Teachin'Mine Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 The College Board has a program to encourage high school guidance counselors to encourage all students to apply to four or more colleges so they can find one that meets their academic potential. They actually asked the guidance counselors to sign a pledge that they will do this with each of their students. https://jfe.qualtrics.com/form/SV_dgRdW2izxfqEknj?ep_mid=11046883&ep_rid=157101524 I can't even begin to imagine the ways in which this will benefit CB. $$$ In general, I think that applying to more than one or two is a good idea, but it's really a conflict of interest when this push is coming from an organization which could benefit tremendously financially. Common Application fees, test score reporting fees (SAT, SAT IIs, APs?), CSS Profile fees ... If they could legally offer a kick-back to the guidance counselors for each student application above four, I'm sure they'd be doing that too. At least for the SAT, students can get free test reports for up to four colleges, but beyond that they pay the fees. I know some students here only applied to one or two colleges and all worked out very well for them, but most do apply to more. Students trying for reaches often apply to many more than four because of the low percentages accepted, so I don't think they're targeting these students. Low SES students in schools with understaffed guidance departments likely apply to fewer schools. With fee waivers they can often apply to more schools for no or low cost, but the CB won't make more off of them unless they exceed the 8 school limit. Students trying for reaches and needing full need may also apply to many more than the usual because their chances of being admitted are even lower than for those who are able to pay a substantial amount. They may or may not have any true financial safeties, so they spend the extra for more applications knowing that it may prove beneficial in the end. So the CB does make some money off of these students, but I think it's the average students they are trying to get more from. The majority of high school students who attend college do so at their in state publics. Because these colleges tend to base admission more on stats, it's easier for a potential student to guess their likelihood for admission, and applying to only one or two is probably all they need. Has anyone with students in public or private high schools noticed additional encouragement/pressure for students to apply to more schools? I'm just curious as I think this was the first year for this initiative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I believe that the college board, the ACT, and other such organizations will do anything to make a buck, ethics are of no concern. Sigh... So, yah...it's really not a function of the college board to be sticking their nose into this, but not surprising either. The next thing they'll do is ask guidance counselors to make a pledge that they will funnel all of their students into at least one AP regardless of ability. They'd make a lot of money off that too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I'm the last one to defend the College Board because I've had to give them hundreds of dollars of my family's money as well. That said, students get four free score reports with the SAT so applying to four schools doesn't need to cost students any more. My personal experience as a counselor confirms what I the research finds which is that many students would benefit from a better planned application strategy often including adding a school or two. Again and again I have students come to me with a plan like this: apply to one state u (not necessarily the one that's the best academic or financial fit) and then a school like Stanford that is not at all a possibility given their academic record. Depending on their academic profile and financial circumstances this may be a huge missed opportunity. When you see a student go from having as their only options a school with poor quality instruction, lousy financial aid, and a low graduation rate - OR, a nurturing school with great financial aid and a high graduation rate, it becomes pretty clear why putting in a couple more applications can be absolutely life changing. Again this is a very individual situation based on a student's circumstances, but some students will end up with an absolutely HUGE difference between their best and worst financial aid offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny_Weatherwax Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Has anyone with students in public or private high schools noticed additional encouragement/pressure for students to apply to more schools? I'm just curious as I think this was the first year for this initiative. No extra encouragement here. No college counseling at all really. DS went in during the first term of his senior year for his Senior Meeting and was told to pick two schools that he liked and apply. There was no counseling his junior year. DS hasn't met with his counselor since his senior meeting meeting. As far as he knows, his counselor has no idea how many or to which schools he has applied. He also doesn't know if she is aware that he took the SAT subject tests or is a finalist in a couple of scholarship competitions. From what we can determine, college counseling at DS's school is reserved for the top athletes and students of district employees. ETA: Lest you think this has to do with ability ~ DS is in the top 5% of his class and has high stats. He has friends who are in the top 15-25% and they received little to no help either; just the standard Senior Meeting. Our school has 5 counselors for approximately 1100 students. Most students have one meeting a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 No extra encouragement here. No college counseling at all really. DS went in during the first term of his senior year for his Senior Meeting and was told to pick two schools that he liked and apply. There was no counseling his junior year. DS hasn't met with his counselor since his senior meeting meeting. As far as he knows, his counselor has no idea how many or to which schools he has applied. He also doesn't know if she is aware that he took the SAT subject tests or is a finalist in a couple of scholarship competitions. From what we can determine, college counseling at DS's school is reserved for the top athletes and students of district employees. ETA: Lest you think this has to do with ability ~ DS is in the top 5% of his class and has high stats. He has friends who are in the top 15-25% and they received little to no help either; just the standard Senior Meeting. Our school has 5 counselors for approximately 1100 students. Most students have one meeting a year. That's ridiculous! My sons attend a public high school with 1500+ students. It has 5 counselors and they have scheduled meetings twice a year and an open-door policy year-round. Their office hours are 8 am to 4pm. These hours make it possible to met with students afterschool hours. My sons have a great relationship with their assigned counselor. She reviewed my oldest sons college ap before we submitted it. The counseling staff hold evening presentations for the parents of rising juniors to go over PSAT/SAT prep opportunities and college/career planning. It is a crying shame that there are some lame counselors out there. Many parents don't have a clue how to navigate getting their child into college (mine didn't) and the missed opportunitits due to the unqualified/unmotivated staff is a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 I believe that the college board, the ACT, and other such organizations will do anything to make a buck, ethics are of no concern. Sigh... So, yah...it's really not a function of the college board to be sticking their nose into this, but not surprising either. The next thing they'll do is ask guidance counselors to make a pledge that they will funnel all of their students into at least one AP regardless of ability. They'd make a lot of money off that too! Many high schools which offer APs are already pulling as many students as they can into the class as the numbers make the school look good. The only way the CB makes money off of the "extra" students is if they also take the AP test. Some schools have all the students take the AP test and report the number who took the class and the test and are less upfront about the testing results, while others only encourage the ones who were appropriately placed to take the AP test and report their higher scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 True about APs. Schools are given awards based on participation rates without consideration of pass rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoggirl Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Ds's charter school required that students apply to three colleges. It has been a school rule for a long time, though I must confess, I really don't know the rationale for it. The school boasts 100% college placement (though there are usually one or two students each year who enlist in the military. Even those must apply to three colleges even though they do not plan to go. Otherwise, the school couldn't claim the 100% college placement rate), so perhaps it's for extra cushion to make sure everyone does get in somewhere. Our town is the home of the state flagship. I would say that approximately 50% wind up there, but I do wonder if the requirement is to prevent the "one and done" mindset. Other state schools have lower threshholds for merit money, so perhaps that is a reason as well??? Out of ds's class, 70% remained in-state, but that includes private colleges as well. Our counselor situation is excellent. She is conducting a meeting for parents of juniors one evening this week. She discusses the process with parents and encourages them to allow the students to own it. She also discusses financial aid forms, different types of loans, etc. She conducts another round of parents' meetings early in the fall of the students' senior year. She visits all the English classes (easiest one to work out of since EVERYONE has English) two times during junior year to talk to students. Students are expected to have a pretty solid working list of colleges by the end of their junior year. Students are required to take either the SAT or ACT once per year beginning freshman year. While this school is open enrollment, the standards and expectations are high. With only 70 or so seniors per year, the GC really has the time to work with them (even though she also does class scheduling and regular standardized testing among other things). If she has any faults, it's that she tends to push small LACs, and that she lacks a personal understanding that some students LIKE big college sports. She freely admits these biases, though. ;) The other area public schools are HUGE and sorely lacking in counselor resources. Ds has a classmate at college from a nearby HUGE public school who did not know there was such a thing as SAT Subject tests until her senior year and had to scramble to get them done in time. I don't think her counselor knew that some colleges required/recommended them or even what they were. I think, again, this is mostly because many students just go down the road to the state flagship. The few students at the large public high schools who are aiming high tend to hire private college counselors. It almost seems like the CB is putting pressure on counselors to do a better job - the assumption being four choices might offer a boader spectrum of options - but I don't see how that's any of their business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 I'm the last one to defend the College Board because I've had to give them hundreds of dollars of my family's money as well. That said, students get four free score reports with the SAT so applying to four schools doesn't need to cost students any more. My personal experience as a counselor confirms what I the research finds which is that many students would benefit from a better planned application strategy often including adding a school or two. Again and again I have students come to me with a plan like this: apply to one state u (not necessarily the one that's the best academic or financial fit) and then a school like Stanford that is not at all a possibility given their academic record. Depending on their academic profile and financial circumstances this may be a huge missed opportunity. When you see a student go from having as their only options a school with poor quality instruction, lousy financial aid, and a low graduation rate - OR, a nurturing school with great financial aid and a high graduation rate, it becomes pretty clear why putting in a couple more applications can be absolutely life changing. Again this is a very individual situation based on a student's circumstances, but some students will end up with an absolutely HUGE difference between their best and worst financial aid offer. I agree with you that many students could benefit from better preparation of their college applications lists, but as ScoutermominIL pointed out, many high schools just do not have the counselors needed for this level of counseling. Those who can afford private counseling no doubt benefit from the help. Often the students who would benefit the most don't have the resources for that and likely many don't know about all the resources available online even. As homeschoolers, we have to take on the role of counselor and that has it's pros and cons. Personally I think it was the hardest part of homeschooling. Hindsight is soooo much clearer. Dd applied to many schools as we didn't have the benefit of Naviance to have projected outcomes and there was no financial safety as she needed lots of aid. (Because of the need for high aid, even Naviance might not have been so helpful or accurate.) So CB was no doubt happy to get all of our extra dollars. No matter how much we read of students' experiences of top private schools costing less than the local in-state publics, we still hear so much about parents of students who need financial aid not allowing them to apply to the private colleges. Some high school students really do know that they want to attend in-state and have done the research to make sure it's a good fit for them, but there are many others who just never explored other options. For students who want to be challenged academically, I also wonder when they're accepted to all on their list. Some are truly brilliant and accomplished enough to be accepted to all their reaches, but for most it seems that they might have benefited from reaching higher. I know that it's a matter of fit and many students would rather be somewhere where where they are closer to the top of the class rather than just one of the many other bright students, so this isn't even a goal for many. And most students are needing to take finances into account as well. Talk about jumbled ramblings. lol But all that to say that I do think that many students can benefit from applying to more and a variety of schools - safety, match, reach - but it just seems like a money driven interest when it comes from the CB. Maybe they could "put their money where their mouth is" and raise the number of fee waivered applications, tests and score reports, and CSS Profiles and even reduce their fees overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Whenever I read these threads I am amazed at the wonderful job my son's school does. In an otherwise really dismal school system, he has gotten an excellent college prep education there. He has one guidance counselor who does everything. If I understand correctly, there are 4 counselors, one for each year, in a school of about 1600 students. Yesterday she was cloistered in her office, personally (with a secretary's help) scanning and emailing mid year reports to hundreds of places for all of the students. Everyone at the school goes to college too so all 400 of them are hers. We are so fortunate. She is an absolute saint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Talk about jumbled ramblings. lol But all that to say that I do think that many students can benefit from applying to more and a variety of schools - safety, match, reach - but it just seems like a money driven interest when it comes from the CB. Maybe they could "put their money where their mouth is" and raise the number of fee waivered applications, tests and score reports, and CSS Profiles and even reduce their fees overall. Yes, for sure. All good ideas. If the College Board is going to be "non-profit" I'd like to see more accountability about fees. There is very big money in the testing industry including a lot of government money as several states have contracts for all students to test through ACT or College Board. Sadly at this point in time we are in a situation where the testing agencies (ACT and College Board) are one of the only providers of information to school counselors. It is sort of like the system where pharmaceutical companies are educating doctors about medications. Not ideal by a long shot. One thing I am concerned about is that sometimes there is some negative characterization of students who apply to more than a couple of schools. It may be suggested they are trying to game the system or they are too invested in admissions. I'd just like to see that attitude shift a little with more awareness that not everybody has the same situation and for some students a couple more applications may be one of the smartest financial decisions they will make in their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Yesterday she was cloistered in her office, personally (with a secretary's help) scanning and emailing mid year reports to hundreds of places for all of the students. Everyone at the school goes to college too so all 400 of them are hers. We are so fortunate. She is an absolute saint. Fantastic! I hope the parents acknowledge her hard work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Great analogy with the pharmaceutical companies! Yes, the comments about "gaming the system" are often made in response to students who apply to a lot of schools. I agree that in some cases it's a very wise decision. I think that many who send out a lot of applications also haven't had the ability to visit all their colleges of interest, which can be financially impossible, and this allows them to put more money towards applications and then just visit the ones of interest once the acceptances are in. Makes for a hectic spring, but for some it's the best option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Great analogy with the pharmaceutical companies! Yes, the comments about "gaming the system" are often made in response to students who apply to a lot of schools. I agree that in some cases it's a very wise decision. I think that many who send out a lot of applications also haven't had the ability to visit all their colleges of interest, which can be financially impossible, and this allows them to put more money towards applications and then just visit the ones of interest once the acceptances are in. Makes for a hectic spring, but for some it's the best option. Gaming the system? It's not cheating or taking advantage of someone to apply widely and compare where they are actually accepted and what is really offered. No more than it is gaming the system to look at a lot of cars and houses before buying. (And we will spend more on education than we spent on our house.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I believe that the college board, the ACT, and other such organizations will do anything to make a buck, ethics are of no concern. Sigh... So, yah...it's really not a function of the college board to be sticking their nose into this, but not surprising either. The next thing they'll do is ask guidance counselors to make a pledge that they will funnel all of their students into at least one AP regardless of ability. They'd make a lot of money off that too! I am not so sure that they don't already do that. On the AP teacher portion of the college board, there seemed to be considerable unhappiness with administrations and counselors that are pushing students who were not ready for AP classes to take them anyway. Some even talked of class sizes doubling. They also talk of kids who do the MC part of the test and take naps during the essay portions. I can't imagine the pain in the backside to keep an advanced class on track, but still teach kids who can't write essays how to do the basics. On the kids' side, it's the age-old nightmare of being dropped into a class you are not ready for and don't want to be in that has a high stakes outcome with a high-level test. I am not much of a conspiracy theorist - except when it comes to the College Board. :D I've been encouraged at our local high school in the last few years. They've done a turn around in closing the gap between regular and advanced classes. When my dd was a junior, she experienced a significant drop in the quality of the English classes. If you didn't take AP English, you got a bonehead choices that were really low level and a disservice to the students. Now, there aren't choices for your English class. If you are not in AP, you take English 11 or 12 and you read several classic novels, plays, etc. and do a lot more writing. They've done a good job with class design and I hope they see a payout for putting thought into it. There is not a tremendous pressure for AP courses inside the school; more of it comes from the outside. ETA: Should have kept reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoggirl Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Whether rightly or wrongly, I do think cost is a big factor in why some kids only look to the State Us. That and just plain old risk aversion. For the most part, kids coming out of ds's high school are going to get into our state flagship (though I do know of one boy who did not), but we aren't talking about a school that's real high up the food chain here. It's not Michigan or Florida or schools of similar ilk. Because it's local, no one questions going there - it's a logical choice for many. In fact, the GC encourages ALL students to apply there. The merit money is rather stingy and not as cut and dry as it is as some other schools (such as Alabama), however. But parents, in particular, feel like they know exactly what they are getting themselves into by sending Jr. to the local Big State U. Trying for anything else is unknown territory and, thus, "risky," both in terms of admission and cost. I have heard the GC encourage to students to apply to privates that are MUCH more costly saying, "You never know what might happen with merit and aid." I think it takes a particularly mature kind of 18-year-old to take that risk. This happened to one of ds's classmates last year. She fell in love with Tulsa. She did get some merit money there, but not enough and her parents did not qualify for need-based aid. Gapped as many on here can relate to. She kept trying to get her ACT score up (another stressor) to qualify for more, but it just didn't happen. She wound up at an out-of-state regional U (her mother's alma mater) for less than our state flagship (so there's a lesson in applying to MORE right there), and is doing great there. But, honestly? Their family could have saved themselves a lot of angst and tension had she skipped applying to Tulsa altogether. She was a good student, but not a tippy top student, and I don't think the "you never know what might happen," was a good line for her. It was pretty clear she wasn't going to get enough $ from them. For folks in certain economic situations, though, it can very well work out that a private will be cheaper than the in-state public. BUT - you have got to have a top, top student AND one who knows they will qualify for financial aid. Otherwise, there will likely be a significant gap between a private college cost and paying even full-freight at the State U. Our state U has a COA of around $22,000. As an example, ds got into some private schools with approximately $20,000 in merit money. That brought the COA on those down to $32,000 - $42,000 per year. That's a significant difference over four years. Qualify for some in-state merit scholarships (if they exist) at the Big State U and the difference becomes even more significant. So, for PARENTS, I think there is a risk in letting your kid explore too much. No one faults anyone for just going down the road. It's safe. It's almost expected. In fact, there can be lots of "Isn't State U good enough for you?" kind of questions when you start looking farther afield. Some parents just say - "You're going here," and that's the end of it. If that's what they want to do, I don't think GCs should be placed in the middle of that kind of situation urging kids to apply to more schools just for the sake of having some random number of applications. Teachin' - I am right there rambling with ya'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny_Weatherwax Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Naviance?? Why haven't I heard of Naviance before this thread? ((Off to search)) ETA: Oh my heavens....Why am I just now learning of this? This would have been a wonderful resource for my children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny_Weatherwax Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Nothing different here. This is a school-to-work high school now, so students mostly hear about the CC from guidance. I have pulled a few friends of my boys aside and pointed out that the CC cost is the same as regional state U, both about equal commute, but totally different caliber of student and choice of majors. The science teachers are pretty good if the student thinks to ask for recommendations. After a nonminority student was discouraged from applying to Princeton, but was accepted and attended, pretty much everyone does their own research. The school does not use Naviance or anything like that. They also dont make public the selection criteria on scholarships given to juniors, like the RPI Medal. High school to local CC is big in our town at the moment. The CC's enrollment has been down approx. 5% every year and the new president is doing everything she can to increase enrollment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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