LAmom Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 My dd is in 6th grade and working through MM6. She has a terrible time retaining what is learned. She seems to understand most of the concepts but when it comes to tests or reviews she doesn't remember. She is to the point where I am even realizing that while she knows her math facts, she does not know them quickly and well. I want her to master those. :( I am adding in more review now, doing math facts daily to help with that. But, I really think she may need a spiral program. :( What do you suggest? CLE? Saxon? If I go with CLE, then what would I use for 7th? I plan right now to use Saxon for 7th through high school. Should I just get 7/6 now? I do like the workbook approach of CLE and the constant review. She needs it! Anyways, any input would be appreciated! I am also hesitant with the other kids using MM, as I don't want to end up in the same place when they are in 6th! I may switch them over to something else, too. I love MM and the idea of it--it has just been so hard to implement here and math is not being enjoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrightmom Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Christian Light gets my vote. We have been using it for a few years with my youngers while I've been with MM for years with my oldest. This month I dropped MM6 with him and put him in CLE all the way back to LU602. After he gets the hang of the format I am going to accelerate him through it. The review in CLE is excellent for him and I like that he is focusing on arithmetic rather than problem solving. My goal is to spend two sessions a week with MM doing harder problems. MM does teach concepts and thinking skills much better than CLE so I do not want to let that go. But, we have had a similar experience in 6th grade math and I am taking matters into my own hands. :coolgleamA: With my kids who use CLE as their math spine it has worked well for us to use MM woven in. At times, I'll do an entire MM chapter with them in an area in which they need depth or more practice. I find the combination of MM and CLE to be ideal here. Your comments about Saxon are intriguing as just today I printed the placement test for Saxon Middle Grades math. I am considering moving to Saxon next and want to see how my son places now. I like the Saxon/DIVE schedules My Father's World sells. :coolgleamA: ETA: Christian Light is wonderful and makes getting math done with many kids so doable!!! You will find yourself able to get kids started independently while you run through each child's drill one at a time. My kids can start their drill and We Remember (review material which comprises the majority of their lessons) while I move one a time to teach new material and finish up/correct drills. It works so well. Only once in a while do I need to spend extra time with a struggling student. I also love the support materials that one purchases with CLE math such as the Reference Charts (you must get these), 100 Charts and flashcards. It is such an organized and teacher/student friendly curriculum. At times I miss the problem solving taught in MM but CLE is so well rounded and lays a strong foundation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrightmom Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I do want to add that as of 6th grade CLE doesn't do the daily drills anymore. A student coming up through CLE would have them mastered by this point. So, you'll have to continue that on your own and on the side if you believe your DC needs the drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAmom Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Do you have a schedule of how you use CLE and MM? What does your week look like, etc.? So, if I move her to CLE 600 the reviews are not included anymore? Hmmm, I need those..... I'm not good on my own! But, I am trying. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 If you shift over to CLE, please give her the placement tests first. Start back a few levels to see if there are any gaps. Target the gaps before starting her on CLE. You might even consider starting her one level below where she tested and just accelerate through, maybe using just the last 5 light unit booklets, if there were any trouble spots. Easy to accelerate through the program because it is such a tight spiral. Just cross out most of the review problems for areas she already has down, skip the quizzes and tests, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Oh, and some have had trouble with the placement test. They are free, but most need to download them onto their computer before printing them. If you order them they are $2 a piece and are mailed to you but just downloading off the website and printing is free and fast. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 My dd is in 6th grade and working through MM6. She has a terrible time retaining what is learned. She seems to understand most of the concepts but when it comes to tests or reviews she doesn't remember. She is to the point where I am even realizing that while she knows her math facts, she does not know them quickly and well. I want her to master those. :( I am adding in more review now, doing math facts daily to help with that. But, I really think she may need a spiral program. :( What do you suggest? CLE? Saxon? If I go with CLE, then what would I use for 7th? I plan right now to use Saxon for 7th through high school. Should I just get 7/6 now? I do like the workbook approach of CLE and the constant review. She needs it! Anyways, any input would be appreciated! I am also hesitant with the other kids using MM, as I don't want to end up in the same place when they are in 6th! I may switch them over to something else, too. I love MM and the idea of it--it has just been so hard to implement here and math is not being enjoyed. If you're planning to go to Saxon anyway, I don't see a point in waiting. But please, please do the placement test rather than assuming that your dc will start in 76. Saxon is *not* "spiral;" it is incremental. But it will have the constant review you're looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAmom Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 I have looked at the CLE test. I already see there are gaps. For example, she has not studied integers or square roots yet! But, I am not sure how to pick and choose which light unit to get from level 500. I know there is a scope and sequence but does it separate by light unit? Maybe I should just whisk her through CLE 500 to solidify facts, etc., and then continue slowly with MM? I don't want to mess her up because I was hopeful to start pre-A next year. Though, what's the point if she doesn't have her facts solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAmom Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 If you're planning to go to Saxon anyway, I don't see a point in waiting. But please, please do the placement test rather than assuming that your dc will start in 76. Saxon is *not* "spiral;" it is incremental. But it will have the constant review you're looking for. I hesitate with Saxon because of discussions I've read on this board! I would be buying the 4th edition and it is not as desirable as older versions? It does make sense to me to just move to Saxon now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I have looked at the CLE test. I already see there are gaps. For example, she has not studied integers or square roots yet! But, I am not sure how to pick and choose which light unit to get from level 500. I know there is a scope and sequence but does it separate by light unit? Maybe I should just whisk her through CLE 500 to solidify facts, etc., and then continue slowly with MM? I don't want to mess her up because I was hopeful to start pre-A next year. Though, what's the point if she doesn't have her facts solid. CLE is basically a constant spiral. Nothing is separated out by unit. Have you given her the placement tests? Start further back then you planned. See where all the gaps might be so you can target those specifically. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to buy the light units going that far back. It just gives you areas you know she needs more work. Then, for whatever level she tests into, maybe look at purchasing just the TM for the prior level so you can see the all the lessons and the explanations for the lessons from the previous level. The TMs aren't that bad, cost-wise, compared to other systems. Anything that she struggled with a bit in the prior level you can work with her on using a dry erase board and the TM. That way you don't have to shell out for the light units if they aren't needed. And since you don't yet know if this program will work, I would probably just purchase a couple of light units to start with on the level she tests into. Be aware that it takes some time from when you place the order to when they arrive (sometimes a few weeks sometimes less). FWIW, the first Light Unit of any level is always a review unit so I guess you could get that Light Unit and run her through to target areas she may not have done well on in the placement test from the level prior to the one she tested into. CLE is easy to accelerate so don't stress about being behind. If you are planning to use Saxon for the rest of her math, though, I agree with Ellie, maybe look at starting it now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I hesitate with Saxon because of discussions I've read on this board! I would be buying the 4th edition and it is not as desirable as older versions? It does make sense to me to just move to Saxon now.... Did you not see all the positive comments as well as the negative? Because they were there, I assure you. :-) Saxon has been a best-seller since it was first published almost 30 years ago. It has a proven track record of success. Of course some people don't like it; that doesn't mean it isn't an excellent product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAmom Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Did you not see all the positive comments as well as the negative? Because they were there, I assure you. :-) Saxon has been a best-seller since it was first published almost 30 years ago. It has a proven track record of success. Of course some people don't like it; that doesn't mean it isn't an excellent product. I have seen positive and IRL friends love it. I have read that 2nd edition is better? Or 3rd? The 4th edition isn't tried and true, right? That is where I hesitate. And I don't like buying old editions of things! :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jens2sons Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 If you are wanting mastery, then moving over to a spiral approach may cause way more problems. Spiral does not teach mastery. I tried doing this with ds17 and it was a disaster. Saxon is not always the best when the child is struggling with concepts. I suggest trying a different mastery based program like Math-U-See or Rod & Staff, etc and take your time going back to the basic to fill in the gaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnMomof7 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 CLE is the awesomeness!! We initially used MUS, then MM - neither worked well for retention. We needed CLE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 FWIW, I have never used Saxon but know many that love it. It has been used for many years with great success by many homeschooled families. It does not work for everyone, but then nothing works for everyone. :) I HAVE used MUS, MM, Math on the Level, Math in Focus, etc. CLE is my favorite for one child. Math in Focus seems to work better for the other. Different kids need different things. OP, if your child is struggling with retention, a mastery program very well may not work. CLE could be a great fit. It has been a huge success here. But I had to take DD back a few levels and accelerate forward to fill in the gaps. Worked beautifully and I LOVE the way CLE does math fact review. If math facts are the issue, go back a bit in CLE, follow their program and accelerate where needed. Solidifying things now will save tons of headaches later on. (I say that but with the caveat that if there are undiagnosed learning challenges, more may be needed.) And at least the cost to just try a couple of Light Units is not very much at all. Good luck and best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasperstone Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 My dc started with MUS, but they didn't retain it. We switched to CLE Maths and have been thrilled with the progress. Highly recommend it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasperstone Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Quote- CLE is easy to accelerate so don't stress about being behind. End ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I actually find it a year ahead than most anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAmom Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 CLE is the awesomeness!! We initially used MUS, then MM - neither worked well for retention. We needed CLE! Will you continue with CLE? Or use something else for pre-alg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 If you are wanting mastery, then moving over to a spiral approach may cause way more problems. Spiral does not teach mastery. I tried doing this with ds17 and it was a disaster. Saxon is not always the best when the child is struggling with concepts. I suggest trying a different mastery based program like Math-U-See or Rod & Staff, etc and take your time going back to the basic to fill in the gaps. That must be why Saxon is so good, because it isn't spiral. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jens2sons Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 That must be why Saxon is so good, because it isn't spiral. :-) The information I have found and looked up says that Saxon is spiral. Be it a slower spiral, but spiral none the less. I think their website says its "incremental" which is just another way of saying that it's spiral. I just strongly caution parents that want to use Saxon with students that are struggling with concepts. I'm speaking from my own experience of course, but I've also talked to many homeschool families in my co-op and they have had similar experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 The information I have found and looked up says that Saxon is spiral. Be it a slower spiral, but spiral none the less. From the beginning, Saxon was described as "incremental," which is not "spiral," regardless of speed. Since the spiral vs mastery issue has become more popular, I think more people have begun grouping Saxon with the spiral maths, but no, it isn't spiral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 That must be why Saxon is so good, because it isn't spiral. :-) :laugh: Well, that is why Saxon is so good for some. Saxon works well for many. Obviously it does or it wouldn't have lasted this long or have so many staunch supporters. It clearly does not work for all. There have been many great posts about that program from both sides of the coin and it is obvious there are those for whom it did not work. At all. From everything I have read, I have come to the conclusion that there is no one perfect curriculum that will work for all kids. That seems just fine to me. We are individuals. We won't all function the same way when placed in the same situation. And as far as I can see, there is nothing inherently wrong with spiral or mastery or incremental or a combination of whatever. Some work for some and others work for others and some need a combination, KWIM? My daughter needs a tight spiral. Mastery only is a total waste. Long spiral doesn't work, either. CLE has been a huge help to her. DS needs more color and a more conceptual approach. Math in Focus works better for him. I looked at Saxon many times. I did not try it because it did not seem to be a good fit for my kids. But I know it is a great choice for many others. Best wishes everyone. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I am pretty happy doing CLE a smidgen behind where the child is conceptually for that spiral review. It does a excellent job of taking understanding to mastery and automacity. I am also concerned about my 6th grader being REALLY ready for higher maths. I know he will excel once we get there, and he could probably hack algebra and do it better than arithmetic (if he had the luxury of a calculator), but I want to give him extra time with arithmetic b/c I believe that it will give him the best chance at a STEM career if he so chooses (and he says he wants to be an engineer...). I like Strayer-Upton for facility with arithmetic too. Like - SUPER! like it. But, it's not in worktext format. CLE does the job without any prep (and hardly any teaching) by me. That leaves me time to do CWP with him. I hit concepts via CWP with him. He does CWP a grade level ahead of CLE, but he's LD/2E...do placement tests. I'm looking into Jousting Armadillos for when we have no more CWP to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAmom Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 I am pretty happy doing CLE a smidgen behind where the child is conceptually for that spiral review. It does a excellent job of taking understanding to mastery and automacity. I am also concerned about my 6th grader being REALLY ready for higher maths. I know he will excel once we get there, and he could probably hack algebra and do it better than arithmetic (if he had the luxury of a calculator), but I want to give him extra time with arithmetic b/c I believe that it will give him the best chance at a STEM career if he so chooses (and he says he wants to be an engineer...). I like Strayer-Upton for facility with arithmetic too. Like - SUPER! like it. But, it's not in worktext format. CLE does the job without any prep (and hardly any teaching) by me. That leaves me time to do CWP with him. I hit concepts via CWP with him. He does CWP a grade level ahead of CLE, but he's LD/2E...do placement tests. I'm looking into Jousting Armadillos for when we have no more CWP to do. What will you do for pre-algebra? Stick with CLE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 :laugh: Well, that is why Saxon is so good for some. Saxon works well for many. Obviously it does or it wouldn't have lasted this long or have so many staunch supporters. It clearly does not work for all. There have been many great posts about that program from both sides of the coin and it is obvious there are those for whom it did not work. At all. From everything I have read, I have come to the conclusion that there is no one perfect curriculum that will work for all kids. That seems just fine to me. We are individuals. We won't all function the same way when placed in the same situation. And as far as I can see, there is nothing inherently wrong with spiral or mastery or incremental or a combination of whatever. Some work for some and others work for others and some need a combination, KWIM? My daughter needs a tight spiral. Mastery only is a total waste. Long spiral doesn't work, either. CLE has been a huge help to her. DS needs more color and a more conceptual approach. Math in Focus works better for him. I looked at Saxon many times. I did not try it because it did not seem to be a good fit for my kids. But I know it is a great choice for many others. Best wishes everyone. :) Of course. :-) I was just pointing out the fact that Saxon isn't spiral, not saying that it's good for everyone. I think all of us know that. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tewyuanagu Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 you'll have to continue that on your own and on the side if you believe your DC needs the drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omma Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 We switched in to Saxon at level 8/7 from a mastery approach. For one dc, it has not made too much difference as they were already an excellent math student. But for the other, I believe Saxon has been a godsend. Even so, they struggled with 2-hour math days for much of that first year; and then we went to Saxon Alg. 1/2 for the added retention and practice, and now we are into Saxon Algebra 1. Lessons only take 1 hour or less now, because they understand what they are doing! So,for us Saxon is working out great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrightmom Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Do you have a schedule of how you use CLE and MM? What does your week look like, etc.? So, if I move her to CLE 600 the reviews are not included anymore? Hmmm, I need those..... I'm not good on my own! But, I am trying. :) I don't have a schedule. We just started LU602 this week. He has not scored well on either lesson and up until this year I've considered my son a strong math student. It's been a hard hard year of math for some reason .... We are about halfway through Math Mammoth 6th grade and I really don't know exactly how this will play out for him. It's possible that we'll go back a few light units into 5th if necessary and accelerate by doing all of the drill and New material and only doing the We Remember (review) portions every other lesson. It's still up in the air for me and I really wish I'd moved him to CLE for 5th as I was strongly considering it at the time for the same reasons I am up against now. However, I weighed the decision carefully, asked for advice, etc. and made the best decision I could at the time. CLE 600 has lots of review but doesn't have the Daily Drill that is present in the other levels. I really wish they did include drill but students coming up through all levels of CLE Math will have their facts mastered. ETA: It is breaking my heart .... these math struggles. I do not understand WHY, if I follow along carefully with a structured math program, my child is so asynchronous in his math abilities and can't seem to transfer MANY skills to other math paradigms. I feel SICK when I think he needs to go way back to 5th grade CLE Math to pick up BASICS that he lacks. I wish I could explain why retention is poor and why skill transfer is poor and why it seems like his brain fell out of his skull this past year. Maybe we can blame hormones but it sure doesn't help Moms of 6th graders KNOW what is best. We may start at the halfway point with CLE 5th (I have all of it here .... ) and accelerate it before picking back up with 6th. He did so poorly on both lessons in LU602. I gave him a Saxon Middle Grades Placement test today. He'd have to start with 7/6. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnMomof7 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 We plan on using CLE until the end of the 700s at least and see f we are ready for Algebra. If not, we'll do the 800s as well. Then transfer into Saxon for Algebra etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnMomof7 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Abrightmom - did you use the placement tests before starting CLE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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