Science only works with Math?

[fluffybunny]

My brother is a science major and he thinks we can't do science without math, and that we're doing it all wrong with fun videos and books. This has made me doubt myself as my own knowledge of science is fairly basic (I'm an Arts major) so I don't have an informed opinion on this.

 

We are currently doing Chemistry 101 and loving it, but there are no math (which is part of the reason why we're loving it :thumbup1: ). I'm waiting until ds14 finishes Algebra before we attempt the very scary looking Apologia Chemistry, as was advised by Apologia. I don't want to go through traumas before necessary as ds hates math but absolutely loves science (as long as there is no math) .In fact, the science we're doing is more 'philosophy'. I suggested to my brother that we were building his concepts and vocabulary before going abstract, but he disagrees.  

 

So are we doing it all wrong?  :huh:

[go_go_gadget]

I have a somewhat nuanced opinion about this. I think it *is* true that chemistry without algebra doesn't count for high school chemistry, but since you're planning on hitting again after algebra, I don't see what possible harm there could be in dipping your toes in in the meantime. <-- math B.S. with physics B.S. husband, both now in graduate school for the same

[foxbridgeacademy]

I think you could call it conceptual chemistry and count it for freshman year as long as you do another year of math based chemistry.  You could throw in some conceptual Physics this year and call it Intro to Physical Science or maybe even just physical science, which is what many of the freshmen around here take.  Follow up next year with Algebra based Chemistry.

[Tsuga]

 

. I don't want to go through traumas before necessary as ds hates math but absolutely loves science (as long as there is no math)

 

Warning: Somewhat harsh post ahead.

 

 

 

Math is what makes science verifiable. Without math and measurement, you can't really do science. You can just observe the natural world. Science and math have been intertwined since pretty much the end of the Roman empire.

 

"In fact, the science we're doing is more 'philosophy'."

 

You're actually doing primary school science. I know that sounds really harsh, and I am sorry, but it's true. High school philosophy would include formal logic and metaphysics.

 

I don't want to sound really discouraging--please don't show this to your son at this point, but... many people who will study science in college are taking algebra by grade 8. Not all but many. A good 90% of people are algebra in grade 8 in our schools. Those who save algebra until grade nine will barely get through trig/pre-calc in grade 12,  and you need calc to do college level science (physics).

 

There is no science section in the SAT: his math score will be what the science schools look at.

 

If your son really loves science I would strongly encourage him to deal with math. Do all those fun videos and experiments with math. Show him what's expected of him to do science. It doesn't have to be his favorite subject. It wasn't mine. He doesn't have to love it. He can hate it. It can be the one thing that he works his butt off in while hating it, but he needs to do that to do any science.

 

Everyone likes to watch explosions and blooming flowers. Of course. That's the natural world. But can you do the calculations to see which flowers bloom significantly faster than others? That is science. If you can't you're just looking at flowers growing.

 

On the other hand, if he just likes science videos and plans to watch science videos and go into a field in the humanities in college, then the science videos are sufficient for now.

[OneStepAtATime]

Don't kill his love of science by suddenly force-feeding math on him but Binip is right.  If he intends to pursue any sort of science major he is going to have to incorporate math into his science lessons.  Does he hate math because he struggles with it?  Or he just doesn't like the subject?  If he struggles, what areas does he struggle in?  Is he good with concepts if the computation is scaffolded?  Perhaps you could hire a tutor that is good at outside the box thinking and approaches to help with the math side of things.

 

FWIW, DH is terrible at basic computation but is excellent at Science and with higher level math.  He gets math concepts quite well and is a very successful Engineer.  He just has to have supports in place for basic comutation.  He hated math when it was elementary level.  He started to love math when he hit the higher level maths....

[go_go_gadget]

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that OP wasn't trying to say that her DS was heading for a science major, just that he enjoyed it. Certainly if he is, the math will need to be stepped up. I'd also hazard a guess that Apologia wouldn't be an ideal curriculum for a serious pre-scientist, but I speak with no authority on that; I've never used it.

[Tsuga]

Does her son, who loves science, know that he's not headed in that direction, though?

 

He's homeschooled--he doesn't have a lot of comparison to other kids, you know? This is the age where they choose. He deserves the information.

[Mom22ns]

You've already gotten good answers, but I'm going to take a shot anyway.

 

Are you doing it wrong? 

Yes and no. Your brother is right. No math = no science, particularly chemistry. 

 

That said, you can't do Chemistry with math before you do Algebra. You just can't. Your ds is 14, I don't know if you are counting this year as 8th grade or 9th (I don't know if he just turned 14 or is about to turn 15). I wouldn't have chosen a chemistry light for 9th grade, but it is a bit change that. I know nothing about Chemistry 101 to know if it is worthy of a high school credit for "Introduction to Chemistry" or something.

 

Typically students that don't have the math background for Physics or Chemistry do Biology in 9th grade in order to let their math skills catch up. That is why so many public schools do Biology first. 

 

So, what you did wrong in my mind was choose a light science because he wasn't ready for the full version - rather than choosing a science that required less math that he could still do a full high school level course in.

 

What you are doing right is letting his math level guide his science. You can't put him into a science class that he doesn't have the math background for. If he is really interested in science, I would consider doubling up on his math. You could start him in Geometry this semester at the same time he is finishing Algebra and let him finish over the summer or next fall while he is starting Algebra 2. That way he would be taking Algebra 2 simultaneously with a full math based Chemistry which is very helpful.

 

Finally, there is nothing wrong with Apologia Chemistry. If he is interested in a career in Biology, I wouldn't use their Biology because there is too much missing in evolution and evolutionary thought that impacts nearly every area of Biology. This just isn't true in Chemistry. It is not the most challenging course on the market, but it is a solid intro that works well for homeschoolers, nothing wrong with that. You really didn't need another Chemistry to lead into it, but I'm not sure of a good option for fixing that. You could take the second semester this year and do an introduction to Physics with a Conceptual Physics book. That would give you a year of ICP (Integrated Chemistry & Physics) a course many schools use for 9th grade, another place holder class until students are ready for math heavier courses.

 

He still has time to do a full year of Biology, Chemistry, and Physics. You're ok. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Does her son, who loves science, know that he's not headed in that direction, though?

 

He's homeschooled--he doesn't have a lot of comparison to other kids, you know? This is the age where they choose. He deserves the information.

 

I wouldn't say that 14 is the age that they choose their career.  But it is an age where choices can close doors. 

 

[Tsuga]

Yes, thank you for clarifying that, Ellen. I meant they choose an overall path towards college or training.

 

I do know people who went back for STEM but it's way more expensive to get all those pre-reqs in community college after you've used up much of your financial aid on a first bachelor's.

[Trilliums]

We did math with fun videos and books through grade 7.  In grade 8 we took on more structure in math although my kids were part of that decision.  They knew they needed the math to continue on to college as they both plan on pursuing STEM careers. Around grade 7-8 we started having conversations about plans beyond high school.  They used this information to help plan out their high school education.

 

They disliked math until they got past algebra.  The conceptual part is strong, but the computation has always been a struggle for them. Now that they are older teens and have made it through several math classes at the high school and university, they have grown stronger in math computation too.  

 

When my kids started algebra, they had some gaps in knowledge since we hadn't used comprehensive programs prior to that.  ALEKS and Khan academy were great ways to fill in the gaps.

[Kalmia]

I want to offer a slightly different view, one from E. O. Wilson, Harvard biology professor and world expert on ant behavior. He writes in his book Letters to a Young Scientist in the chapter entitled "First Passion, Then Training" that:

 

"You may think me foolhardy, but it's been my habit to brush aside the fear of mathematics when talking to candidate scientists. During my decades of teaching biology at Harvard, I watched as bright undergraduates turned away from the possibility of a scientific career, or even from nonrequired courses in the sciences because they were afraid of failure in the math that might be required. Why should I care? Because such mathphobes deprive science of an immeasurable amount of solely needed talent and deprive the many scientific disciplines of some of their most creative young people. This is a hemorrhage of brain power that we need to staunch." E. O. Wilson

 

He does not recommend turning one's back on mathematics, but explains that passion must precede mathematical knowledge. It sounds like your child may have a passion toward the sciences. Fourteen is a little early to tell him, sorry Bub, you didn't finish Algebra I in 8th grade so you are off the list. E. O. Wilson himself credits the years he spent in Boy Scouts and messing around in fields watching bugs with inspiring his scientific achievements, not his grades in high school mathematics. The mathematics came later when he needed it to continue following his passion.

 

So if your child is interested in science let him explore it as much as possible outside the classroom (writing to professors of the subject, going to science museums, watching videos, reading, doing experiments) as well as moving along in math. High school students are ready to make real contributions to scientific knowledge especially in such subjects as field biology and ecology. I am sure that a high school student who has studied sparrows alongside a local college professor in the summers but had only completed pre cal by senior year would be much more appealing than the hordes of applicants who followed the suggested mathematics path but never worked in a lab or at a paleontology dig. Since you are homeschooling your child should have the freedom to make connections with people in the sciences in your area or via email.

 

Also, there are science related careers that are not research based and thus don't require the highest level of math: working at a science museum, nature center, or zoo, teaching science in school, working in state government in various departments, science journalism, and science curriculum development. So don't throw away the dream quite yet!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tsuga]

There's a difference between saying something's off the list and saying, "eventually science requires math and doing it now is cheaper".

[Pen]

What is the Chemistry 101 that he is loving?

[JDoe]

I am afraid I have to disagree with a number of posters here. The scope of science is wider than the mathematically formulated part, although the importance of math-based science should not be ignored.

 

Hope this may help illustrate my point:

[fluffybunny]

Thanks so much for your replies so far. It's hard to say at this stage where he is headed in terms of tertiary education, but it looks more like a science direction, or a mix of science and humanities. As for maths, he does have a tutor and they do MUS. He's a third through Algebra. He hates maths: not always, but most of the time.

 

There is not much we can do that he is about 6 months behind. So, I don't see any point in bringing up that he is behind because he has all the help he can get and we can't rush him through these important years. 

[fluffybunny]

What is the Chemistry 101 that he is loving?

 

 

This is it:

 

http://the-101-series-store.myshopify.com/

 

It says it's for over 15 year olds, but I think anywhere from 12 or 13 could easily understand it. The videos are incredibly well done and Wes Olsen puts difficult concepts into understandable forms. He's got a physics series out next. The course says it is for over a year, but you can do it easily in 2 months. We both love it!

[fluffybunny]

 

I am afraid I have to disagree with a number of posters here. The scope of science is wider than the mathematically formulated part, although the importance of math-based science should not be ignored.

 

Hope this may help illustrate my point:

 

 

 

JDoe, this looks interesting. Do you have a link to a further explanation, or do you mind further explaining it here? What would this look like in practical terms?

 

Thanks

[Mom22ns]

Thanks so much for your replies so far. It's hard to say at this stage where he is headed in terms of tertiary education, but it looks more like a science direction, or a mix of science and humanities. As for maths, he does have a tutor and they do MUS. He's a third through Algebra. He hates maths: not always, but most of the time.

 

There is not much we can do that he is about 6 months behind. So, I don't see any point in bringing up that he is behind because he has all the help he can get and we can't rush him through these important years. 

 

Algebra in 9th grade isn't really behind in math. Chemistry in 9th grade is a bit out of the normal sequence thats all. While many schools now do Algebra in 8th grade as standard the thousands of kids in all the districts near me including the largest district in the state, still do Algebra in 9th grade as standard 8th honors. You are right, there is no point in taking a math hater who is already using a light math curriculum and a tutor and trying to force them to speed up or tell them they are behind. Nothing will be gained.

 

So my advice is two-fold. First, consider doing math year-round if he is really interested in science. Explain the need and see what he thinks. Then look at his science sequence with him with honesty in regards to math. Consider Biology next year, then hit Chemistry again, then Physics. He can still get through solid high school level science. Will it get him into elite STEM colleges, no. Will it get him into a less selective college with a science major, yes.

 

Finally, good news and bad news with MUS from someone who has been there. The good news, MUS Geometry is easy. Really, it is flat out easy. It can be done in well under a year, even by a math hater. It is an opportunity to catch up a bit. The bad news is, we tried Apologia Chemistry after ds did MUS Algebra (with a straight A and no struggle) and he really struggled with the math in Chemistry still. MUS is very light on word problems and really didn't have him ready. He needed Algebra 2 (or a different curriculum which is what I did with the second child) to be ready for Chemistry. Be careful about heading into Chemistry with MUS math before he can at least do Algebra 2 simultaneously.

[JDoe]

JDoe, this looks interesting. Do you have a link to a further explanation, or do you mind further explaining it here? What would this look like in practical terms?

 

Thanks

 

No links I am afraid, but I can do my best to try to answer any question.

 

In practical terms I believe you do nothing wrong in doing science without numbers, however most hard science is concentrated on Quantitative & Dynamic. 

 

If you are starting with exploring attributes I suggest you either move towards adding time as a complication, or adding quantity as a complication next, but not both at the same time.

 

Suggested sequence would be Attributes-Numerical Constants-Uniformity of Change/Cause&Effect-Functional  relations or Attributes-Uniformity of Change/Cause&Effect-Numerical Constants-Functional  relations.

 

 

On the more concrete level I am a little more uncertain as to how you might implement this within what you are trying to achieve.

[8filltheheart]

I also don't want to discourage you, but I do want to insert a word of caution. MUS is a very weak alg program. (I actually use it as pre-alg with my kids.) Rather than waiting for college and encountering that level of rigor in math, you might want to seriously consider repeating alg again next yr with a more thorough textbook. Yes, it means he will only make it through alg 2 in high school, but alg is th foundation of all upper level math. If you build it on MUS and he is not an intuitive math student who automatically fills in the gaps and makes connections on his own, when he gets to college, he will most likely face serious math struggles and doubt his choice of direction if he decides on a STEM field. Solidifying his math during high school will only be to his long term benefit.

 

You could do biology next yr while solidifying his math and repeating alg, and the do a solid high school level chemistry the following yr.

[Mom22ns]

I also don't want to discourage you, but I do want to insert a word of caution. MUS is a very weak alg program. 

You could do biology next yr while solidifying his math and repeating alg, and the do a solid high school level math the following yr.

 

Instead of repeating Algebra 1, we just switched ds at Algebra 2. We moved to Lial's and because it starts each topic from the beginning (expecting the first part of each lesson to be review), ds was able to fill holes and come out of Algebra 2 at a much higher level. It was a long and arduous year, but it worked very well without making him feel he had failed as repeating Algebra 1 would have. We switched dd at Algebra 1 and found that to be a challenging but doable move as well. We did come back to MUS for Geometry with both though.

 

This could be a solid plan for you math hating science loving son too OP. We've been where you are in many ways. Feel free to PM if you want to discuss details privately.

[Dicentra]

 

Also, there are science related careers that are not research based and thus don't require the highest level of math: working at a science museum, nature center, or zoo, teaching science in school, working in state government in various departments, science journalism, and science curriculum development. So don't throw away the dream quite yet!

 

Eek! :D  Not sure what the qualifications are elsewhere, but in order to teach high school chem, one should have at least a B.Sc. in Chemistry.  When I took my Bachelor's, I had to take math up to and including Calculus IIIB and Advanced Number Theory.  Not meaning to single you out, Kalmia :) , but in order to get to the point of teaching science well in high school, a student may need to be willing to do some higher levels of math (but maybe not the highest level ;) ).

[fluffybunny]

Finally, good news and bad news with MUS from someone who has been there. The good news, MUS Geometry is easy. Really, it is flat out easy. It can be done in well under a year, even by a math hater. It is an opportunity to catch up a bit. The bad news is, we tried Apologia Chemistry after ds did MUS Algebra (with a straight A and no struggle) and he really struggled with the math in Chemistry still. MUS is very light on word problems and really didn't have him ready. He needed Algebra 2 (or a different curriculum which is what I did with the second child) to be ready for Chemistry. Be careful about heading into Chemistry with MUS math before he can at least do Algebra 2 simultaneously.

 

That is really good info to know. Perhaps the easy geometry will inspire ds to move forward. When he loves something he really loves it. Perhaps I'll wait until then before we do Apologia Chem, as I don't want to endure the usual meltdowns over things like this. We could do Biology in the meantime. My brother will just have to wait! LOL

 

I keep hearing that MUS is 'light' but our maths tutor who has just finished a STEM degree at a prestigious university in our city, raves about MUS. She said that it helped her understand maths for the first time! And she uses the concepts with other students she has. 

 

addit: I think ds's abstract thinking is a little behind and this could be one of the problems. 

[maize]

If you are not already planning on continuing math through the summer I think this would be worth considering. While you are right that rushing through would not be wise, a student with a serious interest in science will need strong math skills and working through the summer allows the student not only to keep pressing forward systematically but also to not lose ground and need to spend more time on review.

[Dicentra]

This is it:

 

http://the-101-series-store.myshopify.com/

 

It says it's for over 15 year olds, but I think anywhere from 12 or 13 could easily understand it. The videos are incredibly well done and Wes Olsen puts difficult concepts into understandable forms. He's got a physics series out next. The course says it is for over a year, but you can do it easily in 2 months. We both love it!

 

While this looks like a fun introduction to chemistry, I wouldn't think that it would be enough to be considered a credit of high school chem.  I know you know this already, fluffybunny, since you plan on doing Apologia later.  I just wanted to put that out there in case anyone else was wondering. :)

[8filltheheart]

I'm sorry, but I honestly believe your tutor is wrong. I have had strong, non-struggling (ever) math students breeze through MUS's alg without difficulty but still have to really think to solve problems in Foersters alg 1 (repeating the same level.) I have gone from MUS to Foersters with 5 kids. (So I am not making my comments without intimate knowledge.) It has been the same with all of them (and one of them has graduated from high school with 300 level math credits.) you need to follow the path you want, but I know I would not want my kids to face a STEM major with a MUS background. (And the majority of my older kids have chosen a STEM field.)

[fluffybunny]

If you are not already planning on continuing math through the summer I think this would be worth considering. While you are right that rushing through would not be wise, a student with a serious interest in science will need strong math skills and working through the summer allows the student not only to keep pressing forward systematically but also to not lose ground and need to spend more time on review.

 

It IS the summer holidays here in Australia. All the kids are on holidays and we are doing maths. He's with his tutor right now who comes 5 days per week. Any more than 2 weeks off, ds forgets everything. 

[Hunter]

I think many people severely underestimate the importance of what many refer to as primary level science. Too many students that have not yet mastered the concrete topics that they USE every day, are forced to memorize abstract topics that they don't understand and will never use.

 

We love what is presented at our developmental level and is useful to us. "High school level" includes what is developmentally appropriate and useful to normal and average teenaged people, not just what is appropriate for gifted and competitive students. Teenaged people who are allowed to study what they love and is at their developmental level have a great chance at a quality adulthood. Yes, some children can be spoon-fed a curriculum that allows them to pretend they understand abstract and complex ideas, but most of the time, their lack of understanding is revealed if the job or later classes REALLY needs to student to have mastered the material.

 

I think sometimes we close more doors, by trying to leave too many open. It's an even narrower idea to try and prepare ALL students for ALL things, than it is to allow some students to adapt to their strengths and weaknesses and take advantage of readily available resources.

 

I know nothing about certain types of jobs and colleges. But, I also think some of the people that were competitive as children and have competitive children of their own have holes in their knowledge about what else is available and possible. Many a highly-trained gourmet cook would be hard pressed to make a decent meal from a Mormon's stored stockpile of pantry foods. The world is far bigger than math based science instruction.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

The world is far bigger than math based science instruction.

Not if the student wants to attend college and major in science.

 

I have a perfectly avg dd who earned a 2 yr Allied health degree at a CC. (She is a COTA.) She had to take college chem, college bio, statistics, etc. Her math skills are most definitely not on par with what her brothers needed for chemE or physics, but she needed a solid math AND science foundation for her own pursuits. Bc she is not as strong of a student as her siblings, having had exposure to solid high school level sciences before taking the college level was all the more important. She needed a firm grasp of the fundamentals or she would have been overwhelmed.

[Mom22ns]

I keep hearing that MUS is 'light' but our maths tutor who has just finished a STEM degree at a prestigious university in our city, raves about MUS. She said that it helped her understand maths for the first time! And she uses the concepts with other students she has. 

 

addit: I think ds's abstract thinking is a little behind and this could be one of the problems. 

 

I don't disagree with your tutor in that MUS is great at teaching some concepts. I understand math at a level I never did before we used MUS too.

 

Unfortunately, it still didn't cover enough. There was a combination of not enough concepts covered in a level, and not enough types of problems (particularly word problems) to prepare for sciences. When we went to Chemistry, ds had never seen the problems he had to do there. Dd on the other hand, having done Lial's has done all of the types of problems found in Chemistry, in the exact form that they appear in Chemistry. 

 

Your tutor is just not noticing what is missing, perhaps because she can fill in those blanks with her advanced knowledge.

 

I loved MUS for a long time, but it has led to some of my biggest regrets in high school. It isn't all bad and if your ds wasn't a science lover, with his abstract thinking delays and his math hatred in general, I'd definitely tell you to stick with it. However, if he doesn't get the math background he needs, science will become torture and if it is a love... it is a hard spot to be in. I hope whatever you do works out for the best.

 

I get it and it hurts just to think about it. Right now, it sounds like you are doing the best you and he can. Keep up the good work.

[Tsuga]

I disagree with the interpretation of the chart. Rather than saying math is not integral to science, it suggests that math is one integral part of science--the other parts being equally important.

 

In primary school, we of course focus on what the children can deal with. Very simple math, and then the qualitative study.

 

I am not trying to say that OP's son cannot do science. There are many chances in life and he is not so much as behind as he has expressed that he is not interested in one of the key skills required to move forward in science.

 

The behind part--well, he's not behind compared to many people I know who eventually went into science, but most of them made a decision to cope with, or already enjoyed math, but were late bloomers for whatever reason. That is not the point.

 

The point is, can he be doing high school science without math?  The chart below only highlights the fact that he does need math to study any science which is beyond its infancy. In order to get a job in a science related field, if that is what he wishes to pursue, he will require a college-level knowledge of a least one such science. Then, assuming that he does a good enough job for hands-on work, he can move back into exploration. Though, where you can work merely cataloging things at this point in human development, I do not know.

 

Her son loves science. Rather than say, he's okay, don't worry, I do think mom should think, this is an area where he will have to work really hard no matter what, if he wants to pursue it in higher education.

 

That is not cutting someone off. It is showing a path--a hard, steep path, but a path--to somewhere.

 

For late bloomers, and I do believe there is such a thing, community college science can be a great place to grow. It's not necessarily the most challenging BUT--one good thing is that if you go to a college that sends many students to the flagship state college, you can often get a very real idea from your instructors how hard you need to work and what talent you need, to succeed in the long run.

 

Again, this is assuming he wants to keep science doors open.

 

 

 

I am afraid I have to disagree with a number of posters here. The scope of science is wider than the mathematically formulated part, although the importance of math-based science should not be ignored.

 

Hope this may help illustrate my point:

 

 

[lewelma]

fluffybunny, given you are in Australia, are you doing a Feb to Dec school year?  If so, are you doing chemistry for the 2015 school year?  Sounds like you have already started which is why I am confused.

 

The IGCSE Chemistry put out by CIE (Cambridge International Exams) has a textbook for a 5th former (10th grade america, year 11 NZ, not sure about australia).  It has the 'core' materials and the 'supplemental' materials, and there are 2 different exams you can go for.  I tell you this, because the 'core' material has NO math in it -- I'm holding the textbook. Topics include: nature of matter, elements and compounds, chemical reactions, acids and bases and salts, patterns and properties of metals, industrial inorganic chemistry, organic chemisry, petrochemicals and polymers, and chemical analysis and investigation.  The 'supplemental' material includes the harder material in each chapter and 2 additional chapters: quantitative chemistry and how far, how fast?  The Cambridge exams are incredibly well respected and lead to the A levels.  And you could easily up your game by doing the 'core' material of this textbook as an acceptable high school chemistry course and not have to worry about any math yet.

 

http://www.bookdepository.com/Cambridge-Igcse-Chemistry-Coursebook-with-CD-ROM-Richard-Harwood/9781107615038

 

Ruth in NZ

[fluffybunny]

fluffybunny, given you are in Australia, are you doing a Feb to Dec school year?  If so, are you doing chemistry for the 2015 school year?  Sounds like you have already started which is why I am confused.

 

The IGCSE Chemistry put out by CIE (Cambridge International Exams) has a textbook for a 5th former (10th grade america, year 11 NZ, not sure about australia).  It has the 'core' materials and the 'supplemental' materials, and there are 2 different exams you can go for.  I tell you this, because the 'core' material has NO math in it -- I'm holding the textbook. Topics include: nature of matter, elements and compounds, chemical reactions, acids and bases and salts, patterns and properties of metals, industrial inorganic chemistry, organic chemisry, petrochemicals and polymers, and chemical analysis and investigation.  The 'supplemental' material includes the harder material in each chapter and 2 additional chapters: quantitative chemistry and how far, how fast?  The Cambridge exams are incredibly well respected and lead to the A levels.  And you could easily up your game by doing the 'core' material of this textbook as an acceptable high school chemistry course and not have to worry about any math yet.

 

http://www.bookdepository.com/Cambridge-Igcse-Chemistry-Coursebook-with-CD-ROM-Richard-Harwood/9781107615038

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Yes, we just started Year 9 lewelma - yesterday, to be precise (a month before the kids go back!).  :001_smile:

 

That's very interesting that a Year 11 textbook for Chem has no maths! I've put it in my wishlist. But for this year I have Chem 101, Physics 101 and a highschool Scitech Geology kit. As a previous poster pointed out, I may need to wait until he has finished Algebra II before attempting Apologia Chemistry. If I need something between then, this book might be the one. So thanks.

 

I think I just need for his abstract thinking to mature. For instance, he still has some slight problems telling fact from fiction, that I think most kids his age would have grown out of. 

[lewelma]

Yes, we just started Year 9 lewelma - yesterday, to be precise (a month before the kids go back!).  :001_smile:

 

That's very interesting that a Year 11 textbook for Chem has no maths! I've put it in my wishlist. But for this year I have Chem 101, Physics 101 and a highschool Scitech Geology kit. As a previous poster pointed out, I may need to wait until he has finished Algebra II before attempting Apologia Chemistry. If I need something between then, this book might be the one. So thanks.

 

I think I just need for his abstract thinking to mature. For instance, he still has some slight problems telling fact from fiction, that I think most kids his age would have grown out of. 

 

(just to note: I think it is a year 10 book in the australian system because you finish in year 12. So I'm going to write the rest of this in Australian :001_smile: )

 

Well, the Cambridge system has 3 years of each subject - year 10(IGCSE), year 11 (AS), and year 12 (A levels).  So if you wanted to get to the A-levels in Chemistry, you would have to master the supplemental year 10 material in year 11, which would make year 11 more difficult.  But by having 'core' material that is easier, it allows kids the chance to dabble in many subjects without fear of failure.  Plus,  the year 10 'core' chemistry is NOT easy.  You still have to memorize a ton of equations and interactions and use them in a synergistic, problem-solving way to answer tricky questions.  There is just no maths. :001_smile: I would also assume that kids going into a STEM field would do the supplemental-material exam, and humanities-types would do the core-material exam.  But if your son is not ready for the maths, but has the interest, it is an option for a conceptual highschool chemistry course that is legitimate.

 

Also, not sure about how Australia works, but in NZ the year your son is in is not a testing year, so you don't have to do any real courses.  This is different than in America where the transcript is built for the last 4 years of high school.  So in America, you might only take 1 year of chemistry in your entire high school career, where as in NZ you take integrated science in your year 9 and 10 (both years together cover level 1 in chem, phys, bio) and then level 2 and level 3 in years 11& 12.  This can happen because kids here specialize earlier so don't have all the core class requirements that they do in the USA (so no history if you are STEM etc).  So the Americans here may be worried that your chemistry class is not enough for the ONE chemistry class you would take in a US high school (sometimes they take 2, but never 3). But if Australia works more like NZ, your ds has more years to cover the material. Does that make sense?

 

I think you may need to get an Australian point of view on this issue.

 

Ruth in NZ

[lewelma]

I just reread your post.  Are you not doing an integrated science course?  Chem, Physics, and Geology?  If so, you don't have to do any maths, because basically you are hitting all the conceptual material in all 3 subjects in year 9, and then you hit the mathematical material in the same subjects in year 10.  This is very commonly done here in NZ to allow kids a better chance at being able to handle the maths.  The Level 1 exam taken here in your year 10 has maths in it, but you have 2 years to get through all the chemistry material, so the maths can be done in the second year. 

 

Do you have an exam you are working towards? If so, you need to make sure that you are doing a full half of the material on the exam this year, so that your ds is not doing more than half next year.  I'm a bit concerned about the lack of biology in an integrated science course, but maybe you guys do things differently there.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Pegs]

Hey fluffybunny, I went through math and science in Australian high schools not too long ago. The year 11 and 12 chem and physics courses required a bit of very basic algebra (solving for unknowns, rates of change); a superficial understanding of, and ability to manipulate, base 10 logarithms (for calculating pH); some basic trig (SOH-CAH-TOA and Pythagoras) for calculating vectors in the motion and forces units; and an ability to calculate accurately, using scientific notation, and taking into account significant figures, and error.

 

If your son is not able to keep pace with a math journey that would have him studying highschool mathematics at the same level as his science courses, he could still do well in years 11 and 12 with (integrated) math up to an Australian year 10 level, perhaps with extra lessons as things come up with his science work. A little bit of chem in years 9 and 10 would certainly be a good intro before taking chem further in highschool, but they needn't be math heavy. Balancing equations would be the most helpful thing to be solid on now, IMHO. Perhaps an introduction to scientific notation and significant figures, if you have time. But I just read up thread, and I see you have just started year 9. What kind of sequence are you planning for the rest of highschool maths and science? The Australian syllabuses seem to be far less dependent on prerequisite subjects, as compared to US sequences I read about on here.

[fluffybunny]

I just reread your post.  Are you not doing an integrated science course?  Chem, Physics, and Geology?  If so, you don't have to do any maths, because basically you are hitting all the conceptual material in all 3 subjects in year 9, and then you hit the mathematical material in the same subjects in year 10.  This is very commonly done here in NZ to allow kids a better chance at being able to handle the maths.  The Level 1 exam taken here in your year 10 has maths in it, but you have 2 years to get through all the chemistry material, so the maths can be done in the second year. 

 

Do you have an exam you are working towards? If so, you need to make sure that you are doing a full half of the material on the exam this year, so that your ds is not doing more than half next year.  I'm a bit concerned about the lack of biology in an integrated science course, but maybe you guys do things differently there.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

He has already done Apologia General Science (year 7) which had an overview of Biology, and Apologia Physical Science in Year 8. The latter maths problems caused a few meltdowns, though the maths weren't hard at all. He has expressed that he isn't interested in pursuing biology (he's very squeamish, for one reason), but wants to pursue Chemistry and maybe Physics. That we can delay the maths parts until Year 10 is a relief! Every time I look at that Ap Chemistry my guts turn over. That we can take our time to build up his knowledge about the world was my original intention ... until my brother had me doubting everything. 

 

We're not working towards any exam or anything: just covering all bases the best I can. I know my humanities stuff, but not STEM. Although he will do NAPLAN this year (which doesn't include science).

 

Is it worth memorising these equations now, and if so where do I find a list of them? I can see that using this time of maths catch up, he can build up his rote knowledge. 

[fluffybunny]

Perhaps an introduction to scientific notation and significant figures, if you have time.

 

Yikes, I am clueless about scientific notation! What is it and where do I find it online? Thanks

 

 

 What kind of sequence are you planning for the rest of highschool maths and science? 

 

 

This year (year 9): finish Algebra 1 and begin Geometry (probably finish by end of year). Science: Chem 101, Physics 101, Scitech Geology kit (I don't know if there is maths in this kit). 

 

Next year (year 10) Algebra 2 and hopefully pre-Calculus, Science: probably Apologia Chemistry

 

We plan for him to go to a bricks and mortar school for year 11 and 12, where he will choose 6 subjects.

 

How does that sound?

[JDoe]

I disagree with the interpretation of the chart. Rather than saying math is not integral to science, it suggests that math is one integral part of science--the other parts being equally important.

 

....

 

The point is, can he be doing high school science without math?  The chart below only highlights the fact that he does need math to study any science which is beyond its infancy. In order to get a job in a science related field, if that is what he wishes to pursue, he will require a college-level knowledge of a least one such science. Then, assuming that he does a good enough job for hands-on work, he can move back into exploration. Though, where you can work merely cataloging things at this point in human development, I do not know.

 

Her son loves science. Rather than say, he's okay, don't worry, I do think mom should think, this is an area where he will have to work really hard no matter what, if he wants to pursue it in higher education.

 

That is not cutting someone off. It is showing a path--a hard, steep path, but a path--to somewhere.

 

I do indeed suggest that "math is one integral part of science", however I so not suggest that the parts are equally important. Reality is that math-based science is MORE important than the other squares in most scientific fields, in fact so much so that one looses sight of the existence of anything but math in those areas of science, which is what I try to correct with this illustration. It should however be noted that some fields of science, biology comes to mind, have LESS maths than others, and that may be a consideration in this case.

 

I hope also that the illustration may serve as a talking point about where OP's son may need to move towards in order to achieve a more complete scientific understanding and hopefully aid in persuading student to start climbing the steep hill of math, in order to open up more fields of science as opportunities for further study. 

[Pegs]

Your mathematics for years 9 and 10 looks fine to me!

 

I actually think that a year of chemistry is overkill at that level. It just doesn't take that long to prepare for chem in years 11 and 12. IMO, one semester each of two science subjects would suffice, and this is generally what you'd expect to cover in a B&M school. You can look ahead to what he'll be studying the following two years, and give your son a solid base in the skills he'll need for those subjects.

 

You might like to do this for year 10 mathematics, too, when finished with whatever you're doing for algebra II. Pre-calc isn't really a *thing* in Australian maths education, so your son may be better off using that time to decide which maths course he'll do at highschool, and work specifically on preparing for it. If you were to find out which maths textbook the highschool is using for year 10, I'm sure there'd be people here happy to help you figure out which units of study to prioritise as you prepare your son for his final two years of highschool. :)

[Lanny]

Thanks so much for your replies so far. It's hard to say at this stage where he is headed in terms of tertiary education, but it looks more like a science direction, or a mix of science and humanities. As for maths, he does have a tutor and they do MUS. He's a third through Algebra. He hates maths: not always, but most of the time.

 

There is not much we can do that he is about 6 months behind. So, I don't see any point in bringing up that he is behind because he has all the help he can get and we can't rush him through these important years. 

 

He needs to be very solid and comfortable with Algebra before proceeding. Weakness in Algebra provides a very shaky foundation for future Math and Science. I suggest you let him take the necessary time to master Algebra 1, before proceeding. Consider Biology  for him at this time  . GL

[Lanny]

It IS the summer holidays here in Australia. All the kids are on holidays and we are doing maths. He's with his tutor right now who comes 5 days per week. Any more than 2 weeks off, ds forgets everything. 

 

My DD likes to study year round, with very few and very short breaks from school. She said when she was in a brick and mortar school she forgot so much during the long Summer vacations. That's normal. If your DS studies year round he will forget less.

[8filltheheart]

(The following post was typed with the tone of genuine concern. I know tone can be hard to interpret. This was not written in a "math war" mentality. The concern for your son's ability to achieve his goals is sincere. I have kids who have graduated from our homeschool and have pursued those fields (chemical engineering and physics) and I know what they have needed in terms of math skills. Unfortunately, I also know they have been surrounded by kids who had same aspirations who have been forced to change majors due to their math skills. Math skills are really the tipping point.)

 

Regardless of what the Australian system requires when, if your son thinks he wants to pursue a career in physics or chemistry then his math needs to be rock solid. Physics is math. Chemistry isn't math quite the way physics is, but it is still very math dependent.

 

The biggest mistake for any student is not solidifying algebra skills. They are the springboard for everything else. Some kids can make the leap on how to implement concepts they have been taught. Some kids need to be taught how to apply the math skills in order to apply them. If your son needs to be taught how to apply concepts to problems in order to solve them, MUS is only giving him baby problems to solve. They learn how to set up simply worded problems that all follow the exact same pattern required for setting them up. Typical algebra 1 application problems which are more complex (multi-step) and require a deeper understanding of how to use the concepts being learned because each "set up to solve" situation is unique are not being covered.

 

Those basic "how do you read this physics or chemistry problem and know how to interpret it and set it up to solve" skills are not being solidified with MUS. MUS focuses mostly on how to solve equations. They are not the same thing. Students should not need to be taught math skills in their science classes. Kids should be applying those math skills already known to science concepts. With the latter approach the focus is on the science. With the former approach, students are overwhelmed by both, the math and the science.

 

This is not "rigor" discussion. It is an essential skill discussion. Would it matter if he wanted to be a history or literature major? No. But for a physics or chemistry major, MUS will gap their skill set. Not a problem if they can make the leap on their own. But kids that need to be taught (or parents who want to ensure their kids have a foundation without gaps) will be better served by strengthening their math skills in math class or it lead may to the scenario where the student reaches pre-cal "equationally" without the equivalent "application ability."

[maize]

I have not used this product, only come across it when researching science options, but maybe it would help fill in some gaps from MUS? http://www.beginningspublishing.com/version2/bridge.htm

 

It is designed specifically to prepare kids to do the math in high school chemistry, and is supposed to be a seven week course.

[regentrude]

Is it worth memorising these equations now, and if so where do I find a list of them? I can see that using this time of maths catch up, he can build up his rote knowledge. 

 

No. Memorizing physics equations is completely pointless if the student does not understand where they come from, how they are derived, and how they are manipulated. Not having algebra would mean memorizing the same equation in four different forms, resolved for each of the variables... an exercise in futility as soon as things get more complex.

Plugging numbers into memorized equations is not physics, but doing trained monkey tricks.

 

Save the equations until your student had algebra.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Since the OP has many questions about math for self education as well as for her student I'd like to put in a plug for Khan Academy.  (search for them on the internet, free, with videos, etc.)

 

Watching my kids work their way through high school science I can't see how one could be successful with out a solid algebra foundation and then continuing courses.  There are many topics at university that require math skills beyond just the sciences, I wouldn't wait or delay on getting a solid, quality foundation in maths if you are prospective university student.

[Tsuga]

It should however be noted that some fields of science, biology comes to mind, have LESS maths than others, and that may be a consideration in this case.

 

 

Yes to most of it, except--

 

Biologists--two of whom I see daily--are losing their jobs to biostatisticians. Of course not all of them. There will always be biologists (not always I suppose, but for the foreseeable future), but the jobs are hard to get when more and more things are automated. My partner is a biologist. 50% of his job is using machines to process data, maybe 20% dealing with biological entities, and another 30% he is explaining data, using math (he has to design the formulae himself) to others or using it to create new experiments.

 

As the ability to process data gets more advanced, so do the requirements for math in the sciences.

 

It does make me sad because like OP's son I love the exploratory part of science.

 

For what it's worth, there are many fields tangentially related to science, like science drawing and science illustration and science photography, or science journalism. You usually would need a minor in something like that, but for someone who can't stand math, that is a possible path.

[justasque]

Thanks so much for your replies so far. It's hard to say at this stage where he is headed in terms of tertiary education, but it looks more like a science direction, or a mix of science and humanities. As for maths, he does have a tutor and they do MUS. He's a third through Algebra. He hates maths: not always, but most of the time.

 

There is not much we can do that he is about 6 months behind. So, I don't see any point in bringing up that he is behind because he has all the help he can get and we can't rush him through these important years. 

 

One thing I've done to help science-loving, math-hating kids to see the benefit of math study is to rework their word problems to be relevant to their particular scientific passion.  For an example - 

 

You want to save the wolves in a particular area, by building a fence to indicate to hunters that they must keep out.  (Or whatever.)  You must gather some information then make a presentation to a (pretend) local organization that gives grants for such things.  You must 1) describe a process to estimate the wolf population, by sampling a small area (then I will give you some numbers to use for this process as if you'd done the sampling), 2) develop a budget for the fence-building project (how much fence?  at what cost?  who will build it?), 3) write a letter to the grant board explaining your findings and outlining your proposed project, and 4) give a speech about it to the grant board (actually, some family and/or friends).  

 

Obviously, there are any number of problem types that can be created around their particular passion.  By showing how math can help them further their passion in the real world, you can often at the very least help them see that it is a tool that might be useful to have in their toolbox.  

 

An easy way to do this is to re-work a problem from their text, using the original numbers.  If, for example, the problem in the book is about sampling green balls from a bag of mixed-color balls, you could make it about sampling green birds from a population of mixed-color birds.  It doesn't have to be written down - a verbal, on-the-spot adjustment is often sufficient.

 

Think about including math in their science work too.  Don't just observe - measure, count, estimate, compare.  Graph things.  Quantify things - how hard is that rock, how forceful is that wind, how deep is that snow.  Learn about units - flight speed in miles per hour, migration distance in kilometers, rock weight in pounds or ounces or grams.  Measure the temperature of the lake, the viscosity of the sap, the density of the stones, the moisture level of the soil, the voltage of the battery, and brightness of the light.  

 

Take that to the next level - make some predictions, and devise a way to test them.  Use the scientific process to do a science fair project.  What kinds of numbers or calculations or graphs will be useful to understand your results and present them to others?

[JDoe]

Yes to most of it, except--

 

Biologists--two of whom I see daily--are losing their jobs to biostatisticians. Of course not all of them. There will always be biologists (not always I suppose, but for the foreseeable future), but the jobs are hard to get when more and more things are automated. My partner is a biologist. 50% of his job is using machines to process data, maybe 20% dealing with biological entities, and another 30% he is explaining data, using math (he has to design the formulae himself) to others or using it to create new experiments.

 

As the ability to process data gets more advanced, so do the requirements for math in the sciences.

 

It does make me sad because like OP's son I love the exploratory part of science.

 

For what it's worth, there are many fields tangentially related to science, like science drawing and science illustration and science photography, or science journalism. You usually would need a minor in something like that, but for someone who can't stand math, that is a possible path.

 

Ah, yes I did forget to mention the statisticians march into the realm of the science, as the meaning of "science" is progressively loosened maybe as a result of the same.

 

When your only tool is a hammer, most problems looks like nails.   :closedeyes: