What would it take for you to hold a child back?

[Ann.without.an.e]

Struggling with ds :(   He has average to above average intellectual ability and zero desire.  He has a chronic illness that has made school difficult and when he is sick, his focus is awful.  He has missed a good bit of school days.  He is 8th grade.  This year we have had to scale back to...

Pre-algebra (again)

Writing with skill 1 (young for him, but he struggles with writing)

7th grade history text

High School Biology (Science is his strength)

Some literature (he reads a ton so I haven't stressed about making lit a subject for him since he struggles with written assignments)

 

So honestly, would you hold this child back and call him 8th again next year?  Maybe not in social situations but for school subject and transcript purposes?

 

 

ETA:  My oldest dd is advanced so am I just comparing the two and I feel like he is horribly behind because of that?  ugh

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If things don't get any better, what is your plan?

 

In other words, what if the illness contributes to academic lassitude for several years to come? At what point will you have to call it good and let him graduate, grow up, move on?

 

I ask because if the bare minimum is doable in three or four more not-so-awesome years there is no reason to hold him back now. The discouragement will not lessen as the years go by, if nothing changes with his health or attitude, so move up the end date and let him get on with adult life at 18. There will be options (military, trades, community college, jobs) wherein he can bridge some gaps as a young adult if he so chooses.

 

If, on the other hand, this has all been a temporary situation and you totally expect him to rally, health-wise, and truly embrace school, then it makes sense to delay the start of high school for another semester or year.

 

I say this as a mother of homeschooled teen boys who have needed their expectations and graduation dates adjusted because of real life.

[Jilly]

You could plan for both. Keep good records starting next year in case you want to call it ninth. When he is older is when I would make that decision. If at sixteen or seventeen you both feel that he needs an extra year then give it to him. If by then you feel he is where he should be then you will be in a good spot if you have his next year documented.

 

Also WWS in eighth grade is not behind. Many people use it for high school for their struggling writers. My son used it in ninth. :)

 

 

[wapiti]

My two (inexperienced) cents:  wait and see.  I would probably soldier forward as if he is starting 9th in the fall, keeping records accordingly, and then make the final decision later, at the last possible moment (for PSAT in 11th?).  By then you should have more information about the status of his medical situation, motivation to perform, and what sorts of schools he is interested in.

 

If he is 2e (or performs as such due to the medical issues) and might later become interested in the most competitive programs, then holding back could be useful for math track purposes as well as for squeezing in various APs on the back end, but if such programs aren't on the table, or conversely, if he gets/stays well and becomes sufficiently motivated to work through summers, there may be no need to hold back.

 

[regentrude]

I would not "hold him back". I would teach my child according to his level and graduate him from high school when I think he is ready.

I would keep good records and decide in retrospect if what he did in the coming year is high school level and warrants to be called 9th grade, or whether it should better be designated 8th grade. In fact, you can postpone declaring grade level for another few years (unless your state requires you to) - the point of no return is declaring Junior for the PSAT. Other than that, I'd just keep working and all doors open.

[Ann.without.an.e]

If things don't get any better, what is your plan?

 

In other words, what if the illness contributes to academic lassitude for several years to come? At what point will you have to call it good and let him graduate, grow up, move on?

 

I ask because if the bare minimum is doable in three more not-so-awesome years there is no reason to hold him back now. The discouragement will not lessen as the years go by, if nothing changes with his health or attitude, so move up the end date and let him get on with adult life at 18. There will be options (military, trades, community college, jobs) wherein he can bridge some gaps as a young adult if he so chooses.

 

If, on the other hand, this has all been a temporary situation and you totally expect him to rally, health-wise, and truly embrace school, then it makes sense to delay the start of high school for another semester or year.

 

I say this as a mother of homeschooled teen boys who have needed their expectations and graduation dates adjusted because of real life.

 

 

Military isn't an option because his health issue is long-term.  It has been known to get far better the more you move away from puberty though (puberty exacerbates is).  I can't predict how he will be in one year or two.  I am hopeful that things will get better with time, but maybe I am just too optimistic?

[rdj2027]

We were wanting to hold our youngest son back before Kindergarten but had to enroll him so he get much needed therapies that we could not have paid for out of pocket.  We have always felt that he did not fit, not socially, not emotionally and not academically.  When we took him out of PS at the end of 5th grade we had our chance to give him a year to catch up.  He was so relieved to not have to run all the time never quite catching up to others.  He is now in 7th and it is the place where he feels comfortable and needs to be.  We did the same thing for your #2 son due to his many issues that the school was refusing to acknowledge let alone accommodate.  He spent two years in 8th grade which gave us time to catch up some things that went under in 6th and 7th grade as well as find ways to deal with his issues as far as academics and real life skills are concerned.  He is now in 9th, doing well and not feeling that the ship is sailing into the sunset without him on board. Both of them only needed time so that is what we gave them.

 

[gingersmom]

5th, 6 th , 7 th were a disaster for my daughter.

 

We homeschooled for 2 years and one year I called 5, 6, 7 and next year was 8th.

 

She is about to graduate high school and we have no regrets of holding her back a year.

 

It is quite common in rigorous private schools to hold kids back a grade (when they are new to the school)

[katilac]

What does he want to do? I'd present him with a few possibilities - repeating 8th, starting 9th with the idea that it might take 5 years due to health, and so on. 

 

Because the health problems are likely to be ongoing, I'd probably just keep on trucking, keeping in mind that it might take an extra year. 

 

I would consider a longer school year with shorter days, if you don't do that already. You could keep problems areas, like math and writing, very short and sweet with this plan. This might help with frustration levels and lessen review. I am a big believer in 'slow and steady wins the race,' especially under these circumstances. 

 

When he is sick and having trouble focusing, have plenty of easier educational materials at the ready. Documentaries, interesting books, fun science experiments, and so on. I wouldn't push it too hard if he really doesn't feel well, but he might like not feeling like he is just falling further behind. When he can do more, great. When he can't, make sure to count every possible applicable activity, so that he is moving right along in some subjects. 

 

If he really feels like he wants an extra year to guarantee that he can move more slowly through high school, I would have no problems with that. If he wants to move on to 9th, I'd have no problems with that either. When he gets closer to graduation, he can decide for himself if his goals require another year of preparation before college. 

[Ellie]

I would not "hold him back," although I might require him to earn a certain number of credits, graduating him when he completed them, whenever that is.

[hornblower]

I don't know if this is an option in your part of the world but my advice is honestly to stop thinking about grade levels. 

 

Where I live, we don't report, we don't have to do transcripts, we do our own thing. My kids never knew what grade they were supposed to be in - & it wasn't just them.

 

I remember a group of homeschoolers were enrolled in a college PE program (college kinesiology students learning to coach got free test subjects to play with - under the supervision of their teachers -  & we got free PE/games etc) and one of the sessions the instructors tried to do a warm up by asking the kids to sort themselves according to grade & their birthdate. Absolute chaos. Most didn't know their grade & a substantial number had no clue about their birthdates either...

After a while I started getting a bit embarrassed about the inarticulate "huh, I dunno" in certain social situations so I'd coach the kids. "It's the dentist. They'll ask about school because they can't think of anything else to ask. Make nice. Say I homeschool and I'm in Grade 7"....


Teach what level he's at, teach to mastery, challenge when necessary, pull back & revise or change methods when necessary & just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

And remember learning is not linear. It just isn't. Kids can plateau or 'be behind' for years & make huge gains in months. When things click & happen, it can change very quickly.

[Mom22ns]

I would not "hold him back". I would teach my child according to his level and graduate him from high school when I think he is ready.

I would keep good records and decide in retrospect if what he did in the coming year is high school level and warrants to be called 9th grade, or whether it should better be designated 8th grade. In fact, you can postpone declaring grade level for another few years (unless your state requires you to) - the point of no return is declaring Junior for the PSAT. Other than that, I'd just keep working and all doors open.

 

This, except the PSAT is not a point of no return. You only get to call him a Junior for the PSAT once, but that really doesn't matter at all for graduation. The point of no return is when you fill out the college applications and put a graduation date. Until then, just plug away and keep records.

 

If he is not capable of high school level work next year, you may need to call it 8th grade. However, it sounds like he will be doing Algebra, a high school level science, you can choose a light high school level history and something like Excellence in Lit Intro to Lit and have a gentle 9th grade year that he can manage and you can give credit for.

[bluedarling]

I've held back one child, and and am about to hold back another.   My oldest was held back 8th because I didn't feel he could handle ANY curriculum at a high school level.  He needed more time to get up to speed in writing and math.  I do not regret holding him back in the slightest (even considered holding him back again 10th, but didn't.)   The extra year helped keep him from being overwhelmed with the content of more difficult courses, and seems to have given added maturity that has been very helpful.  While the reasons were not medical, really, they were similar.  I would say if your son can handle the work at a high school level, and work at that pace, it makes sense to continue on.  Or you could do two years of 9th grade, and spread it out (5-year high school plan.)  This would allow him a little lighter load while dealing with the worsened issues from puberty.  (My son's issues improved greatly around 16yo!!)

 

I did not hold back his brother whose academics were fine, but maturity/executive function was not.  It was tempting, but I just didn't feel I could justify it.  Still wondering if that was the right decision. (He's also young for his grade.)

 

The third child is voluntarily agreeing to repeating 8th.  She just has no academic drive, and is easily frustrated.  She's going to ps next year, so repeating 8th will ease the transition.  If she were continuing to homeschool she would be a hard decision on whether to hold back, as she's capable of minimal work at a HS level, but would be rather overwhelmed, and fight it. So based on her personality I chose to go with repeating 8th. 

 

I think, though, for your son just a slower pace for 9th might work, if you think he's capable of work at that level.

[Ann.without.an.e]

My two (inexperienced) cents:  wait and see.  I would probably soldier forward as if he is starting 9th in the fall, keeping records accordingly, and then make the final decision later, at the last possible moment (for PSAT in 11th?).  By then you should have more information about the status of his medical situation, motivation to perform, and what sorts of schools he is interested in.

 

If he is 2e (or performs as such due to the medical issues) and might later become interested in the most competitive programs, then holding back could be useful for math track purposes as well as for squeezing in various APs on the back end, but if such programs aren't on the table, or conversely, if he gets/stays well and becomes sufficiently motivated to work through summers, there may be no need to hold back.

 

 

I see the term 2e but I don't know what it is?  I will probably say duh when you explain it :tongue_smilie:

[wapiti]

I see the term 2e but I don't know what it is?  I will probably say duh when you explain it :tongue_smilie:

 

2e = twice-exceptional, bright with learning issues (technically, gifted with learning disabilities, but I use the term more broadly, as the 2e-ness makes either end more difficult to accurately determine; having a gifted sibling would make me more suspicious of a possible 2e situation)

[Ann.without.an.e]

2e = twice-exceptional, bright with learning issues (technically, gifted with learning disabilities, but I use the term more broadly, as the 2e-ness makes either end more difficult to accurately determine; having a gifted sibling would make me more suspicious of a possible 2e situation)

 

 

He's actually bright in Science and reading.  His ability to understand certain things is pretty amazing sometimes, but he can't seem to get very far with math and writing is going to kill us :/  He just started learning a musical instrument for the first time and he is doing phenomenal.  He is shocking us all (including his teacher) with how fast he is picking it up.  He is not motivated and a huge part of this is the illness.  He battles inflammation and fatigue.  I want the best for this child, but I have no idea what that is. 

[maize]

This, except the PSAT is not a point of no return. You only get to call him a Junior for the PSAT once, but that really doesn't matter at all for graduation. The point of no return is when you fill out the college applications and put a graduation date. Until then, just plug away and keep records.

 

If he is not capable of high school level work next year, you may need to call it 8th grade. However, it sounds like he will be doing Algebra, a high school level science, you can choose a light high school level history and something like Excellence in Lit Intro to Lit and have a gentle 9th grade year that he can manage and you can give credit for.

Even the bit about only calling him a junior once for the PSAT may not be set in stone, I've seen a couple of threads discussing this issue (one where I think the child marked junior on the PSAT form their sophomore year) and per the college board PSAT records were not kept year to year so they could just mark junior again the next year.

 

Now if they actually qualified for national merit the first year and you still wanted an extra year before graduation perhaps it would be possible to officially consider the last year a gap year? Don't know how that would work.

[flyingiguana]

This, except the PSAT is not a point of no return. You only get to call him a Junior for the PSAT once, but that really doesn't matter at all for graduation. The point of no return is when you fill out the college applications and put a graduation date. Until then, just plug away and keep records.

 

Exactly.  Except that even filling out applications and putting in a graduation date is not even a point of no return.

 

With my 2nd, she applied and got in to college, and then decided to do another year of high school.  Best choice ever.  The college didn't care.  She even got in to other colleges (although decided to go to the first one after all).  College is now going great.  Not sure it would have if she'd gone when she was supposed to.  Some of her health issues got a whole lot better over that year, she put work in to learning all that math she couldn't master before because her head was so fuzzy, and she's just overall a lot better able to handle the constant homework of college.

 

The declaration of "junior" for the PSAT is only a point of no return for the PSAT and the possible scholarships associated with it.  But, realistically, most kids don't get any scholarship money out of the PSAT.  It's mostly the super star kids -- and they're going to get money no matter whether they take the PSAT or not, let alone when they take it and declare junior status.

 

If I were in the OP's shoes (oh, wait, I was....) I'd just keep plugging away with whatever came "next".  Mostly, this is an issue with math, which follows a sequence.  And if the student flunked out of pre-algebra, I probably wouldn't even repeat it.  I'd just go on to algebra and take it slow.  I'd hope the brain or emotions had matured to the point where algebra would suddenly click, even without a good year in pre-algebra.  If algebra doesn't click next year, it might be time to figure out why that is.

 

But no, I wouldn't fail him and hold him back a "grade".  Even if he's moving slow and eventually ends up taking 5 yrs to do 4 yrs of high school.  Or if he just doesn't get as much done in high school as some kids do.

 

It will be ok -- some kids need time to academically mature but will make great strides in the later years of high school.  Some will decide not to college -- or at least not immediately.  Some will go to college with less background in certain areas.  And they'll learn it in college.

[flyingiguana]

He's actually bright in Science and reading.  His ability to understand certain things is pretty amazing sometimes, but he can't seem to get very far with math and writing is going to kill us :/  He just started learning a musical instrument for the first time and he is doing phenomenal.  He is shocking us all (including his teacher) with how fast he is picking it up.  He is not motivated and a huge part of this is the illness.  He battles inflammation and fatigue.  I want the best for this child, but I have no idea what that is. 

 

I thought writing would kill us all too.  Now I've got 2 in college who never really wrote much -- but they are getting A's in their writing classes.

 

Concentrate on the reading, if that excites him.  He'll pick up writing by osmosis, if you're lucky.  That's how it worked for us.

 

Math is incredibly hard to get if you're not feeling good or the brain isn't working on all cylinders.

[flyingiguana]

btw -- my 2nd didn't even bother to take the PSAT.  What was the point?  We all knew she wasn't going to score in the 99.9th percentile without major studying.  She didn't want to study for it (who could blame her?).   She likely wouldn't score high enough for money even with major studying.  Most people don't.

 

Colleges never look at it.  The whole point is to get a focused mailing list that the College Board can sell to colleges.  By getting scholarship money donated from companies, it's a fairly cheap way to get a lucrative mailing list.

 

For many kids, it may be useful to have a practice run at a standardized test, but, well, you could just take the ACT twice.  If there's a big improvement on the 2nd one, most colleges will just look at that.

 

If your goal is hyper-selective colleges this might not be the best advice, but that doesn't apply to most kids.

[Lori D.]

:grouphug:  hugs, Charleigh!  :grouphug:

 

Struggling with ds...He has average to above average intellectual ability and zero desire.

 

This is true for lots of students, especially in elementary, middle school and into high school.

 

Sometimes it's an attitude that changes somewhere along about age 16/17/18 as they mature. Sometimes it takes reaching adulthood, and they see a goal they want and then see how school is the hoop they need to jump through to get there, and are then more able to apply themselves academically in their post-high school education. Some people will just never be motivated by academics/school, and they find their own path and excel in other areas. 

 

 

This year we have had to scale back to...

Pre-algebra (again)

Writing with skill 1 (young for him, but he struggles with writing)

7th grade history text

High School Biology (Science is his strength)

Some literature (he reads a ton so I haven't stressed about making lit a subject for him since he struggles with written assignments)

 

Totally JMO, but honestly, this sounds like a perfectly normal 8th grade schedule, and it sounds like he's doing especially well for a student also dealing with a chronic illness that interferes with being able to do school work.

 

I'm basing the following comments on what I see from a google search of what classes typical, average public schools offering, and from the syllabi of typical schools:

 

Math = right on average

Pre-Algebra in 8th, Algebra 1 in 9th enables a student to complete up through Pre-Calc. in the senior year, which is college admission requirement for the majority of schools (It's the top tier, competitive, and selective schools, and students going into rigorous STEM programs who need more.) There are some colleges that only require up through Algebra 2. And if DS ends up wanting to go into a field that requires more math, there is always the possibility of dual enrollment for math in the senior, or in the summer between high school and college.

 

History = right in normal range

Using a text that is a year "up" or a year "down" is perfectly within normal range. History does not have sharply defined requirements for each grade, so as long as you're learning something, and using materials that help the student advance, then you're fine. :)

 

Science = right on target

Biology is a 9th grade science for the average student, or done in 8th grade for students on a STEM track. Since science is DS's strength, he's in a good place here, working at "STEM track" level.

 

Literature

You didn't mention any details about what you're covering (what works, how many, learning literary elements or about literature topics, etc.). This is another "mushy" subject, but I'd say that at the 8th grade level with an average student, if you're working towards exposure to a several different types of works: novels (of different genres), short stories, poetry, biography, essay, plays -- say, 3 out of those 6 different types of works in a year -- and if you're doing some beginning analysis (learning literary elements, and using some thinking/discussion questions), then you are within normal range for 8th grade.

 

That's just my loose guideline of what I would expect from an average 8th grader (FWIW! ;) ), and I am basing that on looking at the scope & sequence of middle school Literature programs (like LL7 and LL8, for example), and at the syllabus for English for grades 7 and 8 for public schools (I just did a quick Google search).

 

Writing

Writing is a VERY difficult area to judge developmentally. IMO, it's a sort-of "mushy" and subjective subject to begin with, and developmentally, it sure seems to me that students fall in a very wide continuum here -- some "click" with writing in 6th grade; some only begin to "click" with writing in 9th, 10th or 11th grade. It does not seem to be a skill that can be forced or hastened. It requires the ability to think/organize. And different students "click" with different types of writing instruction/programs -- so that's a whole different can of worms to untangle -- taking the time to figure out what is going to work for YOUR student.

 

Writing can certainly be tackled as a separate subject, and do more oral discussion and only an occasional writing assignment for Literature, or keep writing assignments for Literature short -- just a paragraph in answer to a specific discussion question, for example.  In other words, don't let a slower timetable for Writing hold you back in the student's working level in Literature.

 

 

… would you hold this child back and call him 8th again next year?  Maybe not in social situations but for school subject and transcript purposes?

 

Honestly? If I wasn't *required* to make a decision right now by regulations, I'd take a wait-and-see approach. Your DS sounds on track to me, but just having to move slower through the material due to illness.

 

 If I was not required to declare a grade at this point, I would just keep moving forward at whatever pace circumstances allowed. I would start keeping records now for practice, and to include the Biology on the high school transcript. I would have a college-prep list of credits for DS to work through (so that admission to the average college would be an option for the future, just in case). And then I would graduate him once he had completed the credits, whether it took 4, 4.5, or 5 years.

 

The thing is, students change SO much in the middle/high school years. The unmotivated 7th/8th grader today, may almost overnight turn serious about school (or at least see the point of it) in 11th grade.

 

Also, your circumstances may change dramatically -- DS may improve in health greatly, and be able to take on more credits in 10th, 11th, or 12th grade, to graduate "as usual".

 

He may be up for or interested in dual enrollment in 11th/12th grades, which can knock out a 1-year credit in 1 semester. Or, want to pursue a vocational/tech certificate or Associate's degree as part of dual enrollment.

 

Again, if it were me, I'd probably keep that idea of repeating 8th grade, or doing a 5th year of high school, in my back pocket. I'd keep records so I'd have whatever was needed for whatever decision ultimately worked out best. And for now, I'd just keep moving forward, and see where we stand at the end of this year, and again at the end of next year, before saying anything to DS, or making any decisions.

 

That's just me, not knowing your DS or your family or your circumstances. :)  :grouphug:  BEST of luck as you move through this time and for when you need to make a decision. AND, hope a good treatment or time/nature help DS recover from the chronic illness so that it no longer ends up being a factor! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[JBJones]

I wanted to bump this thread as it has been very helpful to my personal situation. I have an Aspie tween who has no academic drive and is frustrated extremely easy, especially pertaining to learning new/more difficult concepts in math.  Possible 2E. She suffers from several health problems that can make it harder to get school done. We are seriously considering a Part II for 7th grade (and possibly a Part II for 8th grade) due to mental and emotional immaturity. DD and I have discussed it and she's receptive to the opportunity.  She wants to do well in high school so she can go on to college.

Thank-you Charleigh for starting this thread and everyone's replies. It's nice to know there are other people going through some of the same circumstances that we are.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I wanted to bump this thread as it has been very helpful to my personal situation. I have an Aspie tween who has no academic drive and is frustrated extremely easy as well. Possible 2E. She suffers from several health problems that can make it harder to get school done. We are seriously considering a Part II for 7th grade (to begin with) due to mental and emotional immaturity.

Thank-you Charleigh for starting this thread and everyone's replies.

 

 

These decisions are tough, right?  We've decided to keep trucking forward for now but we are willing (and even see it as a great possibility) that DS will have 5 years of HS and we will need to adjust his transcript accordingly. 

[JBJones]

These decisions are tough, right?  We've decided to keep trucking forward for now but we are willing (and even see it as a great possibility) that DS will have 5 years of HS and we will need to adjust his transcript accordingly. 

 

Yes, they are very tough decisions. Thank-you again for starting this discussion. :o

 

[JBJones]

These decisions are tough, right?  We've decided to keep trucking forward for now but we are willing (and even see it as a great possibility) that DS will have 5 years of HS and we will need to adjust his transcript accordingly. 

 

Yes, they are very tough decisions. Thank-you again for starting this discussion. :o

Sorry--double post.

 

[FloridaLisa]

These decisions are tough, right?  We've decided to keep trucking forward for now but we are willing (and even see it as a great possibility) that DS will have 5 years of HS and we will need to adjust his transcript accordingly. 

 

I've known several friends that have chosen (along with their kids) to have their child do what they call a super senior year -- basically add one more year onto high school. There were different reasons in each situation, but parents and child were all happy with the decision. 

 

Remember Charleigh, that 8th and 9th grades can be very sluggish years academically and in maturity for teens. I've been amazed at the people my kids are by the time they're seniors. There is such maturing that goes on every single year and sometimes these decisions are hard to make until you really can gauge what they're like in the senior year. 

 

Lisa

[Michelle_NC]

One of the great things about homeschooling is you don't have to declare a grade.  He could be in 9th grade and working on 8th grade math and 10th grade literature if that was a good fit.  You can clean up his transcript at the end so that everything falls into the right column.  But other than that, I'd just keep moving forward from where he is now.  When he completes the work needed for graduation then he's done - whether it takes 3 years or 5 years or something in between. 

 

And I agree that 8th and 9th are difficult years!  I'm surprised how much momentum we've gotten in 10th and 11th grade.  They really do mature a lot in high school.

 

 

[teeterbunch]

What if they are juniors (a month away from being 17) and they STILL are not showing that maturity of work ethic?  I have been waiting for this to kick in, and it's just not happening.  My husband and I were talking tonight about rather than a gap year after graduation, giving him a gap year now.  He would have to get a job, but his free time would be his.  The issue is that he is accomplishing so little this year, and not doing great in what he is accomplishing, that I feel uncomfortable awarding him grades.  This was the first year I gave him his math book (precalculus) and said, just give me the tests when you are done.  He got to the second unit test and bombed it.  When I started reviewing with him, I realized we had to go all the way back to chapter 1.  So we have spent since Christmas "catching up" and we're still not to the unit test he failed.  And he seems to have no concerns about this.  I also gave him independence with an online Constitutional Law course at Patrick Henry College.  This is his area of interest.  He made a C+.  I know he regrets that outcome, but it doesn't seem to be motivating him to study harder in his other courses, evidenced by the 78 on his latest Physics test (Derek Owens).  I am so frustrated.  Can I give him a year off to work in the real world and then continue homeschooling him when he's ready to work hard?  Thanks for any advice.  And feel free to try to talk me down off the ledge. : )

 

Ashley

[scoutingmom]

My main concern is it might lead him to basically just dropping out.

[kiana]

What if they are juniors (a month away from being 17) and they STILL are not showing that maturity of work ethic?  I have been waiting for this to kick in, and it's just not happening.  My husband and I were talking tonight about rather than a gap year after graduation, giving him a gap year now.  He would have to get a job, but his free time would be his.  The issue is that he is accomplishing so little this year, and not doing great in what he is accomplishing, that I feel uncomfortable awarding him grades.  This was the first year I gave him his math book (precalculus) and said, just give me the tests when you are done.  He got to the second unit test and bombed it.  When I started reviewing with him, I realized we had to go all the way back to chapter 1.  So we have spent since Christmas "catching up" and we're still not to the unit test he failed.  And he seems to have no concerns about this.  I also gave him independence with an online Constitutional Law course at Patrick Henry College.  This is his area of interest.  He made a C+.  I know he regrets that outcome, but it doesn't seem to be motivating him to study harder in his other courses, evidenced by the 78 on his latest Physics test (Derek Owens).  I am so frustrated.  Can I give him a year off to work in the real world and then continue homeschooling him when he's ready to work hard?  Thanks for any advice.  And feel free to try to talk me down off the ledge. : )

 

Ashley

 

For the record, I think almost all of my college students would fail if I handed them the math book and said "give me the tests when you are done" -- even the juniors and seniors who are normally hard-working students. I do not think this is a reasonable level to expect for high school students, although some highly motivated ones may achieve it.

 

I think giving him a gap year now would, as suggested above, lead to him dropping out with nothing.

[Ann.without.an.e]

My main concern is it might lead him to basically just dropping out.

 

 

:iagree:

[AngieW in Texas]

What if they are juniors (a month away from being 17) and they STILL are not showing that maturity of work ethic?  I have been waiting for this to kick in, and it's just not happening.  My husband and I were talking tonight about rather than a gap year after graduation, giving him a gap year now.  He would have to get a job, but his free time would be his.  The issue is that he is accomplishing so little this year, and not doing great in what he is accomplishing, that I feel uncomfortable awarding him grades.  This was the first year I gave him his math book (precalculus) and said, just give me the tests when you are done.  He got to the second unit test and bombed it.  When I started reviewing with him, I realized we had to go all the way back to chapter 1.  So we have spent since Christmas "catching up" and we're still not to the unit test he failed.  And he seems to have no concerns about this.  I also gave him independence with an online Constitutional Law course at Patrick Henry College.  This is his area of interest.  He made a C+.  I know he regrets that outcome, but it doesn't seem to be motivating him to study harder in his other courses, evidenced by the 78 on his latest Physics test (Derek Owens).  I am so frustrated.  Can I give him a year off to work in the real world and then continue homeschooling him when he's ready to work hard?  Thanks for any advice.  And feel free to try to talk me down off the ledge. : )

 

Ashley

 

I teach at a dropout prevention school. Like others, I worry that giving him a year off from high school will end up leading him to just quit. 

 

Instead, I would take him down to bare bones.  What is the minimum acceptable in order for him to graduate? Maybe try something like American School. At least get him through the minimum so that he completes high school. If you don't feel that he will do anything beyond high school, then I would try to do something for him that will get him an official certificate of some kind that is recognized. 

 

While a very strong, rigorous education for high school is preferred, a strong, rigorous high school education that doesn't get finished won't do him any good. There are different levels of diplomas in my state. Minimum plan students graduate with 22 credits and cannot go directly to a 4-year university. They have to go community college first. Recommended plan (what most kids graduate under) kids graduate with 26 credits. Distinguished plan kids also graduate with 26 credits, but they have fewer electives and have to take a higher level of math and one more year of foreign language.

 

If he is already taking precalculus as an 11th grader, is there a possibility that you could call this his senior year and graduate him at the end of the summer or in December? Take a look back through what he has completed and what he did in 8th grade. Maybe that could have been his 9th grade year. 

 

Maybe if he saw how little he really needs to complete in order to graduate, he will be more motivated to get done. I know that at our school, the kids get very motivated when they get down to only 4-5 credits left to complete.  I have also had students complete entire full credit courses in social studies and electives in just a few weeks. Take out all busywork and concentrate on the fundamentals.  

 

 

[FaithManor]

One thing you have working for you is that he loves science and appears to be talented. Run with it. Let him wallow in it, become a science prune! The reason I say this is that there comes a point in every field of science in which math comes back to haunt you. You cannot love biology and not eventually be stone walled by biochemistry. You cannot love chemistry and not end up embracing mathematics. Physics speaks for itself as well as aerospace such as rocketry, and astronomy. Even computer science will eventually require sound algebraic skills. So what you might find as you let him take multiple sciences at once and allow him to pursue his interests is that he begins to want to struggle with mathematics in order to pursue more science.

 

At some point, documenting his work then becomes an issue and that means writing as well. Let him lean towards technical writing, invest in lab equipment and experiments but require lab notebooks/sheets to be filled out, and then gently correct him in his mistakes. Remind him that a good scientist must have excellent documentation so that those that come behind them can reproduce their results. Let him read about famous scientists.

 

Einstein, for the level of science he achieved, was not a particularly outstanding mathematician. He had to study math very, very hard, and often gained assistance from other students who were gifted in that way. He shared his Nobel prize money with his ex-wife because she edited his mathematics work on relativity. So, if your son loves it enough, he might just find a way.

 

My youngest is an awesome math and science mind that doesn't care two hoots for punctuation, spelling, or sentence structure but who began really pouring on the steam in that department when we wouldn't let him enter a science fair that had heady documentation requirements until he proved he was up to the challenge. He took the baton and ran.

 

So, I would look for ways to try to roll his math and writing education into that passion for science. There is nothing wrong with focusing on technical writing. To be honest, once engaged and enthusiastic, the standard five paragraph essay is easily learned, and those first essays can absolutely be all about science!

 

Above all else, life is precious and the first and foremost concern is of course guarding his health so (((hugs))) to you because it's difficult to find that balance between too much and not enough when you have a chronically ill child.

[teeterbunch]

Okay, so I think I'm hearing that your advice is to find a way to finish the year in a satisfying way. Also, rather than being frustrated with his immaturity, I should meet him where he is. I can do that. It actual feels like a huge relief to forget the AP exam for World History and just call the class Ancient to Medieval History. Taking the ACT off the table is a relief as well.

 

We really need a summer break this year, so I'm thinking of just stopping math where we are at the middle of June. It should work out for us to make it to the 3rd unit test, so that's a reasonable place to stop. I guess I just call it Trig on the transcript, and call next year Precalculus. So, here's a question...what's a small step up from MathUSee that we could use next? I think that would be better than repeating the same curriculum.

 

Thank you so much for all you caring advice!!

 

Ashley

[Michelle_NC]

This was the first year I gave him his math book (precalculus) and said, just give me the tests when you are done.  He got to the second unit test and bombed it.   I also gave him independence with an online Constitutional Law course at Patrick Henry College.  This is his area of interest.  He made a C

 

I wouldn't hold this against him entirely.  Its a rare student who can teach themselves math (especially the higher levels) and online courses are notoriously difficult.  Failure rates are consistently around 25 - 30% from what I've read, so making a C is pretty good (and counts as an Honors course, so really a B).

[hornblower]

What if they are juniors (a month away from being 17) and they STILL are not showing that maturity of work ethic?  I have been waiting for this to kick in, and it's just not happening.  My husband and I were talking tonight about rather than a gap year after graduation, giving him a gap year now.  He would have to get a job, but his free time would be his.  The issue is that he is accomplishing so little this year, and not doing great in what he is accomplishing, that I feel uncomfortable awarding him grades.  This was the first year I gave him his math book (precalculus) and said, just give me the tests when you are done.  He got to the second unit test and bombed it.  When I started reviewing with him, I realized we had to go all the way back to chapter 1.  So we have spent since Christmas "catching up" and we're still not to the unit test he failed.  And he seems to have no concerns about this.  I also gave him independence with an online Constitutional Law course at Patrick Henry College.  This is his area of interest.  He made a C+.  I know he regrets that outcome, but it doesn't seem to be motivating him to study harder in his other courses, evidenced by the 78 on his latest Physics test (Derek Owens).  I am so frustrated.  Can I give him a year off to work in the real world and then continue homeschooling him when he's ready to work hard?  Thanks for any advice.  And feel free to try to talk me down off the ledge. : )

 

Ashley

 

Hi, my ds is turning 17 next month  & I also have a 20 yo. I'm ditto'ing the comments above - do not give him a gap year now.

 

my advice is paradoxically to both relax & to leap in hard.

 

Relax in the sense of stop obsessing about age & grade. You can take an extra year to get your credits together. It's ok to go to college when you're 18, 19, 20...  Earlier is not always better. (it's possible that in a year or two he'll benefit from a travel or work experience. But I wouldn't do it now.)

 

At the same time, leap in hard on guiding your son. These years are IME as intense as the first years of trying to get kids to dress themselves, to learn to read, master the basics of counting etc. In our home it's been a time of intensive prodding, support, hand holding, explicit instruction in time management, and study skills and lots of supervision.  Imagine that he's back to learning to ride a bike & you've got the training wheels on. You're the training wheels & the hand guiding the back of the seat. Do NOT let go & don't take those wheels off until you're very sure he won't fall. He might wobble but don't just let him wipe out. I think it's too risky to take a big fall at this age...

 

I think some of the ambivalence in this age group comes from kids not really knowing what to do, not sure what career to go into, not sure what they're capable of, probably having some secret dream that they're embarrassed to even voice, never mind actually formulate a plan to achieve. My kids are both like this & all I've been doing is saying you don't have to decide now, let's just keep your options open.

 

I've voiced some concerns on this board about my kids being not very 'self-directed' and was reassured that it's not unusual. In that thread we talked about the treadmill that ps kids are on - many of them kind of glide through these years because if they've fallen in with a good group of peers and have some decent teachers & counselors, & in response to these societal expectations & peer pressure they just get guided on a good path; but that doesn't mean that without all that they wouldn't be going "um, I dunno. Whatever." if left to their own devices.  There are the (rarer, imo) kids who are driven by clear goals from a very young age but in the absence of a clear sign of such, it's our job as hs parents to be the peer group/the teacher/the counselors & the treadmill and to really make sure these kids end up in a good place.

 

 

[Lori D.]

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:

 

Hugely agree with Hornblower's entire post here. I have 2 late bloomer sons and this is *exactly* where they were at age 17. And 18. And providing all that support and scaffolding was absolutely KEY, esp. as neither has had a clue as to what they want to do for their futures -- and not due to goofing off, either; lots of career exploration and discussion has happened all along the way.

 

Finally, around age 19 in the first year after high school graduation, they started to take that baton. Even now at ages 21 and 22, the clanking sound of the baton hitting the ground rather than passing smoothly is still heard a bit more frequently than makes me comfortable, but we move forward, slowly but surely. ;)