Obedience, resistance, compliance...

[maize]

I was trying to figure out a how to make a poll out of this, but couldn't decide on questions/answers.

 

I've been thinking about the whole idea of teaching obedience and establishing consequences. I struggle somewhat with this as a parent because I was the kind of child who didn't respond well to consequences and pressure to obey. The more I was pushed, the more I resisted. My mom was seriously worried that I was just going to grow up not believing in consequences for my actions and get into lots of trouble. Because I had such a strong aversion to being told what to do, I really don't like to tell others what to do.

 

As an adult, I don't really have a problem with general societal rules and consequences--i.e., I know if I choose to speed on the highway I may get a ticket. That feels different to me somehow than the obedience that was expected when I was a child. Obedience to adult authority--parents, teachers, etc.--tended to feel very arbitrary and like an unfair imposition on my personal autonomy. That need to maintain autonomy was at the root of my non-compliance.

 

Now that I am a parent I can see the other side of the coin, which is  mostly that children don't see the big picture and if they don't follow instructions it can throw a wrench in the smooth functioning of a family/school/etc. If we need to be someplace in twenty minutes and one child is refusing to put their coat and shoes on, that causes real problems. If a child refuses to do their share of family chores (washing dishes, folding clothes etc.) that places an unfair burden on everyone else.

 

I'm not really asking for advice now, I'm more curious to get the perspective of other adults on their own experience as children. It seems that some children naturally want to comply, maybe to keep adults happy with them or because they just have a strong need to follow rules. Some don't seem to have strong feelings one way or another, they will obey if there is sufficient incentive (positive or negative). And some are more like me, feeling a need to resist outside compulsion almost as a matter of principle. My husband was on the compliant side, and he has a really hard time understanding those of our children who take more after me in this respect. I, on the other hand, have a very hard time understanding why a child would ever want to comply and mostly work on the assumption that they won't  :tongue_smilie:

[EndOfOrdinary]

I am totally like you in an absolute aversion to obedience.  I like to know why.  Then, I like to be able to determine if that is logical.  I do not like pushed.  I do not like to just follow because I am supposed to.  This is how I parent as well.

 

When my son hit around 7, the level of wrenches into the smooth functioning grew larger and larger.  We developed the phrase, "This is bigger than you."  That meant, "please just listen and follow directions right now.  I will explain later whatever you would like to hear and we can talk about it."

 

Now that Ds desires more independence, and has begun doing things like going to the library or neighbor's by himself, we have run into a few instances where he just didn't know what was supposed to be done.  I have never parented like that, why would he?  There were multiple discussions about how society requires following certain norms.  The norms became like memory work.  He would get two or three a week.  By the time he had about 12 norms, he no longer had complication.

[Corraleno]

I'm like you, and my mother was the type that expected immediate, unquestioning obedience — "If I say jump, the only question you can ask is 'how high'?" That did not go well.  :tongue_smilie:

 

To me "obedience" implies obeying orders even if there's no rational reason for them, just because someone is bigger/older/higher status than someone else, and it seems inherently disrespectful to me. There may be a genuine need for that in the military, but I find it unnecessary in a family environment. Sure toddlers need to know not to run in the street, but "drop what you're doing and make your bed this minute or suffer the consequences"? Not so much. IMO, that's really more about establishing and maintaining parental power and control than it is about raising healthy children.

 

I try to focus on encouraging and enabling cooperation rather than demanding obedience. If we need to be out of the house at a certain time, then I try to set the kids up for success by helping them get things ready the night before, helping them develop habits like always keeping their shoes/phone/keys/sports equipment/whatever in the same place, making sure the slow-moving ADD kid gets up early enough that he has plenty of time to wake up instead of having to rush around in a panic. 

My kids respect me because I respect them, not because I demand that they obey me. My mother's demands that we show "respect" by following orders and never questioning her did not achieve the result she wanted — only one of 5 kids has any real relationship with her, and that sibling is pretty squashed and unhappy.

 

[Garga]

I followed the rules as a kid, but I always felt it was because I could see the big picture. Of course, I have no clue if that was true when I was a toddler, but from when I can really remember (like at age 9 on), I just "got" it that there were rules to make things run smoothly. The kids who gave the teacher a hard time at school just seemed dumb to me. Why couldn't they get it that things ran so much more smoothly when they followed the rules?

 

My parents did not make up arbitrary rules. They were reasonable and laid back people. I trusted them and saw no reason to buck against them. If they had been mean or unreasonable or emotional people I may have reacted differently. But they were sensible and their rules made sense to me.

 

When I run into a rule that doesn't make sense, *that* drives me crazy and I want to buck against it. I try to avoid those situations whenever possible. I don't remember running into them very often as a kid. A few times, yes, but not very often.

 

ETA: My parents never used the word "obey" to me. If I felt they were on a power trip, I'd have rebelled. They were just cool and laid back and it wasn't a big deal that there were rules in our home to be followed. We all followed them together. We were a team.

[VeteranMom]

I was heavily controlled as a child.  The household was hard to predict, since there were only extremes- extreme control on one side and extreme neglect on the other side.  I lived in a home where it was "do as I say, not as I do" and the consequences were typically way too severe for the offense.  Everything was an over-reaction and there were no choices.  If I wanted to have a choice, I had to sneak around and fly under the radar.  I really am trying to give my kids choices as they get older and see the natural consequences to their actions.  I'm trying to allow for more and more decisions and responsibilities as they get older.  I struggle with being too lenient at times, but I am always working on finding a good balance.  For the chores, I assign rooms and when I say it's time to clean they all know what they are supposed to be doing.  With each kid being assigned a room, it's pretty evident when one kid slacked on his/her chore.          

[Garga]

Ok--I posted above and now that I've read some of the posts posted at the same time as I, I'm seeing that you guys had a different childhood than I had.

 

My parents did not expect me to "respect" and "obey" them. They did not lord their adulthood over me. We really were a team. We were family. There was love and respect BOTH ways. They respected me. They listened to me. They did not yell or coerce.

 

Wow, was I lucky! I sometimes shake my head at how good they were to me when I read about how messed up other people's parents were.

 

So, OP, this might be a difficult question. There are many factors. I "obeyed" my parents because they were reasonable and kind people and set me up for success and helped me to "obey." No barking of orders. No "consequences". Just kindness and respect from them. It's easy to follow the rules when everyone is working together to help things run smoothly as a team.

[bolt.]

I was very VERY counter-authority as a child.

 

As a parent, I'm fine with the idea that following instructions helps life fun smoothly. I'm OK with giving orders, but I tend to expect resistance, so I have strategies for coordinating goodwill (when possible) rather than just enforcing a battle of the wills.

 

My kids tend to cooperate almost all of the time.

[Mergath]

I expect dd to follow the rules, but we only have a handful of them and there are good reasons for all of them, which dd is well aware of. She does what I ask her to because she's learned that I always have a good reason and don't arbitrarily boss her around because I can. My parents were like that, making me obey everything that came out of their mouths, and it sucked.

[maize]

 My parents were like that, making me obey everything that came out of their mouths, and it sucked.

 

You say it sucked, but did you obey? If so, why? 

[Corraleno]

You say it sucked, but did you obey? If so, why? 

 

Well, I can answer this question for me — I obeyed because I would get beat if I didn't. However, if I thought there was a reasonable chance of not getting caught if I disobeyed (like going to a friend's house when I'd been told not to, for no reason other than "I'm your mother and I said so"), I generally took it. I would usually only get hit once a day, even if I disobeyed more than that, so sometimes I just figured well I'm going to get beat anyway for X, so I might as well do Y and Z!

 

My mother had (and still has) NO IDEA of some of the things I got up to as a teen. Some were quite dangerous (like hitchhiking alone at 13 or 14 if I wanted to go somewhere and my mother wouldn't take me or even let me ride my bike there), and I probably wouldn't have done those things if she'd been more open and reasonable. But when the "rules" all seem so completely random and pointless and arbitrary, it's hard for a kid to distinguish which ones might actually be sensible.

 

[Guest]

m not really asking for advice now, I'm more curious to get the perspective of other adults on their own experience as children. It seems that some children naturally want to comply, maybe to keep adults happy with them or because they just have a strong need to follow rules. Some don't seem to have strong feelings one way or another, they will obey if there is sufficient incentive (positive or negative). And some are more like me, feeling a need to resist outside compulsion almost as a matter of principle. My husband was on the compliant side, and he has a really hard time understanding those of our children who take more after me in this respect. I, on the other hand, have a very hard time understanding why a child would ever want to comply and mostly work on the assumption that they won't

Out of my three children I have one of each type you just outlined: one is very rule-driven, one is incentive driven, one marches to an individual drum. FTR, in the parents, i am compliant, DH is rule-resistent.

 

My overall view is to have a strong bond of love and mutual respect with each child. In this model, "obedience" is not an important goal, so "compliance" is not an important trait. I grant you that the younger a child we're talking about, the more there will be "obedience" needs, if only because the parents rightly oversee the use of time, resources, etc., making it necessary for the kids to go along with the program. However, as they age, I want/wanted them to make decisions with my *Guidance*, not my insistence.

 

With the rule-resistant kid (and even with my DH), the key is to frame options in such a way that the resister sees the benefit of the idea and adopts it as his or her own. It is best for me not to be overly emotional or too attached to the decision. So if I say, "OMG! We just HAVE to replace this God-Awful carpeting as soon as possible!" Dh will naturally seek ways to NOT GET NEW CARPETING! I seriously just think it's his contrary nature. But if I mention in an off-hand way, "You know, this carpet is looking more worn than I would have expected at this point. It's a shame things don't last like one expects," I swear, the carpet will start to bother HIM. It becomes HIS idea to have it replaced, KWIM?

 

this type of framing seems to work best with my rule resister, too, along with heaps of respectful attention.

[Guest]

ETA: My parents never used the word "obey" to me. If I felt they were on a power trip, I'd have rebelled. They were just cool and laid back and it wasn't a big deal that there were rules in our home to be followed. We all followed them together. We were a team.

This! This is what I try to do in our home. :)

[Amira]

My parents weren't really into obedience and I don't like the word or the concept either, but I was a compliant child (but I outgrew that). Looking back, I'd say that they wanted respect on both sides of the relationship.

 

I am not all interested in obedience from my children and I have never used that word with them. One of our children in particular would have a hard time with obedience. I think it's important for children to understand why parents need their cooperation for a family to work well.

[Mergath]

You say it sucked, but did you obey? If so, why?

Nope.

[kiwik]

My parents were quite reasonable but I was scared of physical punishment both at home and school so I was both timid and complaint except when I lost my temper. I also hate people being angry at me or each other (possible a divorce thing) and feel physically sick until they forgive me (even if they were at fault). And I always hated the 'respect them because ...' I respect people who behave in a manner that deserves respect. I don't expect immediate obediance or compliance but I do expect co-opetation.

 

I have noticed though that sometimes I just want them to do something because I want them to and sometimes I say that.

[wendyroo]

I grant you that the younger a child we're talking about, the more there will be "obedience" needs, if only because the parents rightly oversee the use of time, resources, etc., making it necessary for the kids to go along with the program. However, as they age, I want/wanted them to make decisions with my *Guidance*, not my insistence.

 

 

I have three small children, and this is my view. I just cannot rely on cooperation or buy in when dealing with important stuff. If the baby has to go to the doctor then we all WILL be leaving at the right time no matter what the other small people think about that plan. Yes, I set them up for success. Yes, I talk about why we have to go. But, yes, I will (gently and calmly) physically force the toddler into his car seat and buckle him in as he screams and kicks if that is what is required to get us out the door.

 

My oldest has autism, so at their current ages (1, 3, 5) none of my boys sees the big picture...or even really the logistics of the small picture. Both my older boys are still at the stage where they will throw a tantrum that they don't want to get in the car to go to the library, and if I let then go back to playing then an hour later at lunch time they tantrum again because why didn't we get to go to the library?!?!?

 

I have faith that they will grow into kind, compassionate people who make decisions based on respect and fairness and the big picture. First, however, I'm just hoping they grow into rational people who understand that if you want to go to the library you have to be willing to, in fact, go to the library. Once they seem to have a firmer grasp on cause and effect and are competently handling the decisions that are currently within their sphere, then DH and I will start allowing them more input and autonomy with respect to more important matters. Until then, we are the benevolent dictators, and we will enforce and ensure compliance with whatever rules we deem necessary.

 

Wendy

[lllll]

..

[Joanne]

By the time I came along, I think my parents were tired and my mom was sober (she sobered up when I was 2) but untreated depression. My dad later developed a gambling addiction.

 

My growing up home was basically benign neglect with intermittent arbitrary punishment. I don't remember "discipline" when I was young but I do remember some tween/teen times with various levels of grounding. Each and every time the punishment had nothing to do with the "offense" and did nothing to improve my behavior - only provided fodder for anger and resentment.

 

And never touched the areas that I really did need help and direction.

 

Academically, I accepted the consequences associated with my engagement with high school. My grades reflected my action - not caring, being stoned but having enough academic intelligence to pass anyway but ultimately falling short of competitive schools and scholarships. In college, I thrived academically even with progressive substance abuse.

 

With my kids, I avoid unrelated, arbitrary punishment. Professionally, I've come to see "punishment" and much of discipline to be what parents do (culturally expected) while the child matures out of that developmental phase. I truly  believe a LOT of is suggested and written about make it look like we are doing something when, in reality, the child's age is simply apparent. I think much of what we discipline/punish for will be eliminated on the same time from regardless.

 

 

[kiwik]

As a follow on to above a lot of toddler training techniques seem designed to teach, with great stress, what would happen naturally in a few months anyway. This especially applies to sleep training from my experience anyway.

[Pam in CT]

I'm sadly out of likes, but...

 

 

 

In terms of kids who aren't naturally compliant throwing a wrench into the smooth functioning of a household - I guess I value the child over the smooth functioning of the household. I don't believe my low-compliance child just wants to make my life difficult, though it can feel that way. I do believe she has genuine reasons for her feelings and actions. Just because two of mine are 'easy' doesn't mean they get to be the standard of 'good kid'. My low-compliance kid is a good kid too. 

 

I try to check in with myself that I am modelling respect and co-operation to her. Often, when we clash, or there's a spanner in the works, I'm the one who set the tone. A low-compliance kid can be great at holding up a mirror, kwim ? They can sniff out hypocrisy or stupidity or inflexibility or pointlessness a mile away. 

I like this, and

 

:iagree:

 

I was this kid, and now I have one. It can be extremely tempting to try to force cooperation and compliance, but I know that doesn't work and is a bad idea. She's this way because she cares about fairness, not because she wants to make life hard for others. The same qualities that can be hard to deal with for a parent make a person able to make awesome contributions to the world. I try to remember that when I am really irritated. 

I truly, truly, believe the bolded.

 

There are circumstances -- the military is one -- where relationships of power and obedience are necessary...

 

... but within a family, I'm going for "cooperation," not "obedience."  And if we take the time, (NT) children can understand the need for cooperation at rather young ages.

 

 

(This also varies so much by age -- yes, a toddler running into traffic does need to learn and respond to the Serious Voice -- and temperament.  If God had only sent me children with dispositions like my eldest's and youngest's, I'd have oh-so-many-parenting theories.  Fortunately, I got my middle one as well.)

[Paige]

I hate being told what to do and always have. I've never rebelled out of principal however, and was a fairly compliant child. I believe that I naturally wanted to do what was expected most of the time and my desire to do what I wanted was stronger than my hatred for being told what to do. It was a happy coincidence that my wishes were usually the same as those around me. If I wanted to do something other than what was expected, I would find a way and do my best to make it so that I either didn't get caught or convinced my parents to let me. Honestly, I think that *most* people who have no trouble following the rules have little desire to break them in the first place- they didn't need the rules!-and that consequences and coercion make very little difference in most people's actions or feelings. 

 

 

[maize]

We are very much like Wendy. Obedience is a big thing in this house and a good thing, I'd say, even to the kids. They get that we do it and why (for the most part, some things are unquestioned but most of the rules and such are logical and we explain them to our kids as we teach them).

 

But as they get older we are needing less 'obeying' and more diligence, guidance, reminding, etc. They're compliant, generally cheerful children who throw a bit of laziness or attitude - that gets corrected as we see it, but doesn't require a police state or iron fist! And the older they get the more freedom and trust they earn from us, especially on basic household tasks. The issue with a ten or twelve year old might become timeliness or respectful speaking to an adult, not 'obedience' or 'compliance'. And our goal is to give them more agency and leeway as they age, unless they show they cannot handle it.

 

But that is all built on a foundation now, and setting that foundation requires more rote and reinforcement now to be more hands off later. Setting expectations and a stable world for them to function in is very important. And order and obedience to mommy and daddy are a crucial part of that. I'd say we are already starting to see the payoff of that consistency with the older kids, but it can make us feel a bit like the guys-who-always-say-no in the meantime!

What would you do if you got a kid who wouldn't comply, one who viewed every exercise of parental authority as a personal affront and who did not respond to correction?

 

I've heard and read so many "if you just do things this way and are consistent the kids will comply" recommendations, but best I can tell those only work with kids who are reasonably compliant to start with.

[Pam in CT]

...

 

I've heard and read so many "if you just do things this way and are consistent the kids will comply" recommendations, but best I can tell those only work with kids who are reasonably compliant to start with.

 

:lol: Indeed.

 

I don't think there's a book that if only we follow the recipe just so, the kids will turn out __________.  Exasperatingly, they actually do seem to have agency and autonomy all.their.own.

[*Lulu*]

What would you do if you got a kid who wouldn't comply, one who viewed every exercise of parental authority as a personal affront and who did not respond to correction?

 

I've heard and read so many "if you just do things this way and are consistent the kids will comply" recommendations, but best I can tell those only work with kids who are reasonably compliant to start with.

Having been blessed with three very compliance resistant dears, I giggled at your quote.

 

It is more like practicing music.

 

People say "practice makes perfect" with a little smile as though they are so flippin' wise. They are not.

 

"Perfect practice makes perfect"; if you practice a section playing a D when an E is the proper note you will put that D in your muscle memory. The more you practice with the wrong note the more it becomes ingrained in your memory.

 

Consistency is critical to parenting, IMHO, but positive results come from consistently doing what works for your family dynamic and your child's personality.

 

Sending my DD to her room may buy me a few minutes of peace, (if she goes without a fight), but it does nothing to head off the issues that set her off in the first place. I can send her to her room as consistently as humanly possible. And she will sit there fuming at the perceived injustice. She'll come out every time as hacked off as she went in.

 

Consistency alone with a strong willed child fulfills the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

[ebunny]

I agree completely that sometimes (often?) children don't have the life experience to see the big picture.

 

I was a compliant obedient child and a rebellious teen. This was not a reaction to parenting, but as a development of my own self. I needed to feel in control of almost all aspects of my life as a teen; sometimes leading to disastrous consequences. In hindsight, maybe I should have been a little more obedient. I now know that my parents had my best interests at heart. But, it took being a parent myself to understand my parents, iykwim.

 

My daughter's innate nature is to circumvent, confuse and frustrate authority figures. :001_smile:

 

I don't expect immediate obedience and/or compliance from my DD, but I do expect that she will cooperate if the rules are mutually beneficial and fair. I state my reasons for the very few non-negotiables in my house. If she agrees to them and can understand the need for those boundaries..well...great.

If she disagrees, she is still expected to follow them. But she can argue her case or rant/vent. Renegotiating boundaries in every other aspect (except one or two) of her life is always encouraged.

 

The only one thing I keep in mind is to reduce the power play between us to a minimum. An adult is, by default, more powerful than a child. She has to understand that not all adults in life will treat her with mutual respect, and she has to develop skills to deal with those adults.

 

 

[Corraleno]

We are very much like Wendy. Obedience is a big thing in this house and a good thing, I'd say, even to the kids. They get that we do it and why (for the most part, some things are unquestioned but most of the rules and such are logical and we explain them to our kids as we teach them).

 

But as they get older we are needing less 'obeying' and more diligence, guidance, reminding, etc. They're compliant, generally cheerful children who throw a bit of laziness or attitude - that gets corrected as we see it, but doesn't require a police state or iron fist! And the older they get the more freedom and trust they earn from us, especially on basic household tasks. The issue with a ten or twelve year old might become timeliness or respectful speaking to an adult, not 'obedience' or 'compliance'. And our goal is to give them more agency and leeway as they age, unless they show they cannot handle it.

 

But that is all built on a foundation now, and setting that foundation requires more rote and reinforcement now to be more hands off later. Setting expectations and a stable world for them to function in is very important. And order and obedience to mommy and daddy are a crucial part of that. I'd say we are already starting to see the payoff of that consistency with the older kids, but it can make us feel a bit like the guys-who-always-say-no in the meantime!

 

And yet some parents get equally good results without having to demand obedience to mommy & daddy, or be the guys-who-always-say-no. If making obedience a "big thing in your house" works for your family, that's great, but that's not the only way to get positive results. And for some types of kids, it will just flat out not work. Ask my mother.  ;)

 

[Paige]

This may be a worldview difference, but obeying and honoring parents is a biblical command we take seriously. The way we go about doing that varies with each child as best suits their personality and needs, but flat out dispensing with it isn't something my husband and I have as an option.

 

 

Not to get into a theological debate, but the command to obey parents is to the child, and it is not a command to parents to enforce obedience onto the child. 

[SemiSweet]

I have one compliant child and one strong willed, everything is a fight child, and one undetermined so far. I absolutely abhor the word obedience. I seek cooperation in the home and try to set my little people up for success. There are things we have to do though, and I will make them do it. Everyone does chores because we all live here, I'm not the maid. Sometimes I am more heavy handed than others but I try to always be fair and reasonable. I try not to say no for no reason, and will change my mind when I notice myself doing it.

 

My goal is to raise freethinking, well adjusted adults and I don't think that happens well for children who are forced to obey at all times. My mother was raised in a home like that and she has had a horribly rocky relationship with her mother because of it. Obedience is never worth a damaged relationship, though I admit I definitely struggle with my strong willed one.

[blondeviolin]

I have the whole spectrum.

 

One child is so non-compliant/resistant/stubborn he will do the exact opposite of whatever asked just to make a point, regardless of consequence. This particular child is always changing and giving us new challenges. About once every three months I call my mother to complain, cry, and get reassurance that I am a good mom. Lol. While I don't require obedience because I said so, and I usually explain motives or the big picture, it doesn't mean he will agree with me or that he will even see the big picture. Obviously natural consequences work best, but he still fights against it. He wants to be the controller of it all.

 

We have another who obeys out of desire to please. When she is inclined to disobey/argue (very rare), explaining why is usually enough to satisfy.

 

Yet another who wants to please, but any kind of consequence means I hate her and she is treated so poorly. (Actual scenario from tonight: She spilled her cup of water because she was leaning on the table after I asked her not to. She had it wipe it up and cried for the next five minutes about how I don't understand her and I'm so mean.)

 

Two are yet to be determined, but I'm inclined to say be one will compliant...I'm not sure about the toddler.

 

I was a compliant child. I'm not sure about my husband. He grew up in a home that expected complete obedience. As a child, he obeyed, I suspect, but he also rebelled secretly when he could. He has a hard time with appropriate expectations and consequences, but he's learned quickly.

[Joyofsixreboot]

 

I don't think corporal punishment made me respect my parents. It just made me fear them. With my own kids, natural consequences seem to work best. I try to let the chips fall where they may as long as it doesn't negatively impact the whole group.

I try to let the chips fall too. I say things like " we are leaving in 20 minutes if you're not ready you'll have to stay here, go without shoes, miss the party, whatever. I (short of health) try never to " rescue" them. I try to explain why and give the bigger picture. I still, as an adult, have a knee jerk, dig in my heels reaction to being told things. If I see a stay off the grass sign guess what I do. ;) among my 7 I have a complete array of personalities but my #4 is most like me.

[DawnM]

This would never work with my Aspie, he would gladly stay home and not go to just about everything!

 

I try to let the chips fall too. I say things like " we are leaving in 20 minutes if you're not ready you'll have to stay here, go without shoes, miss the party, whatever. I (short of health) try never to " rescue" them. I try to explain why and give the bigger picture. I still, as an adult, have a knee jerk, dig in my heels reaction to being told things. If I see a stay off the grass sign guess what I do. ;) among my 7 I have a complete array of personalities but my #4 is most like me.

 

[DawnM]

My two neurotypical kids are fairly compliant and don't talk back or disobey, and we don't use the word obedience.

 

 

My Aspie has been a huge challenge for us and I am still not sure how to parent him best.

[Joyofsixreboot]

This would never work with my Aspie, he would gladly stay home and not go to just about everything!

My Aspie usually does. He is very rule based though. Rigidly. So luckily if it's a rule he will comply. And heaven help us if we vary.

[DawnM]

I think his is mostly due to depression and frustration.  And his own rules in his own head that don't work for the rest of us!

 

But we aren't that rule driven or scheduled, so I could be making the problem worse.  

 

I just can't run my house like a school.....if I do that, we may as well all just go to school/work and be done with it.

 

My Aspie usually does. He is very rule based though. Rigidly. So luckily if it's a rule he will comply. And heaven help us if we vary.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

My parents were pretty much middle of the road.  Not too authoritative, but not extremely permissive.  I was very compliant as a child.  I rarely gave them a hard time.  Fast forward to now and I'm probably more permissive, but I think that is based on the differences in circumstances.  For example, since we homeschool, my kids don't need to be in bed early to start their day early. 

 

But lest anyone think my parents just had it all figured out perfectly, my sibling was not compliant at all.  She gave my parents one hell of a time.  However, she had mental health issues (so did my parents).  So that really was probably the reason.

 

Interestingly my parents both came from excessively authoritative homes where it was typical to be hit for tiny infractions.  They'd probably not get away with that today as it would be considered abuse.  Maybe times were different then.  I have no clue. 

 

I feel like schools have gotten a bit ridiculous with their rules.  I understand sometimes they need too many rules in the hopes things run smoothly, but the whole zero tolerance thing is ridiculous.  And when you hear of kindergarteners getting suspended you just have to shake your head.  This has been a total non issue for us though since we homeschool. 

 

Both of my kids are compliant most of the time, but honestly I don't have a ton of rules.  I only make rules when it becomes necessary.  For example, they don't have bedtimes.  And that's fine and dandy, but not when they are making a racket at 11pm.  So the rule is you don't have to go to bed, but you cannot make a racket past 9.  The other rule that came out of it is if you aren't awake enough to do school work you need me to impose a bedtime.  That cleared up that problem pretty much immediately.  One day ds fell asleep while I was reading to him.  LOL 

 

I guess overall I want to live in a peaceful environment.  I don't want to scream all day.  I don't want my kids to be in a perpetual state of punishment.  I've seen that in some families and really I don't know how people can stand that.  I also see my kids as people and not dogs that need to be trained to be obedient.  I never use the term obedient when referring to my kids. 

 

 

 

 

[maize]

Parenting is complicated, isn't it?

 

If you were a compliant, rule-following child, and you have at least one non-compliant, dig-in-their-heels child, what has helped you understand that child? For me, I can see the reaction coming from a mile away--and I mostly avoid interactions that I know will set off resistance-on-principle. Dh can't seem to see when his attitudes and actions are going to push a child into that zone, and he is frustrated beyond belief when it happens. He really struggles to know how to parent our less compliant kids and worries (just as my mom did) that if they don't learn to obey and follow rules now they are going to grow up to be out of control adults who end up in jail. I've pointed out numerous times that I didn't turn out that way...

 

I mostly worry that will undermine his own relationship with the children by getting into pointless power struggles. Though maybe I am worrying unnecessarily--in spite of many clashes, I actually had a good relationship with my mom throughout my growing up years. My lack of obedience had nothing to do with a lack of personal respect for her; I knew she loved me very much and was sincerely trying to help me be better. My dad was a much rockier situation, mostly because I didn't have a lot of one-on-one interactions with him except when I was in trouble and he blew his top. My husband spends a lot more time interacting with the kids outside of disciplinary type situations, which probably helps build an overall better relationship.

[lllll]

..

[OneStepAtATime]

Parenting is complicated, isn't it?

 

If you were a compliant, rule-following child, and you have at least one non-compliant, dig-in-their-heels child, what has helped you understand that child? For me, I can see the reaction coming from a mile away--and I mostly avoid interactions that I know will set off resistance-on-principle. Dh can't seem to see when his attitudes and actions are going to push a child into that zone, and he is frustrated beyond belief when it happens. He really struggles to know how to parent our less compliant kids and worries (just as my mom did) that if they don't learn to obey and follow rules now they are going to grow up to be out of control adults who end up in jail. I've pointed out numerous times that I didn't turn out that way...

 

I mostly worry that will undermine his own relationship with the children by getting into pointless power struggles. Though maybe I am worrying unnecessarily--in spite of many clashes, I actually had a good relationship with my mom throughout my growing up years. My lack of obedience had nothing to do with a lack of personal respect for her; I knew she loved me very much and was sincerely trying to help me be better. My dad was a much rockier situation, mostly because I didn't have a lot of one-on-one interactions with him except when I was in trouble and he blew his top. My husband spends a lot more time interacting with the kids outside of disciplinary type situations, which probably helps build an overall better relationship.

My DH has the same issues.  He wants blind obedience because he fears those same things.  They will end up in jail or on drugs if they don't follow all the rules without question.

 

But rules need to make sense. The pointless power struggles over arbitrarily, sometimes irrationally, assigned and inconsistently enforced rules he has created over the years has definitely damaged his relationship with our kids.  They don't trust him to be reasonable, rational and fair so when he asks them to do something they doubt that what he is asking has any real usefulness/meaning/point...then he gets defensive and feels they are challenging his authority.  What they are challenging is his ability to be consistent, rational and think through situations clearly.  

 

If on one day you say that everyone must eat everything on their plate (which is not a healthy response to begin with IMHO) whether the portion sizes were correct for that particular person or not, and get angry when they don't, then turn around yourself and refuse to eat everything on your plate because there is too much there to eat, the person you were yelling at for not eating everything on their plate is going to stop listening to you, KWIM?  

 

I have two vastly different children.  One prefers rules, hates conflict and tends to be more compliant.  One has never been compliant, not since birth.   :)  The more rules were imposed, the harder it was to parent her.  But she is definitely reasonable.  As a teenager she is actually much easier to parent now because she can see the rational side of why things need to be done and done a certain way.  However, she is also far more likely to stand her ground if she feels strongly that she is being told to do something that makes no rational sense.  She cannot be bullied into things.  And she will question why.  If you can give her a reasonable explanation, or she trusts you enough that when you say she just needs to do it and an explanation will be forthcoming later, there are usually no issues.  If you are not someone she trusts to make good decisions, or she finds what she is being asked to do to be wrong in some way, she becomes a rather immovable rock.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Parenting is complicated, isn't it?

 

If you were a compliant, rule-following child, and you have at least one non-compliant, dig-in-their-heels child, what has helped you understand that child? For me, I can see the reaction coming from a mile away--and I mostly avoid interactions that I know will set off resistance-on-principle. Dh can't seem to see when his attitudes and actions are going to push a child into that zone, and he is frustrated beyond belief when it happens. He really struggles to know how to parent our less compliant kids and worries (just as my mom did) that if they don't learn to obey and follow rules now they are going to grow up to be out of control adults who end up in jail. I've pointed out numerous times that I didn't turn out that way...

 

I mostly worry that will undermine his own relationship with the children by getting into pointless power struggles. Though maybe I am worrying unnecessarily--in spite of many clashes, I actually had a good relationship with my mom throughout my growing up years. My lack of obedience had nothing to do with a lack of personal respect for her; I knew she loved me very much and was sincerely trying to help me be better. My dad was a much rockier situation, mostly because I didn't have a lot of one-on-one interactions with him except when I was in trouble and he blew his top. My husband spends a lot more time interacting with the kids outside of disciplinary type situations, which probably helps build an overall better relationship.

 

I was compliant, but I asked why a lot.  Most of the time I didn't get an explanation.  That is one thing I do differently.  My older kid is a "why" kid.  He wants to know why about everything.  Since I'm also a why person I get him.  So I'll answer his why questions until I'm hoarse.  I think it drives DH crazy.  LOL  I just don't have the heart to tell him BECAUSE. 

 

That's one thing I don't do.  I don't engage in power struggles.  I never say stuff like "because you are the child and you are supposed to obey me".  I hate that.  Or if my kid lashes out because they are frustrated, that's not different to me than when I lash out out of frustration.  I tell them what they said wasn't nice, but I don't punish them for stuff like that because I see that as an attempt to tell them "I won puny human".  Most of the time I can see they are just frustrated. 

 

Then again I don't think I have some special parenting technique.  I react how I react because that is mostly just my personality.  So if someone does it a different way they do it a different way.  I think most of us worry we aren't doing it quite right.  I question those people who think they have it completely figured out because I don't think anyone does all the time.  KWIM? 

 

[creekland]

My hubby was an obedience raised child who naturally fit into that role.  I almost failed first grade due to not being able to get along with the teacher.

 

I'm not quite sure how we get along together, but we do.  ;)

 

For raising kids, it bothered him a ton that he didn't get to teach obedience, but I'm dominant enough in what I want that I won (most of the time).

 

We did spank (few regrets), but it was for willful disobedience that was also dangerous.

 

Otherwise, like many, I'm an "explain" and "work together as a team" person.  Why?  Because it's what would work for me.  

 

Interestingly enough, at school, I very rarely have trouble getting any student to work for me.  I like it that way!

 

And I'm still only compliant when I want to be.  If I don't care to do something (or see the reason to do it), I won't.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

And I'm still only compliant when I want to be.  If I don't care to do something (or see the reason to do it), I won't.

 

This is definitely me now.  I've become non compliant in my old age.  LOL  If I don't want to do something and see no good reason for it, I have no qualms telling someone to go stuff it.

 

Last week a woman yelled at my very compliant to a fault kid.  I made a big deal out of it because I think being too compliant is not good either.  She was wrong.  I think she was frustrated with the situation that had nothing to do with him and she took it out on him without thinking.  My parents never stuck up for me.  I stick up for my kids.  If my kid did wrong go ahead and yell at him.  But he didn't do anything wrong. 

[gardenmom5]

What would you do if you got a kid who wouldn't comply, one who viewed every exercise of parental authority as a personal affront and who did not respond to correction?

 

I've heard and read so many "if you just do things this way and are consistent the kids will comply" recommendations, but best I can tell those only work with kids who are reasonably compliant to start with.

ah.  sounds exactly like my aspie.  (and the eval team suggested he also had oppositional defiant disorder. and OCD.)   aspies (and related) do NOT respond to conventional wisdom of rewards etc.

 

I've been taking him to a Naturopath to get his brain/body chemistry to more "normal".  he had some serious deficiencies.  it's amazing the transformation in his personality.  meltdowns are rare . . . . (and usually due to being very overtired.)

 

he's like a different kid. 

 

eta: we don't encourage blind compliance.  1dd's bff called us all a family of alphas.  we're very opinionated.

[duckens]

I was raised with:
"Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child."  "Children are commanded to obey their parents, or they will not have a long life."

--I was a compliant child who was naturally a follower, wanted to be be good and helpful, and didn't want to be spanked.

--My parent's style of parenting was a poor fit for me.  There was no understanding for my sensitive pov.  I never saw my parents as people I could go to for help: whether it was needing food to eat (for school lunch), school supplies in the middle of the year, extra blankets for my bed (to be warm), or support and advocacy in the case of school bullying from students and a few bad teachers.  Even when I was physically harmed by others, my parents reinforced that it was my fault.

--My brother was definitely spanked the most, even beyond the age where it made a difference.  He was a very normal little boy. Looking back and knowing the statistical link between spanking and violence, it is not surprising how violent my brother was with me: giving me a couple of black eyes and a broken tooth when we were children.  He has been violent with his friends, and sometimes I fear for his wife, although my brother had no role model of domestic violence growing up.  My father was kind and gentle with my mother.

It's amazing that I'm not more messed up than I am.
-----------------------------------------
How I try to parent my children:

--I bristle at the idea of "obedience" (other than situations of immediate safety).  I like the idea of "listening" better.  And that means that the parents "listen" to the kids, too, and consider things from the kids' pov.  Also, I want my kids to be thinkers and freethinkers, and to question if something doesn't sound right.  I make mistakes and miss or forget things as a parent. 

--We set forth expectations, and our catch-phrases are, "What is your plan?" and "How can I help you to get done what you need to/want to?"

--Gratefulness:
"Thank you everyone for getting up and getting ready this morning.  We're running a little late, but we won't be too late."
"Thank you for sharing with your sister.  I appreciate how gracious you were about it.  You didn't have to do that, but I appreciate it."
"Thank you everyone for helping to clean the living room."
"I'm glad you came to me when you needed help.  It's my job to help you."

[SparklyUnicorn]

I was raised with:

"Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child."  "Children are commanded to obey their parents, or they will not have a long life."

 

 

This gives me the willies.  It sounds pretty hellish.