If retail employees are wearing religious messages

[gardenmom5]

the only place I've been with employees wearing loud statement "t's" is a bookstore chain known for its extreme casualness in employee wardrobes.  lip piercings (I wish they'd ban that one  - the tongue piercing was the worst to look at while being helped.  I coudln't help but wince.), prominent tats, etc.  I don't even notice anymore what the shirts say of those who wear message shirts.  (I've noticed the employees seem to be getting older - and not as "out there" in their dress.)

 

a very small shop - with no other indicators of the owner's positions, (and no obvious uniform policy) would make me wonder if the owner even cared.  some business owenrs - especially newer ones, don't always think things through to establish a dress code.

[Jayne J]

It is possible that the owner doesn't even know that the employee wore the t. When I worked at a small family-owned business during college, I opened the store myself, worked until the afternoon people came in, and generally never saw the owners during that shift. They only showed up during the evenings. So I would assume, unless there was more evidence, that the employee had a bee in her personal bonnet, and nothing more.

[TranquilMind]

I suspect it's more noticeable for members of a group traditionally marginalized because of the values promoted by that personal faith.

 

 

Why can't you just assume it reflects the wearer's personal views and leave it at that?  You know, tolerance, live and let live, and all that?

[*Lulu*]

If it was a larger chain business, and no one else was dressed similarly, I would think it was one employee and not representative of the owner/s and their views.

 

If it were a small business I would assume it was a message connected to the business.

 

This is colored by the fact that I cannot think of a single local business that does not have uniforms for employees.

 

Local mom and pop bar- everyone on the payroll is family and they all wear shirts that are in keeping with the business theme.

Local tire shop- uniform shirts with names embroidered on them.

Local car wash- tees printed with business logo.

 

Wait. We have a family run Chinese place that the teenage family members work register after school and wear tees with the school logos on them. Other than that and this one tow and repair shop, (which I don't think totally counts because the desk worker wears whatever, but everyone else has a uniform), I cannot think of any place in town where employees just wear whatever.

[BrookValley.]

Argh! Is it must me, or is the multi-quote function not working? Please excuse what may be a few separate posts.

 

 

Was this a one-time thing or something you have noticed on multiple visits to the store?

I don't think you can make assumptions based on what one person was wearing on one day.

 

This is a frequent thing.

[BrookValley.]

I wouldn't at all mind if someone is expressing "this is my religion." But I think OP means that the message was more: "I know what's best and you don't." Am I right?

 

Yes. This is not wearing a yarmulke, cross pendant, or hijab. It is a very distinct message.

[MiMi 4under3]

Unless it was a uniform, why would I think somebody's personal clothing choice represented their employer's viewpoint??

[BrookValley.]

Who cares what the employee is wearing, that references his own personal faith?  I don't.  I would most certainly assume this is his own preference. 

Now if it says, "I must destroy all middle-aged women " or something and the store has a huge sign to that effect as well, all bets are off.   

Something like "FROG" supposedly meaning "Fully Rely on God", I would probably never even notice, frankly. 

 

I don't, and I don't think most people do. But I will clarify that it is not a symbol of a particular faith, like a cross or a hijab, it is a distinct and divisive message, in words, on a shirt.

 

The FROG thing I brought up as an example of a real-life, Christian-based business that sells a product not related in any way to religion. I felt it an apt comparison, because the store I am discussing also sells a product not related in any way to religion, and I was trying to clarify what I was asking and explain that the business/product itself was not religious. The shirts at the frozen yogurt joint spell out "fully rely on God; the message is clear. It's not just an obtuse acronym. Like I said, you know when you go in that's part of their mission, even though they are not selling a religious product, by the word on the shirts.

 

Edited because it's late and I'm not being coherent. Obtuse, not obtrusive! lol

[Paige]

If one person was wearing a religious symbol or t-shirt or whatever, I wouldn't think twice about it. If everyone who worked there wore something that represented the same religion, I would think it was probably a religious company- but I wouldn't care no matter what the religion was as long as they were polite and helpful and sold what I wanted at the right price.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You asked what we would assume.  Unless everyone in the store were wearing similar shirts with similar messages, I would not assume it was the specific message of the store.  But I would assume that it was allowed by the store either because they think the employee can exercise free speech by wearing it or because they agree with it but I wouldn't know which one of these was true unless I asked. 

 

You didn't ask what we would do.  Probably nothing if the service and product was good.  Go elsewhere if it bothered me that much.  Not a boycott but simply exercising my choice to go to a store I like better.  But I sort of doubt it would bother me that much unless it had swear words or p*rn on it and even then I'd just go elsewhere because I would consider that unprofessional.  

[albeto.]

Why can't you just assume it reflects the wearer's personal views and leave it at that?  You know, tolerance, live and let live, and all that?

 

 I wouldn't assume a strongly messaged t-shirt only reflects the wearer's personal views because employees represent their place of employment. It's part of a traditional code of conduct that I grew up with - you reflect the image you wish to promote as a business or service.

 

But when you reference "tolerance, live and let live, and all that," history shows these things don't happen until there's significant push back against the traditional oppressors. Knowing that people I care about are being ostracized, and blamed for imaginary crimes makes me feel bad. Knowing that people I love are treated differently formally and informally because of unreasonable, irrational, hateful ideas makes me feel bad. They're not allowed to live and let live because tolerance is assumed to exist within a certain parameter that excludes things about, and important to them. To me. I sympathize with them because they're being unjustly treated. Live and let live only so long as you don't exceed your comfort zone? That's not nice, even if the person promoting these ideals think they are a nice person in general. So when someone advertises that message, I notice. If an employee of a retail store regularly conveys that message, I would assume that's part of the image the employer wishes to promote.

[BrookValley.]

Just for additional clarification, it's not really about the specific message. I'm being vague about that for privacy purposes but also because I really feel it is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the message is inflammatory and has offended customers (yes, it is religious, but you could also sub political or other potentially controversial subject for religious). It is not a personal symbol in the form of jewelry, head covering, body art, etc. It is a message, clearly spelled out in words, on clothing. In that light, I am wondering how it reflects back on the business/owner: might one assume this message is fully shared by the ownership or, at the least, tacitly approved by permitting the message to be broadcast.

[1bassoon]

 

 

Like the frozen yogurt shop Sweet Frog, if you're familiar. Obviously frozen yogurt doesn't have anything to do with religion, but the "FROG" stands for "fully rely on God," and they display/sell/wear t-shirts to that affect. You know it's a Christian business when you walk in there.

 

Wait. . . . that's what Sweet Frog means? I mean, I knew that F.R.O.G. has been used for fully rely on God, but  - I never figured that out. And I'm Christian. Probably a denser-than-average one, but there ya go.

[Slartibartfast]

If someone was wearing an inflammatory shirt then IMO it would not be appropriate to wear it at work. I would assume that the owner approved of the message and it could potentially impact my decision to shop there.

 

There is a difference between wearing a shirt that says,  "Yay! I like that Jesus, he is cool and stuff," and wearing a shirt that says, "Everyone who doesn't like Jesus is going to burn in hell and I am glad. You must believe in seven day creation or you are also going to burn in hell and I will be glad."

 

Without knowing the message it can be hard to say but if it is rude then the employee should not wear it.

[SKL]

I would think it reflected the employee. If it was offensive, I might raise my eyebrows and wonder if the owner okayed the shirt. I worked retail for several years and we always had a dress code, even in the small shops. So, my second reaction would be that the owner is okay with this stance and if it was someplace I wanted to frequent, I'd probably check into their background a little more (yeah, it's nosy probably) but if I want to be regular someplace, I'd like to know. 

 

Why would it matter to me if the owner was OK with it or even agreed with it?  I don't choose where I shop based on the religious (or political) beliefs of the owners.

 

I wouldn't be OK with a message that was outright insulting, but just an opinion that one's religion is the best, who cares?  It's no secret that many people feel that way.  It is not difficult to ignore such messages.  

[LucyStoner]

If it was at a type of business where it is common for employees to wear uniforms, company shirts or adhere to a very strict dress code like a grocery store, fast food place, ice cream shop, most restaurants, book shops etc then I would assume the message was speaking for the owners/management. If the message was offensive rather than just informational, it would impact if I went there again. In a business where I am not expecting a uniform, say a barbershop, tattoo parlor, non-profit office or insurance agency, I would assume that it was the employee's shirt and wouldn't let that affect my opinion of the employer beyond wondering why they don't have a more professional dress code.

 

Jewelry is something I assume is personal to the employee in any situation and is way different than what the OP is describing as explicitly religious words on a shirt.

 

Generally most workplaces don't allow shirts with words or slogans unless it is a company slogan, logo or motto.

 

My favorite chicken place is kinda like the fro yo place the OP mentioned- all the employees wear religious shirts and there are religious messages on the uniform hats, the owners car and the billboard etc. I don't have a problem with that at all (sorry if that opinion bursts anyone's little bubble opinion of me, lol). I know the owner's beliefs and don't care that I don't share them. But he does make the best chicken. There's very little they could print on their shirts that would keep me away from their chicken, lol. He doesn't discriminate in his hiring that I know of so I'm good.

[LucyStoner]

No, I wouldn't and I would like to know whatever happened to freedom of religion. If they were wearing a Satanist shirt, I'm guessing no one would have a problem with it.

What?

 

You are assuming that the message in the OP wasn't satanist for one, and for two I'd stake my life on a lot of people not appreciating a satanist message on a store clerk's shirt. I, for one, don't really want to be discussing satanism with my kids who would invariably read it and be like "WHAT THE HECK?!" And trying to explain that it may or may not be a joke with my son with autism. Seriously, just give me the Advil now.

[Slartibartfast]

No, I wouldn't and I would like to know whatever happened to freedom of religion.  If they were wearing a Satanist shirt, I'm guessing no one would have a problem with it. 

 

If an employee is wearing an inflammatory, religious shirt then the employer has the right to tell them it is not permitted. Nearly every company in the world has standards for acceptable attire and those companies may set whatever rules they like.

 

Freedom of religion does not apply to a rude tshirt at a job. 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

If I were running a business, I would allow religious jewelry or whatever else, but...I would not allow shirts with messages. Everyone would wear matching shirts.

Well said. That's what I consider standard for service industry and retail based employees.

[Farrar]

If I ran a retail business, everyone would be in striped pantaloons and purple puffy shirts with matching feathered caps.

 

Just kidding. But I'd probably not allow blatant ads, political messages or religious messages on the clothes.

[BrookValley.]

Why would it matter to me if the owner was OK with it or even agreed with it? I don't choose where I shop based on the religious (or political) beliefs of the owners.

 

I wouldn't be OK with a message that was outright insulting, but just an opinion that one's religion is the best, who cares? It's no secret that many people feel that way. It is not difficult to ignore such messages.

You can assume that, for about 25% of the population--likely more--the message is insulting. It is not a simple statement of belief which, I agree, is not a huge deal and on one person and without other indicators (messages posted around the store, pictures/symbols, religious music, etc) could be safely assumed to only reflect the beliefs of the wearer.

[BrookValley.]

If I ran a retail business, everyone would be in striped pantaloons and purple puffy shirts with matching feathered caps.

 

Just kidding. But I'd probably not allow blatant ads, political messages or religious messages on the clothes.

My rear end in striped pantaloons would be very bad for business. Remind me not to apply.

[Jean in Newcastle]

So what are you going to do?  Complain to the business owner?  (They could agree with you or disagree.)  Go somewhere else?  I'm assuming it's a private business and they are free to hire who they will and to set dress codes (or not)  as they choose.  

[BrookValley.]

So what are you going to do? Complain to the business owner? (They could agree with you or disagree.) Go somewhere else? I'm assuming it's a private business and they are free to hire who they will and to set dress codes (or not) as they choose.

I'll be writing the new dress code. ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'll be writing the new dress code. ;)

Aha!  All places I worked at (including a bunch that were not retail) had a dress code that simply banned any shirts with words or symbols other than the company logo.  That kept people from being offended by religious shirts, profane shirts, stupid shirts, political shirts. . .   And it kept employees from having  to guess if their particular shirt was offensive to anyone or arguing that they were being unfairly targeted when someone else's shirt was allowed.  

[Catwoman]

You can assume that, for about 25% of the population--likely more--the message is insulting. It is not a simple statement of belief which, I agree, is not a huge deal and on one person and without other indicators (messages posted around the store, pictures/symbols, religious music, etc) could be safely assumed to only reflect the beliefs of the wearer.

If you believe that is the case, you would be doing the owner a favor by calling him or her and mentioning it. And I do say the owner specifically and not the store manager (unless it's the same person,) because the owner may have no idea that one of the employees is potentially driving away business by wearing that t-shirt.

 

If it were me, I wouldn't bother, but that's probably because I don't get particularly upset about that sort of thing, but you seem to feel pretty strongly about it, and if you find out that the owner shares the employee's beliefs, you may decide not to continue shopping there.

 

Without knowing what the shirt said, it's hard to say exactly how I would feel about it, though. But my main concern would be whether or not the employee was pleasant and professional to deal with when I was in the store. If she seemed nice, I wouldn't want to potentially get her into trouble simply because I disagreed with the sentiment on her t-shirt.

[chiguirre]

What is relevant is that the message is inflammatory and has offended customers (yes, it is religious, but you could also sub political or other potentially controversial subject for religious).

If it offended me, I'd turn around and walk out and never go back. There are a few places in my town I would never patronize(car repair place and tropical fish shop-okay, so I'd never buy tropical fish anyway, but still) because of the political messages they've put up on their signs. I do live in a place where people tend to assume political and religious conformity and I don't conform, but these are the only 2 places I would avoid even if it was inconvenient or more expensive to go somewhere else.

 

ETA: Signs are more obviously controlled by the owner, but an employee represents the business and I doubt many employees would wear potentially offensive shirts unless they thought the owner would be okay with offending people.

[elegantlion]

Why would it matter to me if the owner was OK with it or even agreed with it?  I don't choose where I shop based on the religious (or political) beliefs of the owners.

 

I wouldn't be OK with a message that was outright insulting, but just an opinion that one's religion is the best, who cares?  It's no secret that many people feel that way.  It is not difficult to ignore such messages.  

 

My assumption would be this is a small probably locally owned store because most other places have set dress codes. It would depend upon whether *I* personally found the message offensive. I'm not that easy to offend anymore, but there are a few instances where it would affect my desire to shop there. I don't filter everyplace I shop based upon the beliefs of the owners, but I don't have a lot of money to spread around, so I'm not in a huge number of places anyway. 

[BrookValley.]

If you believe that is the case, you would be doing the owner a favor by calling him or her and mentioning it. And I do say the owner specifically and not the store manager (unless it's the same person,) because the owner may have no idea that one of the employees is potentially driving away business by wearing that t-shirt.

 

If it were me, I wouldn't bother, but that's probably because I don't get particularly upset about that sort of thing, but you seem to feel pretty strongly about it, and if you find out that the owner shares the employee's beliefs, you may decide not to continue shopping there.

 

Without knowing what the shirt said, it's hard to say exactly how I would feel about it, though. But my main concern would be whether or not the employee was pleasant and professional to deal with when I was in the store. If she seemed nice, I wouldn't want to potentially get her into trouble simply because I disagreed with the sentiment on her t-shirt.

If I were an offended customer, I, like you, probably wouldn't complain. But I might quietly take my business elsewhere, because I think the message reflects on the business as a whole. Even though the message may be assumed to be simply the belief of the wearer, I would also assume the owner condoned it by allowing it.

[Farrar]

If it was a place I wanted to keep going and I thought maybe they simply had not thought it through, I might send an email. Hi, I was recently in your business and an employee was wearing a shirt that I found very in your face and a little offensive. The gist of it was this. I don't know what your policy is about such messages on clothing, but I thought I'd bring it to your attention in case that doesn't reflect the message you wish your business to convey to customers. If that is the message you wish to convey, then I will be taking my business elsewhere. Thanks, customer.

[Laurie4b]

...do you assume this is a direct representation of the business as a whole?

 

If you go into a small, independent retail store to shop, and the employee helping you is wearing something with a very strongly worded, overtly religious message (apologies for the vagueness; privacy is an issue. Let's just say the shirt explicitly states there is only one way, and it obviously references one specific belief system), would you assume that the store itself (i.e., ownership, general mission) is based on that religion? Not necessarily in what specifically is being sold, but that part of its mission was to promote the faith? The type of store is not religious in nature, i.e., it's not a Christian bookstore or Halal market or anything like that. Like the frozen yogurt shop Sweet Frog, if you're familiar. Obviously frozen yogurt doesn't have anything to do with religion, but the "FROG" stands for "fully rely on God," and they display/sell/wear t-shirts to that affect. You know it's a Christian business when you walk in there.

 

Or would you assume the message belonged solely to the person wearing it? Or something else?

 

I'm asking to gain some additional perspective. Yes, this is just one part of a much larger...topic...however, this is not a trick question. The rest just isn't really necessary to discuss this one bit and I'm not going into the rest for privacy reasons. I'm curious what your first impression is, not positive or negative but of the nature of the business mission/etc., if you walked into a store and the employee who helped you was wearing a strong religious message.

 

I would assume that it is personal attire, not that the business is that religion---unless every employee was wearing the same or similar message. I think public expression of religion or other things on clothing is fine. Doesn't bother me.

 

[albeto.]

I would assume that it is personal attire, not that the business is that religion---unless every employee was wearing the same or similar message. I think public expression of religion or other things on clothing is fine. Doesn't bother me.

 

 

If that public expression on the clothing came in the form of a t-shirt depicting one of Charlie Hebdo's more... "expressive" cartoons with say, Jesus sodomizing God the father, and in turn getting sodomized by the holy ghost, that wouldn't bother you?

 

I know, extreme example, but now I'm curious.

[SKL]

If that public expression on the clothing came in the form of a t-shirt depicting one of Charlie Hebdo's more... "expressive" cartoons with say, Jesus sodomizing God the father, and in turn getting sodomized by the holy ghost, that wouldn't bother you?

 

I know, extreme example, but now I'm curious.

 

I have never seen, nor ever hope to see, a T-shirt depicting sodomy.  Or any other sex act for that matter.

 

It is not uncommon to see a T-shirt or bumper sticker that suggests maybe Christianity isn't the be-all and end-all, and that is not a problem.

[albeto.]

I have never seen, nor ever hope to see, a T-shirt depicting sodomy.  Or any other sex act for that matter.

 

It is not uncommon to see a T-shirt or bumper sticker that suggests maybe Christianity isn't the be-all and end-all, and that is not a problem.

 

Sure, I understand that. But it doesn't answer my question.

[candicane]

It wouldn't phase me one bit as most of the time I don't even notice what the worker is wearing. As long as it doesn't violate the rules the store sets, it shouldn't be a problem in any way. But, if I did notice it, I would think it reflected the employee only and not the business. But again, it wouldn't be noticed most of the time by me anyways.

[Guest]

I've seen offensive shirts on people out and about, and I just keep on with my business... it doesn't really affect me in any way. For the most part, I don't really pay attention to shirts. If it was just one shirt and the rest of the business was neutral, I would probably just ignore it. Honestly, I would have to know how offensive/inappropriate it is. If it was 100% disgusting or something, and my kids saw, I'd complain but most things that are just kinda offensive are easy to ignore.

[SKL]

Well without knowing what the actual T-shirt in the OP said, I don't know what would be a comparable example worthy of discussion.  Sure, there is a line beyond which anyone would be offended, regardless of the religion.

 

My point is, in this country we're over the fact that not everyone agrees on religion.  It is not a big deal, except maybe in some locations.  I do not care about the religious affiliation of the bagger at the grocery store etc.  I also don't care what he thinks of my religious beliefs.  He has no power over me.  Now if it is someone who has power over my life in some significant way, that might be a different story.

[Guest]

I like to know if a store has particular religious affiliations, so I can decide whether or not I want my money to go there.

Really? I'm the opposite. I'm not concerned with a store owners religious affiliation. I guess if it was like plastered all over the store, I might think about it, but for the most part, it just never crosses my mind. I was born and raised in California.... lots of religious diversity, so you can't avoid it, anyway.

 

I guess if they were supporting terrible things, I'd have an issue... but I don't see how I would ever know, for the most part.

[Catwoman]

I like to know if a store has particular religious affiliations, so I can decide whether or not I want my money to go there.

I have never thought about it at all. I have never walked out of a store for that reason, because I have never seen any blatantly obvious messages posted in a store, or on an employee's uniform, or whatever.

 

If I went into a store and they had a bunch of posters with political, religious, or social messages that I found offensive, I would walk out without buying anything, though. I just haven't experienced anything like that, and if no one is shoving their agenda in my face, I don't care what religion they might happen to be. It is a complete non-issue for me.

[Catwoman]

Most of the time you won't know unless you research if. But if someone is wearing an obnoxious t-shirt - maybe that says something like 'relationships are for an apple and a banana, not two bananas!' and if I found out they were wearing it at work with the owner's approval, I'd just rather not spend money there. No biggie. Just go to a different store.

I'm way to lazy to research who owns the stores I visit, but if I saw a store owner wearing a shirt like you described, I wouldn't shop there, either.

[IsabelC]

I would assume that the attitude displayed on the T-shirt is held by the store and its staff as a whole, because I don't think it's generally considered appropriate to have any kind of strongly worded messages on clothing at work otherwise. For example, I have a T-shirt that reads "Birth: every home should have one" and I wouldn't dream of wearing it in any work or formal situation, unless I were working as a home birth midwife or doula.

[SKL]

Most of the time you won't know unless you research if. But if someone is wearing an obnoxious t-shirt - maybe that says something like 'relationships are for an apple and a banana, not two bananas!' and if I found out they were wearing it at work with the owner's approval, I'd just rather not spend money there. No biggie. Just go to a different store.

 

But I don't view that as a religious statement.  It doesn't prove anything about the person's religion, nor does a person's religious affiliation prove anything about his attitude toward gay people.

[Catwoman]

But I don't view that as a religious statement. It doesn't prove anything about the person's religion, nor does a person's religious affiliation prove anything about his attitude toward gay people.

I thought Sadie was just giving a general example of a t-shirt she would find offensive. I think we could substitute a strong religious or political slogan as well, and the intent would be the same.

[SKL]

I thought Sadie was just giving a general example of a t-shirt she would find offensive. I think we could substitute a strong religious or political slogan as well, and the intent would be the same.

 

I'm having a hard time imagining such an offensive religious T-shirt.  I've never seen one.  I've seen some closed-minded ones, but not any that are outright insulting.  I mean, people didn't like the ones with Jesus smoking a joint, but they got over themselves, because who cares what other miscellaneous people think and say?

 

But yeah, if I saw a store employee wearing an insulting T-shirt, religious or otherwise, I would wonder why the store management was allowing that.  I would assume a lack of discipline, not agreement with the insult.  But I don't think I've ever seen such a thing IRL.

[albeto.]

.

[Catwoman]

I'm having a hard time imagining such an offensive religious T-shirt. I've never seen one. I've seen some closed-minded ones, but not any that are outright insulting. I mean, people didn't like the ones with Jesus smoking a joint, but they got over themselves, because who cares what other miscellaneous people think and say?

 

But yeah, if I saw a store employee wearing an insulting T-shirt, religious or otherwise, I would wonder why the store management was allowing that. I would assume a lack of discipline, not agreement with the insult. But I don't think I've ever seen such a thing IRL.

I haven't seen one, either.

 

I know BrookValley doesn't want to be specific, but I must admit to being very curious about what that shirt must have said on it!!!

[SarahB82]

I can't imagine a shirt this offensive and specific that sharing the message would create a privacy concern. I really want to know what it says!

[BrookValley.]

It's not really about the shirt, or even religion. It's about broadcasting personal and potentially controversial messages while in the clock in a private business that serves a diverse customer base. It's a privacy issue because it is important I respect all persons involved, not because of the message itself.

 

More...clarifying? (Maybe I'm convoluting it more. I don't know):

 

Message is not heinous or horribly offensive. Message is divisive--I would suggest the tone is unwelcoming to *some.* like I said, divisive. It can, and has, provoked customer comment. With that, remember that this is a business and this is an employee, not someone you saw walking down the street, and this business serves a diverse clientele politically, religiously, racially, socio-economically, etc.

 

But again, not asking if a religiously divisive shirt would drive you away from the business, but how a potentially unwelcoming message might reflect back on the business/owner/management as a whole (thus, yes, potentially creating an atmosphere unwelcoming to a certain number of your customer base).

[KungFuPanda]

I would just assume the person dressed herself. I wouldn't think she owned the store or was trying to send a company-supported 'message.' It's normal to see jewelry with religious symbols. Some people wear it all the time at work and home.

[Janie Grace]

Yes, representative of the owner or company. If it was small (cross necklace, etc) then I'd think it was personal expression but a big "JESUS IS THE WAY" t-shirt, I'd think "Christian business."