"Information Technology" or something else?

[Daria]

For the past few years my son has been very consistent about what he wants to do.  He'd like to work for a federal law enforcement agency (FBI, secret service, etc . . .), but on the IT side, setting up and maintaining computer networks, working on cyber security, etc . . .  

 

I don't think he's got the aptitude to be a computer programmer or a software engineer, but I do think he's capable of getting through calculus and applying those skills to a college major or a job.

 

Anyway, if this is what he wants is IT the right college major to look for?  How much math would be required for an I.T. degree? What are the job prospects like?

 

He's only 15, so he's got time to change his mind, but he's been pretty consistent so I'm wondering.

[MarkT]

Actually Calculus and pure IT have little in common except for the idea of being able to understand material that may be complex. Clear logical thinking would be very beneficial. I would suggest that he take a discrete math course in high school.  Some programming skills are expected, for almost any STEM job today so some type of programming (even if just doing spreadsheets) capability is needed. 

 

There is considerable outsourcing pressure on the IT field (not my area but I have many friends in it) so expect competition for jobs.  Hopefully we won't outsource the FBI computing services!

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/articles.php?page=discretemath

 

 

http://www.mathwithmrwood.com/Discrete-Math

 

[G5052]

I teach both IT and computer science at two different community colleges.

 

Right now in my metropolitan area, IT majors from 4-year schools are not as in demand as computer science is.  A professor at the 4-year we feed into told me that about 1/3 of the IT majors are unemployed at graduation versus 1/10 of the computer science majors.  The best concentrations are networking, cyber security, and telecommunications.  If a student has done a co-op or two, the odds are much, much better though.  And a 4-year IT degree has some programming in the basic core classes.  At the school I'm most familiar with, they take the same courses that a computer science student does in the first two years (programming, calculus, etc.) and then they specialize.

 

One thing you might consider is a 2-year degree in IT with a networking focus.  Virtually every graduate we turn out with a network focus is snapped up.  The disadvantage is that it may be a terminal degree, meaning that transferring to get a 4-year degree is going to require more coursework than most.  And network managers are probably going to have a 4-year degree while the folks who set up and maintain the network will probably have a 2-year degree or industry certifications.

[monstermama]

Plugging my alma mater :)  Daria, is he interested in something like this?  

[Daria]

Thanks!

 

To be clear, when I say I think he can get through calculus I mean in college.  He definitely won't have calculus when he graduates high school.  I agree that Computer Science would be more marketable, but the Computer Science degrees I see require a lot of higher math, beyond calculus that I think would be very hard for him.

 

I think the 2 year degree idea is a good one, but he really wants to "go away to college" experience, and I want him to have that if possible. 

 

Do you know any schools that have co-op programs, and take "average" kids?  

[G5052]

 

Do you know any schools that have co-op programs, and take "average" kids?  

 

Most schools with solid technical programs are going to have a co-op program.  The 4-year that my schools feed into accepts about 60% of the freshmen who apply and has an excellent co-op program for those who have completed their sophomore-level classes in their major. Ask specifically about who recruits there for co-ops and how many students take advantage of that during their studies.  Also ask if they offer seminars to help the students take advantage of these opportunities.

[musicianmom]

Sent you a PM

[Mike in SA]

As a person in a hiring position, I would say that I personally value Computer Science degrees over Information Technology.  However, I have not found this to be a common view among hiring managers in Fortune 500 companies.  Most are unfortunately either ignorant of the difference in educational depth, or have given up on getting solid cosci students to make the switch into the business world.

 

At your son's age, you have a good bit of time to try some things out.  For business, a healthy dose of economics and/or accounting with a computer science degree would be big.  With law enforcement interests, though, I think you'd be looking for something altogether different.  Maybe computer science with a HUGE dose of cyber security.  That, by the way, is probably the single greatest need among companies today, die to the growing infestation of malicious hackers.

 

If he wants to get into the guts of cyber security, then take a look at discrete math, as described above.  Counting & Probability would be worth checking out.  You might be surprised to find aptitude where you thought there wasn't any to be found, because it is very different from algebra.  The cutting edge of modern cyber security does rely on a solid mathematical background.  That said, you can go quite a long ways and make a good career even without the math skills.

[ktgrok]

The degree you are looking for is Information Security or Systems Security, I think. My husband is a Security Engineer, at a very large, fortune 500 company, and is now on the board for the local chapter of Infragaurd, a partnership between the FBI and private industry. 

 

Its a VERY good field to be in right now. If he is interested see if he can find a cyberpatriot team.http://www.uscyberpatriot.org/

[lewelma]

My dh is a project manager for the implementation of large IT projects, currently the implementation of biometrics (eye scans, facial recognition, etc) into immigration and police, with a huge dose of security. He has just finished a PhD in IS - Information Systems, which is a new field linking human needs to technological function.  He majored in public policy and has an MBA.  He does not *do* the work, but rather makes the decisions as to what work needs to be done. So more on the strategy side.  Not sure if your ds is keen to actually *do* the work or more decide what the business actually needs.

 

This is a very good field to go into.

 

Ruth in NZ

[ktgrok]

Thanks!

 

To be clear, when I say I think he can get through calculus I mean in college.  He definitely won't have calculus when he graduates high school.  I agree that Computer Science would be more marketable, but the Computer Science degrees I see require a lot of higher math, beyond calculus that I think would be very hard for him.

 

I think the 2 year degree idea is a good one, but he really wants to "go away to college" experience, and I want him to have that if possible. 

 

Do you know any schools that have co-op programs, and take "average" kids?  

 

Once he's got his foot in the door where he got his degree won't matter a whole heck of a lot. My husband makes over six figures, works for a fortune 500 company, and has had offers for more money (mid to high 6 figures) as a systems architect at household name companies (he turned the job down because there wasn't much security involved, and he really wants to stay in security). His degree is from ITT Technical school. Seriously. At the time they were the only school in our area that offered a degree in Information Security, rather than computer science, and he did NOT want to do more coding than he needed to do. And he wanted to specialize in security. What made a difference was getting a job at a company, in the IT department, while in school. Then getting them to pay for his degree, with tuition reimbursement. He worked days and went to school at night. Took longer, but was a great plan. He then was promoted in that company, then used the combo of experience and degree to get a better paying job at another local company. Security is a small field, everyone seems to know everyone in our general area, so his reputation as a hard worker, leadership skills, and people skills have done more for him than anything. 

 

So yeah, I'm fairly sure he never took a Calculus class. Now, to be fair, the field is growing, and there are now more schools offering the right degrees, so of course it would look better to have a major university name on the diploma, for up and comings. I'm NOT advising technical school (way too expensive anyway). But no, you don't have to be a math genius. 

 

My son is hoping to follow in his stepfather's footsteps and is also interested in information security. He's looking at UCF right now, as their cyberdefense team won a national competition last year. One of their graduates interns for my husband and is now being courted by google, yahoo, amazon, etc. Winning that competition opened a lot of doors. 

 

My husband recently started a blog about some security stuff, just for fun, if your son wants to check it out. http://www.thetheaterofsecurity.com/

 

You could also see if there will be a Bsides conference near you...it's for adults, but my teen went last year and learned a lot. Tickets are generally cheap. http://www.securitybsides.com/w/page/12194156/FrontPage

[Daria]

Thanks everyone!  This gives me a lot to think about.

[AEC]

Thanks!

 

To be clear, when I say I think he can get through calculus I mean in college.  He definitely won't have calculus when he graduates high school.  I agree that Computer Science would be more marketable, but the Computer Science degrees I see require a lot of higher math, beyond calculus that I think would be very hard for him.

 

I think the 2 year degree idea is a good one, but he really wants to "go away to college" experience, and I want him to have that if possible. 

 

Do you know any schools that have co-op programs, and take "average" kids?  

 

background: I have a CS Degree and have been employed as a SW engineer for 20 years...

 

SWEngineering and IT (as it's defined in the corporate world) are totally separate professions - they overlap only in that they both require regular computer use.  

 

Purely IT based careers are really a trade - by which I mean, the skill set you need to excel includes logical thinking, good failure diagnostics skills, and a whole bunch of 'current information'.  For example...not how networks work in theory, how to design one, etc etc...but how TCP/IP networks that currently exist are currently implemented so you can fix the problems that occur in them, today.  It's kind-of like auto-repair vs automotive engineering or physics.

 

Those jobs certainly exist and are in demand, but...IMO...

 

-> don't get a 4-year degree.  It's not necessary or all that helpful.  a 2-year networking certification is sufficient, cheaper and faster.

-> plan to continue taking classes essentially forever to keep the 'current information' current.

-> I'd be a bit nervous about being made obsolete - either through outsourcing or through automation.

 

Finally, based on my experience in several high-tech companies...good IT people are employable, important, etc...but are viewed somewhat like lab technicians. 

 

 

 

Alternatives he might consider....

 

1) information security.  Huge growth there, and its only going to get larger.

2) information theory/information systems (computer science).  same comment.

 

both of which have wider applicability that 'IT' and longer lifetimes.

 

as far as math goes...the math he'll need beyond calculus is discrete math.  It's quite different.  I struggled w/ the tail end of calculus (differential equations...ick!!) but did great w/ discrete math, stats, etc.

[Mike in SA]

background: I have a CS Degree and have been employed as a SW engineer for 20 years...

 

SWEngineering and IT (as it's defined in the corporate world) are totally separate professions - they overlap only in that they both require regular computer use.  

 

Purely IT based careers are really a trade - by which I mean, the skill set you need to excel includes logical thinking, good failure diagnostics skills, and a whole bunch of 'current information'.  For example...not how networks work in theory, how to design one, etc etc...but how TCP/IP networks that currently exist are currently implemented so you can fix the problems that occur in them, today.  It's kind-of like auto-repair vs automotive engineering or physics.

 

Those jobs certainly exist and are in demand, but...IMO...

 

-> don't get a 4-year degree.  It's not necessary or all that helpful.  a 2-year networking certification is sufficient, cheaper and faster.

-> plan to continue taking classes essentially forever to keep the 'current information' current.

-> I'd be a bit nervous about being made obsolete - either through outsourcing or through automation.

 

Finally, based on my experience in several high-tech companies...good IT people are employable, important, etc...but are viewed somewhat like lab technicians. 

 

 

 

Alternatives he might consider....

 

1) information security.  Huge growth there, and its only going to get larger.

2) information theory/information systems (computer science).  same comment.

 

both of which have wider applicability that 'IT' and longer lifetimes.

 

as far as math goes...the math he'll need beyond calculus is discrete math.  It's quite different.  I struggled w/ the tail end of calculus (differential equations...ick!!) but did great w/ discrete math, stats, etc.

 

I don't know that I totally agree with this.  Some things are spot on, imho: working with business systems (IT or IS) is very much different than true software engineering; discrete math is definitely the one that matters more than calculus; staying current is important in any field -- if you aren't growing, you are at best stagnating.

 

Where I disagree:

 

The 2-year degree recommendation will be limiting.  My company (and most that I know either first- or second-hand) will not consider 2-year degrees as qualified for most positions, and will create a hard cap for promotions.  Fair or not, it just will not be treated equally.  I personally want to see that you understand WHY something should be done a certain way, and not just how to do it.  There ARE a lot of people with an "IT as a trade" mentality, but I will neither hire them nor keep them on my team if inherited.

 

IT is not at all limiting.  It pays just as well or better than classic software engineering, though I personally hold a higher regard for the software engineer.  I think the market has it backwards, but that's how the market plays out right now.  Growth in IT is still extremely strong -- "3 of the top 10 fields" strong.  Mind you, various computing requirements probably make up 6 or 7 of those top 10 fields.  We struggle to find well-qualified individuals now, just as much as we did 20 years ago.  That trend is not going to end soon.  If you are good, you will have your choice of opportunities.

 

Information theory / data science (information systems is a pseudonym for information technology) is VERY heavy in mathematics.  You are best off with a doctorate here, but it is an extremely hot field.  This is the world of "big data," Google, Yahoo, predictive analytics, hadoop, and so on -- cutting-edge stuff.  If you want to get into the R&D side of cybersecurity, it also is heading in this direction, but that is not currently applicable to implementation and support. [side note: data science is one of the areas my team is responsible for in our company, so a personal fave]

 

Outsourcing is not likely to impact security as it does software development.  Companies are offshoring development these days because offshoring is cheap -- we can get 6 developers overseas for the cost of one locally, and we can't get qualified candidates locally.  So, those candidates we can find become leads, architects, and coordinators, and do little of the "grunt work."  For security, the financial risk of exposure is far too great to measure in terms of individual salaries.  A good security analyst is well-paid for a reason.  The demand for cyber security analysts is about to skyrocket.  No company can afford to be the next Target, Home Depot, or Sony when it comes to data security.  I would have no fear of security being outsourced or automated just yet.

To the OP, I think the path you are exploring is an exciting one bursting with opportunity.  This is something I and PP most certainly agree on.  :)

[ktgrok]

Some other thoughts about security....the department isn't well liked in the company, many times. People like my husband, personally, but getting things done can be an uphill battle because often he is asking people to do things that add time to their day, or make their lives slightly more difficult, in the name of security. It's important to do these things, but for many people in the company they don't understand the importance. So that's frustrating sometimes. 

 

Also, it can be a stressful job, because honestly, having an event (like hacking, etc) isn't a matter of if, it's a matter of when. He knows that, the other people in the department know it, but the CEO of the company may not understand that, and so there is the worry of losing your job, or having your name linked, to a security breach. But mostly, it's an exciting field. My husband just found out he will be speaking at a security conference locally this spring! 

[Mike in SA]

Some other thoughts about security....the department isn't well liked in the company, many times. People like my husband, personally, but getting things done can be an uphill battle because often he is asking people to do things that add time to their day, or make their lives slightly more difficult, in the name of security. It's important to do these things, but for many people in the company they don't understand the importance. So that's frustrating sometimes. 

 

Also, it can be a stressful job, because honestly, having an event (like hacking, etc) isn't a matter of if, it's a matter of when. He knows that, the other people in the department know it, but the CEO of the company may not understand that, and so there is the worry of losing your job, or having your name linked, to a security breach. But mostly, it's an exciting field. My husband just found out he will be speaking at a security conference locally this spring! 

 

This, I understand.  It can be difficult to educate management appropriately, so they understand why controls have to be so strict.  Hopefully, he can keep the "when" to a minimal exposure -- it's no fun when a board member starts hunting for scapegoats!

 

Thankfully, the board members themselves are beginning to be held to a higher level of scrutiny.