Spelling 911!!! Help! 6th grader spells like Ker!!!

[Sue G in PA]

I am about to give up. Seriously. Just give up. I haven't been on the forums in quite a while but I am desperate for help. I probably even asked this question once before (re: the same child!). We've been working with my 6th grader who has been a struggling reader and is still not quite on grade level. He has made tremendous progress but still not quite "there" yet. For years we didn't really do a formal spelling program b/c of the reading issues. He can memorize words for a test but when it comes to actually putting those words into practice, he forgets basic rules! And let's not even talk about proper grammar or sentence structure, etc.  Again, he can et answers right in his assignments but when it comes to writing, it is like he doesn't realize that all of those rules that he learned...should actually be applied!!!! I am embarrassed to even share this (it is humiliating) but this is what he just wrote in an email asking for help in a computer programming class he is in:

 

wy is my minecraft keep crashing wan i fics the errers

 

:crying:  :crying:  :crying:

 

Please help! Where do I even begin? I don't have a ton of money to put into plugging up this "hole". I can't afford the really expensive programs. It's obvious he needs to go back to the beginning and re-learn his phonemes. But honestly, we've been down that road so many times and he just FORGETS or simply doesn't use the "rules". :( I purchased Dianne Craft's Right Brained Phoneme cards hoping that might help. We don't even bother with spelling "workbooks", we just take the words and copy them with colored marker or something to made that transition btwn left and right brain. Ugh. I'm just at my wits end. I am in tears. :(

[EKS]

I know it's expensive, but AAS sounds like what you need. I used it with a 13yo and it helped tremendously.

[Cheryl in CA]

If rules based programs don't work for him, perhaps he would benefit from Apples and Pears.  It's the only thing that really helped my son.

[Chelli]

Apples and Pears

 

It really is a miracle worker. At least for my kid it was.

[Tanaqui]

Before I started posting here, I read here. Best advice I have ever received on any subject was the aforementioned Apples and Pears - and you can try it out free on their website before you buy it. If you really need to save money, I might be able to send you our teacher's guide for book A. I have no idea how it works, but it really did seem to have an effect.

[Sue G in PA]

Tell me about Apples and Pears and what is so unique? Thanks!

[Lots of boys]

My ds in gr. 5 would spell that sentence in a very similar way. I had my ds tested at a NP a year ago and he tested in the 1st pecentile for spelling - yikes! He is very 2E with scores off the charts in other areas.

 

I have used AAS for years with him but he is still struggling. He is making progress but it is slow. I have recently bought Apples and Pears and plan to start it next week with him as well. Good Luck!

[Chelli]

Tell me about Apples and Pears and what is so unique? Thanks!

 

Here's my review of it: http://www.theplantedtrees.com/2013/01/virtual-curriculum-fair-2013-apples-and.html

 

Let me know if you have any more questions and I'll be happy to answer. It's just so totally different than any other spelling program I've ever seen or used that it's difficult to wrap your head around until you actually start using it.

[Kiara.I]

Has he had a good assessment done?  Does he have any vision problems?

[Sue G in PA]

He has had vision checked, but not vision "tracking". His reading IS improving. In reading Dianne Craft's Right Brain materials, he has nearly every single issue she mentions. :( I also can't afford all her material and do not have the time to implement her program at home. So we do what we can. I just didn't realize his spelling was so bad. Where would I order Apples and Pears?

[Cheryl in CA]

Here is the US Shop.  It is a British program, so there are some British words (like "torch" instead of "flashlight").  The author purposely avoided British spelling patterns in Books A-C, and when they do appear in Book D there are only a few so they are easy to work around.  She is eventually going to make a US version of Book D, but (when I emailed her about it around 3 months ago) she said it was pretty far down on her to do list.

 

Edited to add the link, LOL.

http://www.prometheantrust.org/usshop.htm

[FO4UR]

If you've already done the Phonogram route, please don't merely try another O-G/Spalding program.  If 5 didn't work, neither will the 6th.

 

 

I 2nd Apples & Pears.  http://www.soundfoundationsbooks.co.uk/ Make sure to order from the USA store if in the USA.  It's still a phonetic program, but it majors on *VISUALIZATION* rather than logical thinking ala rules.  They still learn the rules, but the application is visualization over and over and over again.  Works very well.

 

 

 

If A&P is too much $, try the old 1919 Pearson spelling lessons.  I have been reformatting them for my dc, and would be happy to share with you how I use them.  Just PM me.  I still use A&P with my NT kiddo, but my severe dyslexic is doing 1000x better with Pearson. My 8yo "doesn't know he's dyslexic" is doing well with Pearson too. 

[73349]

A co-worker of mine (teaching middle school) used to say, "There is no such thing as an academic emergency." You might like to tape that to your teacher's manual, whatever spelling program you wind up using. (I do think A & P looks good.)

 

The errors in the sample you showed us do indicate an awareness of phonics rules, so that's a good start. It does not look like a kindergartner wrote it, unless a pretty advanced one. It wouldn't bother me to see a second-grader at that point.

 

One of the things that makes a good speller is having seen the words thousands of times while reading. Of course a child who has been struggling with reading is going to be behind in spelling. If you can encourage him to read--even fairly easy materials that will include common words--just a bit more each day, that should also help.

[Soror]

I'd add to the Apples and Pears recommendation, I'd concur that I wouldn't look at another rules based spelling program.

 

I'd add a vote to looking for an evaluation, not just vision but a full educational evaluation. It sounds like he has some significant struggles, knowing exactly what is wrong can help you as a teacher, help his self-esteem because then he will know *why* he has these struggles and will help him succeed in the future. These days there is so many accomodations at college for these with different struggles but you cannot get them without an evaluation. It is great because of these things kids that previously had no shot can now go to college and go and do well.

 

eta- HUGS- and no need to be embarassed, anyone who would look down at you or him for his struggles is ignorant and/or insensitive, forget about them.

[Sue G in PA]

Apples and Pears seems to be the same sort of philosophy as Sequential Spelling. Patterns instead of rules. Is this correct? It seems like it might work for him. The "visualization" part is something that Dianne Craft talks a lot about in working with kids like my son. For the kids who don't do well with the rules-based programs like the O-G.  Thanks. I will check out A & P and give him the assessment/placement test. 

 

[Ellie]

Spalding. For less than $50, you will have a comprehensive "language arts" course that includes reading, spelling, penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, and simple writing. It would be all you'd need, forever.

[sixpence1978]

I would also recommend A&P.  We are almost done with Book C.  It's boring overall and a lot of writing, but it really does work wonders.  It is pattern based to an extent, but it also goes over sounds too.  I wouldn't really compare it to Sequential Spelling.  The main concept behind A&P is overlearning...keep practicing until it becomes automatic.  Rules-based failed here as well (moderate dyslexia).  The word-building and word-deconstructing practice have also really helped my DD read longer words.  It's a great program.  Most people do about 1/3-1/2 of a "level" each day.

[Sue G in PA]

Ellie, we have tried Spalding. It is what I really WANTED to do but it was like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole w/ my son. :(  Could be "user error" but truly he does not "recall" the phonemes. He haphazardly guesses. For different sounds like "ea, ee" he cannot remember which to use for which word.  Same with "ai, ay" or all the different "er" sounds.  I started taking his normal spelling words and trying to somehow draw pictures around each particular phoneme to help him (ala Dianne Craft) and that helps a little. But I can't draw pictures for every blessed word, lol!  It is VERY time consuming.  

[...................]

Apples and Pears! It's working miracles for my dd. it's not expensive either. She just jumped one entire grade level in the past 6 months and her handwriting and focus has Improved overall. So this year she will go from being worse than 2nd grade level Soelling to end of 4th grade level, and yes she is applying it outside the spelling book.

 

I don't expect her to ever be a great speller but at least she can get her point across now and the spellcheck will know what she is trying for as well. :)

[zarabellesmom]

I would also recommend A&P.  We are almost done with Book C.  It's boring overall and a lot of writing, but it really does work wonders.  It is pattern based to an extent, but it also goes over sounds too.  I wouldn't really compare it to Sequential Spelling.  The main concept behind A&P is overlearning...keep practicing until it becomes automatic.  Rules-based failed here as well (moderate dyslexia).  The word-building and word-deconstructing practice have also really helped my DD read longer words.  It's a great program.  Most people do about 1/3-1/2 of a "level" each day.

 

I wouldn't compare it to Sequential Spelling either (though I liked that too). Apples and Pears is really working here when nothing else has either. It is a lot of writing, but I think that's probably one of the reasons it works. I wouldn't call it mindless repetition, because it seems very purposeful, but it is a lot of writing. Some people do break it up as sixpence says. We do not. We tackle one full lesson a day five days a week and my poor speller's ability is really improving.

[sbgrace]

I was going to recommend Apples and Pears as well. My son really knew all the phonograms and rules, but it didn't help him spell. He just didn't have a visual memory for words, and the spelling rules won't help you if that's your issue. Apples and Pears has made such a difference for him.

[EKS]

I should also mention that my son (now 18yo) claims that the thing that really helped his spelling more than anything was using a word processor for all written work with the spellchecker set to underline misspelled words.  

[...................]

Sequential Spelling really worked for my son.  He is Visual Spatial and also had a lot of letter reversals but no dyslexia - no dyslexia of thought, reading, or in daily life.  He just couldn't memorize the words.  So two years of Sequential Spelling set him on the correct path at least to function in spelling.

 

My dd and I tried SS last year and it brought her to tears over and over.  She would feel so overwhelmed by the long lists, and I would feel frustrated about her inability to focus and problems spelling and then she would take forever erasing and it was a horrible exercise in patience for both of us, and it wasn't working.  We made it about halfway through the book.  I knew that this was not "the" program for her/us.

 

So I looked into LOE, but I knew that all those rules would bog us down.

 

She does an entire level of Apples and Pears each day, because she is 10-11 this year and can handle that.  It's a little long for her but she is OK, she's not in tears and in fact she is VERY VERY proud of the fact that she passed the test in Book A.  She wanted me to take a picture of her and the test and the books.  

 

I think it may be worth the try.

[FO4UR]

There are several things that set Apples & Pears apart from other programs.

 

 

#1 - It works on visualization. It's not drawing pictures like the Diane Craft stuff either. It's very CM if you are familiar with the way she taught spelling.

 

#2 - It teaches morphemic patterns as well as the phonograms & rules.  The word sums (bake + ing = baking) work.so.efficiently!  

 

#3 - It builds up to sentence dictations in every lesson. Words that are applied are words that are learned.  Apples & Pears DRIVES it home with those sentence dictations. Every word done in Apples & Pears has been thoroughly learned.  (My severe dyslexic simply can't keep the pace. Pearson goes slower.)

 

#4 - It teaches the most common words with the end goal of prepping kids for academic writing.  Tricky words are spiral reviewed through mastery.

 

#5 - It's 100% scripted and the wb are laid out clearly.  No prep work whatsoever!

 

 

[RootAnn]

One of the things that makes a good speller is having seen the words thousands of times while reading. Of course a child who has been struggling with reading is going to be behind in spelling. If you can encourage him to read--even fairly easy materials that will include common words--just a bit more each day, that should also help.

 

I can't agree with this whole-heartedly. This only works for spelling if the kid has a good visual memory. Several of my kids have very low visual memories (known because I work with them daily & confirmed via testing). Thousands of repetitions eventually helped them become better readers, but their spelling can remain atrocious. I am an avid reader and my spelling has always been worse than my older sister's. She has a great visual memory and can 'picture' the word. It doesn't matter how many times I've seen it, I can't picture it in my mind. I have to reason my way through how to spell words like knowledgeable and atrocious and vicissitude.  (And I spelled that last one wrong, but it was close enough that spell checker knew what I was trying for.) 

[...................]

My dd reads about 500 pages per day with excellent comprehension and she can't spell at all. It just doesn't help some kids.

[Cheryl in CA]

My dd reads about 500 pages per day with excellent comprehension and she can't spell at all. It just doesn't help some kids.

 

This was my ds as well.  He has always read a lot and way above grade level, but his spelling...not, LOL!  He is still far from the best speller, but A&P helped a lot and was the only one we tried that really helped at all.  I tried a lot of very good curricula and still have some of them (like AAS, which I will likely use with other children).  They just weren't good for him.

[Soror]

My ds is a voracious reader and actually has a pretty good visual memory, his visual memory is the only thing that helps him spell as well as he does spell, as he doesn't remember any rules. It is still a struggle with him on some things though, it just won't stay in his head. His reading definitely does help though, on the other hand I remember rules but my visual memory is not near as strong as ds and spelling has generally been an easier subject for me. Ds most certainly reads way more than I ever did though.

[73349]

I don't remember how long words look, either. But there's a difference between working out atrocious or ventriloquist one syllable at a time and remembering why and when through seeing them literally 10,000+ times.

If a child is only reading at a 2nd- or 3rd-grade reading level, s/he just may not have had the word count to cement the short words. Some kids will also need them as spelling words, but having had something in a spelling list and then not seeing it again very often makes it unlikely that the person will remember the word without a trick--and it's the longer words that lend themselves to memory tricks.

[...................]

I don't remember how long words look, either. But there's a difference between working out atrocious or ventriloquist one syllable at a time and remembering why and when through seeing them literally 10,000+ times.

If a child is only reading at a 2nd- or 3rd-grade reading level, s/he just may not have had the word count to cement the short words. Some kids will also need them as spelling words, but having had something in a spelling list and then not seeing it again very often makes it unlikely that the person will remember the word without a trick--and it's the longer words that lend themselves to memory tricks.

 

No...not really.

 

My dd reads at about a 7th grade level and has read something like, for real, I would say, 400 full length novels and she reads literally 500 pages per day sometimes.  (That is not hyperbole) and yet before Apples and Pears (only 5 months ago!) those two exact words were some of the ones she could not spell.  "Why," "When," even "of" and "off."  etc. easy, simple, first or second grade words that we taught, practiced, tested and that she saw thousands of times in her reading.  :o)

 

I understand that you want to be a champion for reading more and of course we all agree with you but IMO for true struggling spellers there is no correlation.

[73349]

I understand that you want to be a champion for reading more and of course we all agree with you but IMO for true struggling spellers there is no correlation.

 

That's clearly true for some kids, but I don't think you can tell yet with one who's just gotten the hang of reading, which is what I understood the OP to be talking about.

 

In any case, there is no harm in doing Apples and Pears!

[FO4UR]

I can't agree with this whole-heartedly. This only works for spelling if the kid has a good visual memory. Several of my kids have very low visual memories (known because I work with them daily & confirmed via testing). Thousands of repetitions eventually helped them become better readers, but their spelling can remain atrocious. I am an avid reader and my spelling has always been worse than my older sister's. She has a great visual memory and can 'picture' the word. It doesn't matter how many times I've seen it, I can't picture it in my mind. I have to reason my way through how to spell words like knowledgeable and atrocious and vicissitude.  (And I spelled that last one wrong, but it was close enough that spell checker knew what I was trying for.) 

 

 

Agree.  Some kids will learn 75% of spelling by simply reading.  Some just are not naturally able to visualize the words.

 

 

 

A&P techniques (those that mirror CM techniques) explicitly teach visualization.  This is why A&P works for kids who don't jump into great spelling via Spalding.  Spalding teaches phonics, but it doesn't train the eye.  A&P trains the eye.