in which private schools are relatively inexpensive.   Most mid-tier (quality) private schools run 6-7 thousand more than that per year.  The highest quality schools in the area run $20-30K for tuition.   The university model school closest to me charges $2,500 per class for homeschool kids that want to supplement their homeschooling education.

 

Several of you have mentioned other reasons for disliking CC, including the student recruitment, and I won't gripe with you on any of those.  To each their own. 

 

But as a CC tutor, for the one year I did it, I made about 3 bucks an hour. It turned out to be a labor of love for my students, and a fun 25-30 hour/week job while my own last senior finished his education, mostly without me. 

 

So that's why the tutors recruit, to build a nice class for their students (and build a local CC community) and to bring their labor up to a decent wage.  I'm of the opinion that smaller classes--4 to 6 students--are better than a class of 12 (the limit), since the class moves so fast; that way each student gets more time to present their work, but for the tutor, it's a losing proposition financially: they are giving away their time.

 

You all are right, I knew nothing about Latin or logic before I tutored that year.  But I knew how to study, and I knew how to teach. It didn't matter that I had not tutored those two subjects before--I knew them like the back of my hand before I taught them to the students, and even better, because I was working a couple of months ahead of them, I knew where they would run into "new student" difficulties.  My four kids won our Mock Trial competition, even though each of them had to double up on roles, and two of my kids took national Latin Exams, one got a silver and one got a gold. 

 

Further, I knew how to relate to and motivate students. I warned the parents of my students in my orientation that if they wanted the sweet teacher, I was not it.  (Ha!)  The students would need to put up with me--the saucy, sarcastic teacher--for a year, so they would appreciate my friend, the sweet Challenge 1 teacher.  The first day of class, one student walked in and said, "I've been waiting for a sarcastic teacher all my life!" and we both laughed. 

 

So, please understand where those families are coming from.  I'm not saying they are right, and I'm not saying the recruiting isn't obnoxious--I totally get that.   But the program is well thought out, the kids will get a great education, and contrary to the impression given in some of the posts above, the cost is not out of line with the market.  For those families whose worldview matches CC's, and all the other aspects align, it is a very helpful tool for them to do a classical education well.  Among the families that I had, there were two who would not have been homeschooling high school without CC, and they were happy to have the option.

 

 

 

 

 

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Last year's total cost per high school student in CC was $1395 (give or take a few bucks, as the facilities fee may vary).  I don't know of any private school in my area except for public charter schools that are less than $7K for high school students, and that's for a very few dinky little, lower tier private schools.  And this is in an area in which private schools are relatively inexpensive.   Most mid-tier (quality) private schools run 6-7 thousand more than that per year.  The highest quality schools in the area run $20-30K for tuition.   The university model school closest to me charges $2,500 per class for homeschool kids that want to supplement their homeschooling education.

 

 

But as a CC tutor, for the one year I did it, I made about 3 bucks an hour. It turned out to be a labor of love for my students, and a fun 30 hour/week job while my own last senior finished his education, mostly without me. 

 

 

I would never minimize your contribution, or that of anyone working with homeschooled students. I've tutored for peanuts, too, and know what it's like to want to see the students succeed even more than I want to earn a proper wage for helping them...just want to say that before I quibble with the quoted part....

 

As to the first para, only the UMS comparison approaches an apples-to-apples comparison. (Although that's still not quite right, because in a UMS the teachers do teach and grade the material; homework is supervised by parents at home but the primary education source is the school.) One day of non-professional tutoring per week that doesn't even include grading surely cannot be compared to full-time private school situation. Is that not true?

 

As to the second, you deserved to be properly paid for your work. Where does the money go, if not to the tutors? I apologize if the money breakdown has already been explained in this thread and I missed it.

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Last year's total cost per high school student in CC was $1395 (give or take a few bucks, as the facilities fee may vary).  I don't know of any private school in my area except for public charter schools that are less than $7K for high school students, and that's for a very few dinky little, lower tier private schools.  And this is in an area in which private schools are relatively inexpensive.   Most mid-tier (quality) private schools run 6-7 thousand more than that per year.  The highest quality schools in the area run $20-30K for tuition.   The university model school closest to me charges $2,500 per class for homeschool kids that want to supplement their homeschooling education.

 

But presumably a $7K private school is actually teaching (possibly even with qualified teachers) all 5 days a week.  CC is one day a week, (correct?), and with no actual marking/grading going on.  5 days * $1.4K = $7K, so pro-rata, CC charges the same, as the private school, but doesn't teach or grade.

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I would never minimize your contribution, or that of anyone working with homeschooled students. I've tutored for peanuts, too, and know what it's like to want to see the students succeed even more than I want to earn a proper wage for helping them...just want to say that before I quibble with the quoted part....

 

As to the first para, only the UMS comparison approaches an apples-to-apples comparison. (Although that's still not quite right, because in a UMS the teachers do teach and grade the material; homework is supervised by parents at home but the primary education source is the school.) One day of non-professional tutoring per week that doesn't even include grading surely cannot be compared to full-time private school situation. Is that not true?

 

As to the second, you deserved to be properly paid for your work. Where does the money go, if not to the tutors? I apologize if the money breakdown has already been explained in this thread and I missed it.

Yes to all of this.

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Tibbie, just very roughly, if I were to say that I paid $1500 per school day of quality instruction (the CC cost) and add another "school day equivalent" for the teacher's work grading, that would bring the "cost" of CC up to $9K per year, were it a full-time school.  

 

Yet upthread, people were stating that CC was outrageously priced.  Expensive for their budget maybe, but not out of line with market prices.  I'm showing that the cost of CC is on the low side for *my area.*  I can't speak to other geographical areas.  

 

Another way of comparing it would be to compare CC to two academically rigorous homeschool tutorials in my area, where the cost per class is $35-40/month @ 8.5 months per year = $300 - 345 per class, plus usually a supply fee.  Multiply that by six classes, or in the Challenge levels, by 7, and you've got a projected cost of between $2100 and $2800/year, which includes the grading. 

 

As to "professional" teachers: I don't think anyone one this board wants to start arguing that it requires a "professional" to teach a course well.  

 

 

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But as a CC tutor, for the one year I did it, I made about 3 bucks an hour. It turned out to be a labor of love for my students, and a fun 25-30 hour/week job while my own last senior finished his education, mostly without me. 

 

 

 

 

Can you elaborate on the 25-30 hours a week that you spent as a tutor?   CC didn't come to our area until our kids were too old for it, but the people I know who tutor don't spend anywhere near that kind of time on it, especially after the first year.  (Year one, yes, because they had to learn Latin or whatever they are teaching)

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But presumably a $7K private school is actually teaching (possibly even with qualified teachers) all 5 days a week.  CC is one day a week, (correct?), and with no actual marking/grading going on.  5 days * $1.4K = $7K, so pro-rata, CC charges the same, as the private school, but doesn't teach or grade.

 

The only schools that are doing that price are not ones that I would send my student to.  They technically are a private school, but leave all kinds of things to be desired. 

 

The schools that are thriving, decent schools are in the $12-14K range.  The good classical schools, not the "country club" schools (using the term used upthread) are at the upper end of that range, except for ONE that works very hard to keep costs low and pays its teachers peanuts.

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Tibbie, just very roughly, if I were to say that I paid $1500 per school day of quality instruction (the CC cost) and add another "school day equivalent" for the teacher's work grading, that would bring the "cost" of CC up to $9K per year, were it a full-time school.  

 

Yet upthread, people were stating that CC was outrageously priced.  Expensive for their budget maybe, but not out of line with market prices.  I'm showing that the cost of CC is on the low side for *my area.*  I can't speak to other geographical areas.  

 

Another way of comparing it would be to compare CC to two academically rigorous homeschool tutorials in my area, where the cost per class is $35-40/month @ 8.5 months per year = $300 - 345 per class, plus usually a supply fee.  Multiply that by six classes, or in the Challenge levels, by 7, and you've got a projected cost of between $2100 and $2800/year, which includes the grading. 

 

As to "professional" teachers: I don't think anyone one this board wants to start arguing that it requires a "professional" to teach a course well.  

 

Nobody has argued that. The argument is that non-professionals should not expect to be regarded the same as professionals when it comes time to set prices for services.

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Due to the laws governing these types of arrangements, there is no legal way to offset tuition costs for the teacher. You'd have to read up more on the Homeschoolcpa.com. 

 

The question then is: Can a person legally be reimbursed at $3/hour? And more: Can other structures compete if "professional tutors" (the ones who make a business out of it and work at various co-ops and/or programs) expect to make a fair market value for their services? If you are working 40 hours/week trying to teach yourself a subject because you don't know it, can you then be considered skillful? Who sets the tuition rate? Can you be considered a graduate of a tutor program that does not grade, etc?

 

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you got paid about 3$ an hour?  Did you get a tuition break in exchange for your labor? Because if not, you were being taken advantage of. I am sorry.

 

I am assuming the 3$/hr breakdown comes after you took all your work outside of class into account etc. That still isn't right.

 

 

Yes, I'm taking into account my time preparing and studying.  My last student was a senior and did not go to CC when it came to our area.

 

I would have made more money personally had I heavily recruited students the summer before I taught, but that was the summer of my being out of town, moving my parents, and emptying and selling their home of 30 years--some of you on the board will recall the griping/venting I did here.  :-)

 

Someone upthread asked where the money for tuition goes.  I won't give exact percentages, because that is proprietary info to CC, but the vast majority of the money does stay with the tutor. 

 

Had I continue to work part-time with CC a second year, having done all the work the prior year, I would have made much better money/hour since I had already invested the prep time.  Rules might have changed, but at that point, tutors were only allowed to tutor at two different CC communities, in case anyone wants to know.  They really want tutors to invest in and build relationships with their students, so they limit the total number of classes a single tutor can teach.

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Huh. I never really thought of it like that, but I think you are right. It's basicly a place rich people go to make sure their kids (and they) get to socialize with other rich people and be "leaders" - a country club mentality. I know many who use it or have used it and yes, they tend to be very.. elbow rubbing? kind of people. Which is not to say I think they are awful people per se. They are very nice people. I don't think they are even aware of being that way bc in their bubble that's just what people do. But yeah. Country Club mentality.

 

ETA: I don't care if they want to be in a private country club. Freedom of association and all that. I don't agree with it but whatever. I do strongly disagree with promoting it as though everyone can do it and that its the best or even a good deal financially when that's total blarney.

 

 

Besides the facts of their financials, yes that was my impression of the CC seminar I attended as well.

 

I get that they exist and have a niche. What makes me mad is when the assumption is made that "Oh, you want to school classically? Classical Conversations IS THE classical method."

 

No, CC is a conservative Reformed take on the neo-classical school of thought. There's lots of other less Calvinist/conservative/culture-war ways to have a classical education.  :rolleyes:

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Last year's total cost per high school student in CC was $1395 (give or take a few bucks, as the facilities fee may vary). 

To put this in perspective, I'd like to compare CC to some online providers that use credentialed teachers and grade the assignments. Landry Academy can run as low as $70/semester/course if you buy a year in advance in a group. Let's say you just buy during their holiday sales and pay about $150/semester/course. You could take math, science, Latin, chronological history and literature for only $100 more per year than CC. Each of those classes would include a 1.5 hour class and 1 hour of office hours which often amounts to private tutoring. The teacher would have experience teaching their subject and only their subject. For example, T's Latin teacher majored in Classics and has a teaching credential. She's taught Latin for years. She did not learn it 2 months ago. The same holds true for the math teacher she had last summer who also teaches community college classes. LA holds the same world view as CC, so it would appeal to many of the same customers. I think they'd get a much better education and a better deal from LA than from CC.

 

That's just one example. Most online providers do cost more than Landry, but they also offer some excellent classes that appeal to a wide variety of students. I expect to pay about $450/year for an online high school level class and in that price range there is a huge range of options. For classical education, I really don't think you can top the Well Trained Mind Academy.  For what you pay for a tutor who is learning or reviewing a couple months ahead of your child, you can get 3 classes from the WTM Academy. You can enroll your child in Lukeion and have them taught by someone with a PhD in Classics. You can enroll in Derek Owen's math and physical science classes. When you put it in this perspective, it's hard to imagine why anyone would opt for CC.

 

There are even a few free options that are well done and available to anyone with an internet connection. The Virtual Homeschool Group uses both Saxon and Apologia curricula and offers video instruction and automatic grading for FREE. Now that's a service to the homeschool community! Both Coursera and EdX as well as many universities (Yale and MIT, for example) offer many classes that would support classical education at home as well. You can do this for much less money even if you personally don't feel comfortable teaching all of the high school subjects.

 

CC isn't the only game in town and it's not serving the home school community well to imply that it is.

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Tibbie, just very roughly, if I were to say that I paid $1500 per school day of quality instruction (the CC cost) and add another "school day equivalent" for the teacher's work grading, that would bring the "cost" of CC up to $9K per year, were it a full-time school.

 

Yet upthread, people were stating that CC was outrageously priced. Expensive for their budget maybe, but not out of line with market prices. I'm showing that the cost of CC is on the low side for *my area.* I can't speak to other geographical areas.

 

Another way of comparing it would be to compare CC to two academically rigorous homeschool tutorials in my area, where the cost per class is $35-40/month @ 8.5 months per year = $300 - 345 per class, plus usually a supply fee. Multiply that by six classes, or in the Challenge levels, by 7, and you've got a projected cost of between $2100 and $2800/year, which includes the grading.

I still think they are outrageously priced. Comparing them to other outrageously priced coops doesn't change my opinion.

 

For the same money I could send my kid to a private school of equal value to cc.

 

As to "professional" teachers: I don't think anyone one this board wants to start arguing that it requires a "professional" to teach a course well.

Nonsense. There is no question someone doesn't have to have a degree or whatever to do something well. But the minute they say they want to charge professional wages for it? I have zero qualms demanding by what creditials they feel entitled to call themselves a whatever professional.

 

This is true for most things. Part of being able to charge is because people are paying for a developed to professional level skill. Most amateurs do not get paid, much less demand professional level wages. No one is saying doing something in an unprofessional capacity is wrong or illegal or should be either. They are saying being an unprofessional and yet comparing themselves to high end professional in private establishments is unreasonable pricing.

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Due to the laws governing these types of arrangements, there is no legal way to offset tuition costs for the teacher. You'd have to read up more on the Homeschoolcpa.com. 

 

The question then is: Can a person legally be reimbursed at $3/hour? And more: Can other structures compete if "professional tutors" (the ones who make a business out of it and work at various co-ops and/or programs) expect to make a fair market value for their services? If you are working 40 hours/week trying to teach yourself a subject because you don't know it, can you then be considered skillful?

 

I didn't say that CC paid me per hour.  I said that my paid compensation worked out to that amount.  Perhaps it was unwise of me to mention that upthread.  In the moment when I first posted, it seemed germane. 

 

But I've taught other classes in which I did know the material (and indeed four out of the six CC classes were classes in which I already had significant experience and expertise), and when one is planning to teach and direct a student's work for a week, the time to prepare is not insignificant--not if one is doing a creditable, professional job. 

 

"Legality" doesn't come into play.  CC did nothing wrong, did not skimp, did not take advantage of me.  I knowingly and willingly signed a contract knowing ahead of time what my per student pay would be.  It was just unfortunate for my pocketbook that I did not have more students.  By all other measures, it was a thoroughly enjoyable and, yes, profitable year. 

 

About the last sentence above:  I was not working 40 hours per week to teach myself a subject--not that the exact number of hours matters.  (I haven't done anything close to that number of hours to master any subject (or two) since I took Diff EQ in college. LOL!)  All kidding aside, yes, I know that one can teach oneself a subject, at least an introductory one, and then go on to be skillful in teaching it to students.  Otherwise, we call into question the basis by which we can even justify being homeschoolers and working with our own students to first teach and then guide them through their own education. 

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I

 

About the last sentence above:  I was not working 40 hours per week to teach myself a subject--not that the exact number of hours matters.  (I haven't done anything close to that number of hours to master any subject (or two) since I took Diff EQ in college. LOL!)  All kidding aside, yes, I know that one can teach oneself a subject, at least an introductory one, and then go on to be skillful in teaching it to students.  Otherwise, we call into question the basis by which we can even justify being homeschoolers and working with our own students to first teach and then guide them through their own education. 

 

You are on the edge of setting up a straw man here. Taking the responsibility for facilitating one's own child's education, as a person without training or degree in the subjects, is one thing. Declaring oneself to be a qualified teacher for a group of students (other people's kids) and charging the same fee a truly qualified person would charge to do it is quite another.

 

I can facilitate my high schooler's education because

A. He is of similar IQ and aptitude to myself, neither too far above nor below my own abilities.

B. I laid the groundwork and am familiar with his elementary education, both skills and content

C. We have a lifelong relationship. I know him very well and I know how to teach him, through experience not training, because he is my own son.

D. I don't actually teach him beyond my level -- I find coursework created by those who know their subject intimately and who have directed their instruction to the student, as many homeschool programs do, and I support him as he studies those materials. (For example, I am not my son's Pre-Calculus teacher. Greg Sabouri of Teaching Textbooks instructs him. My other children have learned from Derek Owens, Art Reed, etc.)

 

Obviously, homeschooling works. The 2015 college acceptance thread is proof; my son is listed with a hundred others. But the factors that make homeschooling work are not the same factors as those which make for a successful classroom of non-related students and teachers.

 

I can teach my own children, pre-K through 8th. I can teach some high school level subjects to my own children, but other subjects must be outsourced because I don't understand them well enough to teach them.

 

I can teach a few subjects to other people's children, pre-K through 8th. I am not qualified to teach other pre-K to 8th grade subjects to children who do not have my kids' capabilities and background knowledge.

 

If I were hired to teach Latin, and I knew nothing of Latin (as you say you did not), I would feel ethically bound to inform the parents that they have engaged a Latin teacher who does not know Latin. How is anything less than that level of transparency remotely acceptable? If they really want to pay thousands of dollars to persons who will be sitting up with the textbook trying to grasp the material in the days before the class, that is their business, but surely they have the right to know.

 

We all learned in the classic thread here, titled "Does anyone else think Classical Conversations is neither," that CC "tutors" are not considered to be "teachers." The word "tutor" simply means "one who models how a class might go" and the parents are supposed to understand that they have the full responsibility to teach at home. Halftime Hope, was that your experience and understanding?

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To put this in perspective, I'd like to compare CC to some online providers that use credentialed teachers and grade the assignments. Landry Academy can run as low as $70/semester/course if you buy a year in advance in a group. Let's say you just buy during their holiday sales and pay about $150/semester/course. You could take math, science, Latin, chronological history and literature for only $100 more per year than CC. Each of those classes would include a 1.5 hour class and 1 hour of office hours which often amounts to private tutoring. The teacher would have experience teaching their subject and only their subject. For example, T's Latin teacher majored in Classics and has a teaching credential. She's taught Latin for years. She did not learn it 2 months ago. The same holds true for the math teacher she had last summer who also teaches community college classes. LA holds the same world view as CC, so it would appeal to many of the same customers. I think they'd get a much better education and a better deal from LA than from CC.

 

That's just one example. Most online providers do cost more than Landry, but they also offer some excellent classes that appeal to a wide variety of students. I expect to pay about $450/year for an online high school level class and in that price range there is a huge range of options. For classical education, I really don't think you can top the Well Trained Mind Academy.  For what you pay for a tutor who is learning or reviewing a couple months ahead of your child, you can get 3 classes from the WTM Academy. You can enroll your child in Lukeion and have them taught by someone with a PhD in Classics. You can enroll in Derek Owen's math and physical science classes. When you put it in this perspective, it's hard to imagine why anyone would opt for CC.

 

There are even a few free options that are well done and available to anyone with an internet connection. The Virtual Homeschool Group uses both Saxon and Apologia curricula and offers video instruction and automatic grading for FREE. Now that's a service to the homeschool community! Both Coursera and EdX as well as many universities (Yale and MIT, for example) offer many classes that would support classical education at home as well. You can do this for much less money even if you personally don't feel comfortable teaching all of the high school subjects.

 

CC isn't the only game in town and it's not serving the home school community well to imply that it is.

 

You make good points, and I'll add to them.  For my child who was interested in the classes, Biola's Torrey Academy was fantastic.  The cost back then was ~$1000 for something that was 3.5 credits.  We've used Potter's School and Matt Turnbull's online tutorials for assorted things as well, although Matt's cost has gone up considerably. 

 

And while I felt perfectly comfortable teaching 8th and 9th graders what I did, and I had a smashingly successful year with them, taking their skills quite past what was required, I know other CC tutors who do have much greater experience and expertise than what I had, so please don't use my story as representative of the good or the bad regarding CC tutors.  I suspect I was quite in the middle of the pack.

 

One of the advantages that CC does have over the tutorials is presence.  For families who need or want to be "present in person" this does what tutorials cannot. 

 

Again, this thread has some very good points about CC not marketing itself as the only way to homeschool or to homeschool classically, but I wanted to speak up with some financial balance in the thread.

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So did you not know how much money you would be making before you signed an agreement? Since the % is supposedly considered proprietary?

 

I knew how much I would be making per student, and I knew the percentage, all before I signed a contract.  I did not know how many students I would have.  The circumstances of that are in another post.

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Boy howdy, you weren't kidding. It's more than $1200/yr for Challenge. That buys a lot of online classes, dvd courses, Teaching Company, etc. That's quite a chunk of change for one day a week, non-professional tutor who doesn't grade and may not really know much math or Latin or physics.

 

Exactly.  I will hand off money for professionals to teach if I think they can do a better job than me.  That means I expect someone teaching writing to be degreed in that area and to be probably be a working writer.  Someone teaching science should have a science degree and background.  Someone teaching java should be a computer scientist.  Good expert teachers can turn on a dime and teach the individual group of kids in front of them.  I can't imagine paying that much money paying for someone probably less qualified than myself to teach.

 

We go to a secular co-op that's not cheap, but it is expert taught for academic classes.  It's true that it's probably not a super diverse co-op.  However, there is certainly religious and socio-economic diversity there.  And we live in the middle of a major metro area, so we are surrounded by diversity.  It may be our least diverse day of the week.  I hand pick individual classes what I am willing to pay for there, but so far it's been a great experience.  It's not remotely formatted anything like CC which seems very lock step and school like.  And it's an older kid co-op (10+, mostly 12+).  The younger kid stuff we did was much more hit and miss and half the kids didn't want to be there anyway. 

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