S/O: Muslim "No-Go" Zones in France, Elsewhere

[AlmiraGulch]

I'm hearing more and more about these "No-Go" zones, in France and elsewhere, where Sharia law has purportedly overtaken the law of the land, and non-Muslims are warned (forbidden?) against entering.

 

This morning I saw a post in my FB feed speaking of these areas, and how they are spreading to the U.S.  The post reeked of the paranoia of Islamaphobic ideals, and I went immediately to research and post links proving it as false.  Trouble was, I couldn't find any.  I found an abundance of references to these No-Go Zones in Europe, specifically in France, and how the same thing will happen here in the U.S., citing Dearborn Michigan as the first (obviously false), and all with extreme right wing/concealed carry advocate (odd) sources.  BUT....I found nothing countering them.

 

So, who knows about the reality of these things?  Who can point me to some credible sources defining what they are, whether/if/where they actually exist/do not exist today, and what impact they are/are not having on the surrounding communities?  I want to believe that the reports are exaggerated or fabricated, and that they are efforts of extremists <<coughHannitycough>> who oppose Islam at large, to promote and spread fear.  I want to believe that they may be looking at isolated communites where Muslims are the majority, and that they are conflating that with Sharia law must be taking over, and everyone else BEWARE!  I just can't find any credible source to support what I want to believe.  In fact, I can't seem to find any credible source either way.

 

Please educate me.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am not aware of any of that.  The only thing I've heard is that in places like France they don't allow certain religious practices under certain circumstances.  For example, children not being allowed to wear a hijab in school. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools

 

(not that wikipedia is the end all be all source)

 

There are a lot of Muslims where I live.  I know of no case where there was an issue directly related to suppressing them (that was at least a large enough incident to make the news). 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh and to add, here they do allow children to wear a hijab to school.  I've seen pictures of it.  On the other hand, they don't allow kids to have rosary beads because they are associated with gangs.  There was a case of a student who was upset about that which made the news.

 

 

[indigomama]

I am not aware of any of that.  The only thing I've heard is that in places like France they don't allow certain religious practices under certain circumstances.  For example, children not being allowed to wear a hijab in school. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools

 

(not that wikipedia is the end all be all source)

 

There are a lot of Muslims where I live.  I know of no case where there was an issue directly related to suppressing them (that was at least a large enough incident to make the news). 

 

 

I believe original poster is saying that there are reports of areas where Muslims are not allowing non-muslims in. Not that Muslims are being suppressed.

[Caroline]

I have heard mention of it on the news this week, too. I tried to find more information, but I cant. Just some passing mentions. If be interested in knowing more, too.

 

ETA: I heard mention of it in France, not the US.

[AlmiraGulch]

I am not aware of any of that.  The only thing I've heard is that in places like France they don't allow certain religious practices under certain circumstances.  For example, children not being allowed to wear a hijab in school. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools

 

(not that wikipedia is the end all be all source)

 

There are a lot of Muslims where I live.  I know of no case where there was an issue directly related to suppressing them (that was at least a large enough incident to make the news). 

 

It's actually the opposite that I'm talking about.  Places where non-Muslims are forbidden or warned against entering, and where Sharia law trumps actual law.  

[Laura Corin]

The only thing that I know of in the UK that could be blown up and misinterpreted, is that some mosques have sharia 'courts' that settle disputes within the community where no (national) law has been broken.  There was a fuss about this a while back, which died down when it was clear that none of the sharia 'court' judgements had the force of law.

 

L

[AlmiraGulch]

Again, it *is* Sharia law that "actual law" must be obeyed and upheld.

 

Yes, I heard you say this previously.  It does not, however, address the question that I posed.  

[Farrar]

But I think we all know that extremists aren't always rationally following the actual precepts of the religion they claim to be fighting for, so in that sense knowing that sharia law says you have to uphold civilian law doesn't answer the question.

 

I haven't heard of this beyond something similar to what Laura mentioned above. If no one has sources, I would assume it's untrue.

[Mergath]

This link has people discussing the origins of what you're talking about:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/mar/03/religion-islam

[Lisbeth]

In Dearborn, Michigan, in 2012, there was an incident in which Christian preachers who were having a parade (?) or demonstration, perhaps, on Father's Day, were stoned by Muslims on the sidelines, and the police refused to protect them.  The Christian group in question is controversial, but, that is not the point.  The point is the police refused to uphold the laws of the United States.

 

You could argue that when the police refuse to uphold the law because it would upset the locals, then a "no go zone" is de facto created.

 

 

[bibiche]

In Dearborn, Michigan, in 2012, there was an incident in which Christian preachers who were having a parade (?) or demonstration, perhaps, on Father's Day, were stoned by Muslims on the sidelines, and the police refused to protect them.  The Christian group in question is controversial, but, that is not the point.  The point is the police refused to uphold the laws of the United States.

 

You could argue that when the police refuse to uphold the law because it would upset the locals, then a "no go zone" is de facto created.

 

A quick google search turned up this: http://christandpopculture.com/muslims-stoning-christians-in-michigan-not-quite-updated/

Sounds a bit more complicated...

[bibiche]

And for OP: I suspect these are urban myths propagated by racist and islamophobe sites to incite fear and hate.  There are certainly "zones urbaines sensibles" in France, but I have never heard of zones that operate outside of French law.

[AlmiraGulch]

And yeah, it does address the question to an extent. Because if it Sharia law to follow all civil law, it doesn't make sense that there would be a place where there is the former but not the latter in a place where they are indeed separate.

Yes, it doesn't make sense, based on what you've said, that there would be such a place.  That does not mean that they do not exist.  

 

I didn't think they did, but that's why I'm asking for sources to prove one way or another.  

 

Gently, I believe you're seeing adversaries in some of these threads where they don't necessarily even exist.  

[AlmiraGulch]

This link has people discussing the origins of what you're talking about:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/mar/03/religion-islam

Thanks, Mergath.  This was the one thing I found in my admitedly brief search that attempted to explain the origin that was not from an uber-conservative site.  

[AlmiraGulch]

What? Because I take exception to you pointing out I hadn't answered your question to your liking? Has anyone else here answered your question to your liking, and that's why you havn't quoted everyone to tell them that what they said does not answer your OP?

 

No.  You actually didn't answer my question at all, but rather just repeated what you already said on another thread.  I don't even understand the point of it, frankly.

 

There is no "to my liking," so I don't understand what that means, either.

 

It's the tone of your posts.  You seem quite...I don't know...defensive?  Offended?  Curt, surely.  And it seems as if you're looking for people to say something negative where they are not.  

 

Feel free to continue the adversarialism, if it pleases you.  I won't engage.  There is enough of that going around  And if that is not your intent, then perhaps you should take a step back anyway and realize that that is how you are coming across.  

[CaffeineDiary]

This sure feels like a great way to promote one's prejudice into action.

 

PHASE 1: Tell all your friends "Hey, you shouldn't go to [town]  There are blacks / Muslims / Jews / Martians there, you'll be assaulted."

PHASE 2: Call Fox News and say "Hey, did you hear that [town] is a 'no-go' zone?  Everyone's talking about it!  Gosh, those blacks / Muslims / Jews / Martians are taking over our country!!"

 

This may be relevant because today Fox News described Birmingham, England, which is 65% white is "entirely Muslim" and non-whites "simply don't go in."

 

So yeah.  This is an American conservative racist hallucination.

 

[AlmiraGulch]

This sure feels like a great way to promote one's prejudice into action.

 

PHASE 1: Tell all your friends "Hey, you shouldn't go to [town]  There are blacks / Muslims / Jews / Martians there, you'll be assaulted."

PHASE 2: Call Fox News and say "Hey, did you hear that [town] is a 'no-go' zone?  Everyone's talking about it!  Gosh, those blacks / Muslims / Jews/ Martians are taking over our country!!"

 

Yep.  This is exactly what I think, too.

 

I was surprised when a Google search brings back several pages of results talking about how yessirreebob they do exist, and really nothing rebutting it, particularly since it's a term I've heard quite a bit lately.  That's why I started this thread.  Perhaps I'm just not looking in the right place?  Or, maybe my own admitedly liberal bias has me convinced that it doesn't exist when maybe it actually does. I'm just looking to be educated.  

[Guest submarines]

Anyone reads Swedish? Apparently this is a report by the Swedish police.

 

http://www.polisen.se/Aktuellt/Rapporter-och-publikationer/Rapporter/Publicerat---Nationellt/Ovriga-rapporterutredningar/Kriminella-natverk-med-stor-paverkan-i-lokalsamhallet/

 

"Swedish police have ceded control over 55 “no-go zones†to predominately Muslim criminal gangs." Is this accurate?

[AlmiraGulch]

I don't read Swedish, but based on Google Translator ( I know, not 100% reliable) it seems as if the reference is to the same types of crime-ridden areas, based on the socio-economic status of their residents, that are keeping the police from completing their duties because locals are too afraid to inform on the criminals. Reminds of old-school mafia-type stuff, but that's of course just my own interpretation. 

 

It seems as if the crimes are of one of two-tiers:  The lower-level, theft, burglary, and drug crimes being attributed to younger, disenfranchised residents, and the more organized crime of the older residents.

 

I didn't seek translation for the entire document, just the initial summary, but there was no mention of anything religious, although that's not to say it doesn't exist somewhere in the document.  

[Tsuga]

There are areas all over the world in which local police do not have the force to keep down criminal gangs, and therefore, they advise citizens to avoid those areas. These include parts of Compton, Miami, some of the suburbs in Sweden and France, and the entire country of Afghanistan.

 

In all of these instances, it is unsafe for any normal person to expect rule of law, rather than rule of the jungle, because the state does not have resources to enforce civil law.

 

In none of these instances that I have seen, is this a case of the majority of residents voting to secede from the state or national government and form religious enclave.

 

Rather, it is thugs taking over the ghetto.

 

Invariably, said thugs fight amongst themselves and are the least educated and worst behaved of their entire community, almost always young men who have discovered that this is probably their best chance at power, given that real power requires connections, skills, and a social status that they do not have and will never have. They are awful people to be around, raw to the core, and violent.

 

In many areas of Europe, the slums and ghettos and projects have a disproportionate amount of Muslim immigrants in them, because North Africa is to Europe what Mexico is to the United States and everyone (okay not everyone) wants the hell out of that corrupt hellhole (not all of it is corrupt, and not everyone leaves, just like Mexico is not one huge drug peddling route, though it may seem so in some areas).

 

Then the immigrants have kids and those kids are like, "I'm not African, I'm not European. I'm nothing to anybody, I'm a man without a country, and nobody wants me."

 

As you might imagine these young men are no fun to be around. It's like regular adolescents, but uniformly hopeless and also, cut out from the majority culture, surrounded by death and despair (the brutish ghetto) within a complex of hedonistic pleasure (increasingly rich world capitals). It's just tons of fun in the ghetto, let me tell you.

 

So yeah, there are probably majority-Muslim no-go zones, just like there are majority-Christian no-go zones in which the Church plays a HUGE role in keeping society together since everyone else has given up on them. That is actually kind of how I view parts of the South where apparently it's so unsafe grown men have to use open carry to defend themselves. Creepy.

 

But that's not the same as having Muslims take over the law. If the French invested in those young people, if the Germans let the Turks and their kids become actual citizens, religion would become less influential. It's the exclusion of those individuals into ghettos that makes the difference.

 

As for that Dearborn video, are you (impersonal you there) freaking kidding me. Watching the video literally has caused white supremacist ads to come up on my browser. Why did anyone link to that? It is a racist propaganda link. Oh my gosh. I don't even. And the debunking article is very clear and has very strong sources to back up a very clear explanation about how, once again, these are for the most part disenfranchised-feeling young people all struggling for some semblance of control in their pathetic little destinies while adults try to maintain social order.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[reign]

Just chiming In to say that Dearborn is definently not a no go zone. It is a fairly large city in our area that we visit often. It is not scary in the least. You can Not hear the call to prayer through out the city.

[Audrey]

The only thing that I know of in the UK that could be blown up and misinterpreted, is that some mosques have sharia 'courts' that settle disputes within the community where no (national) law has been broken.  There was a fuss about this a while back, which died down when it was clear that none of the sharia 'court' judgements had the force of law.

 

L

 

There was something quite similar in an area of Toronto a few years ago. 

[umsami]

Wonder if this is partially where the OP got it? From FAUX News... Error, my a##.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-30773297

 

"An American terrorism commentator speaking on Fox News has been forced to apologise for describing Birmingham as a "Muslim-only city" where non-Muslims "don't go in".

 

Steven Emerson told the channel that in London "Muslim religious police" beat "anyone who doesn't dress according to Muslim, religious Muslim attire".

He later issued an apology for his "terrible error"."

[KarenNC]

In none of these instances that I have seen, is this a case of the majority of residents voting to secede from the state or national government and form religious enclave.

 

The only religiously rather than politically oriented situation of this sort of thing I've heard of recently was the Christian Exodus movement. At one point (not quite 10 years ago) they were trying to convince people to move to South Carolina and take it over to become a separate Christian nation.

[Laura Corin]

 

"An American terrorism commentator speaking on Fox News has been forced to apologise for describing Birmingham as a "Muslim-only city" where non-Muslims "don't go in".

 

 

Interesting.  That would have made it difficult for my son to change trains there yesterday....

 

L

[Mrs Mungo]

Binip, many of the societies and areas you are discussing fall under the too many young males theory, which is largely helped along by poor health care, short life spans, disease and war:

 

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc1201/article_1034.shtml

[Melissa in Australia]

There are areas all over the world in which local police do not have the force to keep down criminal gangs, and therefore, they advise citizens to avoid those areas. These include parts of Compton, Miami, some of the suburbs in Sweden and France, and the entire country of Afghanistan.

 

In all of these instances, it is unsafe for any normal person to expect rule of law, rather than rule of the jungle, because the state does not have resources to enforce civil law.

 

 

 I was under the impression that the majority of the cities in America had no-go zones that were run by drug gangs.

[Pawz4me]

The only religiously rather than politically oriented situation of this sort of thing I've heard of recently was the Christian Exodus movement. At one point (not quite 10 years ago) they were trying to convince people to move to South Carolina and take it over to become a separate Christian nation.

 

Ooookay.

 

Can't help but wonder what they planned on doing with Myrtle Beach.  They'd probably need some massive conversion efforts there. ;)  Or maybe they'd make it its own state? Or cede it to NC?  :lol:

[FaithManor]

Ooookay.

 

Can't help but wonder what they planned on doing with Myrtle Beach. They'd probably need some massive conversion efforts there. ;) Or maybe they'd make it its own state? Or cede it to NC? :lol:

Yes, this made me snicker. Though it could have been a worse....taking over oh maybe Fort Lauderdale at Spring Break!

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's actually the opposite that I'm talking about.  Places where non-Muslims are forbidden or warned against entering, and where Sharia law trumps actual law.  

 

Oops...sorry.

[Katy]

I've never heard of anything like that.  I have heard some reports of women walking in areas of the UK and being yelled at to "cover up!" because "this is a Muslim area," to which she responded something to the effect of "This isn't a Muslim area.  This is the UK."

 

But I can't even recall who told me that, so I'm not credible at all.  :mellow:

[KarenNC]

Ooookay.

 

Can't help but wonder what they planned on doing with Myrtle Beach.  They'd probably need some massive conversion efforts there. ;)  Or maybe they'd make it its own state? Or cede it to NC?  :lol:

 

Good question! :)  The first target, IIRC, was Anderson, SC, not sure which other cities they had in mind.

[trulycrabby]

You know where I have seen a fair number of muslims? On my son's soccer team! We chat, attend each others' kids' birthday parties, commiserate about life and child rearing, play chess on the sidelines during practice, stand in the rain during games, go on soccer trips, and have a really nice time together.

[lauraw4321]

NM. Already posted.

[dirty ethel rackham]

You know where I have seen a fair number of muslims? On my son's soccer team! We chat, attend each others' kids' birthday parties, commiserate about life and child rearing, play chess on the sidelines during practice, stand in the rain during games, go on soccer trips, and have a really nice time together.

 

This made me smile.  You know where I have seen a fair number of Muslims?  In our 4-H club, which has traditionally been a homeschool only club (only by the fact that the parent leaders were homeschoolers and that we met at a homeschool but not brick and mortar school friendly time.)   This is one of the few activities for older kids that is not an SOF, "keep those types out" activity.  We even were able to peacefully do a club intercultural project on Israel/Palestine without ruffling anyone's feathers. 

 

[PeachyDoodle]

Ooookay.

 

Can't help but wonder what they planned on doing with Myrtle Beach.  They'd probably need some massive conversion efforts there. ;)  Or maybe they'd make it its own state? Or cede it to NC?  :lol:

 

I certainly hope so. I'd hate to have to get a passport for my annual vacay to Cherry Grove! :D

[Retired]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp

 

 

[chiguirre]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp

I snorted my tea when I saw the Queen's hajib!!!

 

and the jam....

[AlmiraGulch]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp

Interesting!

 

I actually checked Snopes before I ever posted here. This must be a new entry. Thanks for the link.

[AlmiraGulch]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp

Interesting!

 

I actually checked Snopes before I ever posted here. This must be a new entry. Thanks for the link.

[albeto.]

Interesting!

 

I actually checked Snopes before I ever posted here. This must be a new entry. Thanks for the link.

 

Don't tell that to Steve Emerson, self identified "internationally recognised expert on terrorism" on Fox News channel. He has declared that Birmingham is "a totally Muslim" city "where non-Muslims just simply don't go". Buzzfeed has the proof (in the form of Twitter-as-evidence! too funny!).

[KarenNC]

Ooookay.

 

Can't help but wonder what they planned on doing with Myrtle Beach.  They'd probably need some massive conversion efforts there. ;)  Or maybe they'd make it its own state? Or cede it to NC?  :lol:

 

After this, I had to laugh when I received an email this morning from a homeschool group advertising a big 5 day creationism conference at Myrtle Beach this summer.