Science only works with Math?

[Arcadia]

Yikes, I am clueless about scientific notation! What is it and where do I find it online?

It would be a topic in his physics and his chemistry textbooks together with significant figures.

 

Your integrated science is spread over four years vs the American system of doing one science a year. You would need trigonometry for physics, log and exponents for physics and chemistry.

You have year 9 and 10 to get his math foundation solidified so there is less rush than in the U.S.

[regentrude]

It would be a topic in his physics and his chemistry textbooks together with significant figures.

 

And scientific notation should also have been covered in prealgebra when exponents are introduced.

[Tsuga]

I don't know any statisticians marching into science. I do know many scientists who go back to school to struggle to cope with the volume of data they are dealing with as the tools used to process data advance. These are the biostatisticians. Those who cannot adapt to the volume of data fall behind.

 

[Dicentra]

fluffybunny, given you are in Australia, are you doing a Feb to Dec school year?  If so, are you doing chemistry for the 2015 school year?  Sounds like you have already started which is why I am confused.

 

The IGCSE Chemistry put out by CIE (Cambridge International Exams) has a textbook for a 5th former (10th grade america, year 11 NZ, not sure about australia).  It has the 'core' materials and the 'supplemental' materials, and there are 2 different exams you can go for.  I tell you this, because the 'core' material has NO math in it -- I'm holding the textbook. Topics include: nature of matter, elements and compounds, chemical reactions, acids and bases and salts, patterns and properties of metals, industrial inorganic chemistry, organic chemisry, petrochemicals and polymers, and chemical analysis and investigation.  The 'supplemental' material includes the harder material in each chapter and 2 additional chapters: quantitative chemistry and how far, how fast?  The Cambridge exams are incredibly well respected and lead to the A levels.  And you could easily up your game by doing the 'core' material of this textbook as an acceptable high school chemistry course and not have to worry about any math yet.

 

http://www.bookdepository.com/Cambridge-Igcse-Chemistry-Coursebook-with-CD-ROM-Richard-Harwood/9781107615038

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

(just to note: I think it is a year 10 book in the australian system because you finish in year 12. So I'm going to write the rest of this in Australian  :001_smile: )

 

Well, the Cambridge system has 3 years of each subject - year 10(IGCSE), year 11 (AS), and year 12 (A levels).  So if you wanted to get to the A-levels in Chemistry, you would have to master the supplemental year 10 material in year 11, which would make year 11 more difficult.  But by having 'core' material that is easier, it allows kids the chance to dabble in many subjects without fear of failure.  Plus,  the year 10 'core' chemistry is NOT easy.  You still have to memorize a ton of equations and interactions and use them in a synergistic, problem-solving way to answer tricky questions.  There is just no maths.  :001_smile: I would also assume that kids going into a STEM field would do the supplemental-material exam, and humanities-types would do the core-material exam.  But if your son is not ready for the maths, but has the interest, it is an option for a conceptual highschool chemistry course that is legitimate.

 

Also, not sure about how Australia works, but in NZ the year your son is in is not a testing year, so you don't have to do any real courses.  This is different than in America where the transcript is built for the last 4 years of high school.  So in America, you might only take 1 year of chemistry in your entire high school career, where as in NZ you take integrated science in your year 9 and 10 (both years together cover level 1 in chem, phys, bio) and then level 2 and level 3 in years 11& 12.  This can happen because kids here specialize earlier so don't have all the core class requirements that they do in the USA (so no history if you are STEM etc).  So the Americans here may be worried that your chemistry class is not enough for the ONE chemistry class you would take in a US high school (sometimes they take 2, but never 3). But if Australia works more like NZ, your ds has more years to cover the material. Does that make sense?

 

I think you may need to get an Australian point of view on this issue.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

I didn't realize that fluffybunny was from Australia.  My apologies!

 

That's interesting, Ruth.  I didn't realize that Australia and NZ had integrated science for Grades 9 and 10.  We do here in Ontario, Canada as well. :)  Those are mandatory for graduation for all students.  Students also need at least one Grade 11 science - either Bio, Chem, Physics, or Environmental Science - to graduate.  All those subjects (plus Geology) are also offered as Grade 12 credits which would continue on from where the Grade 11 course left off.  Most students who go on to take the Grade 12 credits in those areas would be students who plan on continuing on in a STEM direction.

 

When I answered that I felt that a high school chem class needed a math component to be considered a true high school course, it was coming from a Canadian perspective, not an American one. :)  If fluffybunny is talking about an integrated science credit for Grades 9 or 10, that would be different than a chem credit.  My apologies - I think I misunderstood what she was asking about. :)

 

It's interesting to see the differences in science education in the different countries. :)

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I found that chemistry helps to solidify the algebra that had already been taught.  There are some aspects of algebra that can be taught THROUGH chemistry, but that would take a very skillful teacher who knows both subjects quite well.  AFAIK there is no standard curriculum that approaches it this way.  Either curricula avoid the need for algebra, like Real Science 4 Kids or Conceptual Chemistry, or assume that algebra has already been taught reasonably well. 

 

OTOH, I have heard that the The Learning Company's older first edition chemistry course teaches the math of chemistry very well, although it is not a stand alone chemistry course.  If you can find one used, it might be worth a look.  I have not used it myself, but the currently available second edition sounds considerably more complicated albeit less than a full chemistry class--so too much material to be a true supplement, but too little to be a true class.

 

Lastly, your DS does not have to love math.  He can hate math all day long and still be an excellent scientist.  He just needs to be able to do math.  You don't have to love your shovel to do gardening.  You just have to be willing and able to use it.  I applaud your preservation of your DS's love of the sciences, and encourage you to keep on with the tutoring so that he can excel in math.  I also encourage you to talk with the tutor about making a plan so that he can complete AT LEAST precalculus and preferably a year of calculus during high school.  Some calculus in high school has become more the norm for STEM college students, although it is not a requirement.

[Mom22ns]

Yikes, I am clueless about scientific notation! What is it and where do I find it online? Thanks

 

Scientific notation is well covered in lesson 32 of MUS Algebra. You're ok there :).

 

BTW, I think it is absolutely cool that NZ boardies have jumped in here to help. We American's can give some spectacularly bad advice to those in different educational systems!

[Julie in MN]

Unfortunately, I also know they have been surrounded by kids who had same aspirations who have been forced to change majors due to their math skills. Math skills are really the tipping point.)

 

This I think is where the concern on the thread comes from -- so MANY kids go into engineering and sciences and drop out. 

 

I would say that not only are math "skills" important but math "endurance" is critical for success in college.  MUS is nice and gentle, but by about 8th grade I think kids have to begin to get used to working HARD in math for at least an hour per day, just on their homework and not including the teaching lesson or tutoring.  I have never seen a kid go into this with a smile, but I have seen kids come out thankful. 

 

I'm not in Australia, but I don't have a problem with light science in 9th grade at all -- most of our local public schools (admittedly not all are high quality but some are) do a light science for most 9th graders because they find students just aren't ready for more.  Spend the extra time on working hard in math.

 

Then in 10th, I think Biology is a nice ramp-up, with intense vocabulary but no math.  By 11th & 12th, I think kids should be exposed to serious science just to prevent culture shock in college and to expose them to the joys of how very much can be explored.

 

However, I have known a few homeschoolers who did very little science at home and caught up in college, whether in nursing or in the sciences.  It often costed more, because of the extra courses they needed, and it required a certain drive or ability to work hard, but it can be done, I've seen it happen.

 

Julie

[Dicentra]

This is not "rigor" discussion. It is an essential skill discussion. Would it matter if he wanted to be a history or literature major? No. But for a physics or chemistry major, MUS will gap their skill set. Not a problem if they can make the leap on their own. But kids that need to be taught (or parents who want to ensure their kids have a foundation without gaps) will be better served by strengthening their math skills in math class or it lead may to the scenario where the student reaches pre-cal "equationally" without the equivalent "application ability."

 

I can't comment on MUS - I'm not that familiar with the program.  You make a very valid point about essential skills, though, 8, and it's one that I've often wondered about.

 

Why is it that there is a belief out there that students can do physics or chem without a math component at the high school level and it's still OK to go ahead and call it true senior high school level science?  On the flip side, I've never seen anyone argue that a student could complete a literature course without a writing component at the high school level and think that it's OK to call it a true senior high school level language arts course.  Math is as essential to high school level science (at least for chem and physics) as writing is to high school level literature.  I know there were probably a few people upset with me when I listed a few chem programs in the pinned thread as more appropriate for junior high but I can't agree that a chem course without a math component is high school level.  Even the chem course offered in Ontario that's meant for students who are not university bound still has a math component.  The math isn't as difficult as what's in the university-prep chem course, but there's still a math component.

 

To clarify - this is a bit of a rabbit trail post and I apologize to the OP if we're derailing her thread. :)  I know now that she was talking about an integrated science program for a 9th or 10th grade student, not a stand-alone high school chem course.  From what I saw of the Chem 101 site she posted, it would be a good addition to an integrated science course along with a physics component and a bio component.  If her son wants to take something like Apologia chem in another year when his math skills are a bit stronger, I think that's a great plan.  If Australia is like Ontario, students will take multiple science credits in each of their Grade 11 and 12 years - it isn't just one science per year like it is in the States.

[Dicentra]

I found that chemistry helps to solidify the algebra that had already been taught.  There are some aspects of algebra that can be taught THROUGH chemistry, but that would take a very skillful teacher who knows both subjects quite well.  AFAIK there is no standard curriculum that approaches it this way.  Either curricula avoid the need for algebra, like Real Science 4 Kids or Conceptual Chemistry, or assume that algebra has already been taught reasonably well. 

 

 

That's how I end up teaching chemistry but it's come about by necessity.  So many students come into Grade 11 or 12 Chem (or even into the college chem that I'm teaching now) with virtually no algebra skills that I end up teaching both chem and algebra simultaneously.  It's a hard slog for those students - the abstract-ness of chemistry can be difficult enough without also having to struggle with the math.

[Pegs]

If Australia is like Ontario, students will take multiple science credits in each of their Grade 11 and 12 years - it isn't just one science per year like it is in the States.

Just to complicate things, we actually don't have any compulsory science in years 11 and 12. But students *may* take multiple science subjects, sure! Mathematics in Australian schools is integrated, and all the mathematics required for year 11 and 12 science subjects is taught before the end of year 10*. Students planning on studying science at university will generally take the maths subject/s which will appropriately prepare them for this, but technically it is not necessary to study mathematics past year 10 (it would just be weird not to, if interested in science). Clear as mud? ;)

 

 

* I actually skipped most of year 10, and went straight from year 9 maths and science to year 11 maths, physics, chem. The gaps I had were negligible. I'd not missed any information - only practice. That's how repetitive and incremental mathematics is here. IME it's basically the same thing every year, only a little harder.

[lewelma]

My main concern is the disconnect between using an American math program for a kid destined for an Australian brick and mortar school.

 

Fluffybunny, I think that you need to seriously consider getting an Australian textbook for years 9 and 10 and making sure to cover that material.  I have seen MUS and know kids who have used it here, and it makes a mess when they switch to the NZ maths curriculum in year 11 (pretty typical for homeschoolers to switch to correspondence school in year 11 so this happens a lot). They have not covered statistics or probability or any of the discrete maths.  Also, I'm a maths tutor and I know for a fact that MUS's coverage of the algebra material would only get you an 'achieve' in the year 10 maths exam; not a merit or excellence.  You just have not covered the material in a difficult enough manner.  You could pass, but that is it.  The Americans are right that the word problem coverage is way too easy.

 

Your tutor may have forgotten what level of maths is covered in year 9.  She may be thinking that MUS is at the perfect level for your ds and therefore is covering the material well.  And this might be true, but she needs to see a year 9 australian maths textbook to make a proper determination as to how your ds is progressing for his age.  I would think that you could get one at your library or for cheap second hand.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

[Dicentra]

Just to complicate things, we actually don't have any compulsory science in years 11 and 12. But students *may* take multiple science subjects, sure! Mathematics in Australian schools is integrated, and all the mathematics required for year 11 and 12 science subjects is taught before the end of year 10*. Students planning on studying science at university will generally take the maths subject/s which will appropriately prepare them for this, but technically it is not necessary to study mathematics past year 10 (it would just be weird not to, if interested in science). Clear as mud? ;)

 

 

* I actually skipped most of year 10, and went straight from year 9 maths and science to year 11 maths, physics, chem. The gaps I had were negligible. I'd not missed any information - only practice. That's how repetitive and incremental mathematics is here. IME it's basically the same thing every year, only a little harder.

 

We've got integrated math in high school here in Ontario, as well. :)  The only math topic that is separated out and given its own course is Calculus.  It's required (or, at least, it used to be) that students who are planning on going into math or science at university would have taken Calculus in high school.

 

I do know that the Ministry of Education has "lightened" many of the math and science courses here over the last few years when they've done revisions of the curriculum.  It makes me sad. :(  They no longer teach geometric proofs in any math course - too many students did poorly on that topic so they removed it.  Sigh. :(  They might as well take the bar and bury it underground - it can't drop much lower...

[Pegs]

I do know that the Ministry of Education has "lightened" many of the math and science courses here over the last few years when they've done revisions of the curriculum. It makes me sad. :( They no longer teach geometric proofs in any math course - too many students did poorly on that topic so they removed it. Sigh. :( They might as well take the bar and bury it underground - it can't drop much lower...

That's so sad, I can't even bring myself to *like* it!

[Tsuga]

What is geometry without proofs?

[fluffybunny]

I found that chemistry helps to solidify the algebra that had already been taught.

 

 

Wow, that's a very interesting perspective. 

 

 

There are some aspects of algebra that can be taught THROUGH chemistry, but that would take a very skillful teacher who knows both subjects quite well.

 

 

Hmmm, I think I'll need another tutor.  :001_unsure:

[fluffybunny]

My main concern is the disconnect between using an American math program for a kid destined for an Australian brick and mortar school.

 

Fluffybunny, I think that you need to seriously consider getting an Australian textbook for years 9 and 10 and making sure to cover that material.  I have seen MUS and know kids who have used it here, and it makes a mess when they switch to the NZ maths curriculum in year 11 (pretty typical for homeschoolers to switch to correspondence school in year 11 so this happens a lot). They have not covered statistics or probability or any of the discrete maths.  Also, I'm a maths tutor and I know for a fact that MUS's coverage of the algebra material would only get you an 'achieve' in the year 10 maths exam; not a merit or excellence.  You just have not covered the material in a difficult enough manner.  You could pass, but that is it.  The Americans are right that the word problem coverage is way too easy.

 

Your tutor may have forgotten what level of maths is covered in year 9.  She may be thinking that MUS is at the perfect level for your ds and therefore is covering the material well.  And this might be true, but she needs to see a year 9 australian maths textbook to make a proper determination as to how your ds is progressing for his age.  I would think that you could get one at your library or for cheap second hand.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Ruth, is that the MUS Australian Version though? It's called Maths Australia here, http://www.mathsaustralia.com.au/  and they have fitted it to the ANC: http://www.mathsaustralia.com.au/acara/. We also do the 'Honours' books, which is word problems. Perhaps we're all talking about a different MUS all along??? Which is why I'm baffled when our tutor raves about it when I compare her response to Americans' on here? 

 

MATHS AUSTRALIA is responding to the resounding call for a practical, multisensory, adaptable and personalized Maths Education programme that achieves real results in terms of maths mastery for our Australian students.

Our Australian Metric Edition of the “Math-U-See†programme has been comprehensively reviewed and documented by professional Australian educators so that you can clearly identify where each level of our tuition complies with the ACARA curriculum guidelines.

You will notice in the following tables that “Math-U-See†teaches some concepts earlier than they are scheduled by ACARA, some concepts overlap, and others are addressed later than the ACARA scheduling. Because we actively choose to work in our logical, sequential mode, our  programme won’t always strictly comply on a year-by-year basis with the ACARA guidelines.

We see this as a benefit to our students, as they apply real maths concepts and practices in auditory, visual and kinaesthetic modes and progress through our learning levels. Mastery in one foundational area is achieved before progressing to the next.

We are in the midst of completing reviews of each level and as the relevant compliance and development documentation becomes available we will post it on our website.

[Dicentra]

What is geometry without proofs?

 

Apparently, this:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/secondary/math910curr.pdf

We have integrated math for most of high school in Ontario - the above is the curriculum document for Grades 9 and 10 math.  If you go to p.34 in the document, you'll see the description of what Grade 9 Academic (university bound) students do for "Analytic Geometry".  On p. 36 are the expectations for "Measurement and Geometry".  If you go to p.49, it give the expectations for Grade 10 Academic students for "Analytic Geometry".

 

Here's the document for Grade 11 and 12 math:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/secondary/math1112currb.pdf

If you go to p.108, you'll see the expectations for "Geometry and Algebra of Vectors" in the Grade 12 Calculus course.  As far as I can tell, those are all the mentions of geometry in the high school math documents.  There are a few "baby proofs" in the 9 and 10 courses but no use of theorems or two-column proofs.  This is NOT the way math used to be in Ontario.  I distinctly remember having to do lengthy geometric proofs in Grade 10 math.

 

This is one of the reasons why I chose to homeschool.

[Lawyer&Mom]

I also found that high school science helped solidify my high school math.  I did algebra based physics and it really helped my algebra.  The formula for a parabola is a lot more meaningful when you think of it as the path a ball takes when you throw it up in the air.  Science can make abstract math more tangible, and more fun.  I would look forward to math based science as an opportunity to finally put math to use.

 

I also never really understood calculus until I took microeconomics, so maybe I'm just an applied math kind of person.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I am not in NZ, but my son right now is finishing up Apologia Chem.  It is one of the lightest chemistry curriculum's I have seen for high school.  All of the experiments are basic kitchen chemistry; no chemicals are even used. The math is PreAlgebra level.  It is definitely not Algebra II level.  Just a lot of exponents, decimals, and conversions. No logs or anything of that nature at all. The molecular geometry is done with Lewis Dot structures, no 3d stuff or even graphing.  In fact it has so well solidified my son's PreA stuff that it was fantastic to pair with the PreA text last year.

 

The issue with Apologia is that you do not get stacks of problems.  You get maybe 5 in a given area and that includes everything from the examples all the way through On Your Own Problems, the review, and the test.  You are asked to apply the information after only one or two views of how it works.  This is fantastic for my son.  He hates repetition.  However, it has had me look up a few other places and to write a few of my own problems on numerous occasions just so that I can be sure he gets the concept.  If you do not have a strong background, and your son is not into math application, this is probably not a text for you.  It flat out assumes that a student can move through the mathematics and apply the concepts of multiple different levels with slim to no practice.  So in one problem your son might be asked to use conversions from grams to kilograms, convert atomic mass units, and quantify the mass of a molecule.  None of those actions are hard (simple decimals, addition, and a bit of multiplying), but it is not baby stepped.  It asks you to do that after only one or two problems with conversions, one problem on amu's, and one problem on molecular mass.  All the concepts are explained separately.  The student is expected to know enough to combine them.  The student is expected to chain the knowledge together.

I do not say this to freak you out.  I say this because it is a very important part of the text.  If your son is going to need practice, you need to find another book.  If you cannot instruct him on what the problems are asking him to apply, you need to find another book.  Regardless of whether he likes repetition or not, you need to be honest about whether he needs it. Apologia is on the extreme far end of "slim to no problems."  There are plenty of texts with more middle ground between stacks of repetition, and something with this few.

 

That said, it is a really good light Chem book.  It is conceptual.  It does explain in a very approachable, conversational tone.  It does give a very skin deep, surface level, intro look at chemistry, but what it discusses it discusses well.  I am sure it would prepare a student for a Chem 101 class at a community college.  It would even probably work for the first semester at a university as long as the student really was willing to study.

 

I know there are some on the boards to disagree - Much like your tutor feeling that MUS is wondrous.  I am far more in the camp of others here voicing that it is remarkably light for the titles they give the courses and usually runs a full year or two behind what they list.  It is great for visual thinkers.  It is a great intro.  I do not feel it is strong.  In my opinion, Apologia is right there with it.  It is advanced middle school/Pre high school level.

[8filltheheart]

Fluffybunny, I doubt it is any different. The program here has the "honors" problems as well.

 

EoO, I found your assessment of Apologia chem interesting. I don't use Apologia anymore, but my oldest 2 sons did. They used it with an actual chemistry teacher. She supplemented it so much that the folder with the supplements was actually thicker than the book.

[Deee]

I haven't read everything (cos its midnight here) but I will give you the point of view of an Australian scientist (molecular biology then epidemiology) with a child the same age who is also showing strong STEM leanings.

 

Basically, I agree with Ruth: you need to shift to an Australian curriculum. Before I remembered that you were an Aussie I was thinking that this thread nicely highlighted the flaws in the US system of non-integrated maths and science. Don't buy into this flawed system just cos the Americans produce most of the homeschool resources! Ours are better and will equip him for an Australian Uni. Think of what you'll save in shipping!!!!!!! And he won't feel so behind. You can basically do the conceptual, exploratory stuff early in year 9 while he catches up with algebra and meets trig for the first time, do a bit of physics with formulae in term 4, then hit biology in term 1 of yr 10 and be good to go with physics and chem from term 2. Ditch Apologia and get a used copy of Science Focus or similar. Its not lovely, but it will work. You can supplement with books from the library or stuff from the web, but make sure you hit the basics. Get the homework book for more problems to solve. Do some lab work and use the stats he's learned in maths. Put MUS away and get a copy of Insight Maths, Connections, Maths in Focus or Understanding Yr 9 and 10 Maths (Marlin), and get him up to date with an integrated system that will keep his maths fresh and keep pace with the science curriculum its designed to complement. If you need more maths explanations, try the UK's MEP but cherry pick the lessons to mirror the Aust Curriculum (Marlin is useful to see what you should cover). Aim for advanced maths in yrs 9 and 10 (now called 5.3 in NSW). That will set him up for extension maths in year 11 and 12.

 

If he gets to uni and he doesn't have the equivalent of year 12 chemistry and extension (old 3 unit) maths he will be shut out of several classes. Chemistry is a pre-requisite for most chem and biology courses. If he has no physics he will most likely be unable to take physics at uni. This rules out engineering as well. If he only has 2 unit maths he will have to work very hard in first year and possibly take a bridging course. General maths is a no-go. Science is cut-throat. 40% fail first year. Maths and chemistry are the weeder subjects. After graduating, science gets more cut-throat. He must have a very good grasp of stats to survive, and he will inevitably have to undertake post-grad study. Maths is in everything, even making up a beaker of buffer solution. I am one of the scientists referred to above who had to basically become a biostatistician to remain employed (although i was never paid like one!)

D

[Tsuga]

Whoa.

 

Re: 9th/10th:

 

That is pre-algebra here--6th for public school gifted, 7th for college prep math, 8th standard, 9th remedial. I understand the relationship between algebra on a Cartesian plane and geometry, but for us geometry was very much about two and three dimensional objects, like, I recall a lot of parabolas. Granted that was college-prep but in a small school, and we were behind. It's just a slope... that's not geometry.

 

Actually, common core is what we did in geometry (I know some hate common core, so to those, sorry, but hey, here is a chance to see that the US common core curriculum is at least not behind Ontario):

 

http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/HSG/GPE/

 

Re: 11th/12th, I guess to me that page refers to what we call linear algebra. Not geometry. Though on page 106 there is trig which looks very familiar.

 

The names aren't so important but it does seem important that people get an idea of what sorts of spaces they are working in.

 

Apparently, this:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/secondary/math910curr.pdf

We have integrated math for most of high school in Ontario - the above is the curriculum document for Grades 9 and 10 math.  If you go to p.34 in the document, you'll see the description of what Grade 9 Academic (university bound) students do for "Analytic Geometry".  On p. 36 are the expectations for "Measurement and Geometry".  If you go to p.49, it give the expectations for Grade 10 Academic students for "Analytic Geometry".

 

Here's the document for Grade 11 and 12 math:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/secondary/math1112currb.pdf

If you go to p.108, you'll see the expectations for "Geometry and Algebra of Vectors" in the Grade 12 Calculus course.  As far as I can tell, those are all the mentions of geometry in the high school math documents.  There are a few "baby proofs" in the 9 and 10 courses but no use of theorems or two-column proofs.  This is NOT the way math used to be in Ontario.  I distinctly remember having to do lengthy geometric proofs in Grade 10 math.

 

This is one of the reasons why I chose to homeschool.

 

[flyingiguana]

I'll add that he's 14 -- he doesn't need to be a math whiz right now. 

 

If he wants to eventually go into science (and even if he doesn't) he should, however, be plodding through the math to the best of his abilities.

 

There are lots of kids who end up at college without all the possible high school math courses.  They take the math in college.  It might slow them down, but it is entirely doable. 

 

I wouldn't force him into higher math than he is currently capable of.  He will grow and mature a lot in the next few years.  He may suddenly like math.  You can never tell.

 

But I wouldn't avoid challenging him with math that he's ready for just because he thinks he doesn't like it.  I hate to sound like Barbie, but math is hard.  Which means you need to put more into it to master it.

 

Yes, you can do conceptual science courses.  You can even put them on a transcript.  And it won't keep him from getting admitted to a science major in college.  You could even skip the more rigorous high school science courses (trust me, most of them aren't that rigorous anyway).  HOWEVER, a science major really does need a solid base of math in high school.  He gets to whatever he can get to, doing it ever year and making a slow march through whatever curriculum track he's on.  Ideally, in the US, this would mean at least getting through pre-calc, but you really can do a science major only having completed Algebra 2 in high school.  I've seen a number of students do it (and go on to grad school and/or science jobs).

 

You work at whatever level he is at -- if he really enjoys conceptual science right now, by all means, do it. Don't wait for the math to catch up.

 

My daughter hated math.  She did, at some point, decide that physics was really interesting.  And then realized that she was using all that math she'd hated learning to do the physics problems that she likes to do.  And, her favorite freshman college class this year was calculus (but she'll stick with the physics major -- she doesn't like proofs and really enjoys applied math)

 

Math a year or two AFTER you've learned it is interesting.  While you're in the midst of it, it may not seem that way.

[Mom22ns]

I am not in NZ, but my son right now is finishing up Apologia Chem.  It is one of the lightest chemistry curriculum's I have seen for high school.  All of the experiments are basic kitchen chemistry; no chemicals are even used. The math is PreAlgebra level.  It is definitely not Algebra II level.  Just a lot of exponents, decimals, and conversions. No logs or anything of that nature at all. 

 

I hate to tell you this, but logs aren't covered in MUS Algebra 2 either. They are in Pre-Calculus. I didn't say Apologia used advanced math or Algebra 2. I said it was difficult if the only math the student had had was MUS Algebra. I stand by that statement.

 

I think the suggestion to switch to Australian science sounds great. It sounds like what is done there is a much better fit for the OPs student! 

[EndOfOrdinary]

I hate to tell you this, but logs aren't covered in MUS Algebra 2 either. They are in Pre-Calculus. I didn't say Apologia used advanced math or Algebra 2. I said it was difficult if the only math the student had had was MUS Algebra. I stand by that statement.

 

I think the suggestion to switch to Australian science sounds great. It sounds like what is done there is a much better fit for the OPs student!

Sorry if I implied I was quoting you. I mentioned it just so the OP knew since it was a text she was considering as a step up from conceptual and was worried about the math level. Logs are often used in acid/base pH chemistry, and in many texts they are at the end of Alg1 or in Alg2. It is a standing factor in what math prerequisite is often used with a chem book. That is why I mentioned them.

 

Apologia covers the subject of acids and bases, but no where near in that way. They take most subjects and just brush them. As such, the table of contents looks daunting, they stack out the problems in impressive looking ways, but they are all extremely surface. The OP needs to consider that if her son is interested in science and Apologia is what was considered a standing full course (especially after already having Conceptual Chem)

 

I do not use MUS. I tutored kids who used it and have employed many of the tactics with students who have holes, but it is not a curriculum which I know the scope and sequence of to very significant levels of detail. The remark was not meant to be contradictory.sorry if it came off that way. It was just intended to wrap in many of the statement made previously without really being directed to anyone specifically.

[Pen]

Maybe your son would like math better if he had a more interesting and challenging math program.

[Pen]

Is part of the situation that you are wanting to use Christian religion oriented materials only, not secular?

[dereksurfs]

Maybe your son would like math better if he had a more interesting and challenging math program.

 

That was the case for our ds13. He happily moved from MUS to a more interesting and challenging math after Pre-A.  But this will obviously vary per child.  We started all three with MUS and eventually found better options for them.  MUS was very light, especially after primary math even with the honors problems.  I wonder how the Australian version compares to a standard Australian Algebra text in terms of scope, sequence and challenge?

[lewelma]

Fluffybunny, you need to get your tutor to evaluate those two links you listed to make sure that your ds is being prepared for the exam.  Here is an example of the disconnect between the MUS word problems, and the year 10 math exam here in NZ. 

 

I don't mean to scare you, I just want you to be sure that your tutor has actually compared the program to the exam, to make sure your ds is headed in the right direction. 

 

I know it is hard.  But it is worth it. Good Luck! 

 

Ruth in NZ

 

MUS word problems.  (I have not found the honor's stuff)

    18.     The base of a rectangle is X + 4, and the height is X + 5. What is
         the area of the rectangle? (Remember that the area of a rectangle
         is base times the height.)

    19.     Find the area of the rectangle in #18 if X equals six.

    20.    Take two times the base and height of the rectangle in #18,
using the distributive property, and then find the polynomial that
expresses the new ar ea.

 

NZ exam on "apply linear algebra in solving problems" This exam is one hour, and I have copied the entire exam - meaning it is one big word problem! (This is not the external exam)

 

At Tauranga airport, there are three different taxi companies with taxis available for hire: Fred’s Taxi Company, P & G Taxis, and Flatrate Taxis.

Student Resource A gives the hire charge for each company and the distances to common destinations in Tauranga from the airport.

• Represent the three taxi companies' charges using the same representation (for example, three equations or three graphs).

• Recommend which taxi company to use for a trip to two of the common destinations.

• Recommend distances for which it would be cheapest to use P & G Taxis.

• Fred, who owns Fred’s Taxi Company, wants to be the cheapest taxi company people can use to travel to any destination. Describe at least two different ways Fred could realistically change his hire charges to achieve this goal. Include specific examples of the rates he could use.

Student Resource A

 

Taxi company charges

Fred’s Taxi Company

Fixed charge: $5.00

Per kilometre: $0.50

 

P & G Taxis

C = 0.65D + 2

Where C is the cost in dollars, and D is the distance in kilometres

 

Flatrate Taxis

$25.00 flat fee to any destination up to 60 km.

Additional charges apply over 60 km.

 

Distances from airport

Destination                   Kilometres

City centre

17

Port

24

Bethlehem

45

[fluffybunny]

I'm more confused than ever now! 

 

I think I will wait for our homeschool-moderator to visit next month and I will discuss all of this with her then.

[Dicentra]

Whoa.

 

Re: 9th/10th:

 

That is pre-algebra here--6th for public school gifted, 7th for college prep math, 8th standard, 9th remedial. I understand the relationship between algebra on a Cartesian plane and geometry, but for us geometry was very much about two and three dimensional objects, like, I recall a lot of parabolas. Granted that was college-prep but in a small school, and we were behind. It's just a slope... that's not geometry.

 

Actually, common core is what we did in geometry (I know some hate common core, so to those, sorry, but hey, here is a chance to see that the US common core curriculum is at least not behind Ontario):

 

http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/HSG/GPE/

 

Re: 11th/12th, I guess to me that page refers to what we call linear algebra. Not geometry. Though on page 106 there is trig which looks very familiar.

 

The names aren't so important but it does seem important that people get an idea of what sorts of spaces they are working in.

 

Believe me - "whoa" is the nicest term I can think of when I see how they've gutted the curriculum.  It did NOT used to be like this.  One of the reasons that this high-school-teacher-turned-college-instructor began homeschooling dd when she was in Grade 2... ;)

[lewelma]

I'm more confused than ever now! 

 

I think I will wait for our homeschool-moderator to visit next month and I will discuss all of this with her then.

 

You have a homeschool moderator!!??!  Awesome. Yes, I would definitely ask. 

 

I hope I did not confuse you.  Here are my recommendations in summary:

 

Science:

1) Don't worry about doing conceptual science in year 9. It is fine if you are doing integrated science (so I would suggest some biology in addition to chem, physics, and geology).  Next year you just bump up the maths.

2) Consider switching to Australian science textbooks for year 10, so your ds is prepared for the transition to school and for the exams.

 

Maths:

1) Consider switching to an Australian maths program/textbook this year or next year, because MUS is considered pretty light for a STEM kid.

2) If you want to stay with MUS because your son does well with it, get your tutor to compare the MUS materials to the Australian exams, and buy supplemental materials to cover the gaps.

 

I think that is it from me. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[fluffybunny]

Thanks Ruth: it wasn't your post that confused me; it was everything! 

 

The mod has never complained about me using MUS yet, though I've never specifically asked her. Mathsonline is supposed to be aligned with the ANC. 

[lewelma]

Well then it might be a moot point. :001_smile:   Worth checking, though.

[Pen]

Thanks Ruth: it wasn't your post that confused me; it was everything! 

 

The mod has never complained about me using MUS yet, though I've never specifically asked her. Mathsonline is supposed to be aligned with the ANC. 

 

 

I would think the issue would be whether MUS is suitable for a child who loves science and where you might want to leave going into a science field easily open for him, not to start closing doors on that now, nor to make it extremely difficult due to a minimal maths background.

 

It sounded like MUS is perfectly acceptable as a math curriculum as far as  Aus. regulations go.

[Rosie_0801]

I've been told that some Australian uni's require homeschooled students to do their year 11 and 12 science through Open Uni, so it might be a good idea to ring around to see if that info is still current.