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Granny_Weatherwax
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 If tuition was that high for a PR degree, maybe some of the questions should be on the college. 

 

I find it interesting that if you go to Monmouth College's Communication Studies department page, they have a section "alumni", where they list "Recent Monmouth Communications Grads", and their employers.  Only three are listed:  two from class of 2008, one from class of 2001.

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I'm half-way through rereading The Big Short by Michael Lewis.  It is a sobering reminder that many in the financial industries have their own goals.  Those goals might in some circumstances overlap with the goals of consumers, but in many cases, they don't really.

 

Students need to realize that there will be all kinds of people who will sidled up to them, offering them what looks like a great deal.   But they may be no more working in the student's interest than the three card monte dealer in Times Square or the guy peddling knock off Rolex watches or the car dealer offering a clunker car at exorbitant loan rates.  I would say that many of the loan offers as well as a good number of the college degree programs themselves are not necessarily in the student's best interests.  

 

I think that one side effect of the push to get every student who wants to go to college into college is that the means of placing them there may actually work to the long term detriment of the student.  The OP article seems to be a case in point.  

 

I just had to add Lewis's book to my Amazon cart. Thanks! Have you read any of his other works?

 

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I just had to add Lewis's book to my Amazon cart. Thanks! Have you read any of his other works?

 

 

I've read the book about the financial crisis in Europe.  It covers Greece, Ireland and Iceland.  http://www.amazon.com/Boomerang-Travels-New-Third-World-ebook/dp/B005CRQ2OE/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1422405626&sr=8-6&keywords=michael+lewis

 

Basically the essence of his books seems to be that there were hundreds if not thousands of people who deluded themselves about their ability to be smarter about finances than everyone else.  Sort of if whole national economies were comprised of people like the woman in the original story.  (Reminds me of the recent election returns in Greece, actually.)

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I have become hardened to the plights of people who make decisions like those in the article.  Spend any time on CC and you read 90% of the posts looking down at perfectly acceptable schools and stating that they have worked hard and "deserve" dream school experiences.  They are too good for anything but the best.  Fine and dandy.  Embrace the dream which comes with nightmare debt.  You deserve the debt, too.  There are plenty of wiser kids who recognize the nightmare and choose the practical path.  

 

Call me cynical.  

 

Kinda the same here.  I do my best at school to help kids (and parents) find affordable options for them based upon their finances.  There are oodles of articles every single year that are essentially the same as the one in the OP.  There are plenty of options in the guidance office (including financial aid public meetings) and/or on the internet for anyone who even remotely tries to research.

 

So...if one still sticks to 100K in debt or bust... well...

 

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When did the "dream school" need become a thing?

 

In ancient times (1982) when I was applying to colleges I remember flipping through the pages of a JHU application. Meanwhile, my father was down the hall going through the financials. He knocked on my door late that night and said he couldn't help me so it wasn't worth it. So, I just dumped the thick pile of papers in the trash and was done with that idea. I applied to three state schools and went to what I think was the best one. 

 

Even though loans would have been very small, my dad felt it wasn't worth it. It was easy back then to get through a state school in my state paying cash with minimum wage work. So, he felt that was the most sound thing to do. I don't think I was hurt in anyway by that guidance. 

 

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I don't think student loans are a bad idea for everyone.  I also don't think they are a good idea for everyone.  I think that if a person is ready to go to college, she's ready to think about her future, financially and otherwise.  Mistakes are going to be made, but hopefully lessons are learned before one goes too far down a wrong path.

 

Playing the blame game on behalf of young people only delays the inevitable.  They won't learn until they are accountable.

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So some believe this young woman has no accountability for the money SHE borrowed and spent?  OK then.

 

 

I think everyone is saying that she is accountable for the money she borrowed.

 

But that's just the cost side of the equation -- you can't make a judgement on this without balancing the cost against the value.  $150k to become a surgeon is surely reasonable.   Without knowing anything about this student, I'm not willing to blame her for not predicting the correct economic value of her degree (currently: $0).

 

Who is accountable for the universal narrative that a college degree is the only key to a good job?  Monmouth college advertises that 99% of their graduates are either employed or in graduate school after graduation. Money magazine rates it #14 in the country on the "most affordable private colleges" list. (!), and #15 on the "degree adds the most value" list.

 

I would love to know the statistics for employment rate of their communication studies graduates.

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I think everyone is saying that she is accountable for the money she borrowed.

 

But that's just the cost side of the equation -- you can't make a judgement on this without balancing the cost against the value.  $150k to become a surgeon is surely reasonable.   Without knowing anything about this student, I'm not willing to blame her for not predicting the correct economic value of her degree (currently: $0).

 

Who is accountable for the universal narrative that a college degree is the only key to a good job?  Monmouth college advertises that 99% of their graduates are either employed or in graduate school after graduation. Money magazine rates it #14 in the country on the "most affordable private colleges" list. (!), and #15 on the "degree adds the most value" list.

 

I would love to know the statistics for employment rate of their communication studies graduates.

 

If it is one of the most affordable private colleges, then what else did she spend her money on, I wonder.

 

If it is a "most value added" college, and she was a good student, then maybe she will get a decent job once she moves to a place where here talents can be used.  I don't know why she was talking about a $9 job, maybe she was just saying the pay differential in general is the reason she is moving.  I hope she lives frugally and looks into all possibilities for restructuring her loans so she can service them.  I have been in that situation and while it is scary, it is not hopeless.

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I take a college's graduate employment rate with a grain of salt.  Those numbers don't mean anything.  MC states that 99% of their graduates are employed or in grad school.  Well, working at BWW is employed so she would have been included in that statistic. How many college graduates - whether from MC or every other school in the country - are underemployed or working but not using the degree?  I know graduates from the local state uni who are working at Staples and Walmart.  I don't think cashiering after earning their BAs was what they had in mind but they are employed and happy to be so.

 

Some random thoughts -

 

I don't know this young woman or her story but I do know something about the college.  MC offers fairly decent merit aid.  The majority of students from our county who attend MC earn a scholarship that pays 50% of tuition.  It is obvious this girl did not earn that scholarship.  That is an indication she wasn't a strong student to begin with.  Her hometown is less than a 30 min drive to the MC campus.  She could have lived at home and commuted, saving over $40k.  Rumor around town is that she wanted the whole campus/dorm/sorority experience and chose to pay for it.  Her loans exceed the full cost of 4 years worth of tuition & room and board.  What was the extra money for?

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On the one hand, I do think this girl and her parents made some stupid choices.

 

On the other, there are times when going into a lot of debt for an education makes sense--generally when one has a rational plan for how to pay it back. For example, upon completion of law school I will have approximately $300K in debt. It is all in subsidized or PLUS loans, and I will consolidate them and place the lot on income-based repayment, which will not eat more than 15% of my adjusted gross income. I plan on going into the public sector, and after ten years of full time employment I will be eligible for loan forgiveness. Should I instead choose to go into the private sector, after 25 years there is another loan forgiveness program which I will be eligible for. So, I will at the worst case be free of student debt by the time I reach retirement age.

 

i think the problem, really, is that private loans are given the protection from bankruptcy but the borrowers haven't got the protection/rules that government subsidized loans are given. In short, banks that make these loans are getting their cake and eating it too, and a lot of people don't grasp what a raw deal it is going in. I think these types of loans should be banned (along with for-profit schools, but that's another rant; most traditional private universities are nonprofits) or held to the same lending standards as other signature loans (vulnerable to bankruptcy, only available for those who have good credit and evidence of income that they can pay it back, etc.).

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I think everyone is saying that she is accountable for the money she borrowed.

 

But that's just the cost side of the equation -- you can't make a judgement on this without balancing the cost against the value.  $150k to become a surgeon is surely reasonable.   Without knowing anything about this student, I'm not willing to blame her for not predicting the correct economic value of her degree (currently: $0).

 

Who is accountable for the universal narrative that a college degree is the only key to a good job?  Monmouth college advertises that 99% of their graduates are either employed or in graduate school after graduation. Money magazine rates it #14 in the country on the "most affordable private colleges" list. (!), and #15 on the "degree adds the most value" list.

 

I would love to know the statistics for employment rate of their communication studies graduates.

 

Yes. The Obama administration has tried to crack down on false/misleading advertising, such as employment rate. 99% includes part-time babysitting for your brother.

 

There is the question of whether she is accountable for loans which is 100% YES. She is.

 

Then there is the question of whether she was a victim of a predatory higher education lending scheme that is lending for the purpose of selling off debts. They never intended to collect from her, see. They planned to sell her debt (her life) to collections agencies.

 

And they were willing to lie to do it. (They know that nobody who would look at that price tag would think, "99% cannot be mostly wage labor, right?" They do mislead students.)

 

Slowly this is getting worked out with new reporting requirements but private schools are frequently exempt.

 

Again, this is not to exonerate the young woman. But she was caught in a trap that preyed on naivety of the working class and hope, and she's not the only one.

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When did the "dream school" need become a thing?

 

In ancient times (1982) when I was applying to colleges I remember flipping through the pages of a JHU application. Meanwhile, my father was down the hall going through the financials. He knocked on my door late that night and said he couldn't help me so it wasn't worth it. So, I just dumped the thick pile of papers in the trash and was done with that idea. I applied to three state schools and went to what I think was the best one. 

 

Even though loans would have been very small, my dad felt it wasn't worth it. It was easy back then to get through a state school in my state paying cash with minimum wage work. So, he felt that was the most sound thing to do. I don't think I was hurt in anyway by that guidance. 

 

I was applying at about the same time.  It was pretty cool that we were going to college. I looked briefly at some schools out of state, but it really wasn't feasible. At the state school I attended, it was always easy to find work and I think that's one of the big differences from now.

 

Then, the dream was college. Now, the dream is College "A."

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Yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon.  When I was a teen with working class parents, I applied to the closest state university, period.  The end.  30 years later, my niece had her heart set on an expensive private school (too far away to commute).  They promised her a half scholarship.  She would have to come up with the rest, which is still a lot of money.  They had no savings.  Niece had never had a job.  Parents had been bankrupt, so no credit.  They asked me to co-sign for a private loan (or make a loan out of my savings).

 

I am a generous soul, but since I couldn't promise that to all my nieces/nephews and still have anything left for my own kids, I said no.  (Instead, I gave a cash gift equal to the entire cost of my undergrad degree.)  Well, my brother was really upset.  He didn't think it was OK for his daughter to have to go to the crappy university that I went to.  He didn't want to have to disappoint her.  You would think I'd done his family a terrible injury.  Because of me, my niece will probably never realize her dreams.  :rolleyes:

 

My niece entered the university I had attended.  Now she's in her 4th full-time year and nowhere near graduation.  I sure am glad I don't have a financial stake in her education.

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When did the "dream school" need become a thing?

 

In ancient times (1982) when I was applying to colleges I remember flipping through the pages of a JHU application. Meanwhile, my father was down the hall going through the financials. He knocked on my door late that night and said he couldn't help me so it wasn't worth it. So, I just dumped the thick pile of papers in the trash and was done with that idea. I applied to three state schools and went to what I think was the best one. 

 

Even though loans would have been very small, my dad felt it wasn't worth it. It was easy back then to get through a state school in my state paying cash with minimum wage work. So, he felt that was the most sound thing to do. I don't think I was hurt in anyway by that guidance. 

I flipped through the same application the same year you did.  I didn't request it -- they sent it for free because I was a Maryland Distinguished Scholar.  I applied on a whim, got in, and ended up getting enough financial aid that it cost less than it cost my siblings to go to local state schools.

 

This doesn't really apply to the case in the OP, but don't be afraid to have your kids apply to "dream schools." A lot of them have huge endowments and give great financial aid.

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I flipped through the same application the same year you did. I didn't request it -- they sent it for free because I was a Maryland Distinguished Scholar. I applied on a whim, got in, and ended up getting enough financial aid that it cost less than it cost my siblings to go to local state schools.

 

This doesn't really apply to the case in the OP, but don't be afraid to have your kids apply to "dream schools." A lot of them have huge endowments and give great financial aid.

That was not available to me. I wasn't a Maryland resident. Dh went there. He was a Maryland resident. JHU used to offer Maryland residents special scholarships. That was why he went. I believe today, they do not give as much in the way of scholarships to Maryland residents, but have focused on just Baltimore residents and programs for specific schools in Baltimore.

 

I think it might better to not have a dream school. "Dream" connotes too much emotion for this decision. It might be good to have a group of schools in which your student is a good fit. Then rank them financially as the final numbers come in. Otherwise, you might be playing games with feelings of resentment and entitlement, fairness, anger, etc. It is just so much easier to be unemotional.

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I agree...no dream school, just a nice list of places that are a good enough fit that the student will flourish at any of them.

 

While we love Alma, the reality is that if the numbers do not come in at a certain threshold, ds will attend U of MI, and he's completely fine with that. He feels like he would be home at either place which is good!

 

The focus on the dream school is faulty. Forgetting just the financial numbers for a second, the reality of the college admission's game makes it vital that no student put all their hopes in one place. The cautionary tale we've recently heard highlights this.

 

One of dh's colleagues has a daughter who attended an accelerated magnet school in the burbs north of Detroit. This is the kind of school where everyone is driven, everyone is motivated, and the last two years of high school are entirely AP. Most of the kids have 11-12 AP's and high GPA's. She had a 31 on the ACT and a GPA of 3.76. In comparison, her ACT was 3 points higher than ds's junior year, but her GPA, .84 below his. He had two AP's, she had 12. They both applied to U of MI, and he got in with merit aid, she was rejected. What happened? It's anyone's guess. Here are some of my thoughts:

 

Ds had unique letters of reference to send in along with his application. She used one of her teachers. But, of the approximately 75 graduates of the school, about 60 also applied to U of MI and all chose from amongst the same three teachers she did for her letter of reference. So, U of MI was saturated with applications from just one high school, a very small one at that so a huge percentage of their graduating class, and given the fact that these teachers had 20 or possibly more letters to write depending on how it was divided up, may have sent very cookie cutter like responses. Another ding is that several years ago U of MI was chewed up in a couple of articles for appearing to favor just a few zip codes, taking so many students from those particular areas, that it almost appeared as though other students from outlying regions had almost no shot at getting into the school no matter how promising the student was or how stellar their application. There was a lot of talk about "classism" and diversity, and I think the admission's department got singed a little. Since then they appear to be taking kids from a wider range of areas and walks of life. Before that the code on the street was that if you didn't hail from West Bloomfield Hills, Rochester Hills, Grosse Pointe, Brighton/Ann Arbor, or Traverse City/Petoskey/Charlevoix, you needed to apply to MSU, the school for "farm kids" and "lesser zip codes". Now, I'm not saying that was what was happening at all. Really. I have not seen the admission's statistics, nor the applications that came in during those years, and there was no thorough investigation of the matter, just accusations from a small number of students, but again, that is the appearance and it seems to have gotten better in that regard. For what it's worth, we are not in a highly regarded zip code and dd was admitted to U of MI with merit aid back in 2009. So, I am not certain how much of the flap was true. But the girl hails from a zip code that has an extraordinary number of U of MI applicants not just from her school but others as well so if diversity is the name of the game, then I can see how she might not make the cut for U of MI in terms of how many applicants from that area they are willing to accept.

 

Who knows? Another thing that occurred to me was that of her 12 AP's, she received 3's on six of them. 4's on the others. The interesting thing is that the 3's were all in mathematics and science courses, and she declared a biology major/pre-med. Could that have been a negative? She was very academics focused and had no extracurricular activities listed, hobbies yes, organized activities no. Maybe she did not appear to be well rounded? We found all of this out from the dad because he wanted to know why C might have appeared to be a better bet than his daughter. Poor guy. So upset.

 

The worst thing is that she had her heart set on U of MI and thought with her stats she was a shoo in so did not apply anywhere else. She found out she was rejected in mid-December, and with college admission's departments closing down for the holidays, did not have time to get applications processed before the first of the year. As a result, she has missed almost all of the primo merit deadlines for other good schools. She has applied to MSU, and NMU to see if she can get accepted there...I think NMU will definitely take her. But, both of their big scholarship competitions have passed so she's going to be full freight unless she can come up with a lot of private scholarships that are renewable. There have been a lot of tears.

 

It's tough on her dad. He had no idea how quirky college admissions are at more selective schools, and was apparently unaware that many of the best scholarships are gone by the Christmas break. He was mortified when talking to dh to find out that we, a homeschooling family, knew so much more about the process than they did with their child in a highly regarded magnet school. He said that at the seminar for parents of seniors that was hosted right after Labor Day, they were told nothing about this, and basically assured that their graduates were so much better off than any of the other PS or private schools, these kids would not be rejected unless possibly they applied to the Ivies. The guidance counselor is apparently quite clueless in this regard.

 

So, while I will never know why my kid got in with merit (though I suspect that ultimately it may have had a lot to do with this Team America Rocketry Challenge accomplishments because U of MI has had numerous teams in the college version of the competition that NASA offers thus they may have been impressed by this particular aspect of his high school career, or with the fact that he had unique letters of reference. It also highlights how easily he could have also been rejected.

 

When you have a chance to talk to rising seniors, emphasize that they should NEVER have their heart set on only one college, and should embrace a sense of adventure about the application process choosing to be happy wherever they land. They should not consider it "settling" and take that attitude with them to campus.

 

If students are willing to be open to a wider range of options, it may lessen the chance that they'll impulsively sign for too many loans in order to attend "the dream", or be so vulnerable to messages such as, "Of course our education is so much better, you'll make scads of money and should take out this enormous debt in order to attend our superior school."

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Yeah, even I have had misgivings about the law school I chose.  I did get a half scholarship which made the cost look the same as the public university's cost.  But then, the tuition went up and the scholarship went down.  And I got no aid for the extra year I took to add on an MBA.  Since I stayed local, there was some prestige and I assume that helped in the job market.  Ultimately it's 50/50 whether I should have just gone to public for grad school.  Well, the fact is that there's risk and chance involved in higher education.  I knew this going in.

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I agree...no dream school, just a nice list of places that are a good enough fit that the student will flourish at any of them.

 

While we love Alma, the reality is that if the numbers do not come in at a certain threshold, ds will attend U of MI, and he's completely fine with that. He feels like he would be home at either place which is good!

 

The focus on the dream school is faulty. Forgetting just the financial numbers for a second, the reality of the college admission's game makes it vital that no student put all their hopes in one place. The cautionary tale we've recently heard highlights this.

 

One of dh's colleagues has a daughter who attended an accelerated magnet school in the burbs north of Detroit. This is the kind of school where everyone is driven, everyone is motivated, and the last two years of high school are entirely AP. Most of the kids have 11-12 AP's and high GPA's. She had a 31 on the ACT and a GPA of 3.76. In comparison, her ACT was 3 points higher than ds's junior year, but her GPA, .84 below his. He had two AP's, she had 12. They both applied to U of MI, and he got in with merit aid, she was rejected. What happened? It's anyone's guess. Here are some of my thoughts:

 

Ds had unique letters of reference to send in along with his application. She used one of her teachers. But, of the approximately 75 graduates of the school, about 60 also applied to U of MI and all chose from amongst the same three teachers she did for her letter of reference. So, U of MI was saturated with applications from just one high school, a very small one at that so a huge percentage of their graduating class, and given the fact that these teachers had 20 or possibly more letters to write depending on how it was divided up, may have sent very cookie cutter like responses. Another ding is that several years ago U of MI was chewed up in a couple of articles for appearing to favor just a few zip codes, taking so many students from those particular areas, that it almost appeared as though other students from outlying regions had almost no shot at getting into the school no matter how promising the student was or how stellar their application. There was a lot of talk about "classism" and diversity, and I think the admission's department got singed a little. Since then they appear to be taking kids from a wider range of areas and walks of life. Before that the code on the street was that if you didn't hail from West Bloomfield Hills, Rochester Hills, Grosse Pointe, Brighton/Ann Arbor, or Traverse City/Petoskey/Charlevoix, you needed to apply to MSU, the school for "farm kids" and "lesser zip codes". Now, I'm not saying that was what was happening at all. Really. I have not seen the admission's statistics, nor the applications that came in during those years, and there was no thorough investigation of the matter, just accusations from a small number of students, but again, that is the appearance and it seems to have gotten better in that regard. For what it's worth, we are not in a highly regarded zip code and dd was admitted to U of MI with merit aid back in 2009. So, I am not certain how much of the flap was true. But the girl hails from a zip code that has an extraordinary number of U of MI applicants not just from her school but others as well so if diversity is the name of the game, then I can see how she might not make the cut for U of MI in terms of how many applicants from that area they are willing to accept.

 

Who knows? Another thing that occurred to me was that of her 12 AP's, she received 3's on six of them. 4's on the others. The interesting thing is that the 3's were all in mathematics and science courses, and she declared a biology major/pre-med. Could that have been a negative? She was very academics focused and had no extracurricular activities listed, hobbies yes, organized activities no. Maybe she did not appear to be well rounded? We found all of this out from the dad because he wanted to know why C might have appeared to be a better bet than his daughter. Poor guy. So upset.

 

The worst thing is that she had her heart set on U of MI and thought with her stats she was a shoo in so did not apply anywhere else. She found out she was rejected in mid-December, and with college admission's departments closing down for the holidays, did not have time to get applications processed before the first of the year. As a result, she has missed almost all of the primo merit deadlines for other good schools. She has applied to MSU, and NMU to see if she can get accepted there...I think NMU will definitely take her. But, both of their big scholarship competitions have passed so she's going to be full freight unless she can come up with a lot of private scholarships that are renewable. There have been a lot of tears.

 

It's tough on her dad. He had no idea how quirky college admissions are at more selective schools, and was apparently unaware that many of the best scholarships are gone by the Christmas break. He was mortified when talking to dh to find out that we, a homeschooling family, knew so much more about the process than they did with their child in a highly regarded magnet school. He said that at the seminar for parents of seniors that was hosted right after Labor Day, they were told nothing about this, and basically assured that their graduates were so much better off than any of the other PS or private schools, these kids would not be rejected unless possibly they applied to the Ivies. The guidance counselor is apparently quite clueless in this regard.

 

So, while I will never know why my kid got in with merit (though I suspect that ultimately it may have had a lot to do with this Team America Rocketry Challenge accomplishments because U of MI has had numerous teams in the college version of the competition that NASA offers thus they may have been impressed by this particular aspect of his high school career, or with the fact that he had unique letters of reference. It also highlights how easily he could have also been rejected.

 

When you have a chance to talk to rising seniors, emphasize that they should NEVER have their heart set on only one college, and should embrace a sense of adventure about the application process choosing to be happy wherever they land. They should not consider it "settling" and take that attitude with them to campus.

 

If students are willing to be open to a wider range of options, it may lessen the chance that they'll impulsively sign for too many loans in order to attend "the dream", or be so vulnerable to messages such as, "Of course our education is so much better, you'll make scads of money and should take out this enormous debt in order to attend our superior school."

A lot of good stuff above. I think parents and students need to be more cynical and more trust-but-verify. Sure a student might more than meet the requirements at one school. But then so do dozens, hundreds and may e thousands of other kids. It doesn't take much research to find scores of articles and essays about well qualified kids not getting their first choice or even their first several choices.

 

On the topic of dream or reach schools, I've been preaching the mantra in 8 First Choices that you pick several schools to apply to that offer what you need. Make sure there is an assortment of schools that have a variety of selectivity levels. Don't rank them as reach and safety, because you will tend to dwell on and fantasize about the reach school and learn little about the safety.

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I saw her interviewed recently and it sounded as if the "dream school" part of the equation was mostly social and living away from her parents and less about a degree and her education.  That was a really expensive 4-year summer camp!

 

Honestly this is what my first year of college was all about.  I went to a small private school in Texas (I'm a born and raised Jersey girl).  But I did have a decent scholarship for that first year.  My "summer camp" adventure only lasted 3 semesters before I came home to work and put myself through the rest of college at mostly state schools.  It only took me 15 years to do it.

 

We had a little bit of an unusual situation with my oldest because of the divorce agreement.  She knew where she could go would depend on scholarships and if her father was willing to pay for college without a fight (he wasn't but we knew he would be required to pay half the cost of a state university).  She applied to the local state university (where she goes and they do have good programs for what she's studying), DeSales (out of state/private), TCNJ (state school but far), NYU (out of state but technically commutable), Drew (local but private), and James Madison (private and far).  She was accepted into all of them except NYU (wait listed), and was offered some merit aid but not enough to equal going to a state school that is commutable if necessary.  It would be a long crappy commute on one of the most dangerous highways in the state, if not the country, but theoretically possible. 

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